Anyone else still deliberating over watching Season 6?

[Lautrec]

1 minute ago, Myrish Swamp-Thing said:

Sorry but I'm not a walking dossier. You're welcome to visit the R&R threads the fanboys and fangilrs are so terrified about and find a pretty good collection of them there.

No one's expecting you to be a dossier. It would just be nice if you could come up with one example more.

[TheButcherCrow]

2 hours ago, Lautrec said:

I don't see how Boardwalk Empire or Breaking Bad could be seen as more depressing than Game of Thrones.

BE & BB are set in the real world and feature realistic characters doing shit that real bad people do. GoT is set in a fantasy world with dragons and snow demons and features unrealistic characters doing cartoonishly horrendous shit to each other.  In other words, BB (and that of it's ilk) are about two steps away from being documentaries, thrones is never in any danger of that.

[Lautrec]

1 minute ago, TheButcherCrow said:

BE & BB are set in the real world and feature realistic characters doing shit that real bad people do. GoT is set in a fantasy world with dragons and snow demons and features unrealistic characters doing cartoonishly horrendous shit to each other.  In other words, BB (and that of it's ilk) are about two steps away from being documentaries, thrones is never in any danger of that.

The circumstances may be different but an amoral action is still amoral, whether it's in Albuquerque or Atlantic City or Westeros. But I see your point, since those two shows are clearly in the real world. 

[Mr Smith]

11 hours ago, TheButcherCrow said:

If I watched every episode of the shows listed above, I would kill myself.  Thrones combines a bleak, moral world view with thrilling entertainment and cinematic television.  Homeland is boring, House of Cards is a freaking remake, Boardwalk Empire is relentlessly depressing, as is Breaking Bad and The Walking Dead.  I haven't seen MM or OITNB so I won't comment but I'm thinking "feelgood" probably doesn't describe them.  I'm sorry but I can only handle so much TV that shows us how shit the world is.

Addressing each of these one at a time:

"Homeland is boring"... This is a problem with your attention span, not the show. Homeland is all about high tension, high drama. I could understand if you found watching Homeland uncomfortable (it is at times, due to the strain the characters subject themselves to) but to suggest it's boring is absolutely ridiculous.

"House of Cards is a remake". Yes I know. Have you watched the remake? Usually British shows are much better at subtlety than their American remakes, but not in this case. The original has some good narrative foundations, but beats the viewer over the head with its "you might think that, I couldn't possibly comment" catchphrase. The new version adds layers of political and emotional complexity to these foundations, before taking the story in new and interesting directions (conflict between Frank and Claire, Doug's inner psyche, Presidential impeachment, etc)

Boardwalk Empire I haven't seen much of, but you can hardly criticise it for being relentlessly depressing if you watch Game of Thrones.

Breaking Bad same thing, and its superiority is in it's outstanding pacing and a (general) lack of plot holes.

I'll grant you that a lot of the best TV is dark and depressing, but what is that other than a reflection of human nature. I agree that you need some light-hearted viewing in there somewhere, but none of these shows are more bleak and depressing than Thrones is.

[Daske]

5 hours ago, Mr Smith said:

...

Breaking Bad same thing, and its superiority is in it's outstanding pacing and a (general) lack of plot

I like Breaking Bad a lot.

But the fact is that shows like that are not scrutinised here on the same level as GoT when most people compare it to another show. If they were then the Rant and Rave thread would be full of thousands of posts about how bad the science is, about lack of agency for any female character, too few 'good' or 'main' black characters, about great characters being killed-off, about how OTT and unrealistic the final shootout was, about whether a man can do up his tie if half his face is blown off, or survive poison like that, about how ridiculous it is that Gus would kill his most trusted man like that, about how blind Hank is at times and the unbelievably convenient Walt Whitman smoking gun. And so on and so on.

And these shows are not based on books that already exist that has a rabid fan base criticising every deviation. Man they butchered that line when he says 'I'm the one who knocks' - it was so much more epic in the book when he says 'I'm the one who knocks first'. Ruined it for me. And I won't stop posting how bad it was for another ten years!

 

 

[Lautrec]

2 minutes ago, Daske said:

I like Breaking Bad a lot.

But the fact is that shows like that are not scrutinised here on the same level as GoT when most people compare it to another show. If they were then the Rant and Rave thread would be full of thousands of posts about how bad the science is, about lack of agency for any female character, about great characters dying, about how OTT and unrealistic the final shootout was, about whether a man can do up his tie if half his face is blown off, or survive poison like that, about how ridiculous it is that Gus would kill his most trusted man like that, about how blind Hank is at times and the unbelievably convenient Walt Whitman smoking gun. And so on and so on.

And these shows are not based on books that already exist that has a rabid fan base criticising every deviation. Man they butchered that line when he says 'I'm the one who knocks' - it was so much more epic in the book when he says 'I'm the one who knocks first'. Ruined it for me. And I won't stop posting how bad it was for another ten years!

 

 

And it would be equally absurd like the rant thread is for GoT.

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

23 minutes ago, Daske said:

I like Breaking Bad a lot.

But the fact is that shows like that are not scrutinised here on the same level as GoT when most people compare it to another show. If they were then the Rant and Rave thread would be full of thousands of posts about how bad the science is, about lack of agency for any female character, too few 'good' or 'main' black characters, about great characters being killed-off, about how OTT and unrealistic the final shootout was, about whether a man can do up his tie if half his face is blown off, or survive poison like that, about how ridiculous it is that Gus would kill his most trusted man like that, about how blind Hank is at times and the unbelievably convenient Walt Whitman smoking gun. And so on and so on.

And these shows are not based on books that already exist that has a rabid fan base criticising every deviation. Man they butchered that line when he says 'I'm the one who knocks' - it was so much more epic in the book when he says 'I'm the one who knocks first'. Ruined it for me. And I won't stop posting how bad it was for another ten years!

 

 

Making a programme like GoT is a completely different prospect than Breaking Bad. Most importantly the writers of Breaking Bad have the creative freedom to do whatever they want, to make it fit into a tv season format. The writers of GoT instead are having to take material not suited for tv and find a way to make it work for tv. Its obviously been getting more and more difficult as time has gone on, because not only has the material become less and less compelling and straightforward to adapt, they also have the prospect of running out of material and having to be in a transitional phase of combining adapted material with original writing. 

Of course it hasn't always worked, but at the very least the problems are understandable.

As you say, BB doesn't come with a rabid book reading fan base hoping to mock the show at every opportunity to make themselves look superior. If it did, BB would be ripped apart for its treatment of women... I mean Skyler never advances from 'irritating bitchy wife'. And you'd probably see some of the other ludicrous comments you might see in a Rant thread, about costumes not being beautiful " Yellow Jump Suits with Goggles.. UGH!"

Broadwalk Empire has the standard problem most HBO shows have with boobs, so it wouldn't escape that (though isn't BW an adaptation too?) 

[Daske]

8 minutes ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

Making a programme like GoT is a completely different prospect than Breaking Bad. Most importantly the writers of Breaking Bad have the creative freedom to do whatever they want, to make it fit into a tv season format. The writers of GoT instead are having to take material not suited for tv and find a way to make it work for tv. Its obviously been getting more and more difficult as time has gone on, because not only has the material become less and less compelling and straightforward to adapt, they also have the prospect of running out of material and having to be in a transitional phase of combining adapted material with original writing. 

Of course it hasn't always worked, but at the very least the problems are understandable.

As you say, BB doesn't come with a rabid book reading fan base hoping to mock the show at every opportunity to make themselves look superior. If it did, BB would be ripped apart for its treatment of women... I mean Skyler never advances from 'irritating bitchy wife'. And you'd probably see some of the other ludicrous comments you might see in a Rant thread, about costumes not being beautiful " Yellow Jump Suits with Goggles.. UGH!"

Broadwalk Empire has the standard problem most HBO shows have with boobs, so it wouldn't escape that (though isn't BW an adaptation too?) 

This is why I have high hopes for this coming season. The books offered almost unparalleled good stuff but clearly shackled them at times. They will be far freer this season, but can still call on the groundwork laid. They have a great platform now to spring on from now, with an established audience, big budget, secure endgame etc. I'm sure there will be a few missteps but I think it will be easier to judge the show as good (or bad) television this time round. The trailer looks good, it's promising.

 

[Gustavo Fringed Sleeves]

Bullshit.

There were no Rant & Rave threads for BrBa because there was no forum dedicated to BrBa on this scale, if any, and because it never got too bad for anyone to bitch about it, even if they didn't like the second part of S05 or the Finale.

OTOH, not everything @Daske lists is a contrivance (lack of agency for females, wtf did that come from?) and it DID get scrutinized after each episode aired. I've made that point several times, how stupid the double standard is that reviewers for BrBa were counting decibels of an idle train engine when now they let GoT's multiple plot holes and contrivances slide. Only after Sansa's wedding night there was isolated outcry, and some non-asslicking criticism appeared after the season ended when the hype had passed.

[Humble AK]

On 3/11/2016 at 8:47 AM, Myrish Swamp-Thing said:

Bullshit.

There were no Rant & Rave threads for BrBa because there was no forum dedicated to BrBa on this scale, if any, and because it never got too bad for anyone to bitch about it, even if they didn't like the second part of S05 or the Finale.

OTOH, not everything @Daske lists is a contrivance (lack of agency for females, wtf did that come from?) and it DID get scrutinized after each episode aired. I've made that point several times, how stupid the double standard is that reviewers for BrBa were counting decibels of an idle train engine when now they let GoT's multiple plot holes and contrivances slide. Only after Sansa's wedding night there was isolated outcry, and some non-asslicking criticism appeared after the season ended when the hype had passed.

I wish I had had a chance to address a comment similar to this in the Stannis thread, but that thread has been closed, unfortunately.

In addition to this:

 

Quote

about how OTT and unrealistic the final shootout was, about whether a man can do up his tie if half his face is blown off, or survive poison like that, about how ridiculous it is that Gus would kill his most trusted man like that, about how blind Hank is at times and the unbelievably convenient Walt Whitman smoking gun. And so on and so on.

one can add the astronomically small odds of pulling off a massively coordinated hit in prison in a span of two minutes. Although to be fair, Mythbusters did a segment on that finale shooting and found it to be plausible (though the other two things Mythbusters tested - the mercury fulminate scene and the hydrofluoric acid scene - were found to be pretty much impossible). But as to that prison sequence, the idea that some guy can just hand a million dollars to some Neo-Nazi and have them smoothly assassinate that number of people, without it going wrong, in two minutes is so completely improbable as to be virtually impossible. And not only that, get away with it. Considering the scale of the assassination enterprise, it's totally far-fetched that someone at some point wouldn't have inculpated those who had headed and the he who had commissioned it.

But anyway, the difference between those criticizing the implausible scenarios in Breaking Bad and those here criticizing the implausible scenarios in Game of Thrones, is that people here will perhaps note the ridiculous scenarios in Breaking Bad and say that it's still a great show. But those same people will criticize some of the equally ridiculous scenarios in Game of Thrones and say, "See, that's why Game of Thrones is such an awful show, because of its dumb logic and implausibility." There seriously is a double standard.

[Gustavo Fringed Sleeves]

5 minutes ago, Humble AK said:

I wish I had had a chance to address a comment similar to this in the Stannis thread, but that thread has been closed, unfortunately.

In addition to this:

 

one can add the astronomically small odds of pulling off a massively coordinated hit in prison in a span of two minutes. Although to be fair, Mythbusters did a segment on that finale shooting and found it to be plausible (though the other two things Mythbusters tested - the mercury fulminate scene and the hydrofluoric acid scene - were found to be pretty much impossible). But as to that prison sequence, the idea that some guy can just hand a million dollars to some Neo-Nazi and have them smoothly assassinate that number of people, without it going wrong, in two minutes is so completely improbable as to be virtually impossible. And not only that, get away with it. Considering the scale of the assassination enterprise, it's totally far-fetched that someone at some point wouldn't have inculpated those who had headed and the he who had commissioned it.

But anyway, the difference between those criticizing the implausible scenarios in Breaking Bad and those here criticizing the implausible scenarios in Game of Thrones, is that people here will perhaps note the ridiculous scenarios in Breaking Bad and say that it's still a great show. But those same people will criticize some of the equally ridiculous scenarios in Game of Thrones and say, "See, that's why Game of Thrones is such an awful show, because of its dumb logic and implausibility." There seriously is a double standard.

 

So, now the Aryan Brotherhood killings in BrBa are the same as Ramsay's 20 good men...

Jeeezus... I let you have the last word in the last thread I addressed you, now I'll let you have it on this one. There, use it.

[Lautrec]

2 minutes ago, Myrish Swamp-Thing said:

 

So, now the Aryan Brotherhood killings in BrBa are the same as Ramsay's 20 good men...

Jeeezus... I let you have the last word in the last thread I addressed you, now I'll let you have it on this one. There, use it.

Kind of. Both are highly improbable events. And this is coming from someone to whom Breaking Bad is the second favourite show (and no, GoT isn't #1). Also, Ramsay's 20 good men didn't defeat Stannis, they merely sabotaged him. There actually was a huge battle outside Winterfell in which Stannis was defeated. Some posters are acting like Ramsay literally strolled into the camp and killed Stannis and left without being caught. 

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

I think its a perfectly viable point about double standards. 

[Humble AK]

16 minutes ago, Myrish Swamp-Thing said:

 

So, now the Aryan Brotherhood killings in BrBa are the same as Ramsay's 20 good men...

Jeeezus... I let you have the last word in the last thread I addressed you, now I'll let you have it on this one. There, use it.

Okay. Both are extremely implausible and borderline impossible scenarios. Nothing even close to what happened in Breaking Bad ever happened in real life because it's not something that can happen. People accept it because they like the idea of how this forwards the story, and they are willing to suspend disbelief. There are quite a few people here who are married to the books and dislike deviation, and so when the show runners - in an effort to avoid the GRRM path of everything spiraling out of control, attempt to contract the plot and resolve things more expeditiously - make alterations to the book that are perhaps less plausible than presented in the books (at least presumably, because WoW has yet to be published), those people are less inclined to accept those alterations because they want it to be like the books. This has nothing to do with accepting or not accepting implausible scenarios, because they've displayed a willingness to suspend disbelief in other works. That's only the pretext for the real reason - which is, they have the notion that GRRM is simply superior, and their minds work to justify that emotional decision in a logical manner, even though there's no logic it their tastes.

[JonSnow4President]

35 minutes ago, Humble AK said:

I wish I had had a chance to address a comment similar to this in the Stannis thread, but that thread has been closed, unfortunately.

In addition to this:

 

one can add the astronomically small odds of pulling off a massively coordinated hit in prison in a span of two minutes. Although to be fair, Mythbusters did a segment on that finale shooting and found it to be plausible (though the other two things Mythbusters tested - the mercury fulminate scene and the hydrofluoric acid scene - were found to be pretty much impossible). But as to that prison sequence, the idea that some guy can just hand a million dollars to some Neo-Nazi and have them smoothly assassinate that number of people, without it going wrong, in two minutes is so completely improbable as to be virtually impossible. And not only that, get away with it. Considering the scale of the assassination enterprise, it's totally far-fetched that someone at some point wouldn't have inculpated those who had headed and the he who had commissioned it.

But anyway, the difference between those criticizing the implausible scenarios in Breaking Bad and those here criticizing the implausible scenarios in Game of Thrones, is that people here will perhaps note the ridiculous scenarios in Breaking Bad and say that it's still a great show. But those same people will criticize some of the equally ridiculous scenarios in Game of Thrones and say, "See, that's why Game of Thrones is such an awful show, because of its dumb logic and implausibility." There seriously is a double standard.

Personally, it's because GoT has gone past the point of it being too much.  So now I'm unwilling to forgive any of it, because they've broken my limit.  I haven't watched very far into Breaking Bad, so I can't argue to how ridiculous the scene you reference is.

I'm willing to forgive an exaggeration of something, like the Mercury Fulminate thing or the bathtub scene, because it is consistent with the information the show gives (I'm an accountant, not a scientist) and doesn't randomly be overturned later.  It requires detailed knowledge of science (I was an A student in every science class I've ever taken, and for lack of a better word am conversational with my brothers, one of which works in a cancer lab and one is a mechanical engineer.  Despite both of those, I wouldn't have called it.  It's not like we're talking about 2 Hydrogen + Oxygen eating through a bathtub), which one can only get from outside the show, to call it as inaccurate.  That outside knowledge is why I don't harp on things like the stripping of Jon's leadership struggles/choices through all the seasons (even prior to LC), or Mereen not being beseiged on all sides when I talk about the failings of the show as a show.  (I will bring them up if someone insists it is a good adaptation).  I don't harp on Ellaria revenge! or Arya Needle is revenge! because it requires that outside knowledge.  

But Sansa's situation makes no sense within the context of the universe.  Burning Shireen and Stannis' military failure feels rushed and gratuitous based on the story D&D have given me, both before and after.  Dorne is just flat bad writing, coreography, and acting (Sand Snakes) with some illogical decisions thrown in for good manner even without comparing it to book.  Dany's leaf of Lorien is laughable.  Jon's being on the wrong side of the wall is laughable.  Our honorable Lord Snow doesn't give a fuck that Sam is effectively deserting to protect Gilly. The hall of face's effect lighting is awful regardless of book context.  Regardless of book context, every religious person ever is drastically, stupidly, over the top fanatical.  Tywin makes an exception to everything we know about him for Arya after finding out he lied.  Littlefinger gives up MAJOR political assets.  Olly foreshadowing is ridiculously heavyhanded.  Talisa's attitude and casualness is jarringly out of place.  Sex slaves giving free sex to Tyrion because he's such a great guy is offensive regardless of how white or dark his book character is.  While I'm personally not bothered, male to female nudity ratio, and naked women as props isn't a book to show difference issue.  Sam being the walking stereotype of a fat virgin "Girls girls, I like girls, look at girls, look at girls walking away, give a girl a gift she doesn't want" is tiring and annoying (speaking as a fat virgin).  A girl does not sleep with someone after nearly being raped-Shae --> Gilly sleeping with Sam happens regardless of the books.  The change in wights is show-verse.  The change in white walkers is showverse.  The inconsistency of killing wighst/skeletons is show-verse.  

I can go on with (progressively smaller) things that the show continues to fail at, or be inconsistent with, without even touching the adaptation aspect.  I don't think Breaking Bad compares based on the "complaints" I've seen here.  

ETA:  I am REALLY invested in this story.  I hate this show more than any other reason because of the adaptational abomination it has become, particularly this past season.  I considered not watching it, but I'm morbidly curious to see what continues.  I've never been the type where being spoiled ruined a book for me, and the show has significantly messed up the journey in between the plot points, to the point where it's a different sandwich entirely.  Besides, ranting and raving about the active subversion of GRRM's themes has become almost fun at this point in a morbid sort of way.

[Mandzipop]

I'll most definitely be watching. The show literally contributed to saving my life last year. There was no way I was going to die without finding out what happened to Jon Snow. I had to focus on something to keep me conscious (otherwise I wouldn't be here now) so I focused on Jon Snow.

[Humble AK]

25 minutes ago, JonSnow4President said:

But Sansa's situation makes no sense within the context of the universe.  Burning Shireen and Stannis' military failure feels rushed and gratuitous based on the story D&D have given me, both before and after.  Dorne is just flat bad writing, coreography, and acting (Sand Snakes) with some illogical decisions thrown in for good manner even without comparing it to book.  Dany's leaf of Lorien is laughable.  Jon's being on the wrong side of the wall is laughable.  Our honorable Lord Snow doesn't give a fuck that Sam is effectively deserting to protect Gilly. The hall of face's effect lighting is awful regardless of book context.  Regardless of book context, every religious person ever is drastically, stupidly, over the top fanatical.  Tywin makes an exception to everything we know about him for Arya after finding out he lied.  Littlefinger gives up MAJOR political assets.  Olly foreshadowing is ridiculously heavyhanded.  Talisa's attitude and casualness is jarringly out of place.  Sex slaves giving free sex to Tyrion because he's such a great guy is offensive regardless of how white or dark his book character is.  While I'm personally not bothered, male to female nudity ratio, and naked women as props isn't a book to show difference issue.  Sam being the walking stereotype of a fat virgin "Girls girls, I like girls, look at girls, look at girls walking away, give a girl a gift she doesn't want" is tiring and annoying (speaking as a fat virgin).  A girl does not sleep with someone after nearly being raped-Shae --> Gilly sleeping with Sam happens regardless of the books.  The change in wights is show-verse.  The change in white walkers is showverse.  The inconsistency of killing wighst/skeletons is show-verse.  

I've put the clear opinions in bold, your personal speculations of where you feel one's sense of disbelief is too great relative to other shows in italics, and the comments with both opinions and personal speculations in bold and italics.

It's fair to have your own preference. But it is a preference. Some of it I agree with. I found Dorne to be incredibly weak in the show, and am glad that it took about a total of only twenty minutes out of ten hours of show time, and hope that the writers will improve that area in the future.

Can't agree with your opinion about Talisa and Tyrion, and I don't think Tywin makes an exception to everything we know about him but not examining Arya's lies further, nor do I find it peculiar that Jon is supportive of Sam abandoning post, and I'm perfectly fine with how Stannis' arc was carried out, but these are all matters of our respective interpretation of character motivation, so a discussion of this would invariably result in an impasse, and either one of us would probably to the end remain convinced that our own interpretation was the better of our interlocutor.

As for the Shae thing, I think Shae was specifically referring to a woman suddenly deciding to sleep with a stranger, but beside that, it was simply one character's opinion and has absolutely no basis in real life. People are different, and no one can make that kind of sweeping generalization and expect it to cover every single human who has ever lived.

I don't even remotely care about the change of white walkers to being more skeleton like. They can still have the slow decomposing ones, too; but based on Hardhome, I would say the show runners made the right choice because Hardhome was one the coolest tv events I've ever seen - perhaps the coolest, and I've seen a lot of tv. I totally support that slight discontinuity for that kind of effect, which the lumbering dead would not achieve.

 

[Anythingatall]

 Those people who are claiming that the show won't spoil the book because they are two different stories... Really?  

Is this wishful thinking?  Criticism of the show?  You can't possibly be serious can you?  

[shk12344]

1 hour ago, Anythingatall said:

 Those people who are claiming that the show won't spoil the book because they are two different stories... Really?  

Is this wishful thinking?  Criticism of the show?  You can't possibly be serious can you?  

Those are people in denial. 

[The Arthur Smith]

1 hour ago, Anythingatall said:

 Those people who are claiming that the show won't spoil the book because they are two different stories... Really?  

Is this wishful thinking?  Criticism of the show?  You can't possibly be serious can you?  

I would say that the show won't spoil some plot that is cut out and has happen and expandable in the book like Sansa at Vale; the Battle of Mereen with Vic, Barristain, and Tyrion; Aegon at Westeros; etc. Though i'm convenience that the only thing that they will definitely spoil is the ending. Though i felt like the only thing so far that the show kinda spoiled is Littlefinger's plan of becoming the Warden of the North, which really change the whole game on whether Sansa is returning back to the North.