European politics: Into the "right" futur

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Tgftv,

Indeed.  I noticed that the leader of the "Sharia Police" looked very Deutsch.

[The guy from the Vale]

His name is Sven Lau. That's about as German as it gets. Another prominent one is Pierre Vogel, again an ethnic German. Throwing out the immigrants and refugees will not accomplish all that much in combatting Muslim extremism here, not with the internet allowing everybody everywhere to get his hands on information on just about any topic.

[Altherion]

But economies can grow. Their is not a limited amount of jobs to go around now is there? Germany had also a lot of immigration but unemployment ain't that high. Granted wages are quite low.

In principle, yes, they can grow and no, there is not a limited number of jobs. In practice, Western economies are growing slowly, most of that growth is pocketed by the elites and while unemployment is not terrible, most jobs offer neither high pay nor strong possibilities of advancement. Germany is the strongest of the European economies and even there things don't appear to be so great.

[Biglose]

The local courts determined that what these "sharia policemen" were doing was largely legal and covered by the freedoms of speech and religion. The only thing they were actually guilty of was not announcing their rallies to the police.

On a related note, our right-wingers will find it very hard to get rid of salafists in this country by keeping Muslim refugees out. The leading salafist figures in Germany are to a very large degree ethnic German convertites, not Turks or Iranians or even Arabs. Muslim immigrants are less of a problem, from that perspective, than natives who become Muslims.

Well, less then 20%, still high though. What is kind of interesting is the fact that the number coming from mixed marriages is even higher. So I think it kind of shows that there is a real recruiting efford.

 

Anyway: Good news anyhow the FN seems to have at least not to have won any regions in this elections...

[Bennis of the Brown Shield]

Sorry, for making it a bit unclear. I am not talking about the people voting, most of those act according to their information and in their interests. (I may think they are wrong in the long term but I see why the vote and position themself the way they do)

I am talking about the elites in media and politics who should be by fare better informed than anybody on this board. But still they act in a way which is has been obvious to bring the opposite of what they claim they want.

Granted, I too do not believe it is actually a conspiracy to get the right wing in power. What I honestly believe is, that it is politically better not to address problems until they turned into a wildfire. And even then why not wait until your opponents got burned.

 

Ah, okay. 

Well, it wouldn't be the first time the "elites" of a society messed something up really bad. On the contrary such things as pretty common throughout history. Your honest opinion is probably close to the truth yes. 

What can be safely discarded is the idea that it is a conspiracy. It would involve far, far too many people for keeping it secret ever being a possibility. Even relatively small conspiracies often get out to the public sooner or later because someone leaks, and here we are talking about something involving the political and medial elites of two continents, for decades... 

 

 

[HexMachina]

Coincidentally, this just popped up on BBC news alerts;

French far right National Front 'routed' in key vote
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-35088276
 

[The Marquis de Leech]

By the way, right wing =/= nationalists. Scottish main party are nationalists but they are left wing.

The SNP are left-wing out of expedience, not conviction (really, they don't care, so long as they get independence - see their 1979 vote to bring down a Labour Government). And they certainly have a pro-business wing. The Welsh Plaid Cymru are a much better example of a left-wing nationalist movement, though they're much more flexible on independence than the SNP, and are often stereotyped as Welsh language nuts.

In terms of nationalism, you have to differentiate between ideologically neutral civic nationalism (which the SNP represent), and the much darker (and explicitly right-wing) ethnic nationalism of the BNP. UKIP is officially civic nationalist, but in practice strays to the dark side from time to time.

[Tijgy]

I think few people already said. Nationalism is not always "far right" (which is in fact normally the term used for islamic critic parties, while actually they are also not always right on the right-left specter if you look for topics concerning economics. They might actually more social there than other (liberal) parties).

In Catalonia you have nationalistic parties with a left, middle and right background. Sinn Fein, which was actually the driven force for an independent Ireland, is left nationalistic. Some basque nationalists are also on the left sight. The "nationalists" in Corsica actually won and they are on the left sight. These nationalist parties are actually separatists while they have some concerns similar like Front National (like the concerns of their own people (region/nation)) they might have concern on other subjects. 

 

Granted, I too do not believe it is actually a conspiracy to get the right wing in power. What I honestly believe is, that it is politically better not to address problems until they turned into a wildfire. And even then why not wait until your opponents got burned.

I believe there is actually an open conspiracy operation to not get any extreme right party to power. While in Belgium the flemish (nationalist) far-right party do not get any moment on the national television (which is payed by the tax payer and that flemish nationalist party still represent 5 % of the votes - in the last poll even almost 12% - spectacular if you know the second highest party gained 15%) to speak about what they think, while at the same time someone who used to be jihadist got completely free right to speak on the same broad cast without any criticism of the interviewer or without the interview was placed in any context?

The other parties organized a cordon sanitaire around that same party: meaning they actually just ignore that party, they are not involved in the government formation, ... That party won actually once 1/3 of the vote. But because of the cordon sanitaire, those votes were actually sort of lost. So a large of them went to the other nationalist party (which has now 29%). People from parliament leaves the room when they are having a speech in the parliament, they tried to cut of their subsidies, ... 

In France you saw actually now a tactical retreat of the socialists to ensure Front National would not win.

Long live democracy(?) ... I just think it is rather ironic to say you are protecting the democracy while you are shutting up those far-right means by not really letting the people speak. 

 

Granted, I too do not believe it is actually a conspiracy to get the right wing in power. What I honestly believe is, that it is politically better not to address problems until they turned into a wildfire. And even then why not wait until your opponents got burned.

I might not really understand you here. But when I read this, I thought it was really weird. Are you now saying that politicians should just ignore the problems? 

For example, just ignore situations just like the mayor of Molenbeek (you know that place in Brussels which is called the jihadist capital of Europe)? That is really interesting think to look at things. 

In Belgium, I actually think the refusal to address problems concerning integration, ... by the traditional parties do actually lead to the fact they are starting for parties which are far-right. (Next to the fact those parties actually do get blamed for the economic crisis and criticism of the EU is rising). I do not know what you want people to think when they hear the following: "There are not enough people with an foreign background in the police. Let give them the possibility to become police without they graduated from high school and without they need to speak Dutch" Okay, I hope you extend the same courtesy to the people with a Belgian background? Does this also mean people only speaking French can become police? Why did all those Flemish nationalist fought for the fact in Flanders the language of the administration was Dutch and not French (and this is actual the historical reason why Belgium political a fucked up country is). Such things do aggravate people in our European "white" society in which we want migrant to follow our fundamental values where we organize and pay courses so they could learn about them. 

If a large minority vote for a far-right party, you cannot just ignore their concerns and say they are "stupid". You have the obligation to investigate why they vote for them, why people might be scared, ... and you need to address those concerns and you cannot just play put your head in the sand. And I believe this is more democratic than just look what the majority thinks (o no, I am really Belgian. I am here promoting for deliberative democracy)

[The Marquis de Leech]

Sinn Fein, which was actually the driven force for an independent Ireland, is left nationalistic.

It's economically left-wing, and socially right-wing. The same could actually be said of working class Protestants in Northern Ireland - it's just that economics has traditionally mattered less in the positioning of Irish political parties than religion and which side of the Civil War your great-grandfather fought on. 

[SeanF]

Coincidentally, this just popped up on BBC news alerts;

French far right National Front 'routed' in key vote

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-35088276

 

 

Not exactly routed.  They tripled their seats in the Regional Assemblies, and came very close to winning two outright (Bourgogne Franch Comte) and Central Loire Valley.

[Commodore]

aren't FN basically just anti-immigration socialists?

 

[The Marquis de Leech]

aren't FN basically just anti-immigration socialists?

 

No, they're fascists pretending to be "good honest populists". Marine Le Pen dropped Dear Old Dad.

[Biglose]

I believe there is actually an open conspiracy operation to not get any extreme right party to power. While in Belgium the flemish (nationalist) far-right party do not get any moment on the national television (which is payed by the tax payer and that flemish nationalist party still represent 5 % of the votes - in the last poll even almost 12% - spectacular if you know the second highest party gained 15%) to speak about what they think, while at the same time someone who used to be jihadist got completely free right to speak on the same broad cast without any criticism of the interviewer or without the interview was placed in any context?

The other parties organized a cordon sanitaire around that same party: meaning they actually just ignore that party, they are not involved in the government formation, ... That party won actually once 1/3 of the vote. But because of the cordon sanitaire, those votes were actually sort of lost. So a large of them went to the other nationalist party (which has now 29%). People from parliament leaves the room when they are having a speech in the parliament, they tried to cut of their subsidies, ... 

In France you saw actually now a tactical retreat of the socialists to ensure Front National would not win.

Long live democracy(?) ... I just think it is rather ironic to say you are protecting the democracy while you are shutting up those far-right means by not really letting the people speak.

While I agree with your criticism, I think that you have as a participant of the democratic system also the right and the obligation to actually fight for what you think is the right way. And of course this means with all tactical means, which are legal. Otherwise it is a ghost of democrazy not the real thing.  And keeping the right wing out is (speaking for germany and france here) is obviously in the interest of the rest of government. There would be even direct economical implications tied to Le Pen getting President.

I might not really understand you here. But when I read this, I thought it was really weird. Are you now saying that politicians should just ignore the problems? 

For example, just ignore situations just like the mayor of Molenbeek (you know that place in Brussels which is called the jihadist capital of Europe)? That is really interesting think to look at things. 

In Belgium, I actually think the refusal to address problems concerning integration, ... by the traditional parties do actually lead to the fact they are starting for parties which are far-right. (Next to the fact those parties actually do get blamed for the economic crisis and criticism of the EU is rising). I do not know what you want people to think when they hear the following: "There are not enough people with an foreign background in the police. Let give them the possibility to become police without they graduated from high school and without they need to speak Dutch" Okay, I hope you extend the same courtesy to the people with a Belgian background? Does this also mean people only speaking French can become police? Why did all those Flemish nationalist fought for the fact in Flanders the language of the administration was Dutch and not French (and this is actual the historical reason why Belgium political a fucked up country is). Such things do aggravate people in our European "white" society in which we want migrant to follow our fundamental values where we organize and pay courses so they could learn about them.

I understand what you are writing and what your concerns are. The point is, if you look straight at the issue at hand and ask what the outcome would have been if acted differently, I think you will understand what I meant.

Molenbeek worked for the major, for a long time. As far as I know he made it to retirement. There were never any issues for his party or at least not big once. The point is, that would he have acted differently he might have prevented the current situation, but of course he would have caused damage to himself and his party (beeing called racist etc.)

I considered for a long time that the crazy had to go somewhere. While in the US they went to the right, because the democrats got to moderate in europe they went to the left.

(There is actually quite a intersting poem

lichtung

manche meinen

lechts und rinks

kann man nicht velwechsern

werch ein illtum

(Ernst Jandl)1966
it is difficult to translate because it used misspelling to send the message:

Clearing (If you change the first letter it becomes direction)

light and reft
one can not mix up(misspelled)
what(misspelled) a misstake(misspelled)

So I thought in general, well they really believe what they are doing gets things in the direction they want them to go, they just do not know any better. But I start to think that some actually know, that this ain't the case. That they more or less played along, because trying to stop it would have costed them politically. You can't be a left wing party and end up on the right of the conservatives. And merkel was pushing more and more to the left, forcing their hand even further. (And the less intelligent part of them thought that meant they were winning)

But I guess what they did not see coming was the fact (not Merkel, nobody) that the refugee crisis would trigger such a crash. I do think they were not aware of how rotten parts of the fabric in europeen societies were. Smaller countries with a better connection to their population like denmark, right away closed the borders.

[mormont]

It's economically left-wing, and socially right-wing.

Uh, what?

SF support same-sex marriage, are opposed to academic selection in education, are anti-nuclear power, support nationalised healthcare and are pro-immigration. All of these are usually viewed as left-wing social positions. The main exception is abortion, but there are obvious reasons for that. What 'socially right-wing' policies of SF did you have in mind? Or is it just that you are reluctant to accept the idea that nationalist parties can be genuinely left-wing, so insist that it's about 'expedience' or that they're only 'economically' left-wing?

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

"Anti-nuclear power"?  Are they looking for solutions to climate change that can, legitimately, not involve nuclear power or are they planning to push human civilzation back to 18th century levels of technology? 

[Commodore]

No, they're fascists pretending to be "good honest populists". Marine Le Pen dropped Dear Old Dad.

but what makes them fascists other than their immigration position?

[mormont]

but what makes them fascists other than their immigration position?

Other than having fascist policies, what makes them fascist? It's a real puzzler.

[The guy from the Vale]

Nazi apologist party leaders who admit to having tortured Algerians and were associated with Francist Spain-based OAS don't help either.

[Commodore]

Other than having fascist policies, what makes them fascist? It's a real puzzler.

this is what I was referring to:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Front_(France)

Under her leadership, Marine Le Pen has been more clear in her support for protectionism, while she has criticised globalism and capitalism for certain industries.^[177] She has been characterised as a proponent of letting the government take care of health, education, transportation, banking and energy

[Hereward]

And that is inconsistent with fascism because...?