Doran and Dorne in Season 6

[Ser Quork]

1 hour ago, Wall Flower said:

Even in the books, Doran's original plan was an alliance with Viserys and then Dany well before Aegon appeared on the scene. They could have just finished Season 5 with Doran announcing he had sent a dispatch to Mereen offering Dany full Dornish support to reclaim her throne and including a version of the Fire and Blood speech. Then they could have left Dorne out of the narrative until Dany actually arrives in Westeros. Honestly Dorne allying with Dany makes a lot more sense than Varys being her secret support after voting to assassinate her in Season 1.

*confetti*

*streamers*

So. Much.  Sense!

[lancerman]

3 hours ago, Ser Quork said:

*confetti*

*streamers*

So. Much.  Sense!

Not really. In the actual books Dorne looks like they are going to support Aegon and Dany killed any chance she had when Quentyn died. 

At least in the show they are trying to mirror a vengeful Dorne going against the Lannisters on their own accord. 

The solution that was entered fundamentally alters the actual motivations and events of Dany's storyline to shoehorn Dorne as an ally , and holds everything off for before she gets there. 

We go from a a hollowed out version of the book storyline to a complete fan fiction "what if Dorne and Dany align" scenario, which alters two of the 3 main book storylines. 

[lancerman]

5 hours ago, Maid So Fair said:

Again, how about the Dornish just being pissed off about Oberyns death? This should be the default position for them. If the Dornish plotline is so irrelevant (apart from them declaring war on the Lannisters) why is it even in the show? I honestly don't care whether Doran is a schemer or not - the fact is that we had no idea he was a 'docile pacifist' that would have any scruples declaring war on the Lannisters until they introduced him that way. In season 5. Only to write themselves into a corner and opt for rocks fall, everybody dies ending a couple of episodes either. What was the point?

Besides, if you have to break the fourth wall and  introduce external logic to explain a plotline, it has already failed its narrative purpose because it makes no sense on its own merits.

No it makes sense it's just not as interesting and altered characters from the book, because they can't keep similar motivations without Aegon.

If Doran is just getting revenge for Oberyn then it leaves the big question "why did he not do this for Elia and her children who were many degrees more important to Dorne". 

You don't have to break the fourth wall to understand the fundamentals of what's going on. It's not even slightly complicated. You just have to accept that Doran is not the same guy he is in the books. And Ellaria is a vengeful person. 

Its actually very cut and dry. 

 

 

[Mayura]

17 hours ago, Maid So Fair said:

This is completely irrelevant to my point though, because you are using internal in-stort arguments to respond to an external one. Regardless of the merits of the actual storyline (and it has none), if was their decision to include it in the first place, just as it was their decision to adapt it the way they did. This applies to Dorne more tan to any other plotline because we know for a fact they weren't going to include Dorne at all until Cogman came up with the idea of sending Jaime there and because the Dornish plotline is the show is a completely original creation that bears no resemblance to its book counterpart. As you say there was no conflict in Dorne until they took pains to introduce it in S5.  Excusing the travesty that was its resolution because they 'have go condense plotlines' (that they created and chose to include) makes as sense as praising them for the ingenious decision to burn the magically appearing Meereenese fleet because it solves a plothole (that they also created). Everything in this plotline is on them.

 

I honestly agree with what you're saying. However, I understand as well that, if they decided to include Dorne (no matter how bad it was), they probably wanted to exploit that location and these characters a little bit, hence the fucked up s05 - s06 plot. 

I also think @lancerman has a point, cutting Aegon from the show has affected the dornish storyline as it appears that 

Spoiler

he is a massive part of Doran's "plan" for all we know. And Arianne's storyline in Winds seems to be linked to Aegon's. 

 

But I definitely agree with the fact that they would have benefitted from casting Arianne, even if it meant leaving Ellaria out. But, I assume that, as they had already casted Ellaria to be with Oberyn in KL, they thought they'd just merge Ellaria and Arianne once they decided to explore Dorne afterall... Even a similar revenge plot coming from Arianne would have been more believable. 

 

 

[Cas Stark]

They literally could have cast anyone in the Dorne story and left out the sand snakes and it would be an improvement no matter how they mixed and matched the plot and the characters and their motivation.

What they have done is the absolute worst case scenario, one area where Dan and Dave rarely disappoint these days

[239JMFL34109]

On 4/26/2016 at 6:13 PM, Cas Stark said:

I hope not.  I hope they stay in KL, somebody can have sex with Bronn, they can poison Tommen/Marg or someone, stupidly kill some Lannister redshirts in more poorly choreographed fight scenes with their silly spear and whip,  and then Cersei will have them killed.  That is the best case for Dorne playing out.

Glomming them onto more storylines will only ruin those other storylines and turn the whole thing into Conan.  Do we really need the bad pussy and the white pussy and the no cock/dwarf cock merchant all to meet up?  Please no.

They were leaving king's landing is the thing. Ellaria look for allies makes sense. 

Also i think the Faith vs lannisters as tyrell thing is best left on it's own. i thought maybe one or two might show up in old town stuff with sam but i hope not. 

I just hope we get little of them overall and every other way has them showing up more...

[Cas Stark]

5 minutes ago, 239JMFL34109 said:

They were leaving king's landing is the thing. Ellaria look for allies makes sense. 

Also i think the Faith vs lannisters as tyrell thing is best left on it's own. i thought maybe one or two might show up in old town stuff with sam but i hope not. 

I just hope we get little of them overall and every other way has them showing up more...

Were they?  I didn't get catch that, they simply walked out of the room where they backstabbed their cousin.  

[239JMFL34109]

1 minute ago, Cas Stark said:

Were they?  I didn't get catch that, they simply walked out of the room where they backstabbed their cousin.  

they were on the boat leaving King's landing. Also jaime note says he was sending trystane back to dorne. I hope they leave the show till episode 8 or 10 when they show up with varys and tyrion asking for help. 

[Cas Stark]

11 minutes ago, 239JMFL34109 said:

they were on the boat leaving King's landing. Also jaime note says he was sending trystane back to dorne. I hope they leave the show till episode 8 or 10 when they show up with varys and tyrion asking for help. 

They included the bad pussy scene in the intro to episode 1, that tells me that bad pussy is going to hook up with Bronn, so they will almost certainly be seen again in King's Landing.

[239JMFL34109]

Just now, Cas Stark said:

They included the bad pussy scene in the intro to episode 1, that tells me that bad pussy is going to hook up with Bronn, so they will almost certainly be seen again in King's Landing.

She is with her mother in dorne that means we will get some lannister vs dorne this year. those two can go elsewhere. 

[Special Snowflake]

Hi, firs time poster here....

I just wanted to say that tv show ruined Dorne for me. Of all the things they could cut or keep what they produced is just horrible. Why cast Sidding only to kill him in the first episode? I can understand that the creators like Indira Varma, yes she is a great actress, but Dorne story is not Ellaria's story. Yes, maybe Doran and his heir must die to speed things along and to somehow get Dorne support for Danny, but couldn't it be done a little better? Should we just have a willing suspension of disbelief to everything that happens? Who will rule Dorne now that there are no Martells? Oberyn's paramour? Seriously? Why would anyone follow her? Because Dornish are hot blooded and want war? What else is new? 

And I agree Sand Snakes are terible. In the books they are not prominent characters. Why put them front and center is illogical. Because Oberyn was so popular? You have prince Bashira as his brother. How awsome is that? And to think I'll have to see more of them.... and Bron. I do't have a lot of faith in that storyline....

[Arya442]

Oh I'm certain that their reasoning for making the Sand Snakes so prominent amounts to "hot warrior chicks, that's cool."  That's the level of "sophistication" that we're dealing with here.

[BalerionTheCat]

13 hours ago, Wall Flower said:

Even in the books, Doran's original plan was an alliance with Viserys and then Dany well before Aegon appeared on the scene. They could have just finished Season 5 with Doran announcing he had sent a dispatch to Mereen offering Dany full Dornish support to reclaim her throne and including a version of the Fire and Blood speech. Then they could have left Dorne out of the narrative until Dany actually arrives in Westeros. Honestly Dorne allying with Dany makes a lot more sense than Varys being her secret support after voting to assassinate her in Season 1.

And if they so much wanted to kill poor Trystane, they could have him fried by a dragon.

Without Aegon, Daenerys allying with Dorne make full sense. But what if her position is overwhelmingly superior when she will return? Is it D&D intent to cut thru, to a quick ending?

[Maid So Fair]

9 hours ago, lancerman said:

No it makes sense it's just not as interesting and altered characters from the book, because they can't keep similar motivations without Aegon.

If Doran is just getting revenge for Oberyn then it leaves the big question "why did he not do this for Elia and her children who were many degrees more important to Dorne". 

You don't have to break the fourth wall to understand the fundamentals of what's going on. It's not even slightly complicated. You just have to accept that Doran is not the same guy he is in the books. And Ellaria is a vengeful person. 

Its actually very cut and dry. 

 

 

No. Just no. It's basically a textbook idiot plot that requires every single character to be a complete moron or insane to work. We have a woman wreaking vengeance for her lover who got himself killed through stupidity by murdering his own family when his overwhelming motivation in life was to protect them. In the process she kills the rightful ruler and the heir to the throne she has no claim to and just expects people to follow her I guess. And of course, she waits until Doran receives a word of Myrcella's death before doing anything, with seemingly no plan B for a situation where he got the word when her and/or  Tyene weren't present/conveniently placed to immediately kill both him and Hotah simultaneously. There's Jaime, who is afraid for Trystane's life should Cersei get her hands on him who brings him to KL anyway, who trusts Doran but doesn't turn the ship around immediately to have the murderess of his daughter arrested there and then, and who has seemingly never heard of the concept of a political hostage despite spending half the series being one himself (not that Ellaria and Sand Snakes have, either). Doran, who sends his only son and heir to the viper's nest that is KL without a single guard, right after an attempt at Cersei's daughter's life, and who doesn't seem to find the absence of two SS even slightly suspicious after the shit they pulled last season. There's probably more. 

This goes well beyond a single character's characterisation being different from the books, or even a single character's motivation. It's every single one of them. As of the end of season 4 Dorne was more or less a blank slate, where most we knew about the characters was their names. They could have basically given them any motivation and personality they wanted and this is the best they could come up with. 

Doran doesn't really need motivation beyond wanting revenge for his siblings but not being suicidal for him declaring war on the Lannisters to work. We know nothing about Doran at this point. A throwaway line about Dornish armies being smashes on the Trident/not strong enough to challenge the Lannister/Baratheon/Tully/Stark/Arryn alliance single-handedly but finally being in a position to do so now that the Lannisters managed to piss off every single one of their allies would answer why he hasn't done it before. Even if you just ignore it, it's at worst a minor plothole rather than the huge crater we got instead. 

Bringing up Aegon (as well as the general argument about having to condense storylines and such) is breaking the fourth wall, because you're using a character that is not present in the story to explain away why it sucks. It was their decision to cut Aegon (one I agree with), to include Dorne nevertheless, to change characters in the way they did and to come up with their terrible original Dornish storyline. If it's a mess it's because it was written and produced that way.

8 hours ago, Mayura said:

I honestly agree with what you're saying. However, I understand as well that, if they decided to include Dorne (no matter how bad it was), they probably wanted to exploit that location and these characters a little bit, hence the fucked up s05 - s06 plot. 

I also think @lancerman has a point, cutting Aegon from the show has affected the dornish storyline as it appears that 

  Reveal hidden contents

he is a massive part of Doran's "plan" for all we know. And Arianne's storyline in Winds seems to be linked to Aegon's. 

 

But I definitely agree with the fact that they would have benefitted from casting Arianne, even if it meant leaving Ellaria out. But, I assume that, as they had already casted Ellaria to be with Oberyn in KL, they thought they'd just merge Ellaria and Arianne once they decided to explore Dorne afterall... Even a similar revenge plot coming from Arianne would have been more believable. 

 

 

Fair enough  I personally don't find the Dornish plot from the books particularly compelling, perhaps with the exception of he Fire and Blood speech, and I feel I should therefore be open to them making changes to make it more interesting, but I'm still amazed how they managed to make is so so much worse despite being given a free slate and being in a position to basically have any Dornish storyline they wanted. It's very frustrating as with a little bit of effort this could have been great TV. 

I mean, I totally get why they might want to swap Arianne for Ellaria as she's an established character but I don't think it's the character that's the problem here as I don't think any character could have pulled off the storyline written for Ellaria in S5 and S6 and make it work. 

[239JMFL34109]

14 hours ago, Wall Flower said:

Even in the books, Doran's original plan was an alliance with Viserys and then Dany well before Aegon appeared on the scene. They could have just finished Season 5 with Doran announcing he had sent a dispatch to Mereen offering Dany full Dornish support to reclaim her throne and including a version of the Fire and Blood speech. Then they could have left Dorne out of the narrative until Dany actually arrives in Westeros. Honestly Dorne allying with Dany makes a lot more sense than Varys being her secret support after voting to assassinate her in Season 1.

at thought this was going to be the end of season 4. just with varys showing up there to make the show viewers freak out. 

but since doran is death now i bet Ellaria give the fire and blood speech show version. 

[Meera of Tarth]

3 hours ago, Special Snowflake said:

Hi, firs time poster here....

I just wanted to say that tv show ruined Dorne for me. Of all the things they could cut or keep what they produced is just horrible. Why cast Sidding only to kill him in the first episode? I can understand that the creators like Indira Varma, yes she is a great actress, but Dorne story is not Ellaria's story. Yes, maybe Doran and his heir must die to speed things along and to somehow get Dorne support for Danny, but couldn't it be done a little better? Should we just have a willing suspension of disbelief to everything that happens? Who will rule Dorne now that there are no Martells? Oberyn's paramour? Seriously? Why would anyone follow her? Because Dornish are hot blooded and want war? What else is new? 

And I agree Sand Snakes are terible. In the books they are not prominent characters. Why put them front and center is illogical. Because Oberyn was so popular? You have prince Bashira as his brother. How awsome is that? And to think I'll have to see more of them.... and Bron. I do't have a lot of faith in that storyline....

Welcome to the forum!!

Yes, definitely. Dorne plot is unsensical. Good actors, horrible script. Even Doran's death is made out of logic: his guards are afraid of helping him. Maybe they are afraid of Ellaria......it's like a bad TV movie.

[239JMFL34109]

9 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

Welcome to the forum!!

Yes, definitely. Dorne plot is unsensical. Good actors, horrible script. Even Doran's death is made out of logic: his guards are afraid of helping him. Maybe they are afraid of Ellaria......it's like a bad TV movie.

I don't think there is any fear they want him dead too.

[Meera of Tarth]

3 minutes ago, 239JMFL34109 said:

I don't think there is any fear they want him dead too.

I was not so sure.....if you rewatch the episode, the looks of their faces....they seem to be afraid or, at most, neutral......

[239JMFL34109]

1 minute ago, Meera of Tarth said:

I was not so sure.....if you rewatch the episode, the looks of their faces....they seem to be afraid or, at most, neutral......

really? i thought it was really clear with all the dorne hates you talk after all the stuff last season about dorne loving the sand snakes,  "not while i am in charge" "how long do you think that will be" ,  and rest of the dorne wanting war. 

The thing i think is going to drive people crazy is ellaria getting the fire and blood speech. 

[Meera of Tarth]

17 minutes ago, 239JMFL34109 said:

really? i thought it was really clear with all the dorne hates you talk after all the stuff last season about dorne loving the sand snakes,  "not while i am in charge" "how long do you think that will be" ,  and rest of the dorne wanting war. 

The thing i think is going to drive people crazy is ellaria getting the fire and blood speech. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJAmc16ueGs

if you look close at minute 0.40 the guards seem to be scared of Ellaria. She probably threatened them. But their reaction is not very logical...why should they be scared of her? They are prepared for fighting, it's a bit hilarious that they are afraif of 4 women and not loyal to their prince.

maybe they are afraid of the Snakes because  they can teleport from one place to another......

Fire and blood? Probably. After all, ShowDoran was just a muppet puppet. Ellaria makes more sense now. What a pitty....