Robert Baratheon is Jon Snows father?

[kissdbyfire]

1 minute ago, Valens said:

It doesn't, does it? But still...it's a possibility. As I wrote last, I still think Ned is more likely to be his father. But I don't discount the Rhaegar theory, I just don't like that people have taken it as given, as if Martin himself wrote or said that he IS the father.

I think most readers, and I don't mean those who post here or participate in other online discussions, aren't aware of R+L=J. Some will have, but I think they're the minority. I say this based on my own RL 'sample'; most of my friends/acquaintances didn't pick up on the clues, and were rather shocked when I brought R+L=J.  

[Valens]

10 hours ago, Wall Flower said:

Sweetsunray, speaking as a definite introvert, I can't tell you how much I've enjoyed your posts in this thread. I think the trouble with the nurture viewpoint is that it comes a little to close to regarding extroversion as the norm or default, with introversion something that comes out of a difficult childhood rather than a natural variation of personality (whether heritable or not). Whatever the scientific limits of personality tests like Myer Briggs, I personally found it really helpful to be able to see introversion as just a personality trait rather than an aberration that I had to train myself out of.

While Jon Snow has his detractors as a character, I thought that he was really well written as a non-cliched introvert. Jon's certainly one of the most introspective characters in the books and I found myself really relating to the way his mind worked.

Jon wants to be Ned's perfect copy but I'm not so sure that he is. He's much less conventional in his thinking than Ned, capable of thinking outside the box and looking at the big picture seems to come naturally to him. We don't know enough about Rhaegar to say that Jon gets this from him, but I don't see Jon being much like Ned or Robert in this regard.  

Brandon was more adventurous than Ned, so again-we come back to my theory! Right now, I'm kinda divided...lol. I think it would be COOLER if Jon was Brandon's son because we know so little about Brandon, so this might be a hint to what Brandon might have been like, apart from the things we know about him. People will again say "but Brandon was tall and Jon isn't", well Dayne's (presuming Ashara is his mother) are not tall, they are a Dornish family. Even if they don't look like other Dornishmen, Arthur Dayne is often portrayed as being significantly shorter than Gerold Hightower for instance. Which Brandon wouldn't be. Anyway, Brandon was not as shy or modest as Ned, obviously but he was a womaniser, something Jon isn't. Still, it's not all about the father, children DO inherit something from their mothers too. Anyway, Jon wasn't that shy and clumsy with Ygritte anyway. It's just that, as a bastard, he grew up being the shunned one and girls also were likely to ignore him because nobody wants to marry a bastard, that's why he wasn't able to be a womaniser.

And one more thing: when he hears his father has been executed, Jon rushes off to King's Landing, despite knowing he may get killed. This was the same thing Brandon did when his father was captured and I dare say Eddard would not do, he'd be more cautious. Because thats his nature, he is described as reserved and is viewed by some as cold. Brandon was warm. Jon is warm. See?

[kissdbyfire]

@Valens, I don't think Jon is Brandon's son, BUT... Martin said it's likely that Brandon may have fathered a few bastards before dying, so who knows, maybe one will turn up somewhere.

[Valens]

2 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

@Valens, I don't think Jon is Brandon's son, BUT... Martin said it's likely that Brandon may have fathered a few bastards before dying, so who knows, maybe one will turn up somewhere.

Maybe Edric Dayne? Who knows but I still think he fathered Jon. And why did Ashara kill herself? Just because her brother Arthur got killed? Hardly enough a reason...I think it is because she had given birth to a child conceived with a man she didn't love, instead the one she did, which was Ned.

[Ygrain]

6 hours ago, JonisHenryTudor said:

To be fair, the traits you listed are mannerisms or acquired traits, not necessarily genetics. Both my parents are very social, whereas I am very much an introvert. Intelligence is gained, not passed down. Muscle mass, perhaps, but again babies are not born with massive amounts of muscle, that is gained through various activities and the social circle one belongs to. The book even highlights this...Sam is nothing like his father. This is fantasy, so I suppose you can use those as identifiers, but in real life smart, muscular, and social parents do not necessarily beget the same thing. 

 

Having said that....Rhaeghar is the daddy.   

Intelligence is inherited, or perhaps better to say that certain ratio is inherited and the rest depends on development.

Jon received the same training as every young noblemen, i.e. sword, lance, horseriding etc., yet he is slender while Robb was muscular. Two boys, of the same age, the same diet and regime, yet apparently two different body types.

Sure, parents can beget very different children, but if you want to build a theory that so-and-so literary character is someone's father, there ought to be some similar traits, and there ain't. Unlike in the cases of the character's several other children.

1 hour ago, Valens said:

It doesn't, does it? But still...it's a possibility. As I wrote last, I still think Ned is more likely to be his father. But I don't discount the Rhaegar theory I just don't like that people have taken it as given, as if Martin himself wrote or said that he IS the father.

In a way, he did write it

[Red Man Racey]

51 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I think most readers, and I don't mean those who post here or participate in other online discussions, aren't aware of R+L=J. Some will have, but I think they're the minority. I say this based on my own RL 'sample'; most of my friends/acquaintances didn't pick up on the clues, and were rather shocked when I brought R+L=J.  

This has been my experience as well. Any time I talk to someone who has read the books I ask who they think Jon's parents are and I rarely, if ever, get an answer other than "Ned + Ashara/Wylla/fisherman's daughter".

It's easy for those of us that participate in online forums dedicated to the books to forget that the majority of readers do not participate in online forums dedicated to the books -- they read the books and that's it. This drastically skews estimates of "how many people picked up on XXXXXXX". The people who flock to online discussions of the novels aren't the normal [casual] reader -- we read the books; then studied the books; and then analyzed every page, line, and word looking for hidden clues. We are definitely the minority and so assuming that "Martin wouldn't do XXXXXX because everybody sees it coming" is a flawed argument. 

[kissdbyfire]

7 minutes ago, Red Man Racey said:

This has been my experience as well. Any time I talk to someone who has read the books I ask who they think Jon's parents are and I rarely, if ever, get an answer other than "Ned + Ashara/Wylla/fisherman's daughter".

It's easy for those of us that participate in online forums dedicated to the books to forget that the majority of readers do not participate in online forums dedicated to the books -- they read the books and that's it. This drastically skews estimates of "how many people picked up on XXXXXXX". The people who flock to online discussions of the novels aren't the normal [casual] reader -- we read the books; then studied the books; and then analyzed every page, line, and word looking for hidden clues. We are definitely the minority and so assuming that "Martin wouldn't do XXXXXX because everybody sees it coming" is a flawed argument. 

Some RL friends still think I'm making shit up because of R+L=J; others, who became more hardcore fans and re-read the novels looking for the clues later said they couldn't believe they'd missed it at first. 

[Consigliere]

13 minutes ago, Red Man Racey said:

This has been my experience as well. Any time I talk to someone who has read the books I ask who they think Jon's parents are and I rarely, if ever, get an answer other than "Ned + Ashara/Wylla/fisherman's daughter".

It's easy for those of us that participate in online forums dedicated to the books to forget that the majority of readers do not participate in online forums dedicated to the books -- they read the books and that's it. This drastically skews estimates of "how many people picked up on XXXXXXX". The people who flock to online discussions of the novels aren't the normal [casual] reader -- we read the books; then studied the books; and then analyzed every page, line, and word looking for hidden clues. We are definitely the minority and so assuming that "Martin wouldn't do XXXXXX because everybody sees it coming" is a flawed argument. 

Just to add to this: Polls have been conducted several times on this forum concerning R+L=J and the results were consistently around a 50/50 split between those who figured it out on their own and those who read in online. This is quite telling as the sample consists of people invested enough in the series to join a forum dedicated to the books and is a death knell for the "R+L=J is too obvious" argument. I agree, the percentage of 'casual readers' who have reached this conclusion on their own is likely much, much lower.

[TimJames]

I'm not sure how likely it is, but Jon Snow being Robert's Son would make me happy.

[The Fattest Leech]

22 hours ago, A spoon of knife and fork said:

Actually as anyone who's been pregnant knows, due dates are set at 40 weeks after the estimated conception date.  40 weeks is almost 10 months (certainly closer to 10 than 9).  10 month long pregnancies are actually not rare at all. 

Not that this makes it very likely that Robert is Jons dad. 

You are absolutely correct. And actually anything 40-42 weeks on the first pregnancy is totally normal. It usually takes the first two weeks for the whole egg+sperm mixture and then implantation. The first two weeks are often "hidden" and that is why the Idea that pregnancy is only 9 months. Subsequent pregnancies are usually right on time, more predictable and labor is easier. Usually because , yes, there could always be that one case. 

[Valens]

37 minutes ago, TimJames said:

I'm not sure how likely it is, but Jon Snow being Robert's Son would make me happy.

How is that possible? He looks like a quintessential Stark! All Robert's bastards, more or less, had Robert's features. Black hair, blue eyes, right? Jon has brown hair and grey eyes. And Robert didn't even touch Lyanna, it seems. They had just gotten engaged when she was "kidnapped" by Rhaegar. Robert may have loved her but it doesn't mean he got to impregnate her or that Lyanna would have let him do it so soon after engagement. She was headstrong, as Ned pointed out to Robert. Plus, if Jon had really been Robert's, don't you think Ned would have told him? Knowing his love for Lyanna, Robert would probably make him his heir or something similar. Given him a place in the kingsguard at least.

[The Ned's Little Girl]

1 hour ago, Valens said:

Plus, if Jon had really been Robert's, don't you think Ned would have told him? Knowing his love for Lyanna, Robert would probably make him his heir or something similar. Given him a place in the kingsguard at least.

 Exactly.

The possibility of anybody besides Rhaegar being Jon Snow's father founders on the question of "why the secrecy, then?"

If Robert is the father, why keep that fact from him? Why keep that fact from Catelyn? Why keep that fact from Jon?

[LyrnaSnowBunnyAvenger]

On 3/29/2016 at 5:59 PM, Christopher Six said:

One of my friends actually came up with the theory of how possibly Jon will be put in fire when trying to dispose of him, rather hang him turning into the Others. Anyways, when they put him in the fire my friend said it will "wake the dragon"...so what about that idea?

I don't understand what you are asking here.  That Jon will somehow have a Dany moment and not burn?  That's not going to happen.  We've clearly seen the fact that fire burns Jon and GRRM has said the Dany thing was basically a once in a lifetime moment.  Is being dumped into a raging fire, dead, suddenly going to reanimate Jon with the scream of "I am Dragon! Hear me roar!".  I would have to stop reading. 

OP - No.  Just no.  Robert is not the father.  I know people hate accepting it, but just deal with R+L=J.  Maybe it is bitter for you to swallow, but it is really the only thing that makes sense given all of the textual clues.  Sticking your head in the sand doesn't make the lion go away. 

Sweensunray - loved your posts on the extrovert/introvert debate. 

[Kal-L]

No. Just no.

13 hours ago, Ygrain said:

As an introverted person, I very much appreciate the insight :-)

Aside from introversy and certain melancholism, there are other traits in Jon, both physical and mental, which definitely point to someone else than Robert.

Robert used to be tall and muscular. Jon is neither - no exceptional height or musculature.

Robert was never noted for being keenly intelligent; Jon shows intelligence and wit and we learn, from a passing remark, that he bested Robb in about anything they were taught (which earned him looks from Cat). Rhaegar showed the same keen intelligence as a child. Innovativeness and creativity in his leadership, ability to see the big picture... none of this we see in Robert.

Robert isn't Jon's father but concerning the bold, the Baratheon actually showed to be an extremely good general war winning multiple battles under terrible odd. I guess he had to be quite creative and ingenious to achieve it

[JonisHenryTudor]

6 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Intelligence is inherited, or perhaps better to say that certain ratio is inherited and the rest depends on development.

Jon received the same training as every young noblemen, i.e. sword, lance, horseriding etc., yet he is slender while Robb was muscular. Two boys, of the same age, the same diet and regime, yet apparently two different body types.

Sure, parents can beget very different children, but if you want to build a theory that so-and-so literary character is someone's father, there ought to be some similar traits, and there ain't. Unlike in the cases of the character's several other children.

 

This idea is also one of the fundamental underpinnings for the pseudo-scientific development of 19th century racism that suggests some people were less than others...

This I can agree with, which (again) is why I said that this is a fantasy novel so it doesn't have to follow real world rules. There is a reason paternity tests are used in court (in the US at least), but abstract traits are not. In Martin's world, however, it does make sense. My initial response was only to suggest that outward traits are not necessarily indicative of reality. Look at Ghost, for example. He is an anomaly. If Ghost were 2 mile/Km down the road--aside from rarity and proximity to the others--how many people (in the north) would suggest that Ghost according to his external traits belonged to the mother Ned found dead? His external traits suggests that he is of a different litter, but he is not in reality (book reality). Obviously in Ghost's case, Martin is playing with several things, but I only point out that in most cases there needs to be something more than external features to suggest that one thing is tied to another. 

 

But to make this about the book. Obviously we can't hope that Jon will get a paternity test :). BUT Martin does provide that for us, in a sense, which comes in the form of multiple hints strewn across the novels regarding Jon's parentage. For us, Jon's paternity test is the culmination of numerous clues in the story. Now who plays the lab rat... Bran? Howland Reed? The reason why we (you) can look at Jon's traits is because we have all of those clues to begin with. Let's, for a moment, pretend that Martin removed every single clue from the story, and all we had was  a "bastard" in the north who was mysterious. That's it. No backstory. Nothing. How many readers would think, well Rhaegar must have slept with Ned's sister. I may be on a limb here, but I doubt anyone would make that connection without having a single clue in front of them. The traits begin to make sense because of the other concrete information that exists. 

[Julia H.]

17 hours ago, Wall Flower said:

Sweetsunray, speaking as a definite introvert, I can't tell you how much I've enjoyed your posts in this thread. I think the trouble with the nurture viewpoint is that it comes a little to close to regarding extroversion as the norm or default, with introversion something that comes out of a difficult childhood rather than a natural variation of personality (whether heritable or not). Whatever the scientific limits of personality tests like Myer Briggs, I personally found it really helpful to be able to see introversion as just a personality trait rather than an aberration that I had to train myself out of.

While Jon Snow has his detractors as a character, I thought that he was really well written as a non-cliched introvert. Jon's certainly one of the most introspective characters in the books and I found myself really relating to the way his mind worked.

Jon wants to be Ned's perfect copy but I'm not so sure that he is. He's much less conventional in his thinking than Ned, capable of thinking outside the box and looking at the big picture seems to come naturally to him. We don't know enough about Rhaegar to say that Jon gets this from him, but I don't see Jon being much like Ned or Robert in this regard.  

I felt exactly the same, even wondered what makes me relate to this character and his introspection so much. I'm pretty much an introvert, too (a very sociable one, but still an introvert). Your post and sweetsunray's excellent posts were a real eye-opener in this respect to me. 

6 hours ago, Valens said:

Brandon was more adventurous than Ned, so again-we come back to my theory! Right now, I'm kinda divided...lol. I think it would be COOLER if Jon was Brandon's son because we know so little about Brandon, so this might be a hint to what Brandon might have been like, apart from the things we know about him. People will again say "but Brandon was tall and Jon isn't", well Dayne's (presuming Ashara is his mother) are not tall, they are a Dornish family. Even if they don't look like other Dornishmen, Arthur Dayne is often portrayed as being significantly shorter than Gerold Hightower for instance. Which Brandon wouldn't be. Anyway, Brandon was not as shy or modest as Ned, obviously but he was a womaniser, something Jon isn't. Still, it's not all about the father, children DO inherit something from their mothers too. Anyway, Jon wasn't that shy and clumsy with Ygritte anyway. It's just that, as a bastard, he grew up being the shunned one and girls also were likely to ignore him because nobody wants to marry a bastard, that's why he wasn't able to be a womaniser.

And one more thing: when he hears his father has been executed, Jon rushes off to King's Landing, despite knowing he may get killed. This was the same thing Brandon did when his father was captured and I dare say Eddard would not do, he'd be more cautious. Because thats his nature, he is described as reserved and is viewed by some as cold. Brandon was warm. Jon is warm. See?

There is nothing we know about Brandon's personality that I could relate specifically to Jon Snow (and we know next to nothing about his appearance).

On the bolded: No, I don't see it. Jon did not rush to King's Landing when he heard that his father had been killed. He was going to secretly join his brother Robb's army to help him in his war against the Lannisters. That's a totally different idea from rushing to King's Landing basically alone and loudly threaten the crown prince with death for everyone to hear. Yes, Jon realized that he could die (like everyone who goes to war), but he was planning to do something helpful for his living brother instead of just getting himself killed. 

In addition, Brandon didn't rush to King's Landing after his father was captured, he rushed to King's Landing after Rhaegar took Lyanna. Brandon could have no idea whether either Rhaegar or Lyanna happened to be in King's Landing at all, but what he did was hardly a useful idea to free her in any circumstances. Brandon's father actually went to King's Landing after that, to get Brandon out of prison and was captured as a result. 

Totally different.

Apart from the above, the idea that Jon would have been a womaniser if only he hadn't grown up as a bastard and had actually started womanising (and no, his romance with Ygritte does not make him a secret womaniser) makes me think of Lady Catherine de Bourgh in Pride and Prejudice, who is certain that she would have been a great pianist if she had ever bothered to learn to play the piano. You can have such fantasies, but it would be difficult to find any less convincing "proof" that Jon might be Brandon's son . 

[Valens]

18 minutes ago, Julia H. said:

I felt exactly the same, even wondered what makes me relate to this character and his introspection so much. I'm pretty much an introvert, too (a very sociable one, but still an introvert). Your post and sweetsunray's excellent posts were a real eye-opener in this respect to me. 

There is nothing we know about Brandon's personality that I could relate specifically to Jon Snow (and we know next to nothing about his appearance).

On the bolded: No, I don't see it. Jon did not rush to King's Landing when he heard that his father had been killed. He was going to secretly join his brother Robb's army to help him in his war against the Lannisters. That's a totally different idea from rushing to King's Landing basically alone and loudly threaten the crown prince with death for everyone to hear. Yes, Jon realized that he could die (like everyone who goes to war), but he was planning to do something helpful for his living brother instead of just getting himself killed. 

In addition, Brandon didn't rush to King's Landing after his father was captured, he rushed to King's Landing after Rhaegar took Lyanna. Brandon could have no idea whether either Rhaegar or Lyanna happened to be in King's Landing at all, but what he did was hardly a useful idea to free her in any circumstances. Brandon's father actually went to King's Landing after that, to get Brandon out of prison and was captured as a result. 

Totally different.

Apart from the above, the idea that Jon would have been a womaniser if only he hadn't grown up as a bastard and had actually started womanising (and no, his romance with Ygritte does not make him a secret womaniser) makes me think of Lady Catherine de Bourgh in Pride and Prejudice, who is certain that she would have been a great pianist if she had ever bothered to learn to play the piano. You can have such fantasies, but it would be difficult to find any less convincing "proof" that Jon might be Brandon's son . 

This is obviously one of the most ardent supporters of the R+L=J theory. Sorry if I "insulted" you, but those are my thoughts and suggestions. Brandon Stark COULD HAVE impregnated Ashara Dayne and she COULD HAVE been Jon's mother. This is not like some real happening where you know all the facts and evidence. And by the way, saying Brandon didn't rush to KL because of his father but sister is like saying "it's not potato, it's potaato". It's the same thing!

[JonisHenryTudor]

6 hours ago, Ygrain said:

 

In a way, he did write it

Yep. That and I think the reason why people take this as a given is because it has been discussed for how many years now? It is not as if the idea popped up after DwD hit bookshelves everywhere. 

 

Also...the show short of gives that away with all the clues last season and the ToJ flashback this coming season. Why else would they have a ToJ flashback but for that very reason? 

 

The writing is on the wall....or support beam ;). 

[Ygrain]

8 minutes ago, Valens said:

This is obviously one of the most ardent supporters of the R+L=J theory. Sorry if I "insulted" you, but those are my thoughts and suggestions.

And their logic got shredded. That happens.

8 minutes ago, Valens said:

Brandon Stark COULD HAVE impregnated Ashara Dayne

Agreed, he fits the profile of a guy who could have

8 minutes ago, Valens said:

and she COULD HAVE been Jon's mother.

...and in this case, Ned would have zero reason to take Jon away from her and never tell anyone, not to mention that Brandon had been  dead for several months at the time when Jon was conceived.

8 minutes ago, Valens said:

This is not like some real happening where you know all the facts and evidence. And by the way, saying Brandon didn't rush to KL because of his father but sister is like saying "it's not potato, it's potaato". It's the same thing!

And ignoring the causes and consequences is like ignoring whether the potato is cut, roasted or stolen.

25 minutes ago, JonisHenryTudor said:

This idea is also one of the fundamental underpinnings for the pseudo-scientific development of 19th century racism that suggests some people were less than others.

Intelligence is a very complex quality and some traits can be inherited, that's fact. Ascribing value to the said fact is the said pseudoscience :-)

 

25 minutes ago, JonisHenryTudor said:

This I can agree with, which (again) is why I said that this is a fantasy novel so it doesn't have to follow real world rules. There is a reason paternity tests are used in court (in the US at least), but abstract traits are not. In Martin's world, however, it does make sense. My initial response was only to suggest that outward traits are not necessarily indicative of reality. Look at Ghost, for example. He is an anomaly. If Ghost were 2 mile/Km down the road--aside from rarity and proximity to the others--how many people (in the north) would suggest that Ghost according to his external traits belonged to the mother Ned found dead? His external traits suggests that he is of a different litter, but he is not in reality (book reality). Obviously in Ghost's case, Martin is playing with several things, but I only point out that in most cases there needs to be something more than external features to suggest that one thing is tied to another. 

I do not necessarily disagree :-) I was merely pointing out that for Robert as a prospective father, there are neither external nor internal features that would allow to make any conenction, and, of course, a complete absence of any textual hints that Robert ever laid as much as a finger on Lyanna :-)

25 minutes ago, JonisHenryTudor said:

But to make this about the book. Obviously we can't hope that Jon will get a paternity test :). BUT Martin does provide that for us, in a sense, which comes in the form of multiple hints strewn across the novels regarding Jon's parentage. For us, Jon's paternity test is the culmination of numerous clues in the story. Now who plays the lab rat... Bran? Howland Reed? The reason why we (you) can look at Jon's traits is because we have all of those clues to begin with. Let's, for a moment, pretend that Martin removed every single clue from the story, and all we had was  a "bastard" in the north who was mysterious. That's it. No backstory. Nothing. How many readers would think, well Rhaegar must have slept with Ned's sister. I may be on a limb here, but I doubt anyone would make that connection without having a single clue in front of them. The traits begin to make sense because of the other concrete information that exists. 

That depends, what exactly do you mean by "backstory"? For me, the biggest clue was Ned's behaviour, which didn't make any sense to me and seemed out of character, until I realized that it makes sense only if Ned s not Jon's father and is covering up for someone. Whom? Jon looks like a Stark, so family, and we do know that Ned lies for the sake of family. No reason to cover up for Brandon or Benjen, it is not considered as a big deal for a man to father a bastard. Whereas, for women... so, who was Lyanna - OMFG! 

Feel free to interrupt the deductive chain at any point which you consider "backstory" and tell me how far you have got.

[JonisHenryTudor]

29 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

 

That depends, what exactly do you mean by "backstory"? For me, the biggest clue was Ned's behaviour, which didn't make any sense to me and seemed out of character, until I realized that it makes sense only if Ned s not Jon's father and is covering up for someone. Whom? Jon looks like a Stark, so family, and we do know that Ned lies for the sake of family. No reason to cover up for Brandon or Benjen, it is not considered as a big deal for a man to father a bastard. Whereas, for women... so, who was Lyanna - OMFG! 

Feel free to interrupt the deductive chain at any point which you consider "backstory" and tell me how far you have got.

Removing any hint that R+L was a thing. Ned's thoughts in the dungeon, etc. Basically remove anything clue in the narrative that ties Jon to L+R. That includes Lyanna's story, the tourney, and just everything. In the end we are left with a bastard in the north. 

That right there (bold) is what I am getting at. You are (or you seem to be) relying on an understanding of medieval social norms (closely followed in Westeros), Ned's behavior, etc. You came to a conclusion based on tiny bits of evidence that Ned would only protect his sister's honor since nobody would have thought twice about his brothers. Then perhaps subconsciously (or not) you immediately thought of the awkward story of Lyanna and Rhaegar and concluded that " Lyanna - OMFG!" What you didn't say above was Jon was slender, an introvert, dark hair, signs of intelligence "OMFG he is L+R son". Basically...these outward traits that you initially listed are supplemental bits of information that help us color in the picture. Sort of like the "overkill evidence in a murder scene" that drives the point home, but is not necessarily the reason for the discovery nor acceptable as standalone evidence. Those traits help bolster the story and make the case stronger. That is all really... 

 

Sorry I am not trying to turn this thread into something completely insane, but let's say for sake of argument that all the evidence/narrative stays the same but:

Jon has blond hair, muscular, oafish, a socialite, and perhaps he loves the sea. Would that change how you viewed Ned's behavior? Or how you understood the additional clues? All I am really suggesting is what ties Jon to R+L is a series of clues that are independent of Jon's external features or mannerisms.