Why did Tywin sack Kings Landing?

[dariopatke]

Than it is smarter to send Lorch or BC not a man who entire Realm knows he is. It is like a 911 without Porsche sigil, you all know it is Porsche.

Bad calculation I say. Very bad, way to many things could go wrong and he could lose so much.

Robert, Randyll, Robb, Stannis, Blackfish maybe. I was talking about things when it comes to battle, not including politics, forging alliances and other stuff where he is in the top class and probably the best in Westeros.

People on boards and in 7K.

If storm handt occured, Stannis wins, Tywin should calculate that in his risk.

Stannis could do it via Saladhor. And I if storm didnt happen Stannis would have days.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

5 minutes ago, dariopatke said:

Than it is smarter to send Lorch or BC not a man who entire Realm knows he is. It is like a 911 without Porsche sigil, you all know it is Porsche.

I don't think you are getting what happened. He wanted the Riverlords to suspect it was Tywin behind this, but he also wanted the plausible deniability.

Your original point was that he made a crushing mistake by sending an army to the Riverlands. I disagreed with it as

• his army did not attack the Riverlands till after Robert's death
• sending bandits to the Riverlands would not have resulted in a crushing defeat from Robert, his son-in-law. There may have been some minor repercussions, but far from crushing like you said.

5 minutes ago, dariopatke said:

Bad calculation I say. Very bad, way to many things could go wrong and he could lose so much.

No shit, that is what war entails.

5 minutes ago, dariopatke said:

Robert,

I agree, definitely superior.

5 minutes ago, dariopatke said:

Randyll,

Possibly a similar level. I am interested to see why you think he is superior?

5 minutes ago, dariopatke said:

Robb,

Not really better. He made some disastrous military calls from leaving his homeland undefended, poorly communicating with his subordinates and not being able to keep their loyalty.

And if you have such a problem with Tywin's calculated risk then how come you are OK with Robb travelling West without a game plan and only getting past the Golden Tooth thanks to his magical direwolf finding a hidden path that the Westerland troops did not know about?

At least be consistent with how you judge military leaders. Robb's whole campaign was based on taking risky gambits that all paid off.

5 minutes ago, dariopatke said:

Stannis,

Nope, not better.

5 minutes ago, dariopatke said:

Blackfish maybe.

Possibly. Exceptional leader of the outriders but I really don't think we have seen enough of him as a sole commander to say that he is superior to Tywin though he may well be.

5 minutes ago, dariopatke said:

I was talking about things when it comes to battle,

So was I. Logistics is a hugely important part of a battle commanders skill set, as is good communication, picking the right subordinates and the right strategies. But his biggest strength in battle is just how qiuckly he strikes and takes down his enemies before they can properly respond.

This is shown in how quickly he takes and dismantles the Tarbecks and Reynes before they get a proper chance to organize themselves.

The sacking of Kings Landing was hugely dishonourable but was an excellent military victory with Tywin able to not only quickly beat the Rebels to Kings Landing but take full control of the city in hours before Ned got there.

And then there is the military campaign in the Riverlands. A resounding military success

He smashed the Lords Vance and Piper at the Golden Tooth, and met the massed power of the Tullys under the walls of Riverrun. The lords of the Trident have been put to rout. Ser Edmure Tully was taken captive, with many of his knights and bannermen. Lord Blackwood led a few survivors back to Riverrun, where Jaime has them under siege. The rest fled to their own strongholds."

"Your father and I have been marching on each in turn," Ser Kevan said. "With Lord Blackwood gone, Raventree fell at once, and Lady Whent yielded Harrenhal for want of men to defend it. Ser Gregor burnt out the Pipers and the Brackens …"

 

that only came undone thanks to Politics rather than military strategy as Tywin underestimated Walder Frey.

 

In fact getting Walder to change sides was a political masterstoke from Robb's side and something Tywin had the power to stop had he initiated a deal with the Freys beforehand.

 

5 minutes ago, dariopatke said:

 

not including politics, forging alliances and other stuff where he is in the top class and probably the best in Westeros.

Well this is the problem, forging alliances, communicating, picking the right subordinates and keeping your men in line are all needed for great military commanders. Commanders who are poor, or even just adequate, at all of the above are not great military commanders.

5 minutes ago, dariopatke said:

People on boards and in 7K.

 

Which people in the boards?

I'm a big Tywin fan and yet am happy to concede that Robert is superior to him and there are a few on the same level as him.

And yeah, the people in the 7k have more information to judge his capabilities than we do, so if they rate him highly as a military commander then it is for good reason.

5 minutes ago, dariopatke said:

If storm handt occured, Stannis wins, Tywin should calculate that in his risk.

We have Tyrion, Stannis and the author saying that Storm's End should have taken much longer to fall. Stannis had magic on his side. Something pretty hard for Tywin to calcuate.

But again, I'm not seeing your point. I agreed it was risk. Military leaders occasionally have to take risks. Stannis was prepared to fight Renly's much larger army with his pitiful 5k. He took a risk on Mel, a huge risk that worked out.

5 minutes ago, dariopatke said:

Stannis could do it via Saladhor. And I if storm didnt happen Stannis would have days.

Thanks to magic.

[Neds Secret]

I would say that Rob was definitely a better battlefield commander because Robb won the battles against Tywin. Tywin however, was strategically a lot better than Robb because Tywin won the war  by using  a different strategy that Robb didn't see coming. Tywins observations of Tyrion are actually quite a good appraisal of his own self where he claims that Tyrion is an ill made spiteful little creature that does posess a certain low cunning, yet again more proof that Tyrion is actually Tywins real son, regardless of DNA theories 

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

5 hours ago, Dorian Martell said:

Two things. 

1: He wanted to show his strength and power 

2: He saw the winning side and wanted to show that although he was a former supporter of the King, he no longer was and was willing to make sure the new king had no threat to his rule by members of the old dynasty 

Yeah.  I got the sense this was adequately explained in the books.

[Paxter Redwyne]

17 hours ago, Maester of Valyria said:

I actually don't think that Tywin wanted Elia and her children dead: he knew that would be a massive blow to his own reputation and any attempts to form a peace. More likely he did actually lose control. His dialogue with Tyrion seems to confirm this:

"Then why did the Mountain kill her?"

"Because I did not tell him to spare her. I doubt I mentioned her at all. I had more pressing concerns. Ned Stark's van was rushing south from the Trident, and I feared it might come to swords between us. And it was in Aerys to murder Jaime, with no more cause than spite. That was the thing I feared most. That, and what Jaime himself might do." He closed a fist. "Nor did I yet grasp what I had in Gregor Clegane, only that he was huge and terrible in battle. The rape . . . even you will not accuse me of giving that command, I would hope. Ser Amory was almost as bestial with Rhaenys. I asked him afterward why it had required half a hundred thrusts to kill a girl of . . . two? Three? He said she'd kicked him and would not stop screaming. If Lorch had half the wits the gods gave a turnip, he would have calmed her with a few sweet words and used a soft silk pillow." His mouth twisted in distaste. "The blood was in him."

 

It could be seen either way, but my interpretation is that Lorch was not under direct orders to kill Rhaenys, but while Tywin may have shrugged off Lorch killing her in a calm manner, he found 'half a hundred thrusts' distasteful.

Tywin surely wanted to kill them with soft words and pillows, but nonetheless, tywin ordered to murder them. They were obstacles for robert taking throne and tywin knew it. It can be debatable that elia was also meant to kill from the beginning, but we know that tywin didn't liked her for stealing royal prince from her daghter cersei. Mayhaps he did not ordered to kill her, but he probably knew that sending amory and gregor will end with her death.

[LordPathera]

Before the Trident, Tywin was sitting out of the Rebellion since he didn't have anything to gain from joining either side.

Aerys and Tywin hated each other with Tywin noted as ignoring every raven that Aerys sent him. Also, Aerys was a rapist, insane, paranoid, murderous, torture-happy, pyromaniac tyrant. I'm surprised that the Tyrells willing sided with Aerys and the Dornish only did so because of marriage ties through Elia and her children.

However, when Rhaegar died and the Royal Army was defeated, all hope for a loyalist victory was lost. Therefore, Tywin judged that joining the Rebels was most beneficial since they were going to win the war and change the ruling regime of the 7 Kingdoms.

But as Tywin explains to Tyrion, he needed to make up for lost time. He'd come late to the war and needed to prove to Robert that his loyalty was legitimate. He had to display that House Lannister had forever forsaken the Targaryens once and for all.

So the Lion tricked the Dragon and then utterly murdered the Dragon in its own den...therefore, the Stag was satisfied and the Lion's power grew stronger in the wake of the shift in power.

[dariopatke]

Probably Mountain will die. For what?

Randyll, pperfect military record, he is the man that gets his job doneThey had ehough men out there, Manderlys have army, Boltons too, WF has some men,.. Karstark thing could not take dofferent path, but still this is not what I was talking about, I was talking about battlefield.

If GW didnt find path he ceetanly would not attack GT, maybe try to find another way, return, I dont know. The only big mistake is not informing Edmure of his plans.

How not? Vic, siege of SE, CB, yes Blackwater was a disaster but it was a bad luck too.

So Robb does the same thing with quick attacks. Yes but he risked Jaimes life. I really don't get how paranoid Aerys never suspected Jaime's loyalty.

didn't Jaime win at RR, I certanly need a reread.

Maybe we are not thinking about the same thing. I was going for coordinating millitary actions and leading men to war without politics.

I really don't know who exactly, but I have debated about him couple of times and I have general feeling his actions are popular. I like him too, more than many but not the most and it is because of his politic skills and his pride.

You got a point there, but Tywin didnt have a red woman to tell him everything will turn out OK if he marches to WL, just saying that really a lot of things could go wrong, not just magic.

What Thanks to magic?

[Knight Of Winter]

Because Tywin is a very petty person. Much of his controversial decisions can be traced to this.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

2 hours ago, dariopatke said:

Probably Mountain will die. For what?

eh? I presume this is in response to me but I have no idea were you jumped to the Mountain dying.

2 hours ago, dariopatke said:

Randyll, pperfect military record, he is the man that gets his job done

Wait, what? How is this evidence that he is superior at military command than Tywin? If you are basing it on getting the job done they both fall into that category.

Explain exactly why you think Tarly is superior at battle command to Tywin?

 

2 hours ago, dariopatke said:

 

They had ehough men out there, Manderlys have army, Boltons too, WF has some men,..

Well clearly they didnt. We get three major characters all complaining about not having enough men.

Rodrik Cassel: "Perhaps when Lord Bolton hears his tale, he will abandon his claim, but meantime we have Manderly knights and Dreadfort men killing one another in Hornwood forests, and I lack the strength to stop them."

Bran Stark: Bran looked around at the faces of those who remained, women and children and old men … and Hodor. The huge stableboy had a lost and frightened look to his face. "Hodor?" he said sadly.

Maester Luwin: "Your lord father took the cream of his guard to King's Landing, and your brother took the rest, along with all the likely lads for leagues around. Many will not come back to us, and we must needs find the men to take their places."

Robb clearly didn't leave enough men for the North to defend itself. That is part of military command and he failed pretty big.

2 hours ago, dariopatke said:

 

Karstark thing could not take dofferent path,

 Of course it could. We know it could have done as people were advising him not to kill Kastark and he refused. He had a choice and he picked wrong. 

2 hours ago, dariopatke said:

 

but still this is not what I was talking about, I was talking about battlefield.

And you seem to be a little naive if you don't think keeping the loyalty of your soliders on the battlefield counts.

The Riverlands was the battlefield and his decisions that turned many of his own men against him were done on the Battlefield and a military commander is not just about turning up for blood but the organization both before and after.

For example Stannis marching his army without the proper equipment to survive in the North was a poor military decision that effects the battlefield. Just because the decision was not made while in battle does not mean it is not part of the military command.

 

2 hours ago, dariopatke said:

If GW didnt find path he ceetanly would not attack GT, maybe try to find another way, return,

So he took a gamble, Precisely the thing you are giving Tywin shit for.

2 hours ago, dariopatke said:

 

I dont know. The only big mistake is not informing Edmure of his plans.

What plans? There was no plans. He went West to meet the Ironborn, that was the plan.

Robb would have no idea that the Ironborn were not coming till after the Battle of the Fords when news reached him about Winterfell.

2 hours ago, dariopatke said:

How not? Vic, siege of SE, CB, yes Blackwater was a disaster but it was a bad luck too.

They are comparable, but no Stannis is not superior.

I think his victory against Victarion was great though he did outnumber the Ironborn.

Seige of Storm's End was nothing special. He used magic to win, not military skill.

Castle Black was trained knights against malnourished smallfolk.

2 hours ago, dariopatke said:

So Robb does the same thing with quick attacks. Yes but he risked Jaimes life. I really don't get how paranoid Aerys never suspected Jaime's loyalty.

What does this have to do with the discussion.

2 hours ago, dariopatke said:

didn't Jaime win at RR, I certanly need a reread.

Do you not think Tywin coordinated that? Or Tywin assembled these armies and told Jaime to do whatever he pleased with them?

2 hours ago, dariopatke said:

Maybe we are not thinking about the same thing. I was going for coordinating millitary actions and leading men to war without politics.

As was I. Communication is a huge part of military command as is picking and trusting the right subordinates.

2 hours ago, dariopatke said:

 

What Thanks to magic?

Stannis was only able to quickly attack Kings Landing because of magic. Had he not used magic he would have taken longer.

 

[Neds Secret]

@thelittledragonthatcould all I can say in Robbs defence is that when Robb first left the north he would not have been able to see the danger of the Iron Born invading and perhaps his biggest miscalculation was sending Theon back in the hope of adding Balons ships to his campaign. Robbs honor would have precluded him betraying a friend as Theon betrayed him and it cost him dearly.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

11 minutes ago, Neds Secret said:

@thelittledragonthatcould all I can say in Robbs defence is that when Robb first left the north he would not have been able to see the danger of the Iron Born invading and perhaps his biggest miscalculation was sending Theon back in the hope of adding Balons ships to his campaign. Robbs honor would have precluded him betraying a friend as Theon betrayed him and it cost him dearly.

Sure. I'm sure in time he would have definitely learnt from this kind of mistake. Had he lived he may have gone on to become another Cregan Stark and surpassed all the other military leaders of ASOIAF.

I didn't call him poor, just pointed out that he too made a fair few costly mistakes with his military command. Most commanders do.

[John Doe]

Back then a city that resisted was usually sacked, that was pretty much the standard procedure; once the fighting happened behind your walls you couldn't excpect mercy. And what most people forget is that there where still "thousands" of Targaryen supports inside of King's Landing willing to fight. They did not surrender when they opened their gates to Tywin.

[Dolorous22]

In order to satisfy his new friends, he needed his hands bloody. He needed to be complicit. 

[Trigger Warning]

2 hours ago, John Doe said:

Back then a city that resisted was usually sacked, that was pretty much the standard procedure; once the fighting happened behind your walls you couldn't excpect mercy. And what most people forget is that there where still "thousands" of Targaryen supports inside of King's Landing willing to fight. They did not surrender when they opened their gates to Tywin.

Exactly, the question should be why did he attack King's Landing. It was sacked because he attacked the city.

Opening the gates is much the same as a breach if there's armed resistance, once they're flooding in they're in.

[Sullen]

10 hours ago, dariopatke said:

How not? Vic, siege of SE, CB, yes Blackwater was a disaster but it was a bad luck too.

How was the Blackwater due to bad luck?

He appointed a shit admiral due to nepotism, didn't bother to scout the terrain properly, and turned his back to a huge likely hostile host that could crush him at anytime. Not only that, but taking King's Landing would have been entirely pointless, as he doesn't have any way to feed or control its unruly population who would have turned against him the moment he set foot into the city... if anything, King's Landing should have been the very last thing he should have tried to hold.

The Blackwater was disastrous on both a strategic and tactical level, an unbelievably stupid move on the part of someone who considers himself one of the greatest commanders that ever was.

[Knute]

Aerys insulted Tywin lannister by outright refusing to marry Cersei to his son Rhaegar. Tywin doesn't take insults very well as shown by the annihilation of the Tarbecks and Reynes.

[LordPathera]

4 hours ago, John Doe said:

Back then a city that resisted was usually sacked, that was pretty much the standard procedure; once the fighting happened behind your walls you couldn't excpect mercy. And what most people forget is that there where still "thousands" of Targaryen supports inside of King's Landing willing to fight. They did not surrender when they opened their gates to Tywin.

Of course they didn't surrender, they thought Tywin had come as an ally to help fight against the rebels. In fact, Tywin declared that he'd come to aid the king. King's Landing was deceived and betrayed. The whole "standard procedure" argument doesn't wash away the brutality of Tywin's actions or the deception employed. And that's coming from someone who understands Tywin's perspective, but that doesn't mean that he's morally excused.

There's a clear difference between being breached by an enemy and opening the gates to a friend only to have that friend surprise slaughter you.

 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Because he needed a grandiose act of his loyalty and killing the heirs while sacking a city was an act like that.

[marsyao]

On 2/28/2016 at 7:34 AM, Maester of Valyria said:

It's possible (though I concede unlikely) that Tywin simply lost control over his soldiers. Unfortunately, rape and murder of innocents was a large part of medieval warfare; and it would have been very difficult for any commander to retain control over (I think) 12,000 men as they entered an enemy city filled with defenceless civilians.

More accurately, 12,000 men marched into a city filled with defenceless civilians and vast wealth, no commanders on earth could control his men at this point

[Knight Of Winter]

4 hours ago, John Doe said:

Back then a city that resisted was usually sacked, that was pretty much the standard procedure; once the fighting happened behind your walls you couldn't excpect mercy. And what most people forget is that there where still "thousands" of Targaryen supports inside of King's Landing willing to fight. They did not surrender when they opened their gates to Tywin.

Pray, who were these "thousands" of supporters? Shouldn't they have been at Trident instead - Rhaegar could have put few thousand extra soldiers to good use and maybe won the war.

I really doubt there was any soldiers in KL other than Gold Cloaks and a few household knights, and all of them they were outnumbered by Tywin's army at least 5:1, maybe more. But no, instead of quickly dealing with whoever was fanatical enough to fight for Aerys at that point, Tywin just had to brutally sack a city, and kill&rape numerous civilians. This passage truly shows Tywin in all his glory:

Quote

"Your Grace," said Jorah Mormont, "I saw King's Landing after the Sack. Babes were butchered that day as well, and old men, and children at play. More women were raped than you can count. There is a savage beast in every man, and when you hand that man a sword or spear and send him forth to war, the beast stirs.