Why didn't Tywin get Joffrey to release Jaime from the Kingsguard?

[corbon]

On 10/04/2016 at 1:37 AM, Ser Frasier of House Crane said:

If Tywin's aim was to get Jaime back as his heir, and with Joffrey having created precedent in dismissing Barristan from the Kingsguard, why not dismiss Jaime instead of promoting him to Lord Commander of the Kingsguard? You could argue that with Jaime captured at the time, he's not really fulfilling his Kingsguardly duties, so why not put someone in as his replacement? That way, if Jaime survives, Tywin gets his heir and gets Joffrey to put Jaime back in the line of succession?

1. Tywin does not need Jaime at Casterly rock now or in the immediate future - he expects to be holding that role himself for many years to come.
2. Lord Commander of the KG is a very useful position for Jaime to fill
 - for protecting Lannister interests in general
 - for protecting Lannisters in KL in particular
 - for general political prestige
 - for important choices and positioning/locations in case of an attempt to remove Lannister influence over the crown
 - as a potential stick to hold over enemies or opponents
3. Can you think of anyone that would work better for Tywin as LCotKG?
4. Other than Tywin, Cersei wants Jaime in KL with her.

It simply doesn't make any sense, in Tywin's shoes, to have Jaime released from the KG at this time.
Then he's dead, and its too late...

[Hos the Hostage]

We must consider the possibility that Tywin got used to the idea of Jaime being in KG, and hoped that Jaime will be renowned as a great knight among the ranks of Aemon the Dragonknight and Arthur Dayne. Aerys denied him chances of glory, but this was not to be so with Robert. So we can't blame Tywin for letting Jaime continue as KG. KG is a prestigious position, after all.

But that leaves the question of who did Tywin want to become the Lord of Casterly Rock? Definitely not Tyrion, because Tywin made that clear enough. Although at the time of GoT, Tyrion probably stood a chance if only he gave up whoring.  Now that is hypocritical of Tywin, but the whole idea of Tywin enjoying whore are all planted in our minds thanks to Varys's words or actions - Maybe Shae was there under Varys's order, maybe the Hand who ordered to build the tunnel was not Tywin..That is a lot of maybe's. but realistically, who else to rule the Rock?

>Tommen (When Robert was alive, Renly had Storm's End, and Stannis had Dragonstone - their heirs were supposed to inherit these respective castles, leaving Tommen in a position similar to Maekar or Rhaegel. By giving Tommen the Rock, Tywin would have the most Lannisterly Lannister becoming the  Lord of the Rock.)

>Tyrion's child by a highborn lady, hopefully not a dwarf. Tywin may have hated Tyrion, but if Tyrion married well - say to Lysa or Arianne, their child would have some high status of his/her own (Girls are low in succession, but 'a daughter comes before an uncle'), and Tywin could train the child well, then Tywin would have been okay with the arrangements.

>Lancel or Kevan's younger sons

>Tyrek Lannister

 

[Danelle]

7 hours ago, Geddus said:

I think if Robert wanted to do Tywin a favour, he would have kicked Jaime out of the Kingsguard - which would have been a far less eyebrow-raising move than keeping him was. I'm pretty sure the Kingslayer kept on guarding the King because it was a slight to Tywin, and because Robert found it funny.

I don't think that this is supported by the text.

 

Robert was in a difficult position.

He had fought a war and eliminated the Targaryens, with the help of Jon Arryn, Ned Stark and Tywin Lannister. The latter's contribution was the murders of Rhaegar's heirs. Robert harbored a deep hatred for the Targaryens and he did not share Ned's disgust at the murder of Rhaenys and Aegon. What Tywin did, no matter how ignoble, cemented Robert's claim to the throne. All the Targaryens who mattered were gone. 

Nevertheless, what Tywin did cannot be compared to Jaime, a KG knight murdering the king he had sworn to protect. Nothing similar had occurred before in the long history of Westeros. Robert could have listened to Ned and Barristan, who were wary of Jaime and his motives, and sent him to CB. This way he would have indulged Ned and Barristan and showed Tywin who is boss, by appointing his favourite son to a post that it was considered humiliating-at that time.

He didn't. 

If he released Jaime and allowed him to continue life as a highborn noble, it would be a scandal.

If he forced Jaime to take the black, and be further isolated by his family, all the Lannisters, including Robert's young bride, would be insulted.

It was not the best solution, I agree but it was the only way to maintain a difficult balance between the opposing factions who supported Robert. And of course, it was not Robert who thought of pardoning Jaime and allow him to remain a KG knight. Jon Arryn did it.

Quote

 At the least, Robert should have stripped the white cloak from Jaime and sent him to the Wall, as Lord Stark urged. He listened to Jon Arryn instead.

Besides Robert did the Lannisters many favours, one of them was appointing Ser Ilyn as King's Justice.

Quote

Ser Ilyn's appointment had been a wedding gift from Robert Baratheon to the father of his bride, a sinecure to compensate Payne for the tongue he'd lost in the service of House Lannister. 

 

[joluoto2]

When Jaime came back Joffrey was already dead. Tywin had his mind on Tyrion's trial among other things, but still offered Jaime the idea. Tywin was probably going to have Tommen dismiss Jaime, but there were other issues. Jaime was Lord Commander, and who would replace him? The Lord Commander of the king's bodyguards must be a trusted person. The kingsguard members present were idiots and people Tywin did not trust (Loras Tyrell for obvious reasons, and I don't think Tywin trusted Balon Swann for the simple reason that he hardly knew the man). So Jaime would have to be LC until Tywin had found a suitable replacement.

[Geddus]

15 hours ago, Danelle said:

If he released Jaime and allowed him to continue life as a highborn noble, it would be a scandal.

I don't understand why releasing Jaime would have been a bigger scandal than keeping him, honestly.

Jaime not only killed the person he was supposed to protect, but as far as anyone was concerned he did it to further his father's interests. So, since being in the Kingsguard is considered a great honor, Jaime was basically rewarded for doing maybe the worst thing he could do.

I think people like Ned or Barristan would have been less outraged if he was stripped of his cloak and sent back to Casterly Rock. Tywin, on the other hand, would have been ecstatic; who knows, maybe he could have even cracked a smile...

[Danelle]

Keeping Jaime, means that he is pardoned for murdering Aerys, which Barristan and Ned considered to be insulting but also means that he is allowed to be in a position coveted by several knights in the Kingdom, protect his sister (before him Lewyn Martell was also protecting the King and his niece Elia) without being able to inherit his father's lands, marry and father legitimate heirs.

On the other hand, if Jaime is pardoned and allowed to return to CR, instead of going to NW(a brother of the NW is bound by rules similar to the ones that KG knights follow), it means that not only he is getting away with murder but also that he will be married(possibly to a lady from the Westerlands) and have legitamate heirs. Jaime would continue his life, without any restrictions imposed by the KG rules. Also Tywin, not only he would have contributed to the deaths of the Targaryens but won his beloved son back and have his daughter a queen.  

[Neds Secret]

On 10 April 2016 at 5:08 AM, Ser Frasier of House Crane said:

But why would Tywin care what Jaime wanted? If Joffrey decreed that Jaime had to go back to Casterly Rock, he would've been forced to do so.

He might have just sat stabbed Joffrey in the back and taken his chances at getting pardoned by Tommen so he could stay with Cersei! Sexual obsession can make people do strange things and not think rationally, people will do almost anything to be close and stay close to the object of their obsession!

[239JMFL34109]

why make jaime more valuable when he is in the hands of the enemy? By the time tywin knows jaime is safe joffery is dead and their is a trial to run.  

[John Suburbs]

On ‎4‎/‎13‎/‎2016 at 0:59 AM, corbon said:

1. Tywin does not need Jaime at Casterly rock now or in the immediate future - he expects to be holding that role himself for many years to come.
2. Lord Commander of the KG is a very useful position for Jaime to fill
 - for protecting Lannister interests in general
 - for protecting Lannisters in KL in particular
 - for general political prestige
 - for important choices and positioning/locations in case of an attempt to remove Lannister influence over the crown
 - as a potential stick to hold over enemies or opponents
3. Can you think of anyone that would work better for Tywin as LCotKG?
4. Other than Tywin, Cersei wants Jaime in KL with her.

It simply doesn't make any sense, in Tywin's shoes, to have Jaime released from the KG at this time.
Then he's dead, and its too late...

I don't follow. If Tywin thinks it's so great to have Jaime as the LC, what was the point of all this?:

"Your sister was foolish to dismiss Selmy, admittedly, but now that she has opened the gates --"

"-- someone needs to close them again. I am tired of having highborn women kicking pails of shit at me, Father. No one ever asked me if I wanted to be Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, but it seems I am. I have a duty --"

"You do. A duty to House Lannister. You are the heir to Casterly Rock. There is where you should be. Tommen should accompany you, as your ward and squire. The Rock is where he'll learn to be a Lannister, and I want him away from his mother. I mean to find a new husband for Cersei..." snip "...And it is past time you wed. The Tyrells are now insisting that Margaery be wed to Tommen, but if I were to offer you instead --"

"NO!" No. No. No. No. No. How many times must I say no before you'll hear it? ... snip... "I don't want her and I don't want your Rock!"

"You are my son --"

"I am a Knight of the Kingsguard. The Lord Commander of the Kingsguard. And that's all I mean to be! Father..."

"You are no son of mine."

It sounds to me like Tywin wants Jaime out ASAP so he can fob him off on the Tyrells and keep his options open for Tommen.

[pigpiginsunspear]

56 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

I don't follow. If Tywin thinks it's so great to have Jaime as the LC, what was the point of all this?:

"Your sister was foolish to dismiss Selmy, admittedly, but now that she has opened the gates --"

"-- someone needs to close them again. I am tired of having highborn women kicking pails of shit at me, Father. No one ever asked me if I wanted to be Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, but it seems I am. I have a duty --"

"You do. A duty to House Lannister. You are the heir to Casterly Rock. There is where you should be. Tommen should accompany you, as your ward and squire. The Rock is where he'll learn to be a Lannister, and I want him away from his mother. I mean to find a new husband for Cersei..." snip "...And it is past time you wed. The Tyrells are now insisting that Margaery be wed to Tommen, but if I were to offer you instead --"

"NO!" No. No. No. No. No. How many times must I say no before you'll hear it? ... snip... "I don't want her and I don't want your Rock!"

"You are my son --"

"I am a Knight of the Kingsguard. The Lord Commander of the Kingsguard. And that's all I mean to be! Father..."

"You are no son of mine."

It sounds to me like Tywin wants Jaime out ASAP so he can fob him off on the Tyrells and keep his options open for Tommen.

Yes. Exactly.  Tywin was not interested in having anyone else but Jaime be heir to Casterly Rock.

He was planning to get Jaime off the KG- he just died before succeeding.

A Royal Dismissal was probably his last resort.  It was humiliating to be dismissed from the KG.  A taint on a KG's honor for sure.  I don't think he would want that for House Lannister (especially given the kingslayer nickname Jaime already earned) unless it was absolutely necessary.

[corbon]

4 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

I don't follow. If Tywin thinks it's so great to have Jaime as the LC, what was the point of all this?:

"Your sister was foolish to dismiss Selmy, admittedly, but now that she has opened the gates --"

"-- someone needs to close them again. I am tired of having highborn women kicking pails of shit at me, Father. No one ever asked me if I wanted to be Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, but it seems I am. I have a duty --"

"You do. A duty to House Lannister. You are the heir to Casterly Rock. There is where you should be. Tommen should accompany you, as your ward and squire. The Rock is where he'll learn to be a Lannister, and I want him away from his mother. I mean to find a new husband for Cersei..." snip "...And it is past time you wed. The Tyrells are now insisting that Margaery be wed to Tommen, but if I were to offer you instead --"

"NO!" No. No. No. No. No. How many times must I say no before you'll hear it? ... snip... "I don't want her and I don't want your Rock!"

"You are my son --"

"I am a Knight of the Kingsguard. The Lord Commander of the Kingsguard. And that's all I mean to be! Father..."

"You are no son of mine."

It sounds to me like Tywin wants Jaime out ASAP so he can fob him off on the Tyrells and keep his options open for Tommen.

Sure. He still considers Jaime his heir and wants him at Casterly Rock. But the time is not now. He would like it to be now, but it doesn't work if Jaime is so unwilling. So, Tywin waits, continuing to take the advantages offered by having Jaime as LC of the KG for now.

There is no point dismissing Jaime and losing all the advantages while Jaime is so adamantly opposed to the plan and uncooperative. Therefore he doesn't dismiss Jaime yet. If there weren't considerable advantages, he could just have Jaime dismissed anyway, uncooperative or not, because nothing would be lost and Jaime wouldn't have a point to fight him on any more.

[239JMFL34109]

5 minutes ago, corbon said:

Sure. He still considers Jaime his heir and wants him at Casterly Rock. But the time is not now. He would like it to be now, but it doesn't work if Jaime is so unwilling. So, Tywin waits, continuing to take the advantages offered by having Jaime as LC of the KG for now.

There is no point dismissing Jaime and losing all the advantages while Jaime is so adamantly opposed to the plan and uncooperative. Therefore he doesn't dismiss Jaime yet. If there weren't considerable advantages, he could just have Jaime dismissed anyway, uncooperative or not, because nothing would be lost and Jaime wouldn't have a point to fight him on any more.

yep also BTW joffrey is dead by this time in the books...jaime was a prisoner as far as tywin's concerned till after joffrey's death. 

[John Suburbs]

32 minutes ago, corbon said:

Sure. He still considers Jaime his heir and wants him at Casterly Rock. But the time is not now. He would like it to be now, but it doesn't work if Jaime is so unwilling. So, Tywin waits, continuing to take the advantages offered by having Jaime as LC of the KG for now.

There is no point dismissing Jaime and losing all the advantages while Jaime is so adamantly opposed to the plan and uncooperative. Therefore he doesn't dismiss Jaime yet. If there weren't considerable advantages, he could just have Jaime dismissed anyway, uncooperative or not, because nothing would be lost and Jaime wouldn't have a point to fight him on any more.

Perhaps, but I suspect he was going to toss him out right after the wedding and before he (Tywin) marched north. After all, how can Jaime be expected to guard the king with only one hand? And where else would Jaime go except back to CR?

But it's all moot now.

[corbon]

6 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Perhaps, but I suspect he was going to toss him out right after the wedding and before he (Tywin) marched north. After all, how can Jaime be expected to guard the king with only one hand? And where else would Jaime go except back to CR?

He probably had that idea, yes. But with Jaime so dead set against it, might as well keep the advantages while waiting for a better time. And 'guarding the king' needs absolute trust and commitment from the LC, more than weapon skill. Others can provide the weapons skill (and arguably, pretty much everyone else still thinks Jaime can too).

6 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

But it's all moot now.

Well, yes.
But people like to have an explanation they can understand to match the facts they see before them. To many people bemoan the facts because they choose an explanation that doesn't make sense to them or doesn't fit the facts, rather than seeking another explanation that fits the facts and also makes sense.

[RoamingRonin]

I never thought about this before. Jaime could have been forced from the kingsguard no matter how hard he refused. Good post, OP.

[Breastplate Stretcha]

Because both Joffrey and Jaime wanted Jaime to remain in the Kingsguard...

[dreem24]

Jaime is not a bad man with two hands or one just a stupid one... He could have a rich castle and well almost everyting anyone could want but instead he got lead by the b*lls by his own sister for so many years...

As for not firing him from KG well i have no idea... Just a blank srsly sorry... 

Perhaps he hoped Jaime would take his place as heir of the castle and didnt want to force him or something(no idea why he's not dad of the year material)...

Or had Tywin not died and with Tyrion's execution coming he could have fired him afterwards... However this did not happen...

[John Suburbs]

On ‎4‎/‎15‎/‎2016 at 9:54 PM, corbon said:

He probably had that idea, yes. But with Jaime so dead set against it, might as well keep the advantages while waiting for a better time. And 'guarding the king' needs absolute trust and commitment from the LC, more than weapon skill. Others can provide the weapons skill (and arguably, pretty much everyone else still thinks Jaime can too).

Well, yes.
But people like to have an explanation they can understand to match the facts they see before them. To many people bemoan the facts because they choose an explanation that doesn't make sense to them or doesn't fit the facts, rather than seeking another explanation that fits the facts and also makes sense.

Lol, well, count me in that group then, because I can't imagine a man like Tywin Lannister giving up on Jaime just like that. If Jaime doesn't take CR, then it will pass to Tyrion, who will turn it into a whorehouse, or Cersei, whose sons will have a different name, or he has to name his own heir among the lesser branches -- most likely Kevan, with Lancel to follow (ugh). But Tywin's line will end, and to me that is too big a concern to just fob it off with "oh well, at least Tommen has a loyal, albeit swordless, guard."

I think Tywin would have forced Jaime's hand by having him dismissed from the KG with nowhere else to go but back to CR.

[James Arryn]

On April 11, 2016 at 8:58 PM, Ser Frasier of House Crane said:

But can he refuse it, though? Barristan couldn't refuse his dismissal. If it's by royal decree, Jaime has to surrender his white cloak.

There wouldn't be a need to force a possibly unpredictable do or die moment if he could use soft power to address the situation now and use more force later if needed. His history shows he works in priorities, using direct force against his principle objective and indirect force on lesser objectives in the meanwhile. I think he was principally focused on the wrapping up the war, and after that getting Joff/Cersei under control. I think he dies as he is shifting those to the forefront and increasingly dealing with them directly. (With Tyrion being a constant lesser issue dealt with soft power.)

In the meantime having Jaime in KL or leading Lannister forces is where he'd be used anyways, so why push that to the front burner?

[corbon]

5 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Lol, well, count me in that group then, because I can't imagine a man like Tywin Lannister giving up on Jaime just like that.

There is a huge difference between "giving up" and "biding his time". Its not time urgent for him, as he is in good health and expects to hold CR for many years yet himself.

5 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

If Jaime doesn't take CR, then it will pass to Tyrion, who will turn it into a whorehouse, or Cersei, whose sons will have a different name, or he has to name his own heir among the lesser branches -- most likely Kevan, with Lancel to follow (ugh). But Tywin's line will end, and to me that is too big a concern to just fob it off with "oh well, at least Tommen has a loyal, albeit swordless, guard."

I think Tywin would have forced Jaime's hand by having him dismissed from the KG with nowhere else to go but back to CR.

Well, apparently the facts in the book don't back you up. Tywin didn't force Jaime's hand by getting him sacked (yet at least, then he unexpectedly died). It seems rather pointless to insist that he would have done something he didn't do, rather than try to understand why he didn't do what he didn't do...