Bright Ancalagon Posted November 11, 2015 Share Posted November 11, 2015 Correct me If im wrong but Italy used basicly mercenary's armies for a few centuries from XIII to XVI. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hodor the Articulate Posted November 12, 2015 Share Posted November 12, 2015 Isn't SB being ridiculous kinda the point? Early on, we're told that, post-Doom of Valyria, the Ghiscari tried to recapture the glory of Old Ghis, but just ended up being really pathetic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Great and Mighty Poo Posted November 12, 2015 Share Posted November 12, 2015 Correct me If im wrong but Italy used basicly mercenary's armies for a few centuries from XIII to XVI. no you're right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Arthur Hightower Posted November 12, 2015 Share Posted November 12, 2015 New Ghis seems to be okay militarily IIRC, still technologically inferior to everyone else but there seem to have somewhat competent leadership and actually have proper heavy infantry. Though I'm not sure if they have been properly engaged yet in the sample chapters. At least with the Yunkai'i there is a force that the Ironborn can plausibly defeat on land. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihlus Posted November 12, 2015 Share Posted November 12, 2015 It's just really poor world building with extra Orientalism on top and double Westerosi/Valyrian supremacism on the side by the author. Should really be clear by now. From early readings of chapters from the Battle of Meereen it seems that even Dany's freedmen companies manage to smash through the actual proffesional troops on the Slaver's side during Barristan's breakout. The Unsullied, Dothraki, etc, are an idiotic concept in the way they are explained, but in universe they are considered top tier. Any relation to real world slave-soldiers, Steppe warriors, or any other force from our history is due to the "copy-paste" phase of GRRM's world building, not to the "now mix it up with generic fantasy tropes and my poor understanding of military history" phase, which ends up with the bad joke that is Slaver's Bay's show of force. They have the numbers alright, but it's such a farce that there is only fake drama left. No one actually thinks that Dany's Meereen has a chance to lose, not unless Barristan rolls a string of natural 20's.The Dothraki and Unsullied really aren't considered top-tier in-universe. In fact the Dothraki in particular are treated as mere nuisances at most. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nyrhex Posted November 12, 2015 Share Posted November 12, 2015 The Dothraki and Unsullied really aren't considered top-tier in-universe. In fact the Dothraki in particular are treated as mere nuisances at most.And the Unsullied are so easily watered down to "okay" household guards that they are now required to be sold in batches and kept with more restrictions than your average Apple device. It's still an in-universe claim that the Dothraki are the finest horsemen, the Unsullied are the finest infantry, the Ironborn the finest sailors, etc. Not all that different from real-life historical caims that end up as little more than propaganda in the proper histrical context a bunch of times, but still laughable when we actually see them on page trying to live up to the hype. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neolaina Posted November 12, 2015 Share Posted November 12, 2015 Correct me If im wrong but Italy used basicly mercenary's armies for a few centuries from XIII to XVI. And remember, Italy wasn't a unified country until the 1800s, so what you're referring to are the Italian City-States, the Papal States, and the Kingdom of Naples that often warred against each other, as well as against established countries. And even then, it was the condottieri who ended up holding the balance of power at their fingertips within the boundaries of Italy, winning and losing battles against other free companies that would benefit them the most.Mercenaries bein' mercenaries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Littlefinger's dagger Posted November 12, 2015 Share Posted November 12, 2015 No one actually thinks that Dany's Meereen has a chance to lose, not unless Barristan rolls a string of natural 20's.Barristan rolling a string of nat 20's would double the damage dice and bring it to an end that much sooner. You meant rolling 1, a critical failure. Depending on the edition rules and the DM, that could equate to friendly fire losses for Barristan's force. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted November 12, 2015 Share Posted November 12, 2015 History is full of examples of people taking military decisions that are inexplicably stupid, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AerionBrightflameII Posted November 12, 2015 Share Posted November 12, 2015 The Yunkai Army?The Yunkai Army is battling the Unsullied when the Windblown and the Second Sons suddenly turn and the Ironborn start pounding them from behind like a little dirty bitch....There is no Yunkai Army left...History is full of examples of people taking military decisions that are inexplicably stupid, True. The Yunkai are rich and spoiled they are suffering from years of Sloth and Gluttony, they will be cut down from every direction and slaughtered i cant wait for Vicky to just waste them already... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimim Posted November 12, 2015 Share Posted November 12, 2015 I swear i hope daenerys executes each and every one of these "wise" masters. The only decent one died of diesease. History is full of examples of people taking military decisions that are inexplicably stupid I think that these particular military decisions are beyond inexplicably stupid, in that every single general is making them, and making them to the point where it becomes cartoonish and grotesque. That, in turn, makes life easy for Dany. I think that faced with these people, the reader is supposed to think exactly what Abdallah says: Execute them all.Isn't it all designed to make it easy for Dany? She doesn't have to play the game. She doesn't have to deal with these people, if the answer is to just kill them all, and start from scratch. We already know she's not very good at playing the game, from Meereen. She has an easy alternative.No one else has that alternative. Take Greyjoys, not the nicest people on the Iron Islands, but still individualized, still with functioning brains, unlike the slavers. They're a good Westerosi parallel to the slavers, as they have their own kind of slavery, in thralls. Unlike the slavers, they're individualized, and not completely worthless: Victarion might be dumb as a rock, but he is also a capable admiral. Euron is probably a monster villain, but he's got a brain, he can get things done, and his mystery makes him fascinating. Asha is (imo) one of the best leaders on Westeros. Theon started out as an ass, a betrayer, but has gone through a redemption arc, and is now fully human and very likable (for me, anyway).So if, say, Tyrion goes up to them, and kills them all, his moral status would be dubious, to put it mildly.Same would not be true of Dany, if she does the same to the incompetent, completely evil, completely unindividualized slavers.I'm going to stick with GRRM goofed with Essos, and goofed with it for Dany. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGimletEye Posted November 12, 2015 Share Posted November 12, 2015 The Yunkish Army? It would be miracle if they could march and chew bubble gum at the same time without hurting themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sarah.jenice Posted November 12, 2015 Share Posted November 12, 2015 I'm ready for the whole SB plot to just be over. All of the people of that region were written to be too over the top bad. Unborn puppies is a delicacy. Enough said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Fauntleroy Posted November 12, 2015 Share Posted November 12, 2015 I think we're all pretty much in agreement. These guys are just cartoonishly "evil". Poor George, I wish he hadn't gotten himself stuck in this knot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AerionBrightflameII Posted November 12, 2015 Share Posted November 12, 2015 I think we're all pretty much in agreement. These guys are just cartoonishly "evil". Poor George, I wish he hadn't gotten himself stuck in this knot. These guys are a waste of writing time...Get. Her. To. Westeros.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WSmith84 Posted November 12, 2015 Share Posted November 12, 2015 I think that these particular military decisions are beyond inexplicably stupid, in that every single general is making them, and making them to the point where it becomes cartoonish and grotesque. That, in turn, makes life easy for Dany. I think that faced with these people, the reader is supposed to think exactly what Abdallah says: Execute them all.Isn't it all designed to make it easy for Dany? She doesn't have to play the game. She doesn't have to deal with these people, if the answer is to just kill them all, and start from scratch. We already know she's not very good at playing the game, from Meereen. She has an easy alternative.No one else has that alternative. Take Greyjoys, not the nicest people on the Iron Islands, but still individualized, still with functioning brains, unlike the slavers. They're a good Westerosi parallel to the slavers, as they have their own kind of slavery, in thralls. Unlike the slavers, they're individualized, and not completely worthless: Victarion might be dumb as a rock, but he is also a capable admiral. Euron is probably a monster villain, but he's got a brain, he can get things done, and his mystery makes him fascinating. Asha is (imo) one of the best leaders on Westeros. Theon started out as an ass, a betrayer, but has gone through a redemption arc, and is now fully human and very likable (for me, anyway).So if, say, Tyrion goes up to them, and kills them all, his moral status would be dubious, to put it mildly.Same would not be true of Dany, if she does the same to the incompetent, completely evil, completely unindividualized slavers.I'm going to stick with GRRM goofed with Essos, and goofed with it for Dany.Yeah. The only part of Essos that feels as organic as Westeros is Braavos. Slavers' Bay... would anyone really care if it was completely wiped off of the map? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pod The Rod Posted November 12, 2015 Share Posted November 12, 2015 I think all the Free Cities are intriguing. Volantis sounded quite interesting.But yeah, Slaver's Bay is just... I don't know. There's cartoonish characters in Westeros (the Sand Snakes). There's mentally handicapped and evil characters in Westeros (the Ironborn). But none of them feel like this, to the point where you can't take them seriously, where their defeat isn't going to seem glorious, like Planetos has been rid of a great evil. It's going to be like "Thank God, now maybe Dany can fight baddies who are credible". The Yunkish, the Astapori, the Sons of the Harpy... they're collectively the Jar-Jar Binks of ASOIAF. Nobody understands them, nobody likes them, nobody can comprehend what the author was thinking putting them in. When Dany sacks Volantis, it's going to mark the first time in her arc that she's beaten a worthy opponent that required effort and thought from her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nuncle Stark Posted November 12, 2015 Share Posted November 12, 2015 The Yunkai armies are a hilarious circus of variety and ineptitude. I love it! Haha. Want to see them go up against the Others as a ridiculous vangaurd force. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimim Posted November 12, 2015 Share Posted November 12, 2015 Yeah. The only part of Essos that feels as organic as Westeros is Braavos. Slavers' Bay... would anyone really care if it was completely wiped off of the map? Yes, the only part of Essos I care about is Braavos, which might as well be on Westeros. The rest of it could get wiped off the map, and I'd cheer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AerionBrightflameII Posted November 13, 2015 Share Posted November 13, 2015 Love the free cities, Braavos, Volantis, Lys, Myr and Tyrosh....i want to see more of them but i doubt we will.The Volantis Fleet is scattered in Westeros with the Golden Company, if Volantis falls it will be by Bennero's work and a slave uprising..Danys more worried about getting back Daario and getting back Daario.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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