Rhaenys_Targaryen Posted February 7, 2016 Author Share Posted February 7, 2016 5 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said: Yes, I believe there is an SSM indicating that there is song "Song of Ice and Fire" now but that's how our story would be remembered in universe. Any chance you could find that SSM? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted February 7, 2016 Share Posted February 7, 2016 1 minute ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said: Any chance you could find that SSM? Umm... no. But I'll bet someone here can... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSnowInWinterfell Posted February 7, 2016 Share Posted February 7, 2016 4 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said: So, when HBO Arya, referring to HBO Jaqen, told HBO Sandor, "I know a man who could kill you with his little finger," do you suppose they were hinting at anything? not sure, that could mean a couple different things. fun to think about... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fattest Leech Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 Was the mad king Aerys ready and willing to burn himself along with Kings Landing during his wildfire plot? How was Jaime supposed to bring Tywins head to Aerys if A wasn't alive? These are questions I was just asked that I realized I wasn't too clear about it... After all these damned years!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 7 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said: Was the mad king Aerys ready and willing to burn himself along with Kings Landing during his wildfire plot? How was Jaime supposed to bring Tywins head to Aerys if A wasn't alive? These are questions I was just asked that I realized I wasn't too clear about it... After all these damned years!!! Yes. Didn't he think it would transform him into a dragon? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fattest Leech Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 36 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said: Yes. Didn't he think it would transform him into a dragon? I know other Targs in the past tried the fire-into-dragons thing with "shocking" results like death, but I didn't think Aerys thought that. Hmmm. Weird. I'm not at my computer right now so I can't check the search site and the wiki doesn't say if the mad King thought he would morph like a beautiful dragonfly or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 41 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said: I know other Targs in the past tried the fire-into-dragons thing with "shocking" results like death, but I didn't think Aerys thought that. Hmmm. Weird. I'm not at my computer right now so I can't check the search site and the wiki doesn't say if the mad King thought he would morph like a beautiful dragonfly or not. Found it... "Aerys meant to have the greatest funeral pyre of them all. Though if truth be told, I do not believe he truly expected to die. Like Aerion Brightfire before him, Aerys thought the fire would transform him … that he would rise again, reborn as a dragon, and turn all his enemies to ash." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fattest Leech Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 25 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said: Found it... You rock! Thanks Lost M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rho'd Berth Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 When you bury your kings and lords in some crypt, one would expect that the oldest kings would be buried near the surface, and then when you go deeper and deeper, you'd find the later kings and lords. It's not like they would say 8000 years ago: "Lets dig 500 meters into the ground to bury our first king" and then from then on work their way up. Despite that, the latest deceased Starks are in the highest levels of the crypts of Winterfell while the older Stark Kings lay deeper. Why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Weirgaryen Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 Imagine it works out like this. The first and greatest of all, that winter king, comes along winning all the battles that be. He gets immensely rich and has a host of worshippers. He settles down and has a castle built in the place around that most sacred of heart trees. The first and greatest of all winter kings before him already knew that place, and had found the natural cavern system the winter king before him had used as a refuge when war went the wrong way. So our hero sets the host to work the castle and has them build out those caverns as a gigantic fruits and grains store. After his death, his son wants him buried somewhere cool and dry. But NO, Not in the grain stores! No way! Sire, yes, sire! Of course, Sire. Maybe, he'd better be buried deep in the roots of the gods and not where the grain carts will roll over his monument? Right. *sigh*. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Weirgaryen Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 2 hours ago, Rho'd Berth said: Despite that, the latest deceased Starks are in the highest levels of the crypts of Winterfell while the older Stark Kings lay deeper. Why? Makes me think of another bit: We aren't explicitly told that the crypts are almost filled up. But if they were, wouldn't it hint at the Starks dying out? :-/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rho'd Berth Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 42 minutes ago, Jon Weirgaryen said: Imagine it works out like this. The first and greatest of all, that winter king, comes along winning all the battles that be. He gets immensely rich and has a host of worshippers. He settles down and has a castle built in the place around that most sacred of heart trees. The first and greatest of all winter kings before him already knew that place, and had found the natural cavern system the winter king before him had used as a refuge when war went the wrong way. So our hero sets the host to work the castle and has them build out those caverns as a gigantic fruits and grains store. After his death, his son wants him buried somewhere cool and dry. But NO, Not in the grain stores! No way! Sire, yes, sire! Of course, Sire. Maybe, he'd better be buried deep in the roots of the gods and not where the grain carts will roll over his monument? Right. *sigh*. Yes, it's clear that there's a good reason to put them down in the crypts. But that's not the question. The question is why the latest kings lay on top of the oldest kings, instead of the other way around. It makes no sense that the expansion goes upwards instead of downwards. Even if they decided to put the first kings deep down, then still after 8000 years there would be no room left up anymore. Let's say that there are 40 kings every 1000 years, then we need 320 kings. But relatives are buried there as well. So let's triple it to 1000 buried people in the crypts of winterfell. Let's say that there's room for 50 people on each level, then we need 20 levels. So unless you suggest that it started with a 20 levels deep crypt where they putted the first people on the lowest levels, it makes no sense. What makes sense is, start with a 3 or 4 level deep crypt, put the first people on the lowest level, and then after all 4 levels are filled up, start digging to create new levels. And then through the ages, the digging would continue and the latest kings/lords and their siblings will always be buried on the lowest levels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knight Of Winter Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 I don't know why they buried king upwards (interesting question), I just wanted to point out that only King/Lords of Winter were buried in Wintrefell crypts, not their relatives. Ned was making an exception for Brandon and Lyanna. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaenys_Targaryen Posted February 9, 2016 Author Share Posted February 9, 2016 29 minutes ago, Knight Of Winter said: I don't know why they buried king upwards (interesting question), I just wanted to point out that only King/Lords of Winter were buried in Wintrefell crypts, not their relatives. Ned was making an exception for Brandon and Lyanna. That's not correct, actually. Most, if not all Starks have tombes in the crypt. But only the Kings and Lords receive statues. Neither Brandon nor Lyanna should have received a statue, if tradition was followed, but Ned gave them one anyway. That is the exception that Ned made. Whether that was always the case, or whether it is a more recent development, is difficult to say. But there are tombes for siblings of Ned as well as for his children. Not just for Robb, the future Lord of Winterfell. Fear cuts deeper than swords, the quiet voice inside her whispered. Suddenly Arya remembered the crypts at Winterfell. They were a lot scarier than this place, she told herself. She’d been just a little girl the first time she saw them. Her brother Robb had taken them down, her and Sansa and baby Bran, who’d been no bigger than Rickon was now. They’d only had one candle between them, and Bran’s eyes had gotten as big as saucers as he stared at the stone faces of the Kings of Winter, with their wolves at their feet and their iron swords across their laps. Robb took them all the way down to the end, past Grandfather and Brandon and Lyanna, to show them their own tombs. Sansa kept looking at the stubby little candle, anxious that it might go out. Old Nan had told her there were spiders down here, and rats as big as dogs. Robb smiled when she said that. “There are worse things than spiders and rats,” he whispered. “This is where the dead walk.” That was when they heard the sound, low and deep and shivery. Baby Bran had clutched at Arya’s hand. Edit: this quote by Bran also shows that the statues are the exception, not the tombes “And there’s my grandfather, Lord Rickard, who was beheaded by Mad King Aerys. His daughter Lyanna and his son Brandon are in the tombs beside him. Not me, another Brandon, my father’s brother. They’re not supposed to have statues, that’s only for the lords and the kings, but my father loved them so much he had them done.” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Weirgaryen Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 57 minutes ago, Rho'd Berth said: The question is why the latest kings lay on top of the oldest kings, instead of the other way around. It makes no sense that the expansion goes upwards instead of downwards. I had tried this for an answer to that question: 1 hour ago, Jon Weirgaryen said: After his death, his son wants him buried somewhere cool and dry. But NO, Not in the grain stores! No way! Sire, yes, sire! Of course, Sire. Maybe, he'd better be buried deep in the roots of the gods and not where the grain carts will roll over his monument? Right. *sigh*. ... 57 minutes ago, Rho'd Berth said: Even if they decided to put the first kings deep down, then still after 8000 years there would be no room left up anymore. That so much depends on how much room there is and was. You imagine there wasn't, so your example matches your expectation. This is fantasy after all, and even with "historical" accounts from antiquity, a few zeroes were passed to the numbers. So you have a point but still need not be right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knight Of Winter Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 11 minutes ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said: That's not correct, actually. Most, if not all Starks have tombes in the crypt. But only the Kings and Lords receive statues. Neither Brandon nor Lyanna should have received a statue, if tradition was followed, but Ned gave them one anyway. That is the exception that Ned made. Are you sure about that ? I don't remember anything that wouold imply all the Starks were buried in the crypts. Your quote above just seems like something kindhearted Ned would do for his children (much like how he made an exception for his siblings), not as an established Stark tradition. And remember in ADWD, when Theon shows Stark crypts to Barbrey Dustion: he only mentions and talks about Kings/Lords of WInterfell, not of their relatives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaenys_Targaryen Posted February 9, 2016 Author Share Posted February 9, 2016 29 minutes ago, Knight Of Winter said: Are you sure about that ? I don't remember anything that wouold imply all the Starks were buried in the crypts. Your quote above just seems like something kindhearted Ned would do for his children (much like how he made an exception for his siblings), not as an established Stark tradition. And remember in ADWD, when Theon shows Stark crypts to Barbrey Dustion: he only mentions and talks about Kings/Lords of WInterfell, not of their relatives. If the fact that Brandon and Lyanna had tombs was an exception, why does Bran only speak of the statues as being an exception? Why not mention the tombs as well? The fact that he doesn't, but does point out he statues, suggests that hem having tombs is not out of the ordinary. We have quotes placing siblings of Ned in the crypt, as well as future tombs for his children already being in place. Meanwhile, we have nothing, at the moment, suggesting that it was never done before, burrying other Starks in the crypt. Even Lyanna asking to be brought home, to rest beside Rickard and Brandon, points to this being, at least for quite some time by then, normal. How else would she know that Brandon would receive a tomb? He was not the Lord of Winterfell when he died. In addition to the request itself, to be transported back so she could be placed in the crypt. And Ned clearly states about the crypt and Lyanna's tomb that.. "She was a Stark of Winterfell," Ned said quietly. "This is her place." In addition, in the first description of the crypt, Ned tells us that "By ancient custom an iron longsword had been laid across the lap of each who has been Lord of Winterfell, to keep the vengeful spirits in their crypts.".. Why "each who had been", if they all had been Lords of Winterfell (a title Ned uses there to indicate both the lords and the ancient kings)? Again, not specifically stating, but at least implying that there are others burried there, as well. The crypt continued on into darkness ahead of them, but beyond this point the tombs were empty and unsealed; black holes waiting for their dead, waiting for him and his children. Ned did not like to think on that. Consider this quote from Bran in Clash as well: He had never feared the crypts; they were part of his home and who he was, and he had always known that one day he would lie here too. Why would Theon, or Bran, for that matter, ever make mention of those Starks who are not famous? There are no stories to tell that either would have been interested in. They would care about the tale of a brave King, but would they care about the story of the King's sister? Unlikely, if she never did anything that would make her end up in the stories like, say, Brandon the Shipright or Cregan Stark did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knight Of Winter Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 @Rhaenys - yeah, it makes sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buried Treasure Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 Winterfell has hot springs and geothermal activity, so one possibility is that there was more volcanic activity and the crypts were originally obsidian mines. That would mean all the digging was done before they they started burying people there, and it is more natural they would fill from the bottom up. The crypts may also extend further outwards, so that even though recent Starks have not been buried deep there is still room deeper down and further out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winter Rose Crown Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 This has always bugged me. Did Walder Frey really name one of his kids "anus" or is it pronounced differently? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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