Stannis' moral judgement vs Jaime

[Floki of the Ironborn]

According to Stannis, a good act does not wash out the bad, nor a bad the good.

Now consider Jaime the Kingslayer. It was a bad act to murder the man he swore to protect, but it was a good act to save his father's life, and the lives of millions. So was Jaime's action bad or good?

Personally I feel like Stannis, faced with this dilemma, would be forced, like Javert, to end his life.

[Curled Finger]

That's funny.  Good thing Stannis isn't the judge of all things.   Stannis bends plenty to serve his own purposes--what was the deal he offered Jon, a man who could not actually accept his offer?  It will be interesting to see how GRRM humbles Stannis and if Stannis gets it all.   

[UnViserion]

That's funny.  Good thing Stannis isn't the judge of all things.   Stannis bends plenty to serve his own purposes--what was the deal he offered Jon, a man who could not actually accept his offer?  It will be interesting to see how GRRM humbles Stannis and if Stannis gets it all.   

I enjoy Stannis but yea, he really does bend things to suit his purposes.

[Curled Finger]

I enjoy Stannis but yea, he really does bend things to suit his purposes.

Stannis is a lot of fun, particularly in his rigidity.  Personally, I hope he wins something, the IT in particular, if only for a moment.  He's fought long and hard and I would like to read his reaction to a success for a change.  

[UnViserion]

Stannis is a lot of fun, particularly in his rigidity.  Personally, I hope he wins something, the IT in particular, if only for a moment.  He's fought long and hard and I would like to read his reaction to a success for a change.  

I agree, especially that last sentence. 

Tho if the show is foreshadowing of anything.. 

[Curled Finger]

I agree, especially that last sentence. 

Tho if the show is foreshadowing of anything.. 

The show, pshaw.   That's not the real Stannis.   It was uncomfortable watching that Stannis make to grab Mel's behind last season.   I love the job Dillane did with the character, but I'm very fond of book Stannis and this is the real character in my mind.   Our real Stannis wouldn't burn Shireen, that's really a stupid thing to do in that he has no other heir.  And our Stannis has many more options than were written for show Stannis.   

[James Steller]

According to Stannis, a good act does not wash out the bad, nor a bad the good.

Now consider Jaime the Kingslayer. It was a bad act to murder the man he swore to protect, but it was a good act to save his father's life, and the lives of millions. So was Jaime's action bad or good?

Personally I feel like Stannis, faced with this dilemma, would be forced, like Javert, to end his life.

Stannis cut off Davos' fingers and then knighted him. So he's able to recognize bad and good simultaneously. The problem is that Jaime's action is so polarizing that it's impossible to figure out. He cold-bloodedly murders a man he was sworn to look after, to save millions of people from burning to death. Those are two extremes that almost defy compromise.

I think it would make sense for Stannis to be unable to reconcile the good and bad. And he may very well prefer to plunge into the sea after singing one last amazing song about his moral conundrum.

I'm assuming the above scene can be performed by Philip Quast portraying Stannis.

[FuzzyJAM]

Jaime's immoral action wasn't in oath-breaking, it was in oath-making.  It's pretty clear that he made the right choice in killing those who were trying to kill thousands of civilians out of pure evil.  Now, if you have to break an oath to do something that's very obviously the right thing to do, that means the oath was a bad thing to say.  You should never swear to do something that might actually be the wrong action, but having made that mistake it's worse to stick by your past mistake than to recognise that you fucked up and disregard it.  

Stannis no doubt would just have killed Jaime, of course.  

[Lord Lannister]

Stannis pretty much will find fault in anything.

[Bloody Ben Blackwood]

On that note what do you think is a good reward + punishment for Jaime, for what he did? Short of killing him and making a statue in King's landing. 

I think sending him to the wall would have been the only option. Stripping of his white cloak and making him Lord of Casterly Rock is only reward. Chopping of his sword hand and making him LC of KG  is poetic, but might look like barbaric

[Blackfyre Bastard]

The irony of Jaime braking his Kingsguard oath by keeping his knight oath, is that there are no witnesses of the latter, whereas he's known throughout Westeros as Kingslayer.

We could argue that one has precedence over the other, but the fact is that he's going to have shit for honor forever.

I think a Stannis punishment suitable for Jaime would be to cut his remaining hand (he's fond of cutting limbs, and this is no mere smuggler,) strip him from KG office and send him somewhere else. Maybe to the Wall,

if there's still a Wall at the end of ADoS

 

[Bloody Ben Blackwood]

The wall is pretty much your ticket out of anything, it is not a reward. Tyrion was accused of regicide with no redemption and still it was planned for him to go to the wall. If Jaime gets the same thing, assuming he says why did he kill Aerys and Stannis believes him, then it is not justice. 

[A spoon of knife and fork]

I think / hope we will see Jaimes judgement not in front of Stannis, but in front of someone wih similarly rigid ideas about justice - Daenerys, with Tyrion by her side advising.  Then, we have Daenerys judging the man who is killed her father, who she knows was a mad tyrant, but only Jaime knows the truth of the wildfire.  And, we have the complicated relationship of Tyrion and Jaime as well. 

Stannis may be able to judge this situation with a degree of emotional distance, but Tyrion and Dany cannot.  Whether as a result they would be more or less open to seeing Jaimes perspective things is uncertain.  Emotional connection can lead to either more mercy or more ruthlessness, depending on many variables.  

[John Doe]

  It will be interesting to see how GRRM humbles Stannis

Lol. I don't think  someone whose daughter has greyscale, who nearly starved for his brother, saw his fleet being burned during a crucial battle, his parents die and is currently freezing needs another lesson in humilty.

 

 

[Protagoras]

Jaime is a menace. A snake that should be trampled down as quick as possible.

He did indeed commit a bad act to kill the man he swore to protect, but that is not really the problem (well it is, but there is an even worse one). The main problem is that he tries to justify this - that he should be allowed to place himself over his society and break the social contacts of vows whenever he feels like it, because he found his oaths troublesome. Well guess what Jaime - maybe you shouldn´t have sworn so many vows in the first place!

I do however think Jaime lies here. Despite that he has multiple oaths, Jaime doesn't really think its hard to keep all promises, but he somehow insists that he should decide the intent of said wows as well as the importance of them. He want to (like Jon Snow - which I have already discussed before in another thread) do "the right thing" without suffering for it and that is frankly absurd, not only because "the right thing is subjective in the first place, but also since he simply have no right enforcing his personal morality on everyone else. The rules exist for a reason, but for Jaime everything is right as long as it serves his desires.

"If Tommen wants you to saddle his horse, obey him. If he tells you to kill his horse, come to me"

After the loss of his hand and his "redemption" he tries to put up rules on if and how the white swords should obey their king and proves that he regrets nothing. He revels in the behaviour that made him despicable in the first place. Its like the robber who starts to argue that his robbing was justified and more people should start rob each other. This quote really tells everything you need to know about Jaime. When you decide to take a job you give up your right to complain about the tasks that you are supposed to perform or at the bare minimum, do them under protest. If you don´t like to perform abortions you should not work in a place where this is required nor can you expect it to consider your conscience. If you are a pacifist, then don´t join the army. Simple stuff - unless you are Jaime. In addition, he refuses to understand that his oath is one-sided (and should be). Aerys cannot "fail his kingsguard" since he decides what constitutes a fail nor does it matter if Jaime considers Aerys his king, since by accepting the title he made an implied consent towards that idea. Yet, Jaime dreams like Sansa about true knights and fail to understand that life is not a fairy-tale. He needed (and still needs) to "grow up".

Unfortunately, I know people in real life who see the quote above as a reason why Jaime is an excellent kingsguard and I am baffled by that opinion, which I find very stupid. "Defending you from yourself" is nothing but moralizing bullshit disguised as a "favor" but only serves the purpose of the so called "helper". If you want to help me, well then - do what I want you to do! Obedience is the main trait in a bodyguard. In addition, the entire behaviour stinks of disrespect - if you promise me that you will go and have a beer with me but fail to show up and then say "Well, but I had some other duties too - I should be allowed to change my mind" I will be pissed. You DO NOT have the right to change your mind without suffering consequences from your previous choice. Yet some people, like Jaime, only care about themselves. 

In addition, I see no problem with punishing someone for an act you believe are righteous, because it breaks societal rules and Jaime really needs to be put down. The kingsguard job is to follow the king (hence the name) and if you are not willing to do that (regardless of the acts and the king) you are not suitable for the job (or any job that relies on your loyalty). 

[John Doe]

Social norms are not the most important factor, that argument is flawed. Besides you chose to see the oath to the king as more important than the oath as a knight, which it's not. Jaime was conflicted and made the right  choice. Maybe not the choice of an excellent kingsguard, but of an excellent knight.