The Morality of Uber

[Commodore]

when Bitcoin becomes ubiquitous, questions of morality will be legally irrelevant, as services like Uber will become decentralized and not controllable

Similar to what BitTorrent did to the piracy debate. The best the authorities can do is prosecute individual users, but there is no system or server to control or shutdown, no BitTorrent CEO to arrest. 

If/when Uber becomes an open source app with bitcoin as the transaction medium, the best authorities can do is run sting operations on individual users. And that is not politically tenable. 

Today the left can use regulatory capture to damage/destroy/ban Uber, because the state can control bank/credit card accounts and because Uber has a central point of failure. 

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Commodore,

What indications do you have that Bitcoin is actually on its way to becoming "ubiquitous"?

[Commodore]

Commodore,

What indications do you have that Bitcoin is actually on its way to becoming "ubiquitous"?

Because it fills an obvious need (uncensorable transactions, truly digital cash with no third party middleman). 

Of course, Esperanto was superior as well, but never attained a large enough network effect to be viable. That could happen to Bitcoin, but the fact that people are  willing to offer goods/services for an abstact digital token is a big hurdle Bitcoin has already overcome. 

[william marshal]

i've been involved i the transportation industry since 1986 in one form or an other. trucks, taxies, buses, ambulances, management, and uber. mostly in and around NYC. i' happy to give you an honest assessment of the industry as it manifests itself here including all the dirt. i'm willing to answer any questions you have. there is  lot of corruption all the way around including uber. i worked with uber for about 7 months and will never do so again, in fact i got so fed up that i left the industry.

two things i want to say up front, even though i'm a college grad i'm dyslexic and my grammar is not up to par. and while i'll try to keep responses brief there is a good chance they will be wordy, as there are a lot of gray areas.

[Dr. Pepper]

I drove for Uber for a short time.  I was new to a city, I wasn't working and I was bored.  I figured it would be a good way to get to know the roads and neighborhoods without paying for my own gas and also a way to pass the time.  I didn't need the money so I had the luxury of being unconcerned about how much I was paid, but in the back of my head it made me sick to think that most people who did this as their full time job would barely be bringing in minimum wage, and usually not even that when factoring in paying for car, maintenance, insurance and gas.

The one thing I hated about it is that the early Uber drivers and I suppose the company set the standards such that Uber drivers are expected to provide more than they can really afford.  Aside from the requirement of having a newer car that was very clean, I was expected to provide water and snacks, phone chargers, access to my car's bluetooth system and be an excellent conversationalist who could speak intelligently on all topics.  I ran into a couple of Uber drivers at an event and aside from pay, some of the biggest complaints was having to spend so much money to keep riders hydrated, fed and entertained which obviously cut even more into pay.  Uber is obviously very exploitative to drivers. 

For riders, though, Uber has been revolutionary.  In many places and definitely in my city and most American cities, taxis are completely unreliable, expensive, and often uncomfortable.  People can go to sporting events with expensive parking, areas where there is limited or no parking or out on the town for a night of drinking and know with certainty that Uber will be there and often within just a few minutes if they aren't already waiting.  

There is also a large portion of the population for whom Uber has had a tremendously positive effect.  Several riders revealed that they couldn't afford a car and relying solely on public transport limited their lives and movement so having access to a low cost car service improved quality of life in measurable ways.  I had a carseat so was able to pick up families with young children and they similarly expressed improvements in their lives due to access to a reliable car service.  

So my feelings on Uber are complicated.  Uber obviously fills a great need for consumers, but that doesn't change the fact that the people who provide that need are grossly exploited.  

[william marshal]

agreed, on all aspects, not only that but if i was still active with uber and they found out that i had made my previous post that would be grounds for termination. they told us that out right during orientation and i know a few people that where let go for not towing the party line.

[zelticgar]

Thanks for the inside info Williams and Dr. P.

I'd be curious to get both of your thoughts around tipping?  When I first started using Uber I never tipped because they said not to give tips but I have heard that the pay is not that great so I have started giving the drivers tips. Gas cost is not too bad right now but I have to imagine drivers go through a lot of bottled water.

[Balefont]

The way I see it, Uber is an agent of reform in what was previously a very poorly run and exploitative sector. While I don't particularly like the ethics of their business model, I am hopeful that the effect of their attempts to 'disrupt' the marketplace will lead to better outcomes for the consumer and the taxi driver, even if that's not initially the case. The ideal outcome would be that the traditional services modernise and this results in improved service.

 

^^^ This.

I've used Uber a handful of times in Boston and cab service as well.  The Boston cab driver experience is one of the most frightening driving passenger experiences I've ever had.  And they're less convenient than Uber. 

Every Boston Uber ride we've taken we've spoken with the drivers and they said they were happy.  Most were people looking to earn extra pocket money.  However, the husband talked with an Uber driver out in Denver and the driver and his wife quit their jobs, bought expensive vehicles to qualify for the higher "class" Uber services, and now things aren't going well for them.  Not sure I can blame Uber for their obviously risky decision, imo.

[IamMe90]

Forcing drivers to constantly stock bottled water for riders is already ridiculous, and is only compounded by the fact bottled water is a heinous abomination of a product. I would really much, much rather them not help steadily destroy the ecosystem than have them provide little bottles of water I would never think to drink in such a setting anyway. 

[sperry]

Uber is absolutely incredible.  It is a phenomenal service to use.  It has made my life and other's lives safer by getting drunk drivers off the road.  Safety concerns about uber drivers are pretty comical as well, considering the state of cabs. I feel so much safer in an uber, considering the fact that there is a gps tracking where I am and who I'm with at all times, and the driver is in their own car not some hourly employee of a cab company. It's also nice that I'm not at the mercy of the whims of some dispatcher's mood as to whether or not I actually get a cab.  If I order an Uber, it's coming.  If it doesn't come, I can

 

As for "exploiting the workers", that is complete nonsense.  This is a new market, creating new job opportunities for individuals.  Why do you think most taxi drivers are new immigrants? I'll give you a hint, it's not because the pay and benefits are phenomenal. Any argument about exploitation for a job that allows you to work as little or as much as you want, and at whatever times you want, is just silly. Uber offers the opportunity to make money on your own schedule.  If you don't find that opportunity worthwhile, you don't have to do it.

 

This is not a case of a company coming in and replacing all the good high paying jobs with crappy jobs.  It's a company coming in and offering a whole bunch of new jobs that didn't exist before in most markets, while replacing some other crappy jobs in markets that did have full taxi coverage.

 

The Uber CEO may be a jerk, wouldn't be the first time a visionary was a jerk (Steve Jobs anyone?).

[sperry]

Forcing drivers to constantly stock bottled water for riders is already ridiculous, and is only compounded by the fact bottled water is a heinous abomination of a product. I would really much, much rather them not help steadily destroy the ecosystem than have them provide little bottles of water I would never think to drink in such a setting anyway. 

They may have early on forced drivers to provide bottles of water or snacks, but they certainly don't any longer.

[Commodore]

the bastardization of words like "force" and "exploitation" in this thread is illuminating

[william marshal]

tipping is a mixed bag, in a perfect world tipping would not be necessary. unfortunately it is a large part of drivers income, the difference is between paying rent and living in a homeless shelter. that's a bit of an exaggeration but only marginally. shifts are 12 hours even though the federal regs set by the department of transportation is 8 hours of rest for every 10 hours of driving. i know a lot of people who will do double shifts and sleep in the car between rides to make ends meet. which is one of the reasons why cab drivers tend smell, they probably have been working for several days with little time to wash or sleep. believe me this is not a choice, we know when we stink. this is also the main reason for so many accidents and erratic driving. no one seems to care as long as they get their money. a little later i'll explain the pay systems.

here in NYC, taxis are regulated into 2 different categories with some subcategories and some crossover. there are three types of companies and two types of licenses. NYC is regulated by the TLC (taxi and limousine commission), and each area outside of the city has it's own regs.

it breaks down like this. yellow cabs are the medallion taxis that seem to get the most news. they used to make the most money for drivers. they used to be considered top dog and most stressful.  the license takes a few months and several thousand dollars to get for a driver. most of the cost is taking a geography course about NYC. then there is a bunch of other fees such as drug testing, fingerprint background checks and such, and now medical. these drivers rent the yellow cab for 12 hours. the last time i did it during the day it was $150/day,  $200/night. this is paid when picking up the car. these cars tend to be crown vickys with V8 that are rarely tuned. so your lucky to get 5-7 miles a gallon and expect to drive between 150 to 200 mile per shift. your responsible for the gas tolls and any other driving related expenses other then maintenance and have to return the car with a full tank. you can easily spend $75 and up for gas alone. this used to be a decent way for immigrants to make a decent living and send their kids to college. after all addresses are numbers. you don't need to know english to understand an address and how to navigate.

the next level below that is what is called livery. livery side of things are broken up into 2 subcategories. local livery (cab stands) and black car services (limos). cab stands are the lowest paying. tending to be populated by people who have other jobs and are looking for few extra dollars, retired people again looking to supplement other incomes, drivers that are starting out and need to pad their resume. and finally the dregs of society that have no other choice.

the next step up, are limo drivers. they used to make really good money again for long hours, frequently up to 15-18 hour days behind the wheel. they have standards that many can't keep up. my standards while driving limos where never speak to a customer unless spoken to unless introducing your self. get out of the car hold doors open, help customers with bags, getting in and out of the car before being asked. anticipate what they want do jump to it. never wait to be asked. but your likely to get a $10-20 dollar tips. limo companies wont hire you unless you have experience or know someone. 

[Commodore]

Forcing drivers to constantly stock bottled water for riders is already ridiculous, and is only compounded by the fact bottled water is a heinous abomination of a product. 

"forcing" drivers to cater to needs of paying customers is ridiculous...

[JonSnow4President]

forcing drivers to cater to needs of paying customers is ridiculous...

If it's a markup cost, it's not.  If it's forced to come out of an already small fare relative to costs, than it is.  I've never taken an Uber, so I can't tell you.  I do my drinking in my own home, and I like to be in control behind the wheel of a car.

[Dr. Pepper]

Thanks for the inside info Williams and Dr. P.

I'd be curious to get both of your thoughts around tipping?  When I first started using Uber I never tipped because they said not to give tips but I have heard that the pay is not that great so I have started giving the drivers tips. Gas cost is not too bad right now but I have to imagine drivers go through a lot of bottled water.

My opinion is that if you want to tip, then tip.  However, I can't stand the tipping industry.  I tend to think it would do more long time harm than good to make tipping Uber drivers the norm.  I'm not a fan of anything that lets the company off the hook of paying their workers a living wage.  I'm sure there are ways that Uber can be profitable while still allowing their drivers to earn a living.  

The bottled water and snacks thing, ugh, that needs to be phased out.  I think it might have been a good idea when Uber was first starting off, but it's really a burden.  It's expensive, it's wasteful, it takes up too much precious time getting the water and taking it in and out of the vehicle.  Not to mention that when you don't have it, drivers will often be rated lower and I'll tell you what happens with ratings when I respond to sperry in just a moment.

[S John]

The one thing I hated about it is that the early Uber drivers and I suppose the company set the standards such that Uber drivers are expected to provide more than they can really afford.  Aside from the requirement of having a newer car that was very clean, I was expected to provide water and snacks, phone chargers, access to my car's bluetooth system and be an excellent conversationalist who could speak intelligently on all topics.  I ran into a couple of Uber drivers at an event and aside from pay, some of the biggest complaints was having to spend so much money to keep riders hydrated, fed and entertained which obviously cut even more into pay.  

Not that it is a surprise, but it is interesting to me that the drivers are encouraged to be chatty and entertaining.  

I would have to say that my main nitpick with Uber from a user perspective would be specifically that -  that the driver talks to me the entire time, every time.  I am not a rude person and I like most people so I always indulge in the chat, it's not like it is a major hardship.   But I use Uber about twice a week on average.  I think that your first few times using it, it's cool that the driver is so nice and friendly, but on repeated use its kinda exhausting to have the same small-talkish convo with a different driver over and over again.  Sometimes I just want them to take me to the destination I entered and skip the small talk.  I imagine that this would suit many of the drivers just fine as well!  Must be much worse for them having to stay 'on' with every lame passenger they pick up.  

On snacks - I rarely see that in the Uber's I have taken in the last year.  I remember it being that way at first with the water and all that, but lately I haven't seen that.  

[Shryke]

Uber is absolutely incredible.  It is a phenomenal service to use.  It has made my life and other's lives safer by getting drunk drivers off the road.  Safety concerns about uber drivers are pretty comical as well, considering the state of cabs. I feel so much safer in an uber, considering the fact that there is a gps tracking where I am and who I'm with at all times, and the driver is in their own car not some hourly employee of a cab company. It's also nice that I'm not at the mercy of the whims of some dispatcher's mood as to whether or not I actually get a cab.  If I order an Uber, it's coming.  If it doesn't come, I can

 

As for "exploiting the workers", that is complete nonsense.  This is a new market, creating new job opportunities for individuals.  Why do you think most taxi drivers are new immigrants? I'll give you a hint, it's not because the pay and benefits are phenomenal. Any argument about exploitation for a job that allows you to work as little or as much as you want, and at whatever times you want, is just silly. Uber offers the opportunity to make money on your own schedule.  If you don't find that opportunity worthwhile, you don't have to do it.

 

This is not a case of a company coming in and replacing all the good high paying jobs with crappy jobs.  It's a company coming in and offering a whole bunch of new jobs that didn't exist before in most markets, while replacing some other crappy jobs in markets that did have full taxi coverage.

 

The Uber CEO may be a jerk, wouldn't be the first time a visionary was a jerk (Steve Jobs anyone?).

What are you even talking about? You do understand that taxis already exist, yes?

[Dr. Pepper]

 

As for "exploiting the workers", that is complete nonsense.  This is a new market, creating new job opportunities for individuals.  Why do you think most taxi drivers are new immigrants? I'll give you a hint, it's not because the pay and benefits are phenomenal. Any argument about exploitation for a job that allows you to work as little or as much as you want, and at whatever times you want, is just silly. Uber offers the opportunity to make money on your own schedule.  If you don't find that opportunity worthwhile, you don't have to do it.

 

Uber drivers have huge upfront costs.  Most taxi drivers aren't fronting $15k-$30+k just to start working.  Taxi fares also are designed to cover the cost of operation whereas Uber fares are not.  Uber drivers are often not even earning min wage. 

 

They may have early on forced drivers to provide bottles of water or snacks, but they certainly don't any longer.

Riders rate drivers.  This is not a problem.  The problem is that drivers must maintain an extremely high rating in order to continue driving with Uber.  Drivers also aren't given much ability to appeal ratings.  The cutoff for these ratings aren't averaged over a period of time, but pretty much immediately or at best over a period of a couple of days.  So when a rider decides to give a 4 star rating because their driver didn't have water or snacks, that rider has jeopardized the income for the driver.  What if two, three, four riders in one day give four stars to a driver for failing to provide water, that driver will be completely shut out of the system and no longer allowed to work for Uber.  The driver can appeal and maybe in a couple of weeks he'll be able to work again because Uber doesn't have an official bottled water policy, but the fact is that the rider has made it so that drivers need to provide these things if they want to stay driving.

Obviously, this isn't always the case, but it happens and quite frequently, too.  When you go to rate your driver, be very thoughtful about it. Poor driving or questionable maintainence on the vehicle are good reasons to give less than 5 star ratings.  Not having water, not having blue tooth systems, not being knowledgeable about a certain type of music, not having a super amazing personality are really not good reasons to give less than 5 stars.  

[Dr. Pepper]

Not that it is a surprise, but it is interesting to me that the drivers are encouraged to be chatty and entertaining.  

I would have to say that my main nitpick with Uber from a user perspective would be specifically that -  that the driver talks to me the entire time, every time.  I am not a rude person and I like most people so I always indulge in the chat, it's not like it is a major hardship.   But I use Uber about twice a week on average.  I think that your first few times using it, it's cool that the driver is so nice and friendly, but on repeated use its kinda exhausting to have the same small-talkish convo with a different driver over and over again.  Sometimes I just want them to take me to the destination I entered and skip the small talk.  I imagine that this would suit many of the drivers just fine as well!  Must be much worse for them having to stay 'on' with every lame passenger they pick up.  

On snacks - I rarely see that in the Uber's I have taken in the last year.  I remember it being that way at first with the water and all that, but lately I haven't seen that.  

I'm glad that some of the markets are changing and hope it continues across all markets.  This is why my feelings on Uber are so conflicted.  It's really difficult for people who are trying to make a living, but I think that it's still evolving and evolving fast enough that in the long run it will be more good than harmful to workers for the drivers and riders to find a good balance so that everyone involved receives net positive benefits from these sorts of services.