Significance of House Blackwood and Bloodraven's agenda

[Macgregor of the North]

18 hours ago, Gwindor said:

I'm not sure this hasn't been discussed before, but I couldn't find an approach on the subject from this particular point of view.

Melissa Blackwood gave birth to Aegon IV's bastard Brynden Rivers in 175 AC. During the reign of three following monarchs Brynden occupied important positions at court:

• Daeron II (184 - 209 AC): Brynden Rivers is Master of Whisperers (probably not for the whole reign, maybe since after the Rebellion), and one of Daeron's most prominent supporters during the First Blackfyre Rebellion.
• Aerys I (209 - 221 AC): Brynden is named Hand of the King and de facto rules the Seven Kingdoms during all twelve years of Aerys's reading reign.
• Maekar I (221 - 233 AC): Brynden keeps his position as Hand, although probably has somewhat less power now as Maekar is a stronger king than Aerys.

In 220 AC, Aegon V marries Betha Blackwood, and all the following Targaryens and, later, Baratheons, are born from their marriage, in particular Jaehaerys II, Aerys II, Queen Rhaella, Rhaegar, his children Rhaenys and Aegon, Viserys, Daenerys, (if R + L = J, then also Jon Snow) and also, through Ormund Baratheon's marriage to Rhaelle Targaryen, Steffon, Robert, Stannis, Renly, Shireen, Edric Storm, Mya Stone, Gendry, and other Robert's bastards.

Willam Stark, the late Lord Rickard's grandfather, married Melantha Blackwood, although we don't know exactly when. Willam died in 226 AC, and by then already had two children by Melantha. (Here I need some help from timeline experts. Could anyone tell about when this marriage could have happened? That portion of the history of the Starks is rather unclear.) Anyway, from their marriage all the current Starks trace their descent, in particular Rickard, Brandon, Eddard, Lyanna, Benjen, Robb, Sansa, Arya, Bran, Rickon, and Jon Snow (if R + L = J, then he's kind of twice as much Blackwood as the others). Also, Melantha's daughter Jocelyn married a Royce, and her three daughters married into Houses Waynwood, Corbray, and maybe Templeton, so there might be Blackwood descendants in the Vale (maybe even Anya Waynwood or Lyn Corbray).

We don't know exactly how Melissa, Betha, and Melantha were related, but I think it's safe to assume they were related. So all the characters listed above in bold italic are blood-related through Blackwood blood. In a society with different naming traditions, they might all have been called Blackwoods.

Also, the two later marriages happened around the time when Bloodraven, a son from the earliest of the three marriages, had significant political power and could have facilitated those marriages. After all, it's a rather big deal for a relatively minor House to have two women married into Houses Targaryen and Stark at around the same time.

So, a Blackwood descendant, heavily rumored (and actually confirmed) to possess magical powers, comes to an important political position and organizes two extremely advantageous marriages for his maternal family.

Was he doing it just for political advantage? I doubt it. It seems to me Bloodraven must have had a 'magical' agenda even back then. And it looks likely he was kind of... well, breeding.

Bloodraven waits for Bran to come to him, and when Bran comes he says it is "almost too late". He also admits to having watched the lives of Bran's father and grandfather before him. It appears he was expecting a (Brandon?) Stark with specific abilities to be born of Melantha's bloodline, but wasn't sure exactly when, or even in which generation. (I also like the theory that Bloodraven planted Old Nan in Winterfell to look after this expected Stark and educate him in northern lore from the earliest age in form of fairy-tales. And she grew ancient waiting, and the expected Stark still remained to be born ("all crows are liars").)

Now remember TPtwP prophecy. Maester Aemon used to believe Rhaegar would be the Promised Prince, and Rhaegar believed the same, but later they changed their minds in favor of Rhaegar's son. Later yet, Aemon comes to believe Daenerys is actually the Promised Prince[ss], and she finally brings the dragons back into the world. As Brynden was on the Wall with Aemon for almost twenty years, I think it's likely they discussed the issue. And it seems that again, Bloodraven was expecting a Targaryen with specific abilities to be born of Betha's bloodline, but wasn't sure exactly when.

Funnily, this looks to me like a crude form of genetic engineering possible with medieval level of science and technology: just breed and wait and hope the desired traits manifest in some generation. And I'm mentioning this mainly because GRRM has previously written a lot of stories about genetic engineering, and it would be fun if he included a fantasy equivalent in ASOIAF.

Additional points to support this idea:

1. That the whole lot of aforementioned characters are in fact family is not even a theory, it's a fact. They are relatives and, coincidentally(?) they are the first groups of characters we are introduced to in the beginning of the books. Almost all the initial protagonists - Blackwoods. Almost all the magic-related characters in Westeros - Blackwoods. The Blackwood blood seems the very reason magic is returning to Westeros.
2. Although House Blackwood has played only an ostensibly minor role in the books so far, the special effort GRRM has made to make it stand out among Tully bannermen is palpable. Their keeping the Old Gods south of the Neck, their sigil, their castle, AND their current Lord Tytos, with his raven feather cloak and bright inlaid armor, yellow or scarlet. We are constantly reminded about House Blackwood. We even had a POV dedicated to the surrender of Raventree Hall to Jaime Lannister, with a great view on the castle, their weirwoods and ravens, as well as an emphasis on the House history.
3. Bloodraven is central to the whole plot, it seems. But we definitely don't know everything about him and his agenda, so it's only logical to expect a revelation about his much greater role in the books than was previously believed.

So, was it Brynden Rivers who made the current Starks and Targaryens the way they are?

Any thoughts?

Hi, my Stark timeline Pt.2 has already been linked to this with a Willam birth date of 197-201AC (possibly).

I also did Pt.1 which had a Willam birth date of 192-196AC (possibly).

if it helps.

I'm gonna have a proper read of this thread on my break today, I'm interested in all things Blackwood.

[Lord Wraith]

18 hours ago, Beorn Snow said:

I kshare this opinion.

Blackwoods are secretly the most important familyline, we are just not aware of it because it´s all matrilineal.

Having the "magical powers" in the blood come from a matrilineal has always made a lot of sense to me. Would explain Targ incest and why the Stark Kings always married the daughters of their conquered foes. Maybe why Cregan Stark settled for a Blackwood instead of a Targ princess.

http://branvras.free.fr/HuisClos/Queen.html  BranVras has written a bit about it.

18 hours ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Great Blackwood Conspiracy? I would like that. However I don't believe that the Blackwood blood in the resent Targ line (Jon and Dany) is enough to give them special powers.

LML mentioned something on the History of Westeros podcast about Blackwood and Dayne blood in the modern Targ line.

Maeker married a Lady Dayne and had Egg/Aegon V.

Aegon V married a Lady Blackwood. For here the main line is all Targ incest, carrying a mix of Targ, Blackwood, and Dayne.

Jaerherys and Shaera then Aeys and Rhaelle

 

18 hours ago, Beorn Snow said:

Blackwoods, Daynes and Hightowers. There is a pattern of First-men ancient houses that are shaping the story, by what they´ve done in the past or might be doing off-scene. I get the feeling we will never know all, but we´ll see more of them in the next book.

I keep wondering about the oldest First Men houses. I keep wondering if there are 13 of them. 13 being the number of companions of the Last Hero who was a Stark, Dayne, or Blackwood probably.

13 hours ago, Beorn Snow said:

If it turns out Melisandre is a secret Blackwood/Targaryen/Bloodraven descendant then pretty much all magic users in the series apart from people associated with Marwyn, would be Blackwoods.
 

It´s a crackpot, but a crackpot with a few arguments.

 

[norwaywolf123]

So the Valyrians and FIrstmen have magic, but what does the Andals or Ghiscari for that sake have?

[Beorn Snow]

1 hour ago, Lord Wraith said:

Having the "magical powers" in the blood come from a matrilineal has always made a lot of sense to me. Would explain Targ incest and why the Stark Kings always married the daughters of their conquered foes. Maybe why Cregan Stark settled for a Blackwood instead of a Targ princess.

http://branvras.free.fr/HuisClos/Queen.html  BranVras has written a bit about it.

LML mentioned something on the History of Westeros podcast about Blackwood and Dayne blood in the modern Targ line.

Maeker married a Lady Dayne and had Egg/Aegon V.

Aegon V married a Lady Blackwood. For here the main line is all Targ incest, carrying a mix of Targ, Blackwood, and Dayne.

Jaerherys and Shaera then Aeys and Rhaelle

 

I keep wondering about the oldest First Men houses. I keep wondering if there are 13 of them. 13 being the number of companions of the Last Hero who was a Stark, Dayne, or Blackwood probably.

 

Let´s see if we can come up with 13 companions for a last hero. (There are some people into an idea of Ice and Dawn having been swapped, that Jon would wield sword of morning or something of that kind, I´m not sure about that but ...)

So we have:
1. Stark
2. Dayne.
3. Blackwood.
4. Royce. (to remember).
5. Hightower.
So far the regions represented are: North, Reach, Vale, (not the Riverlands because Blackwoods originate in the north I think ...)

Some could be extinct. (In the male-line)
6. Durandon. (There are links between Bran the Builder and Storm´s End, at least legendary links. Baratheons do carry their heritage).
7. Mudd. (The old riverland kings, some of their blood is now carried by Starks, and I imagine the crannogmen).
8. Green? (Some descendant of Garth Greenhands? What old reach-houses could fit I wonder ...)
9.Casterlys. (Noone from Westerlands so far).

Northern houses could be disproportionally represented couldn´t they?

10. Boltons. (Because come on!)
11. Umbers, Flints or Ryswells? (Could be that the north is more represented, don´t know)

Other candidates:
12. Yronwoods? (The name is a bit eerie).
13. What´s the oldes iron islands house?

[direpupy]

1 hour ago, Lord Wraith said:

I keep wondering about the oldest First Men houses. I keep wondering if there are 13 of them. 13 being the number of companions of the Last Hero who was a Stark, Dayne, or Blackwood probably.

 

Well there is the fact that Garth Greenhand has exactly 13 named children in WoIaF and one of those is said to be the ancestor of Brandon the Builder. So maybe you could work from there.

[Lord Wraith]

1 hour ago, direpupy said:

Well there is the fact that Garth Greenhand has exactly 13 named children in WoIaF and one of those is said to be the ancestor of Brandon the Builder. So maybe you could work from there.

Nice. I will check that out later.

[The Wondering Wolf]

4 hours ago, direpupy said:

Well there is the fact that Garth Greenhand has exactly 13 named children in WoIaF and one of those is said to be the ancestor of Brandon the Builder. So maybe you could work from there.

If you include Brandon of the Bloody Blade, there are fourteen children.  

[King Viserys Targaryen IV]

I too have tried to figure out the connection to House Blackwood

I am not sure what exactly it means but the things that stand out to me are:

Daenerys' Great Grandfather married a Blackwood, and since that union the Targaryens have married Brother to sister. Meaning theoretically Daenerys should be should have the same amount of Blackwood DNA as her Grandfather/ Grandmother and her Father/ Mother. (I know it discounts the families BEFORE the Blackwood/ Targaryen marriage but for ease of the math say 50% Blackwood/ 50% Targaryen)

Jon Snow's Great Grandfather also married a Blackwood, but he would inherit much more Blackwood DNA from Rhaegar than from the Stark line. So while Jon would have 2 Blackwood ancestors, being that the Starks did not intermarry brother to sister like the Targaryens did the Blackwood DNA would much more diluted. Rickard did marry his cousin, but Rickard's wife did not have any Blackwood blood.

If Tyrion is the bastard of Aerys, than he would have Blackwood DNA as well. Being that I can not find any Blackwood marriages in the Lannister family line, Tyrion would have roughly half the Blackwood DNA that Daenerys has, and only slightly less than Jon

Just starting at the Great Grandparents DNA, Daenerys would have @ 50% , Jon would have @ 31.25% and Tyrion would have @ 25%.

 

And one other point, if fAegon is a Blackfyre, I can not find any Blackwood marriages in his ancestry.

[Jak Scaletongue]

Targs have married a few other First Men houses in the past.  Hightowers are ones I haven't seen mentioned yet, though.  I've seen others mention Daynes.  They've also married Royce's and Arryn's as well. (Yes, I know, Arryn's are Andals - but with all the likely intermarriages between the Vale Andals and the Vale FM, there's likely as much FM blood in the Arryn's as Andal blood in the Royce's).

 

21 hours ago, Beorn Snow said:

If it turns out Melisandre is a secret Blackwood/Targaryen/Bloodraven descendant then pretty much all magic users in the series apart from people associated with Marwyn, would be Blackwoods.
 

It´s a crackpot, but a crackpot with a few arguments.

Well, we don't have any clue about Marwyn's origins....it's just as likely he's a Blackwood (bastard, maybe) as anything else at this point!

16 hours ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

I see your point, but I can't imagine such a society.  

 

Only because we and they are so steeped in patriarchy! Some Native American tribes were exclusively matrilineal until us white folks "fixed" them (apparently...). There are plenty of example worldwide, but it's safe to say it varied from region to region. (I went on a Wiki hunt while typing - very informative!  Just search Matrilineal).

13 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

I'm not one for wild speculation, but the 1st thought that crossed my mind when reading your post was:The Blackwoods are The Others.   I'm laughing at myself, but I too, just recently brought up that deal with all the other tree people and BR supposedly the Last Greenseer.   Doesn't pass the smell test yet, does it?   How come those other tree guys can't speak?   Someone is being played.   If BR is as powerful as supposed he may be the player and there may be some evil to his agenda.  If the Blackwoods as Warg Kings are connected to The Others, BR may simply be caught up in the wrongness of the family agenda.    All I am certain of is BR's former loyalty.    Once he went to the Wall information became scarce---dammit, Aemon should have been able to give some hint or direction about this guy.   I'm hoping for a lost journal.   We simply don't know enough yet though conversations like this certainly open a reader up to all sorts of previously unknowns.

 

13 hours ago, b00gieman said:

So I'm the only one here who sees that Bloodraven is being played in his own house?  There is a nest of COTF enthroned just like him in another part of his cave and he really believes that he is the "Last Greenseer"?  He is being played.  The question is what do they really want?

Just curious - is there any indication that the group Bran sees through Hodor are still alive (semi-alive; like Bloodraven, can they talk?).  Could that group have been the ones to teach Bloodraven, and now they're dead (like, truly dead) and their bodies just haven't finished decomposing into the trees?  In my head I'm picturing this group as "further along" than Bloodraven, then BR (semi-dead/live), then Bran (who's very much alive). Like, their consciousness has now left their brains and is in the tree and the tree is still slowly absorbing their bodies.  Whereas Bloodraven's consciousness is still in his own brain.  And Bran's both still in his own head *and* not part of the tree yet.

Does any of that rambling make sense?

[The Wondering Wolf]

3 minutes ago, Jak Scaletongue said:

Only because we and they are so steeped in patriarchy!

Actually that's not the reason.  OP said  in a different society all the guys he mentioned would be called Blackwood. But that just would't work in practise. The Blackwood name would just continue through women, so as soon as a male Blackwood marries and fathers children, they wouldn't be called Blackwoods anymore. Just in the one and only "Blackwood Society" maybe.  

[Gwindor]

8 minutes ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

Actually that's not the reason.  OP said  in a different society all the guys he mentioned would be called Blackwood. But that just would't work in practise. The Blackwood name would just continue through women, so as soon as a male Blackwood marries and fathers children, they wouldn't be called Blackwoods anymore. Just in the one and only "Blackwood Society" maybe.  

Exactly. Willam's son Edwyle would be Blackwood in a martilineal society, but Rickard would be Locke. So all the guys mentioned would be called Blackwood only in a hypothetical, arbitrary-naming-convention society. I only meant that genetically they all are Blackwoods in the same sense as all Brandon the Builder's descendants are Starks, and all of Aegon I's are Targaryens.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

8 hours ago, Lord Wraith said:

LML mentioned something on the History of Westeros podcast about Blackwood and Dayne blood in the modern Targ line.

Maeker married a Lady Dayne and had Egg/Aegon V.

Aegon V married a Lady Blackwood. For here the main line is all Targ incest, carrying a mix of Targ, Blackwood, and Dayne.

Jaerherys and Shaera then Aeys and Rhaelle

I don't know about the podcast but I do know about the First Men influence on the current line of the Targs. Which makes me wonder maybe Dany's magic for bringing the dragons back have nothing to do with the Valyrians but in reality its a power of the First Men.

[Gwindor]

38 minutes ago, Jak Scaletongue said:

Targs have married a few other First Men houses in the past.  Hightowers are ones I haven't seen mentioned yet, though.  I've seen others mention Daynes.  They've also married Royce's and Arryn's as well. (Yes, I know, Arryn's are Andals - but with all the likely intermarriages between the Vale Andals and the Vale FM, there's likely as much FM blood in the Arryn's as Andal blood in the Royce's).

The Hightower Targaryens have all died during or shortly after the Dance of Dragons. There were only a few of them: Aegon II, Helaena, Aemond, Daeron, Jaehaera, Jaehaerys, and Maelor. So there hasn't been Hightower blood in any Targaryens for more than a century and a half. The Royces don't count for the same reasons, but the Arryns do.

The only non-Valyrian blood that still runs through the currently living Targaryens' veins comes from Houses Arryn, Martell, Dayne, and Blackwood.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

4 minutes ago, Gwindor said:

The Hightower Targaryens have all died during or shortly after the Dance of Dragons. There were only a few of them: Aegon II, Helaena, Aemond, Daeron, Jaehaera, Jaehaerys, and Maelor. So there hasn't been Hightower blood in any Targaryens for more than a century and a half. The Royces don't count for the same reasons, but the Arryns do.

The only non-Valyrian blood that still runs through the currently living Targaryens' veins comes from Houses Arryn, Martell, Dayne, and Blackwood.

I don't know if it counts but after Dance we have at least six people with both Hightower and Targ blood but as Ned told to Jon at the series "You may not have my name but you have my blood".

[The Prince of Magpies]

11 minutes ago, Gwindor said:

The Hightower Targaryens have all died during or shortly after the Dance of Dragons. There were only a few of them: Aegon II, Helaena, Aemond, Daeron, Jaehaera, Jaehaerys, and Maelor. So there hasn't been Hightower blood in any Targaryens for more than a century and a half. The Royces don't count for the same reasons, but the Arryns do.

The only non-Valyrian blood that still runs through the currently living Targaryens' veins comes from Houses Arryn, Martell, Dayne, and Blackwood.

But there has been Targaryen blood in Hightowers through Rhaena's (Daemon's daughter) marriage through Garmund Hightower and the 6 daughters they had. Some member of this forum (Lord Varys maybe?) posited that these daughters ended up marrying into the incongruously 'minor' houses that Daeron II's children marry into (Dondarrion, Dayne and Penrose). 

[Jak Scaletongue]

1 hour ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

Actually that's not the reason.  OP said  in a different society all the guys he mentioned would be called Blackwood. But that just would't work in practise. The Blackwood name would just continue through women, so as soon as a male Blackwood marries and fathers children, they wouldn't be called Blackwoods anymore. Just in the one and only "Blackwood Society" maybe.  

 

56 minutes ago, Gwindor said:

Exactly. Willam's son Edwyle would be Blackwood in a martilineal society, but Rickard would be Locke. So all the guys mentioned would be called Blackwood only in a hypothetical, arbitrary-naming-convention society. I only meant that genetically they all are Blackwoods in the same sense as all Brandon the Builder's descendants are Starks, and all of Aegon I's are Targaryens.

I was focusing more on the society as a whole rather than the names within the society!  But yea, following contemporary naming conventions, they wouldn't have "Blackwood" as their name.  But who knows - if we're theoretically thinking of a completely different society, then it's entirely possible naming conventions would be altered as well.  Naming conventions are very societal - if you change the whole society and culture, you'd be looking at a change in naming conventions too.  We share very little in common with Romans when it comes to naming conventions, and our societies today have more in common with the Romans than with matrilineal societies.  So who knows how they'd go about naming their kids if Westeros was exclusively matrilineal.

I just kind of went down a rabbit hole, now and before.  The weirdest things fascinate me, and naming conventions are one of many!  I could spend a lot of time in this particular rabbit hole - but seeing as it's essentially irrelevant, I won't!

[Jak Scaletongue]

32 minutes ago, Gwindor said:

The Hightower Targaryens have all died during or shortly after the Dance of Dragons. There were only a few of them: Aegon II, Helaena, Aemond, Daeron, Jaehaera, Jaehaerys, and Maelor. So there hasn't been Hightower blood in any Targaryens for more than a century and a half. The Royces don't count for the same reasons, but the Arryns do.

The only non-Valyrian blood that still runs through the currently living Targaryens' veins comes from Houses Arryn, Martell, Dayne, and Blackwood.

 

18 minutes ago, The Prince of Magpies said:

But there has been Targaryen blood in Hightowers through Rhaena's (Daemon's daughter) marriage through Garmund Hightower and the 6 daughters they had. Some member of this forum (Lord Varys maybe?) posited that these daughters ended up marrying into the incongruously 'minor' houses that Daeron II's children marry into (Dondarrion, Dayne and Penrose). 

Yeah, I was just listing off FM I knew had married into the Targs from beginning to end.  But as Prince of Magpies points out, what about the FM houses that Targs married into?  There's Targ blood in the Hightowers.  Is there Targ blood in the Royce's or Arryn's still?  Are there other FM houses that Targ women were married into?  Cause if we're speculating that it's the female line that carries these "special" genes/whatnot then it's not *just* the FM women who have married into the Targs that matter, but also the Targ women who have married into FM houses.  If a Blackwood woman marrying a Targ has implications, then wouldn't a Targ woman marrying a Blackwood have similar implications? (I can't think of a Targ woman who *did* marry a Blackwood, but I may be wrong - it's merely example purposes only).

[Jon's Queen Consort]

12 minutes ago, Jak Scaletongue said:

 

Yeah, I was just listing off FM I knew had married into the Targs from beginning to end.  But as Prince of Magpies points out, what about the FM houses that Targs married into?  There's Targ blood in the Hightowers.  Is there Targ blood in the Royce's or Arryn's still?  Are there other FM houses that Targ women were married into?  Cause if we're speculating that it's the female line that carries these "special" genes/whatnot then it's not *just* the FM women who have married into the Targs that matter, but also the Targ women who have married into FM houses.  If a Blackwood woman marrying a Targ has implications, then wouldn't a Targ woman marrying a Blackwood have similar implications? (I can't think of a Targ woman who *did* marry a Blackwood, but I may be wrong - it's merely example purposes only).

As far as I recall Aemma was Daella's only child and the Royce marriage, if you mean Daemon's and Rhea, hadn't produced any child.

 

Also there might are some other HightowerTargaryen descendants from Aemond's Alys' union.

[King Viserys Targaryen IV]

1 hour ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

I don't know about the podcast but I do know about the First Men influence on the current line of the Targs. Which makes me wonder maybe Dany's magic for bringing the dragons back have nothing to do with the Valyrians but in reality its a power of the First Men.

To me, Daenerys blood has nothing to do with hatching the dragons. I think she just stumbled on the right Blood Magic to hatch the eggs. Death for life and all that.

Now the dragons bonding to her afterwards and her riding Drogon has to do with her Targaryen blood.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

1 minute ago, King Viserys Targaryen IV said:

To me, Daenerys blood has nothing to do with hatching the dragons. I think she just stumbled on the right Blood Magic to hatch the eggs. Death for life and all that.

Now the dragons bonding to her afterwards and her riding Drogon has to do with her Targaryen blood.

I am torn between MMD's spell and somehow Dany's powers. However I believe that riding Drogon and bonding with Drogon as being two different things. The riding is a Targ thing and bonding is a First Men thing.