Why did Tywin sack Kings Landing?

[Neds Secret]

When the gates were opened to the Lannisters at the end of Roberts Rebellion why did Tywin sack Kings Landing? He had previously been hand and Robert was fighting to topple the mad King and Tywin joined the rebellion with this act but couldn't he just have had his forces storm the red keep and depose Aerys. Kings Landing is part of the realm they were fighting for and its not as if his men had had a long  campaign and deserved spoils. It seems to me like a really bad PR move for a new dynasty to start by raping and pillaging their own capital as one of their first acts, Tywin himself had spent a lot of his life living in this city and wisely governing these people only to put the city to the sword whilst toppling the King, Aerys was the enemy,  not the people of Kings Landing as Jaime saw clearly when he saved them from the wildfire plot! Thoughts?.

[Ser Pearce]

In my head I can see several different possibilites.

1. To make the deaths of Elia, Aegon and Rhaenys seem a part of the sacking, and less like an intentional set of murders in case Robert or someone openly condemmed Tywin for it.

2. Tywin being petty. In my opinion, one of Tywin's greatest flaws was that he was overly petty and proud; Aerys had insulted him and mocked him time and time again, so sacking the city House Targaryen built was an act of petty revenge on Aerys.

3. To remind everyone he is Tywin Lannister, and that if you mess with him he'll come down on you hard. Sacking the largest city on the contient is a good way to get people to fear you.

[Trigger Warning]

Because 12,000 men marched into a city they knew was their enemy's. 

[Maester of Valyria]

It's possible (though I concede unlikely) that Tywin simply lost control over his soldiers. Unfortunately, rape and murder of innocents was a large part of medieval warfare; and it would have been very difficult for any commander to retain control over (I think) 12,000 men as they entered an enemy city filled with defenceless civilians.

[Kaibaman]

I think he was just letting off so much pent up aggression after many years of being unappreciated and treated shitty by his former boss.

[Paxter Redwyne]

3 minutes ago, Maester of Valyria said:

It's possible (though I concede unlikely) that Tywin simply lost control over his soldiers. Unfortunately, rape and murder of innocents was a large part of medieval warfare; and it would have been very difficult for any commander to retain control over (I think) 12,000 men as they entered an enemy city filled with defenceless civilians.

Yeah, just like he lost control over Gregor Clegane and Amory Lorch. 

 

[The Wolves]

He's a monster and that's what evil pieces of shit do. 

[Maester of Valyria]

1 minute ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

Yeah, just like he lost control over Gregor Clegane and Amory Lorch. 

 

I actually don't think that Tywin wanted Elia and her children dead: he knew that would be a massive blow to his own reputation and any attempts to form a peace. More likely he did actually lose control. His dialogue with Tyrion seems to confirm this:

"Then why did the Mountain kill her?"

"Because I did not tell him to spare her. I doubt I mentioned her at all. I had more pressing concerns. Ned Stark's van was rushing south from the Trident, and I feared it might come to swords between us. And it was in Aerys to murder Jaime, with no more cause than spite. That was the thing I feared most. That, and what Jaime himself might do." He closed a fist. "Nor did I yet grasp what I had in Gregor Clegane, only that he was huge and terrible in battle. The rape . . . even you will not accuse me of giving that command, I would hope. Ser Amory was almost as bestial with Rhaenys. I asked him afterward why it had required half a hundred thrusts to kill a girl of . . . two? Three? He said she'd kicked him and would not stop screaming. If Lorch had half the wits the gods gave a turnip, he would have calmed her with a few sweet words and used a soft silk pillow." His mouth twisted in distaste. "The blood was in him."

 

It could be seen either way, but my interpretation is that Lorch was not under direct orders to kill Rhaenys, but while Tywin may have shrugged off Lorch killing her in a calm manner, he found 'half a hundred thrusts' distasteful.

[Neds Secret]

12 minutes ago, Kaibaman said:

I think he was just letting off steam after many years of being unappreciated and treated shitty by his former boss.

Holy hell, you'd hate to hire too many employees who responded like this after they were let go.

[Neds Secret]

4 minutes ago, Maester of Valyria said:

I actually don't think that Tywin wanted Elia and her children dead: he knew that would be a massive blow to his own reputation and any attempts to form a peace. More likely he did actually lose control. His dialogue with Tyrion seems to confirm this:

"Then why did the Mountain kill her?"

"Because I did not tell him to spare her. I doubt I mentioned her at all. I had more pressing concerns. Ned Stark's van was rushing south from the Trident, and I feared it might come to swords between us. And it was in Aerys to murder Jaime, with no more cause than spite. That was the thing I feared most. That, and what Jaime himself might do." He closed a fist. "Nor did I yet grasp what I had in Gregor Clegane, only that he was huge and terrible in battle. The rape . . . even you will not accuse me of giving that command, I would hope. Ser Amory was almost as bestial with Rhaenys. I asked him afterward why it had required half a hundred thrusts to kill a girl of . . . two? Three? He said she'd kicked him and would not stop screaming. If Lorch had half the wits the gods gave a turnip, he would have calmed her with a few sweet words and used a soft silk pillow." His mouth twisted in distaste. "The blood was in him."

 

It could be seen either way, but my interpretation is that Lorch was not under direct orders to kill Rhaenys, but while Tywin may have shrugged off Lorch killing her in a calm manner, he found 'half a hundred thrusts' distasteful.

Yes, after rereading that passage of dialogue it would seem as if Tywin was a little bit disturbed by the manner of the Elias death and perhaps a little unimpressed with the incompetence of Lorchs murder of Rhaenys. If he is speaking truthfully it would appear as if he took no joy in the murder of Prince Rhaegars family, but it still was carried out in his name and whether it was necessary or not is open to hot debate. I still maintain that Sacking the city seemed unnecessarily cruel on the average small folk of the city and is a blight on his character, and as such I cannot see any real motivation for his harsh  treatment of the weak and the common people throughout the series especially for a man who supposedly dreamed of his son becoming a great Knight.

[dariopatke]

Because he is an strategic idiot who thinks he is the best battle commander.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

8 hours ago, dariopatke said:

Because he is an strategic idiot who thinks he is the best battle commander.

 

Where does he make this claim?

 

Sacks are what happened to medieval cities when they were taken by force and Kings Landing was a city that had to be taken by force. It would have been sacked by Tywin or by the rebel forces a few weeks later.

"So when the Targaryen host broke and ran, you gave the pursuit into my hands. The remnants of Rhaegar's army fled back to King's Landing. We followed. Aerys was in the Red Keep with several thousand loyalists. I expected to find the gates closed to us."

Opening the gates is not the same as surrendering, they were still loyalists and fighting broke out as soon as it became clear that Tywin was not there to assist them. Tywin had to take control of a city of almost half a million people. A city that consists of thousands Gold Cloaks, Targ loyalists, docks, gates, treasury, Small Council, Royal Family and King. He had to do this in hours before either the Rebels or the Reach Lords could get there.

Similar amounts of carnage would have happened to Kings Landing had the Rebels took it or had Renly or Stannis been successful.

"And if the castle should fall?"

"You'd like that, wouldn't you?" Cersei did not wait for a denial. "If I'm not betrayed by my own guards, I may be able to hold here for a time. Then I can go to the walls and offer to yield to Lord Stannis in person. That will spare us the worst. But if Maegor's Holdfast should fall before Stannis can come up, why then, most of my guests are in for a bit of rape, I'd say. And you should never rule out mutilation, torture, and murder at times like these."

 

 

[dariopatke]

Jaime, his son and pride was there. He could and should have pretended to he loyalist until he has his son and then hit them.

He made a potential crushing disaster when he marched his army on Tullys while Bobby was alive.

Another one when he marched to Westerlands and left KL and A LOT of Lannister in there.

He is the oposite of Robb Stark, Robb is great on battlefield, but terrible in outside it and Tywin is not that good in battlefield but briliant outside it.

[bloodofthedragon1995]

Tywin is a proud man. Aerys slighted him and Rhaegar married Elia. Tywin resented this. I think Tywin knew what would happen if he sacked a defenceless city... He let his 'mad dog' loose and he killed Elia, Rhaenys and possibly Aegon. That was why he sacked the city, to ensure their deaths and to give the new dynasty no rivals. The sacking of King's landing by his 12,000 soldiers was just a consequence of Tywin regaining his pride..

[thelittledragonthatcould]

36 minutes ago, dariopatke said:

Jaime, his son and pride was there. He could and should have pretended to he loyalist until he has his son and then hit them.

 How could he have done that? Don't you think the loyalist soldiers are not going to get suspicious when Tywin marches his entire army into the City and towards the Red Keep?

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He made a potential crushing disaster when he marched his army on Tullys while Bobby was alive.

Never happened. His army was in the Westerlands, within their own territory.

The Battle of the Golden Tooth (which sounds suspiciously like it took part in the Westelands) happened after Robert's death.

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Another one when he marched to Westerlands and left KL and A LOT of Lannister in there.

Calculated risk. It was a gamble but Stannis having a magic assasain meant that he took much shorter to capture Storm's End.

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He is the oposite of Robb Stark, Robb is great on battlefield, but terrible in outside it and Tywin is not that good in battlefield but briliant outside it.

How is he not that good? I'm not claiming he is the greatest in the series as I think Robert takes that honour, but to say someone who has lost one battle in his life is 'not that good is demonstrably false.

[Dorian Martell]

11 hours ago, Neds Secret said:

When the gates were opened to the Lannisters at the end of Roberts Rebellion why did Tywin sack Kings Landing?

Two things. 

1: He wanted to show his strength and power 

2: He saw the winning side and wanted to show that although he was a former supporter of the King, he no longer was and was willing to make sure the new king had no threat to his rule by members of the old dynasty 

[A spoon of knife and fork]

Because he felt personally insulted by Aerys.

[dariopatke]

Not entire army ofc, part of it and come as a friend and attack during night when Jaime is in safe.

What about ser Gregor's attacks?

Yes, but he could decide to abandon the siege and rush to KL, especially when Tywin is far away. What if Penrose yeilds? Gets betrayed (which I think is what actually happened)? If it comes to duel? There are whole bunch of things that could go wrong and Robb cant attack Lannisport and CR so risk is worth it.

His strategic descisions are far from superior. There are a lot of better than him, I didn't say he is bad, but not as good as people gove him credit for and Lannisters biggest friend is luck. Just tell me what if Stannis' fleet didn't go into storm? Oh yes, Tyrion dies, Cersei, Joff and Lancel,too. Tommen whereabouts are known via torture.

[Ruhail]

He pulled a much more explosive late Walder to suck up to Robert and get revenge on Aerys for all his slights

[thelittledragonthatcould]

21 minutes ago, dariopatke said:

Not entire army ofc, part of it and come as a friend and attack during night when Jaime is in safe.

He didn't have a night, he had hours.

21 minutes ago, dariopatke said:

What about ser Gregor's attacks?

The whole point of Gregor's attacks was that he did not wear his banners. It becomes a peasants word against a Knights.

At worst Gregor might have faced some kind of slap on the wrist from Robert. Tywin was in no danger.

21 minutes ago, dariopatke said:

Yes, but he could decide to abandon the siege and rush to KL, especially when Tywin is far away. What if Penrose yeilds? Gets betrayed (which I think is what actually happened)? If it comes to duel? There are whole bunch of things that could go wrong and Robb cant attack Lannisport and CR so risk is worth it.

Right, like I said it was a calculated risk. Any decision in warfare involving multiple sides is a calculated risk with a whole host of 'what ifs'.

I'm not sure how this makes him a poor commander? Do you not think any of the other great commanders in the series took calculated risks at times? Or do you think Tywins march West was the only such occasion?

21 minutes ago, dariopatke said:

His strategic descisions are far from superior.

Stop backtracking. I disagreed with you assertion that he 'was not good in the battlefield'.

21 minutes ago, dariopatke said:

There are a lot of better than him,

Robert is.

There are a few commanders who are on a similar level to him

I'm not really sure who you think is better than him. I'd love to see this list and the evidence for it.

21 minutes ago, dariopatke said:

 

I didn't say he is bad, but not as good as people gove him credit

Which people?

21 minutes ago, dariopatke said:

for and Lannisters biggest friend is luck.

All commanders have luck.

21 minutes ago, dariopatke said:

Just tell me what if Stannis' fleet didn't go into storm? Oh yes, Tyrion dies, Cersei, Joff and Lancel,too.

How is that down to luck? That was down to the defenders of Kings Landing.

21 minutes ago, dariopatke said:

 

Tommen whereabouts are known via torture.

Tywin and the Tyrells were hours away, not days. It is possible that Stannis first takes Kings Landing and then takes the Red Keep before Tywin gets there but there is zero chance he is then able to take Rosby as well.