Significance of House Blackwood and Bloodraven's agenda

[Lord Wraith]

2 hours ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

I don't know about the podcast but I do know about the First Men influence on the current line of the Targs. Which makes me wonder maybe Dany's magic for bringing the dragons back have nothing to do with the Valyrians but in reality its a power of the First Men.

Certainly possible. I have read theories on here that Thoros power also comes from the Old Gods and not Rh'llor. I don't think Thoros has First Men blood. Bloodlines are important, I'm just not sure how important.

2 hours ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

Actually that's not the reason.  OP said  in a different society all the guys he mentioned would be called Blackwood. But that just would't work in practise. The Blackwood name would just continue through women, so as soon as a male Blackwood marries and fathers children, they wouldn't be called Blackwoods anymore. Just in the one and only "Blackwood Society" maybe.  

Blackwood Society sounds like a good name for a band.

[Gwindor]

1 hour ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

But as Prince of Magpies points out, what about the FM houses that Targs married into?

Let's see what we know so far.

The first post-Conquest Targaryen women who might have married into other houses were Rhalla and Aerea, Kind Aenys' granddaughters by his firstborn daughter Rhaena and his firstborn son Aegon. But there's no information about them.

First Men blood, Durrandon blood in particular, seems to be first introduced to House Targaryen via Jaehaerys' son Aemon's marriage to Jocelyn Baratheon, from which Princess Rhaenys was born, who married the Sea Snake. Of their issue, only their granddaughters Rhaena and Baela survived the Dance. Baela married Oakenfist, and the only notable effect of this seems to be that from then on a small portion of Durrandon blood was in every Velaryon (I mean the main branch of the family). Rhaena married into House Hightower and had six daughters we know nothing about, as has been noted in previous posts.

The main branch of House Targaryen, however, didn't inherit Durrandon blood.

Jaehaerys' daughter Daella married Rodrik Arryn. The only child of this marriage we know of is Aemma Arryn, first wife of Viserys I. Arryn blood (though it's not exactly First Men blood) was passed on to the future generations of Targaryens through Rhaenyra and her sons with Daemon. It is, however, unknown whether Rodrik and Daella had other children who could pass Targaryen blood on to future generations of House Arryn.

Aegon III marries Daenaera Velaryon, but that doesn't bring Durrandon blood back to House Targaryen, as Daenaera doesn't descend from Baela Targaryen. So, Daeron I, Baelor I, Rhaena, Daena and Elaena had only Arryn blood apart from Valyrian blood. Daeron and Baelor left no issue, Rhaena as well, it seems.

Elaena left lots of descendants. She was married to Ossifer Plumm (First Men blood), but the parentage of her son Viserys is somewhat unclear. Anyway, Brown Ben seems to descend from Elaena. Later, Elaena married Ronnel Penrose, and had four children with him, but again, we know nothing about them. Also, I don't know whether House Penrose is First Men or Andal. And Elaena's natural son with Oakenfist later founded House Longwaters.

Curiously, we are not sure about Oakenfist's father: he was either Laenor or Corlys Velaryon. In the former case, he had some Durrandon blood through his half-Baratheon grandmother, and therefore their children with Elaena, House Longwaters may have Valyrian, Durrandon, and Arryn blood. 

The only child of Daena we know of is Daemon Blackfyre. Again, Valyrian + Arryn blood. The Blackfyres were extinguished in the male line, but likely there are still descendants of Daemon's daughter. Maybe there was some issue from the marriage of Bittersteel and Calla Blackfyre, in which case they would have Valyrian, Arryn, and Bracken blood.

Then we have Aegon IV's daughter Daenerys, who married into House Martell and presumably passed on her genes to the future generations of the Princes of Dorne. At the same time, Martell blood enters House Targaryen through Daeron II's marriage. So, now both Targaryens and Martells have Valyrian, Arryn and Martell blood.

Now to Daeron's children. Baelor married Jena Dondarrion, but all their issue perished during the Great Spring Sickness. Aerys had no issue. Rhaegel wed Alys Arryn, but he already had Arryn blood. Of their children, only Daenora had a son with Aerion Brightflame, Maegor. We don't know what happened to him (but I personally like the idea the Tattered Prince is Maegor).

Finally, Maekar married Dyanna Dayne (by the way, Aerion's son Maegor, therefore, also has Dayne blood). From this marriage, there were three women born, whose fate remains unknown: Maekar's daughters Daella and Rhae, and Daeron's daughter Vaella. They all had Valyrian, Arryn, Martell, and Dayne blood and could have passed it on to some descendants we don't know about.

Aegon V married Betha Blackwood. All their issue had Valyrian, Arryn, Martell, Dayne, and Blackwood blood, and the issue of Rhaelle Targaryen with Ormund Baratheon had Valyrian, Arryn, Martell, Dayne, Blackwood, and Durrandon blood.

So, among current Targaryen descendants there are:

• Valyrian/Arryn/Martell/Dayne/Blackwood/Durrandon - House Baratheon;
• Valyrian/Arryn/Martell/Dayne/Blackwood - House Targaryen;
• Valyrian/Arryn/Martell/Dayne - probably, no explicitly stated characters;
• Valyrian/Arryn/Martell - House Martell;
• Valyrian/Arryn - House Plumm and/or House Arryn (probably);
• Valyrian/Durrandon - House Velaryon (probably).

There also might be:

• Valyrian/Arryn/Bracken - House Blackfyre (or whatever its female line is called);
• Valyrian/Arryn/Durrandon - House Longwaters;
• Valyrian/Durrandon/Hightower - House Hightower.

Seems like that's all that can be said for certain at this point.

[Beorn Snow]

It´s interesting how rarely they recruit greenseers. There is a long gap between Bran and Bloodraven.

I wonder how much older the other greenseers are. Maybe the last one before Bloodraven could be from Jaeharys´s I time or even Maegor the cruel.

Might not be Blackwoods either.

[OuttaOldtown]

I've come to many of the same assertions, noticed something else rereading Jamie's last chapter in ADwD when he is speaking to Tytos Blackwood about taking a son as a squire. I found it interesting that Tytos was more protective over his daughter than ANY of his sons. This behavior is unlike any lords in the story so far as I know. Bracken is aware of this as well. Just an observation that seemed curious, makes me think something is passed on by female Blackwoods. Makes me wonder if the First Men put a greater importance on the female linage than we know. And like someone said above I think Jon has the blood of Bael, I believe there's a mystery house that we only have small clues about atm..

[Beorn Snow]

32 minutes ago, OuttaOldtown said:

I've come to many of the same assertions, noticed something else rereading Jamie's last chapter in ADwD when he is speaking to Tytos Blackwood about taking a son as a squire. I found it interesting that Tytos was more protective over his daughter than ANY of his sons. This behavior is unlike any lords in the story so far as I know. Bracken is aware of this as well. Just an observation that seemed curious, makes me think something is passed on by female Blackwoods. Makes me wonder if the First Men put a greater importance on the female linage than we know. And like someone said above I think Jon has the blood of Bael, I believe there's a mystery house that we only have small clues about atm..

Indeed, very interesting. The Brackens agree to handing over a daughter hostage, but the Blackwoods prefer to send a boy.

[house of dayne]

The most intresting thing for me about the blackwoods is the fact that they originated in the north, in the great wolfswood north and west of winterfell..the blood of the north transplanted in the riverlands...curiously, the manderlys with their southern roots in the reach are like their exact opposites...they brought the faith and culture of the south to the north...i cant think of any other two houses who swaped their dominions for another kingdom...strange

...

[Curled Finger]

9 hours ago, Jak Scaletongue said:

Targs have married a few other First Men houses in the past.  Hightowers are ones I haven't seen mentioned yet, though.  I've seen others mention Daynes.  They've also married Royce's and Arryn's as well. (Yes, I know, Arryn's are Andals - but with all the likely intermarriages between the Vale Andals and the Vale FM, there's likely as much FM blood in the Arryn's as Andal blood in the Royce's).

 

Well, we don't have any clue about Marwyn's origins....it's just as likely he's a Blackwood (bastard, maybe) as anything else at this point!

Only because we and they are so steeped in patriarchy! Some Native American tribes were exclusively matrilineal until us white folks "fixed" them (apparently...). There are plenty of example worldwide, but it's safe to say it varied from region to region. (I went on a Wiki hunt while typing - very informative!  Just search Matrilineal).

 

Just curious - is there any indication that the group Bran sees through Hodor are still alive (semi-alive; like Bloodraven, can they talk?).  Could that group have been the ones to teach Bloodraven, and now they're dead (like, truly dead) and their bodies just haven't finished decomposing into the trees?  In my head I'm picturing this group as "further along" than Bloodraven, then BR (semi-dead/live), then Bran (who's very much alive). Like, their consciousness has now left their brains and is in the tree and the tree is still slowly absorbing their bodies.  Whereas Bloodraven's consciousness is still in his own brain.  And Bran's both still in his own head *and* not part of the tree yet.

Does any of that rambling make sense?

I think it's Bran 3 where he passes several faces wrapped in trees.   Bran thinks they are dead, but the eyes move.   Then he passes a tree person who moves his mouth as though to speak though no words (Bran may have actually said "sound" here--all from memory) emerge.   There are dead giant bats and all sorts of general weirdness in this one or 2 paragraphs.   These tree people are described much like BR with roots and branches growing in and out of them so they appear to be stationary like BR.    But they are conscious of the body of Hodor passing them.   Remember BR has a freaking branch or something growing out of his eye socket.   He's pretty fairly assimilated, but seems to have maintained his voice.   I don't recall any mention of him actually moving hands or any other part of his body. BR or any of the tree creatures could be bewitched or only have limited use of their body parts.   Is BR able to share the visions Bran has within the trees?   It's pretty clear Bran doesn't have to be part of the tree to partake of its consciousness.    So no, you aren't rambling--it's a very out there situation and our words are limited here.   

[Curled Finger]

4 hours ago, b00gieman said:

I see the following passage from TWOT as the reason why something doesn't quite fit:

“More, he avowed that the Great Lord would almost as soon have turned Lews Therin to the Shadow as have broken free. Maybe Ishamael had been a little mad then, too, but there had been efforts to turn Lews Therin. And Ishamael said that it had happened in the past, the Creator’s champion made a creature of the Shadow and raised up as the Shadow’s champion.”

With that said then my thinking would be that BR is trying to lead Bran down a path that he doesn't even know is wrong.  He is the Creator's Champion that was made a creature of the Shadow and was raised up as the Shadow's Champion.  The singers enthroned to me are pulling the strings and Bran is going to figure it out and be able to shield his actions from them as they are doing from BR

 

As little as we know about it all your guess is as good as any.   Sorry, I haven't read TWOT.  

[Curled Finger]

4 hours ago, Beorn Snow said:

It´s interesting how rarely they recruit greenseers. There is a long gap between Bran and Bloodraven.

I wonder how much older the other greenseers are. Maybe the last one before Bloodraven could be from Jaeharys´s I time or even Maegor the cruel.

Might not be Blackwoods either.

True, but Jojen or Meera said that greenseers are very rare--I think it is 1 in 1000 are green dreamers (?) and 1 in 1000 of them are greenseers.  1000 thousand is a million, right?  so 1 in a million green dreamers are greenseers.   That's rare considering we've only met 1, possibly 2 (Jojen and the GOHH) greendreamers.  Also, BR is roughly 130 years old.  His life has been extended beyond normal years.   Whether that is a consequence of the bitter cold or hanging out in a tree could end up being a factor.   This unnatural life span should mean something. 

[GravyFace]

14 hours ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

I am torn between MMD's spell and somehow Dany's powers. However I believe that riding Drogon and bonding with Drogon as being two different things. The riding is a Targ thing and bonding is a First Men thing.

Well Martin already said it was the magic that Dany created which made her fireproof and made the dragons hatch, not MMD's. But definitely that magic she was able to create doesn't necessarily have to be due to her Valyrian blood, but to her large amount of first men blood. And I agree that I think her riding and bonding abilities may come from her two different but important bloodlines. Riding is a Targ/Valyrian thing, but there's potential for her to have a stronger bond than previous dragon riders due to her Blackwood blood. We just haven't seen that potential yet because she only started riding Drogon. Her Blackwood blood, and Jon's Stark/Blackwood blood may give them the ability to bond with their dragons stronger than has ever been achieved before.

 

9 hours ago, house of dayne said:

The most intresting thing for me about the blackwoods is the fact that they originated in the north, in the great wolfswood north and west of winterfell..the blood of the north transplanted in the riverlands...curiously, the manderlys with their southern roots in the reach are like their exact opposites...they brought the faith and culture of the south to the north...i cant think of any other two houses who swaped their dominions for another kingdom...strange

...

I think the fact that the Blackwoods are native to the Wolfswood is actually very important. Can't wait to see what more gets revealed about the Blackwoods.

[Lord Wraith]

11 hours ago, house of dayne said:

The most intresting thing for me about the blackwoods is the fact that they originated in the north, in the great wolfswood north and west of winterfell..the blood of the north transplanted in the riverlands...curiously, the manderlys with their southern roots in the reach are like their exact opposites...they brought the faith and culture of the south to the north...i cant think of any other two houses who swaped their dominions for another kingdom...strange

...

I remember reading a theory on that House Blackwood was the descendants of the Warg Kings of Sea Dragon Point. They were close allies of the COTF and when the Starks beat them they married the daughters into House Stark. The whole marrying the daughters of your conquered foes is something that the Starks seem to do all the time. Except with the Boltons. I wonder why.

[Beorn Snow]

2 minutes ago, Lord Wraith said:

I remember reading a theory on that House Blackwood was the descendants of the Warg Kings of Sea Dragon Point. They were close allies of the COTF and when the Starks beat them they married the daughters into House Stark. The whole marrying the daughters of your conquered foes is something that the Starks seem to do all the time. Except with the Boltons. I wonder why.

Bad blood. The Starks don´t want to be leeching themselves for generations to come?

[Jak Scaletongue]

17 hours ago, b00gieman said:

“As Hodor he explored the caves. He found chambers full of bones, shafts that plunged deep into the earth, a place where the skeletons of gigantic bats hung upside down from the ceiling. He even crossed the slender stone bridge that arched over the abyss and discovered more passages and chambers on the far side. One was full of singers, enthroned like Brynden in nests of weirwood roots that wove under and through and around their bodies. Most of them looked dead to him, but as he crossed in front of them their eyes would open and follow the light of his torch, and one of them opened and closed a wrinkled mouth as if he were trying to speak. “Hodor,” Bran said to him, and he felt the real Hodor stir down in his pit.”

 

 

12 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

I think it's Bran 3 where he passes several faces wrapped in trees.   Bran thinks they are dead, but the eyes move.   Then he passes a tree person who moves his mouth as though to speak though no words (Bran may have actually said "sound" here--all from memory) emerge.   There are dead giant bats and all sorts of general weirdness in this one or 2 paragraphs.   These tree people are described much like BR with roots and branches growing in and out of them so they appear to be stationary like BR.    But they are conscious of the body of Hodor passing them.   Remember BR has a freaking branch or something growing out of his eye socket.   He's pretty fairly assimilated, but seems to have maintained his voice.   I don't recall any mention of him actually moving hands or any other part of his body. BR or any of the tree creatures could be bewitched or only have limited use of their body parts.   Is BR able to share the visions Bran has within the trees?   It's pretty clear Bran doesn't have to be part of the tree to partake of its consciousness.    So no, you aren't rambling--it's a very out there situation and our words are limited here.   

Thanks guys! I did go look it up after work, but didn't get back on here until now!

While I'm not against the whole conspiracy theory idea, which seems just as likely as just about anything at this point, I don't think I'm wholly convinced BR doesn't know about these guys.  Someone had to teach him....and there's also the (semantical) way the word "Last" can be used.  There's "last" as in there are no others (which is the most obvious way to read it, but not the only way), there's also "last" as in he *will* be the last cause all these others aren't gonna be greenseeing much longer.  Bloodraven clearly isn't the "Last" greenseer - Bran's a greenseer, and younger, so Bran is likely the "last" greenseer.  So even with some other guys in another tree, Bran is still far more likely to outlast them and BR, which is where the semantics come in! 

Basically, Bran *will be* the Last Greenseer, not Bran *is* the Last Greenseer.  (But like I said, I can *easily* see the whole Bran storyline going any number of different ways.  I for one see no reason to put all my eggs in one basket, so I'm just gonna stay up here on my fence and play around a bit!) I do like the idea of Bloodraven, the "thousand eyes and one" with the big bad police state he created while Hand and he still hasn't figured out that he's being played by the COTF.  I don't like what it implies for Bran, though...so I'll just stay here on my fence

 

(maybe they were his teachers, and before he actually settles in to become one with the tree BR was allowed to choose his own tree!)

[Jon's Queen Consort]

22 hours ago, Gwindor said:

snip

Wait, why I don't remember saying that and I cannot find it?

[LiveFirstDieLater]

Dude boogieman... Spamming that Wheel of Time nonsense on every thread is so annoying... It was a terrible series that has no place on this website. Be gone!

 

but my 2 cents on this whole matrilineal thing... I think it is very interesting the idea that "magic" might be carried through the female line. (Y-chromosome, so a female could inherit from both parents but a man only from his mother, and a man would always pass it to a daughter)

It would go a long way to explaining why the Targs were having their patriarchal rulers marry their sisters. (Also note that it is the male line of Blackfyres that is dead)

It becomes even more freaky if you realize we know almost nothing about Ned's mom.

Also that the Starks had a habit of marrying daughters of defeated families.

But the Starks own "specialness" can't work this way... See Bran... So now I don't know... Maybe it's just the Targs and Blackwoods? Eh, it's messy

 

 

[direpupy]

On ‎29‎-‎2‎-‎2016 at 5:12 PM, The Wondering Wolf said:

If you include Brandon of the Bloody Blade, there are fourteen children.  

I would like to thank Wondering Wolf for pointing out a mistake i made in this post i forgot to count Herndon so he is right there are fourteen and i am editing this post accordingly.

1:Garth the Gardener, ancestor of House Gardener

2: John the Oak, ancestor of House Oakheart

3: Gilbert of the Vines, ancestor of House Redwyne

4: Florys the Fox, ancestor of Houses Florent, Ball, and Peake

5: Maris the Maid, an ancestor of House Hightower

6: Foss the Archer, ancestor of House Fossoway

7: Brandon of the Bloody Blade, ancestor of Brandon the Builder and House Stark (according to some tales)

8: Owen Oakenshield

9 & 10: Harlon the Hunter and Herndon of the Horn, ancestors of House Tarly

11: Bors the Breaker, ancestor of House Bulwer

12: Rose of Red Lake, ancestor of House Crane

13: Ellyn Ever Sweet, ancestor of House Beesbury

14: Rowan Gold-Tree, ancestor of House Rowan

[The Wondering Wolf]

Of course you can count them in a way giving support to some theory, but Harlon and Herndon are two children.

[direpupy]

20 minutes ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

Of course you can count them in a way giving support to some theory, but Harlon and Herndon are two children.

Hey your right i read over that, damn how did i miss that  I forgot to count Herndon i guess.

Also i don't have a theory it was something i pointed out to someone who was trying to put together a theory, it was meant as a starting point since what he wanted was to connect 13 houses to The Last Hero and his twelve companions.

This is very difficult because of the many theory's about the sword Dawn and the armor of House Royce, you would have to connect the Houses Royce and Dayne to this and they are not included in the decendants of Gart's children So it was never perfect to begin with but really only meant as a possible starting point.

But i do appreciate that you at least point my mistake out in a friendly way because that is actually getting a bit rare on this forum.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

Are there any Andal houses with significant 'ancient artifacts'? Or are they all quite plain? Here is what I'm getting at:

House Hightower, Oily black stone Lighthouse. Wonder of the World, connection to 'Bran the Builder'

House Durrandon-Baratheon, Storm's End, seemingly too advanced for the First Men but definitely pre-Andal. Can't be properly dated, magic walls, connection to 'Bran the Builder'

House Dayne, Dawn, ancient unique sword

House Royce, Runic Armour said to do something because of the runes but doesn't appear to work

House Blackwood's artifact appears to be their blood. As represented by Bloodraven. Their blood is everywhere, there was a Blackwood Queen of the Stormlands for example, it will be in the Freys, in the Tullys, probably in the Royces too.

House Stark obviously, Winterfell, the warging etc.

Its like we are seeing bits of the plan the First Men had in the Long Night but people don't understand them anymore. Even the amount of underground space that is mentioned, the Crypts, the Caverns of Storm's End, the depths of Casterly Rock, the Children's caves, one of which is the Hollow Hill under the High Heart. Why do House Hightower and House Yronwood have similar words? Is it the same 'way' or is there a connection between Oldtown and the Boneway?

 

[evita mgfs]

On 2/29/2016 at 8:53 PM, b00gieman said:

The dragons are the reason why "magic" is returning to this world

<snip>

I am probably wrong, but I thought the magic is returning because the “dead walk, and the trees have eyes again”, says Qhorin Halfhand in ACoK.

This seems logical – and a reason Bloodraven sits a weirwood throne – to restore the magic in the trees, to awaken the living magic in the bricks of WF and the ice of the Wall, and to prepare for the anticipated arrival of Bran.

Bloodraven as the ‘last greenseer’ will give himself to the tree – all the knowledge of ancient spells, worldly wisdom, and godly truths that  BR masters during his time sitting the weirwood throne is stored in the trees [and rocks, earth, water, air, etc.; consequently,  Bran will absorb all that BR knows,  and all that the gods knew:  Bran  will see as the gods see, albeit  through the trees– it is this precious knowledge the First Men knew now forgotten in Winterfell that Bran must learn if he hopes to turn back the dark night, return the dead to their graves, and deal with the White Walkers.

Just a few thoughts, anyway.