Robert Baratheon is Jon Snows father?

[Julia H.]

1 hour ago, Valens said:

1. This is obviously one of the most ardent supporters of the R+L=J theory. Sorry if I "insulted" you, but those are my thoughts and suggestions. 2. Brandon Stark COULD HAVE impregnated Ashara Dayne and she COULD HAVE been Jon's mother. This is not like some real happening where you know all the facts and evidence. 3. And by the way, saying Brandon didn't rush to KL because of his father but sister is like saying "it's not potato, it's potaato". It's the same thing!

1. I don't know how I earned that title, but no, you didn't insult me. I don't think you insulted anyone, and I do realize that "those" are your thoughts and suggestions. What I said was my reply to your thoughts and suggestions.

2. I guess we could all make a very long list of what could have been. How realistic a could have been suggestion is in the context of the novel is another matter. I have no quarrel with your statement that it would be "cool" if Jon was Brandon's son because that's your personal opinion. Fine. However, anything that you (or others) bring up as proof of a theory may come under scrutiny, as that's what a discussion is about.

 3. I corrected a factual mistake you made. If you use details from the plot as proof, it's a  good idea to state them in a factually correct way. Using incorrect details will immediately weaken your argument considerably. However, I am ready to admit (and I tried to imply this in my post above) that this was only a minor mistake compared to the other mistake that  you made, namely that Jon rushed to King's Landing just like Brandon - because Jon didn't do such a thing. You seemed to be saying the fact that both Jon and Brandon rushed to King's Landing after their respective fathers were captured / killed is indication that Jon is Brandon's son. This is a parallel that simply never happened in the book. I pointed out that you stated the facts incorrectly on several points and I also explained why the differences were important. But read again the relevant passages in the novel and see for yourself if your theory as based on them still stands. 

[The Dragons Hand]

On 2016-03-29 at 1:35 AM, Christopher Six said:

I am sort of suggesting that possibly... haha I don't know. But what from the war lasted nine months? Or possibly 10 months. I am just saying that if the war did last 10 months or so, yeah maybe she had a longer pregnancy because of self induced stress or something similar of that.

It lasted thirteen months.

On 2016-03-29 at 6:08 AM, Valens said:

Who knows why he'd keep it a secret...maybe he wanted Jon to feel like his own son, not a bastard son of his brother. A result of a one night stand with Ashara Dayne. Jon is more handsome than Eddard, in the show anyway, I don't know about the books. Brandon was more handsome than Eddard. There is a possible connection.

Gwendoline Christie is leagues prettier than book Brienne.

Does that make her a Daenerys' bastard half-sister? (That does sound pretty cool in a crackpotty kinda way though)

Kit Harrington's handsome face has no baring on the plot.

I'd still think Jon is a rather good looking fellow mind, being the son of the first and third most attractive people in the Kingdom at the time. (Mind you, I think Ned's "Plainness" is severely overrated. Spend all of your timing frowning at the ground saying "Winter is coming" see if that attitude attracts people.)

Brandon seemed more attractive not just because he was buffer and taller, but because he had more positive emotions than "Get nervous around the Lady Ashara."

[Laughing Storm Reborn]

Sorry but to me, the notion that Rhaegar is more intelligent than Robert has no fundation at all... Book smart and culturally more learned, sure... But Robert has a military IQ at Napoleon's level considering the feats so a big NO NO for me

[TimJames]

7 hours ago, Valens said:

How is that possible? He looks like a quintessential Stark! All Robert's bastards, more or less, had Robert's features. Black hair, blue eyes, right? Jon has brown hair and grey eyes. And Robert didn't even touch Lyanna, it seems. They had just gotten engaged when she was "kidnapped" by Rhaegar. Robert may have loved her but it doesn't mean he got to impregnate her or that Lyanna would have let him do it so soon after engagement. She was headstrong, as Ned pointed out to Robert. Plus, if Jon had really been Robert's, don't you think Ned would have told him? Knowing his love for Lyanna, Robert would probably make him his heir or something similar. Given him a place in the kingsguard at least.

That's why I stated that I wasn't sure how likely it was. It's pretty unlikely (I personally believe that Rhaegar really did rape Lyanna, and that Jon Snow was conceived by this) but still within the realm of possibility.

Ultimately, the underlined part is the biggest hole in the R(obert) + L = J Theory. If Eddard knew that Lyanna bore Robert's son, then he would have absloutly told Robert. Robert would have absloutly loved having a son to remember Lyanna by, and would have legitimized Jon Baratheon as his heir (plus having an heir means Robert doesn't have to ever get married).

 

[JonisHenryTudor]

46 minutes ago, TimJames said:

That's why I stated that I wasn't sure how likely it was. It's pretty unlikely (I personally believe that Rhaegar really did rape Lyanna, and that Jon Snow was conceived by this) but still within the realm of possibility.

Ultimately, the underlined part is the biggest hole in the R(obert) + L = J Theory. If Eddard knew that Lyanna bore Robert's son, then he would have absloutly told Robert. Robert would have absloutly loved having a son to remember Lyanna by, and would have legitimized Jon Baratheon as his heir (plus having an heir means Robert doesn't have to ever get married).

 

Would he? I know they were "friends", but something always seemed off about their friendship. 

 

Also, wouldn't Robert tell Ned that he slept with his sister? Or did he and I just miss that part? 

 

IMO, I can see Ned keeping Jon away from Robert so that he did not become like Robert. For me it's a moot point anyway, because I believe that Jon is Rhaegar's son, but not as the product of rape. 

[TimJames]

1 hour ago, JonisHenryTudor said:

Would he? I know they were "friends", but something always seemed off about their friendship. 

Also, wouldn't Robert tell Ned that he slept with his sister? Or did he and I just miss that part? 

IMO, I can see Ned keeping Jon away from Robert so that he did not become like Robert.

They were raised together in childhood, they fought together in a war, they both mourned the same woman's death, and Eddard did everything in his power to protect Robert from Lannister Deception. If that's not friendship, I don't know what is.

Anyway, there is no good reason why Eddard would purposefully keep Robert's son away from him. When Jon Snow was born, Robert Baratheon was a much different man than he is now. And even if he wasn't, the fact is that Eddard wouldn't so cruelly betray his friend by keeping his son away from him.

The ONLY reason Eddard would keep Robert's son away from him is if he didn't know it was Robert's Son. 

[Daeron Velar]

No. It is impossible. 

[JonisHenryTudor]

4 hours ago, TimJames said:

They were raised together in childhood, they fought together in a war, they both mourned the same woman's death, and Eddard did everything in his power to protect Robert from Lannister Deception. If that's not friendship, I don't know what is.

Anyway, there is no good reason why Eddard would purposefully keep Robert's son away from him. When Jon Snow was born, Robert Baratheon was a much different man than he is now. And even if he wasn't, the fact is that Eddard wouldn't so cruelly betray his friend by keeping his son away from him.

The ONLY reason Eddard would keep Robert's son away from him is if he didn't know it was Robert's Son. 

Many people do all those things and dislike each other. You can ally with someone you dislike to overthrow a common enemy. There are historical examples of this, numerous I might add. Raised together? That means nothing, plenty of people are raised together and dislike the other. As far as mourning the loss of someone, enemies can love the same person. 

 

I am not suggesting they were enemies, just that it seems Ned tolerated Robert more than anything.  

 

Actually if "the promise" (I don't buy this, just hypothetical) was to keep Jon away from Robert, because Lyanna didn't like who he was...that is reason enough for Ned. This is not terribly far fetched, because people have made terrible decisions in a moment of passion or anger, or whatever and regretted it later. Again, none of this matters, because Jon is not Robert's son.   

[kissdbyfire]

1 hour ago, JonisHenryTudor said:

Many people do all those things and dislike each other. You can ally with someone you dislike to overthrow a common enemy. There are historical examples of this, numerous I might add. Raised together? That means nothing, plenty of people are raised together and dislike the other. As far as mourning the loss of someone, enemies can love the same person.

 

I am not suggesting they were enemies, just that it seems Ned tolerated Robert more than anything.  

 

Actually if "the promise" (I don't buy this, just hypothetical) was to keep Jon away from Robert, because Lyanna didn't like who he was...that is reason enough for Ned. This is not terribly far fetched, because people have made terrible decisions in a moment of passion or anger, or whatever and regretted it later. Again, none of this matters, because Jon is not Robert's son.   

I'm not sure where this is coming from, the idea that Eddard didn't like Robert, or that "something was off" in their friendship. This is just one example I remembered, but I'm sure there are others.

AGoT, Eddard VII

This was the boy he had grown up with, he thought; this was the Robert Baratheon he'd known and loved. If he could prove that the Lannisters were behind the attack on Bran, prove that they had murdered Jon Arryn, this man would listen. Then Cersei would fall, and the Kingslayer with her, and if Lord Tywin dared to rouse the west, Robert would smash him as he had smashed Rhaegar Targaryen on the Trident. He could see it all so clearly.

[JonisHenryTudor]

9 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

I'm not sure where this is coming from, the idea that Eddard didn't like Robert, or that "something was off" in their friendship. This is just one example I remembered, but I'm sure there are others.

AGoT, Eddard VII

This was the boy he had grown up with, he thought; this was the Robert Baratheon he'd known and loved. If he could prove that the Lannisters were behind the attack on Bran, prove that they had murdered Jon Arryn, this man would listen. Then Cersei would fall, and the Kingslayer with her, and if Lord Tywin dared to rouse the west, Robert would smash him as he had smashed Rhaegar Targaryen on the Trident. He could see it all so clearly.

Yes I am aware of that, but something just didn't seem complete I suppose. It sort of reminded me of a situation where you have a group of friends; and while there is one friend you do love, like, or whatever, you may not include that friend in certain activities for whatever reason.  There are also plenty of quotes in Cats chapter to show what your saying as well.

 

Don't worry, I am not going to start a thread that "Ned secretly hated Robert and used him for prestige" ;). 

[kissdbyfire]

21 minutes ago, JonisHenryTudor said:

Yes I am aware of that, but something just didn't seem complete I suppose. It sort of reminded me of a situation where you have a group of friends; and while there is one friend you do love, like, or whatever, you may not include that friend in certain activities for whatever reason.  There are also plenty of quotes in Cats chapter to show what your saying as well.

 

Don't worry, I am not going to start a thread that "Ned secretly hated Robert and used him for prestige" ;).

Maybe this 'there's something slightly off' you perceive has to do with how it was and what it became. 

As to the bold, phew, you had me worried there for a sec!

[Kienn]

On March 29, 2016 at 1:55 AM, Christopher Six said:

 What if Robert is Jons father? In the first chapter when we meet Jon Snow he looks stronger and has darker features.

 

First issue...

He looks stronger than what? Robb is the one called out for looking strong. Jon is the slender one.

[Dorian Martell]

On 3/29/2016 at 11:55 PM, Christopher Six said:

*oft repeated baseless crackpot masturbatory fantasy theory that in no way serves the story* 

So what do you guys think.....is this possible at all? I think it could at least be possible right?   

 

totes legit. It is in fact only slightly less probable than my theory about the great other being the bastard of megatron and optimus prime. And I have text to back that one up too

[JonisHenryTudor]

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

Maybe this 'there's something slightly off' you perceive has to do with how it was and what it became. 

 

Probably. 

 

1 hour ago, Dorian Martell said:

totes legit. It is in fact only slightly less probable than my theory about the great other being the bastard of megatron and optimus prime. And I have text to back that one up too

If that is the case, I want Michael Bay to direct the scene before the two sides clash. "I....AM.....the NIGHT'S KING..." *BOOM!!!*

 

 

[The Lord of the Crossing]

On 3/29/2016 at 2:55 AM, Christopher Six said:

 What if Robert is Jons father? In the first chapter when we meet Jon Snow he looks stronger and has darker features. Who else has dark features? Yes, I know he has brown hair but a darker brown hair. Also I interpreted the stag that killed the direwolf in the beginning as Robert having a child that killed Lyanna

 

 

I don't think this is the case.  Brandon Stark is Jon's father.  Mom is one of two ladies:  Lyanna Stark or Ashara Dayne.  

The Stag is an omen that Stark + Baratheon end up in tragedy for the Starks.  Father Rickard tried to join his House,  using Lyanna to marry a Baratheon and it ended in tragedy.  Once again in Game of Thrones we see Ned playing Rickard's game and tried to build a link to his House and the Baratheons via Sansa + Joffrey, and accepting position in Robert's service.  It ended in tragedy.  That's the omen of the stag killing the direwolf.  Stark and Baratheon is a bad mix. 

[The Wolves]

2 minutes ago, Lame Lothar Frey said:

I don't think this is the case.  Brandon Stark is Jon's father.  Mom is one of two ladies:  Lyanna Stark or Ashara Dayne. 

What evidence points to Brandon being the father? Or that he had a sexual relationship with his sister(disgusting)or Ashara? 

Brandon is not Jon's father what a ridiculous theory. 

[Ygrain]

1 hour ago, The Wolves said:

What evidence points to Brandon being the father? Or that he had a sexual relationship with his sister(disgusting)or Ashara? 

Brandon is not Jon's father what a ridiculous theory. 

We have Barristan's comment how young girls always pick the dashing bad guys over plain good ones (fire men over mud), and

Spoiler

the same thing in a different wording is repeated in Arianne's TWOW sample chapter

Ashara was dishonoured, after all, and had a child out of wedlock because the guy who had sex didn't do right by her and didn't marry her. We know that Brandon wasn't above deflowering a noble maiden whom he knew he wouldn't marry. We have hints of Ned having a crush on Ashara, and his weirdly bitter remark how "everything was always for Brandon". I believe that Brandon + Ashara is quite a safe bet.

That said, there is no way B+A=J. Timeline issues aside, there would be zero reason for Ned to take Ashara's baby away, thus drive her to suicide, yet never even bother to think about what he had done, nor would he have a single reason to damage his own marriage because of B+A and deny Jon the right to know his parents. Furthermore, we would have a missing child from Lyanna's bed of blood and no promises given to her keeping of which would cost Ned any price. There would be no reason why the brothel scene should prompt Ned thinking about Lyanna, Jon and eventually Rhaegar if B+A, and so on.

[MtnLion]

2 hours ago, Lame Lothar Frey said:

The Stag is an omen that Stark + Baratheon end up in tragedy for the Starks. 

Close.  The direwolf was injured at the throat, and the stag was gored.  Ned was beheaded by . . . Joffrey Baratheon (not really), and Ned's unwary discussion with Cersei results in Robert's goring.