Moments of Foreshadowing v.11

[The Fattest Leech]

This is probably more of a question, and not just because I am going to use a question mark at the end.

Do you think there is any significance or foreshadowing the the fact that Morna (quite possibly a trained woods witch and healer along with Val) was given Queensgate which was previously names Snowgate?

There are strong, if only a few, similarities between Val and the Good Queen Alyanne. Val (and Dalla, RIP) is a roaming healer and has the cooperation and high respect of all Wildling clans.

"His queen, Alysanne, was also well loved throughout the realm, being both beautiful and high-spirited, as well as charming and keenly intelligent. Some said that she ruled the realm as much as the king did, and there was some truth to that. It was at her behest that King Jaehaerys at last forbade the right of the First Night, despite the many lords who jealously guarded it. And the Night's Watch came to rename the castle of Snowgate in her honor, dubbing it Queensgate instead."

[Lost Melnibonean]

4 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

This is probably more of a question, and not just because I am going to use a question mark at the end.

Do you think there is any significance or foreshadowing the the fact that Morna (quite possibly a trained woods witch and healer along with Val) was given Queensgate which was previously names Snowgate?

There are strong, if only a few, similarities between Val and the Good Queen Alyanne. Val (and Dalla, RIP) is a roaming healer and has the cooperation and high respect of all Wildling clans.

"His queen, Alysanne, was also well loved throughout the realm, being both beautiful and high-spirited, as well as charming and keenly intelligent. Some said that she ruled the realm as much as the king did, and there was some truth to that. It was at her behest that King Jaehaerys at last forbade the right of the First Night, despite the many lords who jealously guarded it. And the Night's Watch came to rename the castle of Snowgate in her honor, dubbing it Queensgate instead."

You're saying this suggests that Val will be Jon's Queen?

[The Fattest Leech]

19 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

You're saying this suggests that Val will be Jon's Queen?

Yes? 

Jon has already described Val with moonlike qualities, and George has said that the name Nissa Nissa is derived from Native American lore meaning moon, so two Nissa's is a second moon. Ygritte is 1? Val is 2? 

Adding: I just checked the search site to refresh my memory and when Mel glamoured herself to make her look like Ygritte, for a moment Jon described her with "the moon in her hair". Then later, on his second "interest" description, he describes this with Val. 

[chrisdaw]

Spoiler

 

On how Littlefinger gets dead.

I believe the things LF has done are going to happen to him to his detriment.

LF befriended and manoeuvred Joffrey under everyone's noses. I believe someone is doing the same with Robert Arryn, particularly someone is in Robert's ear talking up the threat of Harry, and that's why Robert is so savvy in the sample chapter.

Robert is going to have Harry murdered in the tournament. It will be a disaster for LF. LF had a Vale knight murdered in the KL tournament.

Going back to that snow castle scene. SR's inclusion, as pulling one of the giant and Sansa the other causing it to split may be foreshadowing they destroy LF together.

I place LF symbolically as the savage giant that destroyed Winterfell because it was his machinations that drew the North into the WOT5Ks leading to their downfall. LF killed JA knowing full well it would mean Robert would ask Ned to be Hand. He had Lysa send the secret message to Cat to put Ned on the Jon Arryn path and the lion and wolves at each other's throats. LF's ambitions required chaos, his personal desires required Sansa isolated and in the south, and he cared nothing for all the wreckage he created doing it.

But, Sansa and the Starks are not our only known blameless victims, Lysa may have deserved her fate, but Robert Arryn is blameless. LF killed his father, his mother, now rules his realm, drugs him and will eventually kill him. If it's to be a cathartic ending for LF then Robert deserves to be in on it too.

Sansa turning from pawn to player requires she learn the game of thrones and all the moves. But, as important as having those wits, is having the bravery, the boldness that LF has. It's something explored through her chapters. Sansa is fears playing the game.

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I never asked to play. The game was too dangerous. One slip and I am dead.

She marvels at LF's boldness. But, he's bringing her along. She feared standing up and pretending to be someone else and lying in front of the Lords Declarant, but she did. But it's not just her getting bolder, LF is teaching Sansa to be bold, and in the same way she is passing it onto Robert.

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And yet the thought of leaving frightened her almost as much as it frightened Robert. She only hid it better. Her father said there was no shame in being afraid, only in showing your fear. "All men live with fear," he said. Alayne was not certain she believed that. Nothing frightened Petyr Baelish. He only said that to make me brave.

And later in that same chapter.

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Alayne took Robert's gloved hand in her own to stop his shaking. "Sweetrobin," she said, "I'm scared. Hold my hand, and help me get across. I know you're not afraid."
He looked at her, his pupils small dark pinpricks in eyes as big and white as eggs. "I'm not?"
"Not you. You're my winged knight, Ser Sweetrobin."

Now if LF is set to have the same shit he pulled in KL pulled on him in the Vale, then his greatest sin would be the best for having repeated. And that would be Ned's death. What happens there harkens back to Varys' riddle and explanation.

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Varys smiled. “Here, then. Power resides where men believe it resides. No more and no less.”

LF probably greased the palms of Illyn Payne but ultimately it came down to Joff speaking and acting with authority, boldly as he echod, words put in his mouth by LF. He spoke and acted like a king, and was obeyed like a king, the power then resided with him. And it was LF's doing.

Robert Arryn is young and it's common place to have a Lord Protector sit in for a young lord or king, sure. But so was the case with Joff. Ultimately what keeps Robert from being obeyed, what keeps him powerless, is that he's feeble, weak, cowardly.

And so I theorise Ned's death is the scene of foreshadowing for LF's. Or at least him falling from power in the Vale. Sansa will convince Robert to speak, in front of a large audience, like say is gathered for the tourney, to accuse Littlefinger of ... well basically the truth. And she may organise someone else to stand up and corroborate what part they can, and she may have Robert reveal her for Sansa and then she'll jump in too, playing the victim buoyed to speak by Robert's bravery. And in the company of most the lords of the whole Vale, Nestor will have no choice but to respect his liege lord's words and arrest LF. As LF destroyed her father, Sansa will have LF her fake father destroyed.

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You are such a little fool.  “Your lords bannermen will care. Some call my father upjumped and ambitious. If you were to take me to wife, they would say that he made you do it, that it was no will of yours. The Lords Declarant might take arms against him once again, and he and I should both be put to death.”

     “I wouldn’t let them hurt you!” Lord Robert said. “If they try I will make them all fly.” His hand began to tremble.

 

Robert will make sure they don't hurt Sansa, but Littlefinger is on his own.

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“Come,” Petyr said, “walk with me.”  He took her by the arm and led her deeper into the vaults, past an empty dungeon.

I think this is where LF is headed.

 

 

[Walda]

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“Have you been teaching them to talk?” he asked Sam.
“A few words. Three of them can say snow.”
“One bird croaking my name was bad enough,” said Jon, “and snow’s nothing a black brother wants to hear about.” Snow often meant death in the north.(ACoK, Ch.13 Jon II)

First and last time this local meaning of the word 'snow' is mentioned, although there are heaps of references to death in the snow . Obviously, foreshadowing Jon's death. Less obviously, the deaths of the treacherous Black Brothers, and the Usurpers of the North.

Possibly hinting at the fate of Stannis, too:

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“You see fools in your fire, but no hint of Stannis?”
“When I search for him all I see is snow.”(ADwD, Ch.49 Jon X)

And the wildlings of Whitetree, for although Jon Snow played no part in their disappearance, he was at Whitetree when he learnt Sam was teaching the ravens to say 'snow'.

Later in the same chapter:

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“Is the bird away?” the Old Bear asked.
“Yes, my lord. Sam is teaching them to talk.”
The Old Bear snorted. “He’ll regret that. Damned things make a lot of noise, but they never say a thing worth hearing.”

(ACoK, Ch.13 Jon II)

This seems to be an invitation for contradiction, coming as it does from the man whose pet raven habitually says things that seem to foretell the future. Although none of the ravens that Sam has taught to speak have as yet said anything worth hearing, now that he is at Oldtown, Sam might be able to identify them if they arrive at Oldtown, even if the message attached to the raven came from somewhere else, or the raven arrived without a message attached.

I suppose one could argue Lord Commander Mormont was right about them saying nothing worth hearing, if a raven arrived at Oldtown screaming 'snow, snow, snow' portending the inevitable death of them all.

Of course, Jon is not the only character associated with death and snow, although he is the character most commonly associated with death and snow.

There are lots of dead people and beasts whose deaths were foreshadowed with 'in the snow' imagery: Will, Waymar Royce, Gared, the mother direwolf, and the buck that killed her, Eddard Stark ("Ned knelt in the snow to kiss the queen’s ring"), Little Walder, Robb, Chett, a horse,(in fact quite a few brothers and horses, at the fist of the first men eg.Ser Ottyn Wythers, Small Paul,) Craster, Ygritte, SweetRobin's doll, Varamyr Sixskins, Thistle, Coldhand's Elk, Able's washerwomen, some of King Stannis's knights and their destriers,

Foreshadowed but Not Dead Yet:  Bran Stark, all the Stark direwolves, Grenn, Benjen Stark, Big Walder, Theon, a weasel, SweetRobin, a giant,  Halleck, a couple of hornfoots (the ones that are wolves among the sheep), the probably younger than twelve year old wildling spear-wife that was Jon's first recruit to the Night Watch Wildling Milita, the wildling woman whose ration was knocked into the snow by her,  Satin,  Hareth, Arron, (probably Emrick, Leathers and Jax as well), more of King Stannis's knights and their destriers,  Fat Wyman Manderly, Whoresbane Umber, the men of House Hornwood and House Tallhart, the Lockes and Flints and Ryswells, Ser Hosteen Frey, his knights and men-at-arms, Jayne Poole, Asha, King Stannis.

Mance doesn't seem to have prefigured in any 'death in the snow' imagery. Sansa and Sam seem to come into their own in the snow, rather than die, and that might go for Asha too, only the snow imagary is more ambigous for Asha. The snow is also less than specific about Lady Stoneheart's future (her snow-based foreshadowing is mostly based on Lysa's associating Catelyn with Sansa "kissing in the snow. She’s just like her mother."(ASoS, Ch.80 Sansa VII) and Catelyn's early dread of the dead direwolf mother). Ser Wendel Manderly's body lies in the Snowy Sept, Big Bucket Wull half-confirms Jon's "snow means death", except according to the Big Bucket it is winter, not snow “Winter is almost upon us, boy. And winter is death."(ADwD, Ch.42 The King's Prize)

[evita mgfs]

9 minutes ago, Walda said:

First and last time this local meaning of the word 'snow' is mentioned, although there are heaps of references to death in the snow . Obviously, foreshadowing Jon's death. Less obviously, the deaths of the treacherous Black Brothers, and the Usurpers of the North.

Possibly hinting at the fate of Stannis, too:

And the wildlings of Whitetree, for although Jon Snow played no part in their disappearance, he was at Whitetree when he learnt Sam was teaching the ravens to say 'snow'.

Later in the same chapter:

This seems to be an invitation for contradiction, coming as it does from the man whose pet raven habitually says things that seem to foretell the future. Although none of the ravens that Sam has taught to speak have as yet said anything worth hearing, now that he is at Oldtown, Sam might be able to identify them if they arrive at Oldtown, even if the message attached to the raven came from somewhere else, or the raven arrived without a message attached.

I suppose one could argue Lord Commander Mormont was right about them saying nothing worth hearing, if a raven arrived at Oldtown screaming 'snow, snow, snow' portending the inevitable death of them all.

Of course, Jon is not the only character associated with death and snow, although he is the character most commonly associated with death and snow.

There are lots of dead people and beasts whose deaths were foreshadowed with 'in the snow' imagery: Will, Waymar Royce, Gared, the mother direwolf, and the buck that killed her, Eddard Stark ("Ned knelt in the snow to kiss the queen’s ring"), Little Walder, Robb, Chett, a horse,(in fact quite a few brothers and horses, at the fist of the first men eg.Ser Ottyn Wythers, Small Paul,) Craster, Ygritte, SweetRobin's doll, Varamyr Sixskins, Thistle, Coldhand's Elk, Able's washerwomen, some of King Stannis's knights and their destriers,

Foreshadowed but Not Dead Yet:  Bran Stark, all the Stark direwolves, Grenn, Benjen Stark, Big Walder, Theon, a weasel, SweetRobin, a giant,  Halleck, a couple of hornfoots (the ones that are wolves among the sheep), the probably younger than twelve year old wildling spear-wife that was Jon's first recruit to the Night Watch Wildling Milita, the wildling woman whose ration was knocked into the snow by her,  Satin,  Hareth, Arron, (probably Emrick, Leathers and Jax as well), more of King Stannis's knights and their destriers,  Fat Wyman Manderly, Whoresbane Umber, the men of House Hornwood and House Tallhart, the Lockes and Flints and Ryswells, Ser Hosteen Frey, his knights and men-at-arms, Jayne Poole, Asha, King Stannis.

Mance doesn't seem to have prefigured in any 'death in the snow' imagery. Sansa and Sam seem to come into their own in the snow, rather than die, and that might go for Asha too, only the snow imagary is more ambigous for Asha. The snow is also less than specific about Lady Stoneheart's future (her snow-based foreshadowing is mostly based on Lysa's associating Catelyn with Sansa "kissing in the snow. She’s just like her mother."(ASoS, Ch.80 Sansa VII) and Catelyn's early dread of the dead direwolf mother). Ser Wendel Manderly's body lies in the Snowy Sept, Big Bucket Wull half-confirms Jon's "snow means death", except according to the Big Bucket it is winter, not snow “Winter is almost upon us, boy. And winter is death."(ADwD, Ch.42 The King's Prize)

WALDA:  This is an excellent post, strong analytical commentary supported with evidences referring to the texts.  Nicely done.

[chrisdaw]

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The mob loved Margaery so much they were even willing to love Joffrey again.

Foreshadowing for Sansa and Tyrion, Sansa will be so loved by the mob they will love Tyrion too.

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That beast's head would make a noble gift for all the people of the realm, I vow.

Brynden to Cat. One of the reasons the realm will love Sansa is her champions will defeat and reveal Robert Strong.

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"He's not the man his brother was either. Robert never let a little thing like a river stop him.

Sandor to Sansa about Stannis. Applies to Sandor's brother, Gregor having been stopped by Edmure at the Red Fork.

Also foreshadows Jon, who is not his brother Robb. Robb goes West fearing he will not be able to cross the trident at the Ruby Ford, when Jon comes South he himself will come straight down the guts and win at the Ruby Ford or win over his opponent to his side without or with minimal battle.

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Men said proudly that the Young Wolf was the first to rise each dawn and the last to sleep at night, but Catelyn wondered whether he was sleeping at all. He grows as lean and hungry as his direwolf.

Most every passage where Young Wolf is used instead of Robb or such is foreshadowing for Jon. Like Mel, in his revived state Jon might not have much need of sleep or food.

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"The Hound has lost more than a few bags of coin.," he mused. "He has lost his master and kennel as well. He cannot go back to the Lannisters, the Young Wolf would never have him,

So the question is will Jon have Sandor?

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Even a dog gets tired of being kicked. If this Young Wolf has the wits the gods gave a toad, he'll make me a lordling and beg me to enter his service. He needs me, though he may not know it yet. Maybe I'll even kill Gregor for him, he'd like that."

"He'll never take you," she spat back. "Not you."

"Then I'll take as much gold as I can carry, laugh in his face, and ride off. If he doesn't take me, he'd be wise to kill me, but he won't. Too much his father's son, from what I hear. Fine with me. Either way I win. And so do you she-wolf.

 

And the question again. So much going on here. Arya says no, not you. But will she say the same about the new Sandor. Will he still be that same you. Why will Jon really need him? And will he know it? Anyway, they'll meet at the Trident, by the Saltpans and QI.

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"Sedgekins can bugger himself with a hot poker." Clegane shook out his whip, and sent it hissing through the soft rain to bite at a horse's flank. "It's your bloody brother I want."

Don't know yet who Sedgekins is foreshadowing, a skinchanger maybe on the basis of some name play, (number)skins, but whoever it is their horses on their flank are going to get fucked up by a dragon. Maybe it's Arya Horseface's flank being foreshadowed.

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"He was," agreed Edric Storm, "but my father was braver. The Young Dragon never won three battles in a day."

Jon is the Young Dragon also, he will win three battles in one day.

[Lost Melnibonean]

I like the idea of Sandor joining Jon since he cannot jon Robb. (I think the other shadow Bran saw in his early vision-Jaime-will end up at the Wall too.) I'll keep my eye on the "Young Wolf" foreshadowing for Jon. That's an interesting suggestion. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

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“They often ride atop the Wall? Not always?”

“No. One patrol in four follows the base instead, to search for cracks in the foundation ice or signs of tunneling.”

The Magnar nodded. “Even in far Thenn we know the tale of Arson Iceaxe and his tunnel.”

Jon knew the tale as well. Arson Iceaxe had been halfway through the Wall when his tunnel was found by rangers from the Nightfort. They did not trouble to disturb him at his digging, only sealed the way behind with ice and stone and snow. Dolorous Edd used to say that if you pressed your ear flat to the Wall, you could still hear Arson chipping away with his axe."

Foreshadowing? Fluff? Why nobody tries to tunnel? 

[chrisdaw]

A theory for how Sandor becomes Jon's.

Jon will come South, break a force off West at the twins, Arya will be part of that, they meet up with Theon and go on to RR who is now ruled again by Edmure, reinstated by Hand Jaime (Jaime = Criston Cole) and King Tyrion (Tyrion = Aemond Targ in most of this) after Stoneheart clears the Freys and Lannisters there. No fight at Riverrun, as Edmure declares RR for the KITN and most the Riverlands follow the lead. Foreshadowed in the first dance by Kermit (Kermit = Edmure), and by Genna's words to Jaime that all these RR men he was having swear oaths and sparing would betray him again.

Like the Lads (Arya = Alysanne) this force rushes East to meet up with Jon (Jon = Cregan)  who is coming South. (Foreshadowing of this with Robb/Roose in Arya chapter HH or BWB, and Tyrion to Cersei?) On the way they win a battle, maybe more than one. At some point here Jaime is going to lose a battle, not necessary die or be captured but still lose, and Tyrion will not have supported him with Viserion, as Aemond sort of deserted Criston Cole and he lost the Butcher's Ball.

Why Tyrion won't be there for Jaime I'm not sure but I have a theory.

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"I am not your friend and I am not your brother." That cleaned the grin off the boy's face. Jaime turned to Lord Tytos. "My lord, let there be no misunderstanding here. Lord Beric Dondarrion, Thoros of Myr, Sandor Clegane, Brynden Tully, this woman Stoneheart all these are outlaws and rebels, enemies to the king and all his leal subjects. If I should learn that you or yours are hiding them, protecting them, or assisting them in any way, I will not hesitate to send you your son's head. I hope you understand that. Understand this as well: I am not Ryman Frey."

When RR rebels most the Riverlands follow, including the Blackwoods. True to his word Jaime will want to execute Hoster. But ...

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Tyrion would like this one. They could talk from dusk to dawn, arguing about books.

Tyrion will not let him.

In the same manner Jaime left his ruling sister Cersei to go clear up the Riverlands for her, Jaime will leave quarrelling with his ruling brother to go clean up the Riverlands for him.

And when Jaime loses, perhaps thought dead or captured, Tyrion will fly off the handle, cursing himself for having been too soft and gotten his brother killed/captured/defeated. And then, like Aemond with Vhagar, like Gregor for Tywin, Tyrion will burn the rebellious Riverlands on Viserys.

Now Jon will have the issue of trying to cross the Trident, and a force will be sent to stop him. Sandor will be KG, more for Sansa than Tyrion, and Sandor will be either lead part or the whole of the force, like Gregor did against the Roose ruse.

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Dogs moved between the tables, trailing after the serving girls. One of them, a black mongrel bitch with long yellow eyes, caught the scent of the chicken. She stopped and edged under the bench to get a share. Jon watched the confrontation. The bitch growled low in her throat and moved closer. Ghost looked up, silent, and fixed the dog with those hot red eyes. The bitch snapped an angry challenge. She was three times the size of the direwolf pup. Ghost did not move. He stood over his prize and opened his mouth, baring his fangs. The bitch tensed, barked again, then thought better of this fight. She turned and slunk away, with one last defiant snap to save her pride. Ghost went back to his meal.

I've always said this is Sansa/Sandor vs Jon foreshadowing, and so I think it happens here. The dog is Clegane colours, a bitch because he's really Sansa's mean. And most notably I think is that there is no real fight, ghost stares the bitch down and she basically submits. And so the same is going to go with Sandor and Jon.

At this point Sansa might have skipped out on Tyrion and so too left Sandor. And she may have or have not told Sandor to betray Tyrion for Jon. But ultimately, pushes him over the edge will be the destruction Tyrion brings on the Riverlands. It will be the Blackwater all over again.

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Clegane's eyes turned toward the distant fires. "All this burning." He sheathed his sword. "Only cowards fight with fire."

"Lord Stannis is no coward."

"He's not the man his brother was either. Robert never let a little thing like a river stop him."

 

And so like the Blackwater, Sandor will again turn cloak on the Lannisters. On his cowardly king. He will sheathe his sword, and go to the Young Wolf. And so Jon will not be stopped by the river his brother Robb went West to avoid.

The question then becomes will Jon have Sandor? Next to the QI and Saltpans, Jon will have to judge Sandor, for his perceived crimes and turning his white cloak. Too much like his father I suggest Jon is inclined to judge Sandor like Ned judged Jaime, BUT, in a full turn since she demanded the BWB kill him, I think Arya will speak for Sandor. Arya will have seen Sandor becoming the True Knight and saving Sansa. She will implore Jon to grant him mercy, but not the mercy of death she refused him. And Bran, being able to see the Saltpans was not his work and that Mycah was under orders, may have a point to make too. And so Jon will listen, and the Young Wolf will this time not execute the traitor, probably have him take the black, and of course it will end up Sandor does something epic against the Others and prove Jon right for sparing him.

[norwaywolf123]

33 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

A theory for how Sandor becomes Jon's.

Jon will come South, break a force off West at the twins, Arya will be part of that, they meet up with Theon and go on to RR who is now ruled again by Edmure, reinstated by Hand Jaime (Jaime = Criston Cole) and King Tyrion (Tyrion = Aemond Targ in most of this) after Stoneheart clears the Freys and Lannisters there. No fight at Riverrun, as Edmure declares RR for the KITN and most the Riverlands follow the lead. Foreshadowed in the first dance by Kermit (Kermit = Edmure), and by Genna's words to Jaime that all these RR men he was having swear oaths and sparing would betray him again.

Like the Lads (Arya = Alysanne) this force rushes East to meet up with Jon (Jon = Cregan)  who is coming South. (Foreshadowing of this with Robb/Roose in Arya chapter HH or BWB, and Tyrion to Cersei?) On the way they win a battle, maybe more than one. At some point here Jaime is going to lose a battle, not necessary die or be captured but still lose, and Tyrion will not have supported him with Viserion, as Aemond sort of deserted Criston Cole and he lost the Butcher's Ball.

Why Tyrion won't be there for Jaime I'm not sure but I have a theory.

When RR rebels most the Riverlands follow, including the Blackwoods. True to his word Jaime will want to execute Hoster. But ...

Tyrion will not let him.

In the same manner Jaime left his ruling sister Cersei to go clear up the Riverlands for her, Jaime will leave quarrelling with his ruling brother to go clean up the Riverlands for him.

And when Jaime loses, perhaps thought dead or captured, Tyrion will fly off the handle, cursing himself for having been too soft and gotten his brother killed/captured/defeated. And then, like Aemond with Vhagar, like Gregor for Tywin, Tyrion will burn the rebellious Riverlands on Viserys.

Now Jon will have the issue of trying to cross the Trident, and a force will be sent to stop him. Sandor will be KG, more for Sansa than Tyrion, and Sandor will be either lead part or the whole of the force, like Gregor did against the Roose ruse.

I've always said this is Sansa/Sandor vs Jon foreshadowing, and so I think it happens here. The dog is Clegane colours, a bitch because he's really Sansa's mean. And most notably I think is that there is no real fight, ghost stares the bitch down and she basically submits. And so the same is going to go with Sandor and Jon.

At this point Sansa might have skipped out on Tyrion and so too left Sandor. And she may have or have not told Sandor to betray Tyrion for Jon. But ultimately, pushes him over the edge will be the destruction Tyrion brings on the Riverlands. It will be the Blackwater all over again.

And so like the Blackwater, Sandor will again turn cloak on the Lannisters. On his cowardly king. He will sheathe his sword, and go to the Young Wolf. And so Jon will not be stopped by the river his brother Robb went West to avoid.

The question then becomes will Jon have Sandor? Next to the QI and Saltpans, Jon will have to judge Sandor, for his perceived crimes and turning his white cloak. Too much like his father I suggest Jon is inclined to judge Sandor like Ned judged Jaime, BUT, in a full turn since she demanded the BWB kill him, I think Arya will speak for Sandor. Arya will have seen Sandor becoming the True Knight and saving Sansa. She will implore Jon to grant him mercy, but not the mercy of death she refused him. And Bran, being able to see the Saltpans was not his work and that Mycah was under orders, may have a point to make too. And so Jon will listen, and the Young Wolf will this time not execute the traitor, probably have him take the black, and of course it will end up Sandor does something epic against the Others and prove Jon right for sparing him.

Why will Stark go south?

[chrisdaw]

Page 1, you quoted it.

[norwaywolf123]

50 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

A theory for how Sandor becomes Jon's.

Jon will come South, break a force off West at the twins, Arya will be part of that, they meet up with Theon and go on to RR who is now ruled again by Edmure, reinstated by Hand Jaime (Jaime = Criston Cole) and King Tyrion (Tyrion = Aemond Targ in most of this) after Stoneheart clears the Freys and Lannisters there. No fight at Riverrun, as Edmure declares RR for the KITN and most the Riverlands follow the lead. Foreshadowed in the first dance by Kermit (Kermit = Edmure), and by Genna's words to Jaime that all these RR men he was having swear oaths and sparing would betray him again.

Like the Lads (Arya = Alysanne) this force rushes East to meet up with Jon (Jon = Cregan)  who is coming South. (Foreshadowing of this with Robb/Roose in Arya chapter HH or BWB, and Tyrion to Cersei?) On the way they win a battle, maybe more than one. At some point here Jaime is going to lose a battle, not necessary die or be captured but still lose, and Tyrion will not have supported him with Viserion, as Aemond sort of deserted Criston Cole and he lost the Butcher's Ball.

Why Tyrion won't be there for Jaime I'm not sure but I have a theory.

When RR rebels most the Riverlands follow, including the Blackwoods. True to his word Jaime will want to execute Hoster. But ...

Tyrion will not let him.

In the same manner Jaime left his ruling sister Cersei to go clear up the Riverlands for her, Jaime will leave quarrelling with his ruling brother to go clean up the Riverlands for him.

And when Jaime loses, perhaps thought dead or captured, Tyrion will fly off the handle, cursing himself for having been too soft and gotten his brother killed/captured/defeated. And then, like Aemond with Vhagar, like Gregor for Tywin, Tyrion will burn the rebellious Riverlands on Viserys.

Now Jon will have the issue of trying to cross the Trident, and a force will be sent to stop him. Sandor will be KG, more for Sansa than Tyrion, and Sandor will be either lead part or the whole of the force, like Gregor did against the Roose ruse.

I've always said this is Sansa/Sandor vs Jon foreshadowing, and so I think it happens here. The dog is Clegane colours, a bitch because he's really Sansa's mean. And most notably I think is that there is no real fight, ghost stares the bitch down and she basically submits. And so the same is going to go with Sandor and Jon.

At this point Sansa might have skipped out on Tyrion and so too left Sandor. And she may have or have not told Sandor to betray Tyrion for Jon. But ultimately, pushes him over the edge will be the destruction Tyrion brings on the Riverlands. It will be the Blackwater all over again.

And so like the Blackwater, Sandor will again turn cloak on the Lannisters. On his cowardly king. He will sheathe his sword, and go to the Young Wolf. And so Jon will not be stopped by the river his brother Robb went West to avoid.

The question then becomes will Jon have Sandor? Next to the QI and Saltpans, Jon will have to judge Sandor, for his perceived crimes and turning his white cloak. Too much like his father I suggest Jon is inclined to judge Sandor like Ned judged Jaime, BUT, in a full turn since she demanded the BWB kill him, I think Arya will speak for Sandor. Arya will have seen Sandor becoming the True Knight and saving Sansa. She will implore Jon to grant him mercy, but not the mercy of death she refused him. And Bran, being able to see the Saltpans was not his work and that Mycah was under orders, may have a point to make too. And so Jon will listen, and the Young Wolf will this time not execute the traitor, probably have him take the black, and of course it will end up Sandor does something epic against the Others and prove Jon right for sparing him.

Jaime-Daemon Targaryen

Tyrion-Corlys Seasnake Velaryon

[chrisdaw]

I laid out the foreshadowing before for the Lads, and that they'd defeat either Edric or Gendry who will be KG leading a force on Tyrion's behalf in battle. Of the three main leaders Kermit = Edmure, Alysanne = Arya and I don't know yet who Benjicot is, though he's the one who is going to break the Baratheon KG's left flank. The foreshadowing strengthens, in ADWD Benjicot Branch, a hunter for Stannis provided him by Sybelle Glover, kills a scrawny hart. A hart is a well matured stag, a white hart is a legendary creature and the emblem of Richard II.

I'm leaning towards Brynden for Benjicot. Blackwood, Blackfish. Ben was Alsanne's (Arya) nephew. Inverse the relations, Arya is Brynden's niece. Benjicot asked Rhaenyra to protect the Riverlands with her dragons during the dance, but was refused. Brynden asked Lysa to help protect the Riverlands, but she refused. Brynden got pissed and left after that. The Arryn fool is named Benjicot but that's a loose connection.

As the familial relationships might be inversed between Benjicot and Alysanne, so too might the roles they play. Adding to the dragon eye speculation/foreshadowing on page 1, Benjicot had Tessarion put down by ordering Billy Burley to put three arrows through the dragon's eye. I think related, is that when Arya runs into the BWB, Tom of Sevenstreams tells Arya that Anguy could put three arrows through her before she could reach them.

So, Arya for Benjicot, Anguy for Billy, Arya ordering Anguy (and the rest of her archers) to put an arrow through Viserion's eye.

[Lost Melnibonean]

Quote

 

“You know nothing, Jon Snow. It went on and on and on. There are hundreds o’ caves in these hills, and down deep they all connect. There’s even a way under your Wall. Gorne’s Way.”

“Gorne,” said Jon. “Gorne was King-beyond-the-Wall.”

“Aye,” said Ygritte. “Together with his brother Gendel, three thousand years ago. They led a host o’ free folk through the caves, and the Watch was none the wiser. But when they come out, the wolves o’ Winterfell fell upon them.”

“There was a battle,” Jon recalled. “Gorne slew the King in the North, but his son picked up his banner and took the crown from his head, and cut down Gorne in turn.”

“And the sound o’ swords woke the crows in their castles, and they rode out all in black to take the free folk in the rear.” 

“Yes. Gendel had the king to the south, the Umbers to the east, and the Watch to the north of him. He died as well.”

“You know nothing, Jon Snow. Gendel did not die. He cut his way free, through the crows, and led his people back north with the wolves howling at their heels. Only Gendel did not know the caves as Gorne had, and took a wrong turn.” She swept the torch back and forth, so the shadows jumped and moved. “Deeper he went, and deeper, and when he tried t’ turn back the ways that seemed familiar ended in stone rather than sky. Soon his torches began t’ fail, one by one, till finally there was naught but dark. Gendel’s folk were never seen again, but on a still night you can hear their children’s children’s children sobbing under the hills, still looking for the way back up. Listen? Do you hear them?”

All Jon could hear was the falling water and the faint crackle of flames. “This way under the Wall was lost as well?”

“Some have searched for it. Them that go too deep find Gendel’s children, and Gendel’s children are always hungry.” Smiling, she set the torch carefully in a notch of rock, and came toward him. “There’s naught to eat in the dark but flesh,” she whispered, biting at his neck."

 

This story of Gorne and Gendel follows hard after Arson Iceaxe (fire and ice). These two stories of folks getting trapped under the Wall and trying to get out are told right before Jon goes over the Wall. Why? 

[Lost Melnibonean]

11 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

This story of Gorne and Gendel follows hard after Arson Iceaxe (fire and ice). These two stories of folks getting trapped under the Wall and trying to get out are told right before Jon goes over the Wall. Why? 

I guess they could merely allude to Jon's feelings about Ygritte. . . 

[chrisdaw]

Gendry + Arya.

Gendry is going KG and is foreshadowed by the white hart and harts in general. Harts being a mature stag and a white hart is a legendary and rare thing like the knights of the KG.

Arya's arc will take her back to the BWB, which she will infiltrate incognito. And when she leaves, she will disappear without a trace, like Wenda the White Fawn.

Quote

Sometimes she thought she might go back to Sharna's inn, if the floods hadn't washed it away. She could stay with Hot Pie, or maybe Lord Beric would find her there. Anguy would teach her to use a bow, and she could ride with Gendry and be an outlaw, like Wenda the White Fawn in the songs.

So there's a match in White fawn Arya + White hart Gendry.

 

Moving on,

Arya is foreshadowed by Alysanne Blackwood, or Black Aly. Another "Black" character is Betha Blackwood, or, Black Betha. She was known as Black Betha because of her dark eyes and dark hair. She was spirited, stubborn and wilful. She's another Arya Parallel. Arya is not particularly dark, but the description is with reference (competition) to Sansa, as Blackwood is always with reference (competition) to Bracken. Backwoods = Aryas, Brackens = Sansas, but I'm getting sidetracked. Arya = Black Betha.

Davos' ship is the Black Betha (plenty of foreshadowing to come of Arya via Davos' ship), the Lannisters had the White Hart as part of their fleet. At the battle of Blackwater they 'meet'.

The foreshadowing regarding Gendry starts here I think.

Quote

and the great trebuchets behind the Mud Gate were throwing boulders. One the size of an ox crashed down between Black Betha and Wraith, rocking both ships and soaking every man on deck.

Ox = bull = Gendry. So Gendry (ox) coming between Arya (Black Betha) and Wraith (dunno).

Quote

Sceptre had lost most her paras, and Faithful had been rammed and was starting to list. He took Black Betha between them, and struck a glancing blow at Queen Cerise's ornate carved-and-gilded pleasure barge, laden with soldiers instead of sweetmeats now.

Not sure if related, but I'm thinking Arya (Black Betha) breezing by faith (faithfulness) to hit the pleasure barge.

Quote

 

His men used their oars to push free of the barge, while others turned the galley so her prow faced the onrushing White Hart. For a moment, he feared he'd been too slow, that he was about to be sunk, but the current helped swing Black Betha, and when the impact came it was only a glancing blow, the two hulls scraping against each other, both ships snapping oars. A jagged piece of wood flew past his head, sharp as any spear. Davos flinched. "Board her!" he shouted. Grappling lines were flung. He drew his sword and led them over the side himself.

The crew of the White Hart met them at the rail, but Black Betha's men-at-arms swept over them in a screaming steel tide. Davos fought through the press, looking for the other captain, but the man was dead before he reached him. As he stood over the body, someone caught him from behind with an axe, but his helm turned the blow and he was left ringing when it might have been split. Dazed, it was all he could do to roll. His attacker charged screaming. Davos grasped his sword in both hands and drove it up point-first into the man's belly.

One of his crew pulled him back to his feet. "Captain see, the Hart is ours." It was true, Davos saw. Most of the enemy were dead or dying, or yielded. He took off his helm, wiped the blood from his face, and made his way back to his own ship, treading carefully on boards slimy with men's guts. Matthos lent him a hand to help him back over the rail.

 

I'm reading romantic and sexual imagery in the scene, for instance hulls scraping together, the Hart is ours, but I suppose it could also be foreshadowing of fighting, and I do believe (and previously posted in this same thread) that Arya is going to be part of the leadership of a force that will fight Gendry. But I think this sentence is very much going for romance.

Quote

For those few instants, Black Betha and White Hart were the calm eye in the midst of the storm.

So, Arya + Gendry, to have sex, not marriage or anything.

To take a stab at specifics, I think Arya returns to the BWB in disguise, Gendry either works out who she is or she reveals herself to him, so as Gendry knew last time she wasn't a boy while everyone else bought the lie Gendry will know again her secret. Relationship turns romantic, they have sex, then go their separate ways. Gendry makes her a helmet, at some point the helmet is going to save her life.

Quote

As he stood over the body, someone caught him from behind with an axe, but his helm turned the blow and he was left ringing when it might have been split.

This I think is Arya because it's so similar to the Hound knocking her out.

Gendry ends up KG for Tyrion/Sansa, Arya is in KL but in disguise, Gendry doesn't know she's there. Arya gets extremely angry about him going KG, she probably won't really understand why but it will be because it means he will never be able to marry her.

Jon comes South, Arya is one of his leaders, Gendry is one of Tyrion's KG. They meet in battle, Gendry loses, Black Aly over Borros Baratheon.

Gendry refuses to flee and refuses to bend. Gendry's defining trait is he is stubborn, and the other white bull said the KG do not flee.

For some reason relating to Gendry's stubbornness Jon feels honour bound to execute him. Jon also wants Arya to marry as part of his political manoeuvring, Arya won't want to, she only loves Gendry.

In order to save Gendry from Jon's harsh judgement, Arya makes Jon a deal, she will marry where he wills her to, but he has to grant Gendry mercy, as whatever Gendry was doing he was only doing under orders and as he was duty bound (Sandor-Mycah come back around). Jon agrees. Foreshadowed by Black Aly, Cregan and Corlys Velaryon.

[Isobel Harper]

41 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

Gendry + Arya.

Gendry is going KG and is foreshadowed by the white hart and harts in general. Harts being a mature stag and a white hart is a legendary and rare thing like the knights of the KG.

Arya's arc will take her back to the BWB, which she will infiltrate incognito. And when she leaves, she will disappear without a trace, like Wenda the White Fawn.

So there's a match in White fawn Arya + White hart Gendry.

Or perhaps Gendry becomes a sort of "white fawn 2.0," but a hart (albeit unknowingly) instead of a fawn.

She could stay with Hot Pie, or maybe Lord Beric would find her there. Anguy would teach her to use a bow, and she could ride with Gendry and be an outlaw, like Wenda the White Fawn in the songs.

But that was just stupid, like something Sansa might dream. ASoS, Arya XII

49 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

Arya is foreshadowed by Alysanne Blackwood, or Black Aly. Another "Black" character is Betha Blackwood, or, Black Betha. She was known as Black Betha because of her dark eyes and dark hair. She was spirited, stubborn and wilful. She's another Arya Parallel. Arya is not particularly dark, but the description is with reference (competition) to Sansa, as Blackwood is always with reference (competition) to Bracken. Backwoods = Aryas, Brackens = Sansas, but I'm getting sidetracked. Arya = Black Betha.

What purpose do you have to parallel Sansa to the Brackens?  I'm not sure I see any connection, other than Sansa and Arya didn't get along well.

53 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

Davos' ship is the Black Betha (plenty of foreshadowing to come of Arya via Davos' ship), the Lannisters had the White Hart as part of their fleet. At the battle of Blackwater they 'meet'.

The foreshadowing regarding Gendry starts here I think.

and the great trebuchets behind the Mud Gate were throwing boulders. One the size of an ox crashed down between Black Betha and Wraith, rocking both ships and soaking every man on deck.

Ox = bull = Gendry. So Gendry (ox) coming between Arya (Black Betha) and Wraith (dunno).

Sceptre had lost most her paras, and Faithful had been rammed and was starting to list. He took Black Betha between them, and struck a glancing blow at Queen Cersei's ornate carved-and-gilded pleasure barge, laden with soldiers instead of sweetmeats now.

Not sure if related, but I'm thinking Arya (Black Betha) breezing by faith (faithfulness) to hit the pleasure barge.

Another term for "wraith" is "ghost."  A sceptre is (per online dictionary) "an ornamented staff carried by rulers on ceremonial occasions as a symbol of sovereignty." 

I detect something with regards to Arya having Gendry/BwB and Jon/family as a choice she must choose between, like the choice to run off and become an outlaw with the BwB or to take up her responsibilities as a Stark.  Does Sceptre allude to Jon?  Or perhaps to Arya? 

Black Betha (Arya) passes up Sceptre (choice to support Jon's claim or her own?) and Faithful (being faithful to whom? her family?) and arrives at a pleasure barge.  Passing up the ships reminds me of "passing up" something, like an offer or opportunity.  But Black Betha attacks the pleasure barge, so is passing up Sceptre and Faithful actually the opposite of "passing up something" because Black Betha chose not to attack them?  That is, when forced to choice among supporting someone's claim , remaining faithful/dutiful to someone, and having "pleasure" (joining the BwB fits in this latter option), does Arya "attack" (reject) pleasure? 

1 hour ago, chrisdaw said:

Gendry ends up KG for Tyrion/Sansa, Arya is in KL but in disguise, Gendry doesn't know she's there. Arya gets extremely angry about him going KG, she probably won't really understand why but it will be because it means he will never be able to marry her.

Jon comes South, Arya is one of his leaders, Gendry is one of Tyrion's KG. They meet in battle, Gendry loses, Black Aly over Borros Baratheon.

Gendry refuses to flee and refuses to bend. Gendry's defining trait is he is stubborn, and the other white bull said the KG do not flee.

For some reason relating to Gendry's stubbornness Jon feels honour bound to execute him. Jon also wants Arya to marry as part of his political manoeuvring, Arya won't want to, she only loves Gendry.

In order to save Gendry from Jon's harsh judgement, Arya makes Jon a deal, she will marry where he wills her to, but he has to grant Gendry mercy, as whatever Gendry was doing he was only doing under orders and as he was duty bound (Sandor-Mycah come back around). Jon agrees. Foreshadowed by Black Aly, Cregan and Corlys Velaryon.

I don't see Tyrion becoming king, at all. 

I think Gendry's role remains with the BwB more than anything, not becoming a KG, but then again who knows.  It's an interesting scenario you propose.  It parallels nicely with Black Aly, etc.  I also see a bit of a parallel with Criston Cole and Rhaenyra.

[chrisdaw]

Delving in deeper on the above. Perhaps Arya and Gendry don't just sleep together, perhaps Arya falls pregnant. Foreshadowing then carries into Daena the Defiant. I think it's fair that whenever a character is named something like "the defiant" that Arya is the first thought. Daena has the qualities to identify with Arya, and is another bow and arrow character as seems to be associated with her parallels (Alysanne Blackwood).

As per the first page I have a battle converging at the God's Eye, foreshadowed by more than one battle, but including Aemond vs Daemon. At that battle both men turned up with their bedmates, Nettles parallels nicely to Arya in spirit and the 'dark' features again. But Aemond brought a pregnant Alys Rivers. Alys for Alysanne. Riverlands/North (The KITN realm) Alysannes = Arya (Alysanne Blackwood aka Black Aly), Southron Alysannes = Sansa (Good queen Alysanne Targaryen).

So, pregnant Arya at the God's Eye. Timing wise though for this to happen the hook up might have to happen after the whole BWB/Stoneheart part of Arya's arc.

And here I think is where we get the whole beef Jon is going to have with Gendry. When Jon sees Arya pregnant he's going to be pissed. Not just because it's an unnecessary complication to marrying Arya off (not really, Jon will have won the war and everything will be on his terms, Arya could have been working a Lys pleasure house and whoever Jon demands will still marry her), but because it hits a personal note. He's been carrying around the luggage of being a bastard his whole life, and by now he knows his true heritage too. He's going to demand Arya name the father of the child, so the child doesn't grow up not knowing its parents like he did.

So, Jon demands to know the father and Arya refuses, because she doesn't want Jon to tear strips off him and doesn't want to besmirch Gendry's white cloak. Daena the Defiant. But everyone correctly suspected Daena's lover and father of her child, and so Jon will likely suspect Gendry.

Come hour of the Wolf, Jon demands Gendry name himself Arya's lover and father of her child. He refuses, under threat of death, because if Arya won't say he won't say, and he has a different take on being a bastard, he was better off not knowing the disgrace of his father, and generally because Gendry is a stubborn cunt.

Jon is enraged, going to execute him, and Arya makes the marriage deal to save Gendry as Black Aly did.

Now the question, what to do with the bastard. Is that what sisters are for? To raise your bastards. Is that what Jaime's passage was about? The child of the queen (the marriage Jon makes her will make her queen) and the bastard of the former king, that's a threat to the realm, and in master player Sansa's hands doubly so. And there it is, Daena the Defiant's child whose father she refused to name would not name was of course Daemon I Blackfyre. Perhaps it's even worse, assuming it's before Gendry goes KG that they hook up maybe Arya does a Lyanna and they marry in secret.

[Isobel Harper]

27 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

<snip>

So, Jon demands to know the father and Arya refuses, because she doesn't want Jon to tear strips off him and doesn't want to besmirch Gendry's white cloak. Daena the Defiant. But everyone correctly suspected Daena's lover and father of her child, and so Jon will likely suspect Gendry.

I don't see the series lasting long enough for Arya to be of childbearing age, so I'll have to disagree with you on this one. 

Even though I disagree with you in regards to Arya pregnancy and Gendry's KG status, I will note a parallel I see your theory with a theory of mine.  (ETA: I've always felt that we will not learn much more about the little mysteries occurring during RR, but rather see echoes in the present text from the past which give clues to what really happened.  Daemon's father is another of these "little mysteries.")

Aemon the Dragonknight was Daemon's father, not Aegon. Her bastard son was one reason why she was passed up in the succession.  She was passed up for Aegon.  Why not proclaim that Aegon was the father if said bastard was the reason for her being rejected in the succession?  Daena was a princess, and unlike Jon, Daemon's paternity would not put him at risk if Aegon was the father.  The most suitable reason for Daena to hide Daemon's paternity is for the sake of someone's honor.  Daena got pregnant in the Maidenvault, which was guarded by the KG.  Aegon, being jealous of his brother and petty as he was, named Aemon's son as his. 

Daena can easily be paralleled in character to Arya, as you already have.  Now, let's look at Aegon's character - a chauvinist womanizer, selfish, cruel.  Can you see Arya, defiant as she is, falling for someone like Aegon IV, even for one night?  She'd be more likely to fall for Joffrey.