Rant and Rave Without Repercussions - Includes Season 6 Spoilers

[Tijgy]

8 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

The big difference there is she was safe in the Vale. Wyman didn't choose to be in a vulnerable position. (And he had a plan.)

Jeyne did not choose to marry Ramsay. No one with a brain, even if they didn't know the worst about Ramsay, would choose to marry Ramsay. That's insanity.

Sansa was a virgin, a young girl, this is super traumatic, what LF had her do, this was the sacrifice of body and soul. To family killers.

The psychological and physical pain would realistically be OFF THE CHARTS. That they don't see this is HORRIBLE.

It was a suicide mission she didn't have to take, that benefited no one but LF. The Boltons wanted an heir, then would kill her.

I really wanted to say the two similar things were Revenge!!!!! and the sacrifice/suicide mission. But like I said this any comparison between did indeed completely fail because Wyman has indeed a plan & some men and because (IMO Wyman is also busy with a suicide mission) the pain for Sansa would be much bigger and (I think) Wyman actually doesn't really care that much about himself ("My body has become a prison more dire than the Wolf's Den") and he prefers to die for vengeance (""Winter is almost upon us, boy. And winter is death. I would sooner my men die fighting for the Ned's little girl than alone and hungry in the snow, weeping tears that freeze upon their cheeks. No one sings songs of men who die like that. As for me, I am old. This will be my last winter. Let me bathe in Bolton blood before I die. I want to feel it spatter across my face when my axe bites deep into a Bolton skull. I want to lick it off my lips and die with the taste of it on my tongue.").

The big difference is of course you can the reason why Wyman would sacrifice himself to act some vengeance (and his men would probably prevent the Boltons from doing something worse than just killing him), he is indeed doing some sneaky business (he spent a lot of time in the privy) and Wyman did not marry Ramsay (which is completely different from just pretending to be the Boltons' ally). So I completely agree with you (and I actually just wanted to give the Wull's quote).

[Le Cygne]

I honestly don't think they thought it out that much. They told us why they did it. They loved the story of Ramsay rapes Jeyne (the only part of the story they adapted) and wanted to "use" Sansa because the audience was invested in her (aka shock factor).

I was being sarcastic about the suicide mission. There was no mission, unless it was give the Boltons an heir so they could kill her.

That was Wull saying "Winter is almost upon us..." He and his men got stuck in a snowstorm on the way to a battle, and would rather die fighting. And Manderly is conning his enemies with the too fat to travel stuff (that's how he killed the Freys), he has no intention of dying.

These are Northern lords with armies, fighting a war. They didn't do this part of the story in the show, they just swapped Sansa for Jeyne.

Here's a quote:

Quote

"The Boltons have always been as cruel as they were cunning, but this one seems a beast in human skin," said Glover.

The Lord of White Harbor leaned forward. "The Freys are no better. They speak of wargs and skinchangers and assert that it was Robb Stark who slew my Wendel. The arrogance of it! They do not expect the north to believe their lies, not truly, but they think we must pretend to believe or die. Roose Bolton lies about his part in the Red Wedding, and his bastard lies about the fall of Winterfell. And yet so long as they held Wylis I had no choice but to eat all this excrement and praise the taste."

"And now, my lord?" asked Davos.

He had hoped to hear Lord Wyman say, And now I shall declare for King Stannis, but instead the fat man smiled an odd, twinkling smile and said, "And now I have a wedding to attend. I am too fat to sit a horse, as any man with eyes can plainly see. As a boy I loved to ride, and as a young man I handled a mount well enough to win some small acclaim in the lists, but those days are done. My body has become a prison more dire than the Wolf's Den. Even so, I must go to Winterfell. Roose Bolton wants me on my knees, and beneath the velvet courtesy he shows the iron mail. I shall go by barge and litter, attended by a hundred knights and my good friends from the Twins. The Freys came here by sea. They have no horses with them, so I shall present each of them with a palfrey as a guest gift. Do hosts still give guest gifts in the south?"

"Some do, my lord. On the day their guest departs."

"Perhaps you understand, then." Wyman Manderly lurched ponderously to his feet. "I have been building warships for more than a year. Some you saw, but there are as many more hidden up the White Knife. Even with the losses I have suffered, I still command more heavy horse than any other lord north of the Neck. My walls are strong, and my vaults are full of silver. Oldcastle and Widow's Watch will take their lead from me. My bannermen include a dozen petty lords and a hundred landed knights. I can deliver King Stannis the allegiance of all the lands east of the White Knife, from Widow's Watch and Ramsgate to the Sheepshead Hills and the headwaters of the Broken Branch. All this I pledge to do if you will meet my price."

 

[Tijgy]

Just now, Le Cygne said:

I honestly don't think they thought it out that much. They told us why they did it. They loved the story of Ramsay rapes Jeyne (the only part of the story they adapted) and wanted to "use" Sansa because the audience was in vested in her (aka shock factor).

You might be right. They might not even know who Wyman is. 

[Le Cygne]

Well, they didn't know Sam was a POV character...

[Le Cygne]

Also it strikes me this is a phallic symbol, note how the sword is positioned like an erect penis. They gave Sansa mini Needle. She doesn't even get a full sized "sword"... They may make her a faux badass, but they don't think much of her.

(Also the obvious slam that book Sansa doesn't actually want Arya's kind of Needle. She is not like Arya, nor does she want to be like Arya. And that's fine. She has her own strengths, and they don't center on her vagina, either.)

[kissdbyfire]

18 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

Also it strikes me this is a phallic symbol, note how the sword is positioned like an erect penis. They gave Sansa mini Needle. She doesn't even get a full sized "sword"... They may make her a faux badass, but they don't think much of her.

(Also the obvious slam that book Sansa doesn't actually want Arya's kind of Needle. She is not like Arya, nor does she want to be like Arya. And that's fine. She has her own strengths, and they don't center on her vagina, either.)

And that's why she had to be improved as a character! Everyone knows that strong empowered women don't like any of this girlie bs, like sowing or listening to songs or whathaveyou. 

why does the stupid autocorrect thinks I don't mean "sewing" and replaces it with "sowing"?

[Ramsay's 20 Good Men]

3 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

And that's why she had to be improved as a character! Everyone knows that strong empowered women don't like any of this girlie bs, like sowing or listening to songs or whathaveyou. 

why does the stupid autocorrect thinks I don't mean "sewing" and replaces it with "sowing"?

Strong empowered women are all Greyjoys?  

[kissdbyfire]

6 minutes ago, Ramsay's 20 Good Men said:

Strong empowered women are all Greyjoys?  

[Tijgy]

4 minutes ago, Ramsay's 20 Good Men said:

Strong empowered women are all Greyjoys?  

I miss Asha's storyline (and Aly who is a Mormont).

The Mormont Ladies are just amazing. They are really the ones who are able to show you can both be female and a warrior (as represented in the carving). 

Quote

"We are stronger than we seem, my lady," Lady Maege Mormont said as they rode. Catelyn had grown fond of Lady Maege and her eldest daughter, Dacey; they were more understanding than most in the matter of Jaime Lannister, she had found. The daughter was tall and lean, the mother short and stout, but they dressed alike in mail and leather, with the black bear of House Mormont on shield and surcoat. By Catelyn's lights, that was queer garb for a lady, yet Dacey and Lady Maege seemed more comfortable, both as warriors and as women, than ever the girl from Tarth had been.

(...)

"There's a carving on our gate," said Dacey. "A woman in a bearskin, with a child in one arm suckling at her breast. In the other hand she holds a battleaxe. She's no proper lady, that one, but I always loved her."

(...)

Edmure was kissing Roslin and squeezing her hand. Elsewhere in the hall, Ser Marq Piper and Ser Danwell Frey played a drinking game, Lame Lothar said something amusing to Ser Hosteen, one of the younger Freys juggled three daggers for a group of giggly girls, and Jinglebell sat on the floor sucking wine off his fingers. The servers were bringing out huge silver platters piled high with cuts of juicy pink lamb, the most appetizing dish they'd seen all evening. And Robb was leading Dacey Mormont in a dance.  - This is too fucking sweet. 

When she wore a dress in place of a hauberk, Lady Maege's eldest daughter was quite pretty; tall and willowy, with a shy smile that made her long face light up. It was pleasant to see that she could be as graceful on the dance floor as in the training yard. Catelyn wondered if Lady Maege had reached the Neck as yet. She had taken her other daughters with her, but as one of Robb's battle companions Dacey had chosen to remain by his side. He has Ned's gift for inspiring loyalty. Olyvar Frey had been devoted to her son as well. Hadn't Robb said that Olyvar wanted to remain with him even after he'd married Jeyne?

 

[Le Cygne]

You can be both, but you don't have to be. You can just do the traditionally feminine thing, and that's just fine. And that's Sansa. She doesn't want to be a warrior. And it's fine, too, that a warrior wants to protect her (and one she has in mind, particularly!) Everyone has their strengths, you aren't weak because you have friends who share their strengths. She has her own, but they don't value those. They didn't value Catelyn, either.

[Tijgy]

1 minute ago, Le Cygne said:

You can be both, but you don't have to be. You can just do the traditionally feminine thing, and that's just fine. And that's Sansa. She doesn't want to be a warrior. And it's fine, too, that a warrior wants to protect her (and one she has in mind, particularly!) Everyone has their strengths, you aren't weak because you have friends who share their strengths. She has her own, but they don't value those. They didn't value Catelyn, either.

I was actually more about the fact they are also ignoring you can be both at the same time (ThugBrienne, Karsi, ...). They are ignoring the female side of those characters. 

But you are indeed right they don't value Sansa's and Cat's strengths and have completely ignored them. This is clearly shown when they let GreatJon do his speech at the meeting of the Northern bannermen and the Riverlords and when Cat just got some cameos. 

[Ramsay's 20 Good Men]

15 minutes ago, Tijgy said:

I miss Asha's storyline (and Aly who is a Mormont).

The Mormont Ladies are just amazing. They are really the ones who are able to show you can both be female and a warrior (as represented in the carving). 

 

Yea, I love the Mormont ladies, but of course D&D had to cut them out. To be honest, I'm kinda glad they did; I just know they'd make them into Brutes like they did to Brienne. And they'd probably talk about how amazing Nice Guy Jorah is because we know how much they love their Nice Guys in this show.

[Alayne's Shadow.]

They couldn't write to save their lives. Take Talisa, for instance: If I absolutely had to cut Jeyne Westerling, I'd at least make Robb fall in love with Dacey Mormont, because it'd make sense, they'd be together in the battlefield and it would be smart to take advantage of a character with a very established origin and family in!universe. Not add a nurse from WW1 that sasses Kings and dresses rags whilst being Queen in the North.

[Le Cygne]

But Dacey is  a character readers like! They don't go for any of that nonsense... What do you think this is, an adaptation or something?

[LongRider]

1 hour ago, Tijgy said:

~~~~snip~~~~

It does actually remind me a little of what Wyman is doing. He is also pretending to be the Bolton's ally to get his revenge on them and risking his life by doing that. 

~~~~snap~~~~

Wyman also has 'skin in the game' as he had to wait and wait until the Frey's released his hostage son, then he made his move.   Wyman wanted his son alive.  For fSansa, there is no living skin in the game for her.  Sure, WF is her historic family home, but there are no Starks there, she's (as far as she knows) is the only one, with her bastard brother Snow on the wall.  (she doesn't know about Bran and Rickon right?  isn't she the only one in Westeros who doesn't know?)

Wyman is also totes smart, he bids his time and then acts, and yet still covers his actions.  The Frey that found themselves in the pie had the full benefits of guest rights and once that was satisfied....BAM! into the pie they went.

fSansa has no plan, just LF telling her to 'avenge them' and agree and then be raped.  WoW!  Vengeance was hers!   Oh wait, not.  Wyman's plan and so far his execution of his plan shows GRRM's brilliance.  His plan is logical, well thought out, not without risk and slowly achieved.  

fSansa and LF's plans?  Not so much.  More like let's put fSansa in a fug dress, make her look like she's starting to play the game and take on some agency, then take all that away in the most brutal, thoughtless way possible.  

If Wyman showed up in GOT we would get never ending fat jokes, I just know it.  Put the fat jokes next to the gay jokes, and there is some of the major themes of GOT.

[Le Cygne]

No, she didn't know about Bran or Rickon until after the rape.

Wyman had no choice, either, he was ordered to bend the knee.

[Tijgy]

13 minutes ago, Alayne's Shadow. said:

They couldn't write to save their lives. Take Talisa, for instance: If I absolutely had to cut Jeyne Westerling, I'd at least make Robb fall in love with Dacey Mormont, because it'd make sense, they'd be together in the battlefield and it would be smart to take advantage of a character with a very established origin and family in!universe. Not add a nurse from WW1 that sasses Kings and dresses rags whilst being Queen in the North.

They danced together in the books before they died at the RW  but ... do the Mormont Ladies normally not sleep with Bears and Robb is a Wolf? So this would actually go against their customs?

I just wanted to say we do not know the Mormont (ladies) in the show but I forgot we have still the Old Bear and Jorah in the show. So it might indeed a good plan. And they would also show then: oh look, Robb is marrying a women who fights. He is so progressive () - (It is actually however interesting that all the male Stark kids are protected/saved by women (Dacey - Robb, Ygritte-Jon, Osha-Rickon, Meera-Bran)). 

And to me, (while I admit I was first happy for the additional screen time for Robb because of my Robb's obsessionr), the most upsetting thing IMO was the fact they changed completely the reason why Robb married and the whole story around it. 

Just now, Le Cygne said:

But Dacey is  a character readers like! They don't go for any of that nonsense... What do you think this is, an adaptation or something?

I started laughing while I probably should start to cry, no?

2 minutes ago, LongRider said:

If Wyman showed up in GOT we would get never ending fat jokes, I just know it.  Put the fat jokes next to the gay jokes, and there is some of the major themes of GOT.

This is just scary.

Or this news is actually more scarrier: 

Quote

“Fletcher”:  He is a fat nobleman in his 60’s. He has distinctive rugged features, a Northern accent, and a distinguished air. Our source says he has a stirring speech during which he unexpectedly shifts political allegiances.

The actor is only expected to shoot for one day- the same day as the above role, on December 16th, in Northern Ireland.

Our speculation: A fat nobleman shifting alliances? If this isn’t Wyman Manderly, theGame of Thrones fandom is being trolled hard with this character. With only one day of filming, clearly the show isn’t doing the whole White Harbor plot, but I think we guessed that anyway. Perhaps this is a meeting of Northern Lords, and this is a more streamlined version of the Wyman character who made such an impression with his speech in A Dance with Dragons.

 http://watchersonthewall.com/game-of-thrones-casting-two-more-northern-noblemen-for-season-6/ - In the same post they are also describing a casting call for a young Northern nobleman who was thrust in position of power before he was ready. WotW thinks he is (Cley) Cerwyn - you know the nobleman whose family was flayed by Ramsay because they refused to pay their taxes to the Boltons. 

[TepidHands]

That costumer is also particularly proud of the rear window Faux Dany outfit:

Quote

The whorehouse scene featuring prostitute "Daenerys" was one of my favorite moments in the whole season. The dress started out as a joke. "I wanted to shock [showrunners] David [Benioff] and Dan [Weiss], because they always ask me to do outrageous things. I just thought, 'Fine, I’m going to do a costume with no ass! And they were like, 'What were you thinking, Clapton?'" the designer says. In the end, the dress made it into the show. "The whole essence of Dany is there... [there] are always circles cut in and bits missing in her dress so I thought it would be really funny. Some people said, 'Well, how would they know what she looked like?'" Clapton continues. "She’s this iconic woman so of course people talk and gossip and know what people look like! It was meant to be amusing." Mission definitely accomplished. 

Grrrrr.

[Stannis is the man....nis]

2 hours ago, Liver and Onions said:

I've always felt that all these statements from the show runners etc. regarding Sansa's plan (?!) are a weak attempt to excuse to the fact that a prominent female character was victimized unnecessarily by trying to spin it as, well, her being a pro-active female character. That article cited earlier on how female characters in cable shows should expect this kind of treatment reminds us that these "plot twists" are nothing new (as if we needed reminding). If the change had been Sansa being captured by Boltons somehow, there'd be no need to say Sansa "decided" to do anything. But the viewer reaction would be (rightly so), "Geez, Sansa's a prisoner AGAIN?" But this way, they're trying to say she exhibited agency by agreeing to Littlefinger's plan, Littlefinger's bizarre, nonsensical, stupid plan. As if that made it okay? Less bad? Well, no, it gets called out for the ludicrous scramble for justification that it is. It's insulting, victim-blaming, and just plain bad storytelling. 

During season 1, I thought they were trying to make Sansa more likable by leaving out the part where she tells Cersei about Ned's plans. Readers who dislike Sansa often cite that as a major reason why. Now I have no idea what they're doing. 

As for other characters being butchered by shoehorning then into minor characters' spots, it's been noted that Jaime is standing in for Arys Oakheart (One of many Sirs-not-appearing-in-this-show). At least he didn't get seduced and killed, I suppose, although I doubt if anything good is coming his way. 

Also, at the end of Season 4, weren't viewers clamoring for someone to avenge Oberyn? You know, that likable guy sticking it to the Lannisters who got his head crushed and it was awful? And in Season 5, the Dorne plot amounts to... a girl being murdered, supposedly competent warrior women accomplishing zilch, Tyene being set up as a reward for Bronn... A great big bag of nothing-makes-sense. 

 

Since season 3, fans wanted revenge for the RW and look what we got, No Wyman, Sansa raped, and Stannis raped (metaphorically)

[Le Cygne]

5 minutes ago, TepidHands said:

That costumer is also particularly proud of the rear window Faux Dany outfit:

Grrrrr.

No words. Also the essence of Dany is circles cut in her dress. In her wild imagination that has nothing to do with the actual story, perhaps. But that's not Dany.