Are Jon's Vows Fulfilled?

[Winter's Cold]

9 hours ago, Kaibaman said:

Seeing how it was the high ranking officers of the Watch that killed him, maybe he would feel that since the Watch had essentially betrayed him, he no longer is bound to serve it, the same way the North didn't feel bound to the Iron Throne when Joffrey executed Ned.

I agree with this. I don't think Jon will care much about his vows following his resurrection. What purpose would staying with the Night's Watch serve when they've already murdered the two previous Lord Commanders. 

[The Broke Howard Hughes]

Make a note of this. Nobody but the fandom will expect Jon to stay with the Watch. This isn't a real argument. Oaths work both ways. Jon swears loyalty to The Watch and the Watch swears loyalty in return. Trying to kill him is clearly betrayal. In any other scenario nobody would think twice about this. But because it's Jon and people are invested in looking for a reason to make him an oath breaker all of a sudden every single word has to be filled for eternity. Never mind the second they tried to kill him they broke the oath first.

[Trigger Warning]

How does a small group of men stabbing him mean that it's fine to leave the watch? How does other people breaking their oaths justify him doing it? He's dedicated his life to fulfilling the purpose of the watch, the watch as an idea not a group of people. 

If he has to break his oath in order to fulfil the purpose of the Watch that's fine but if he just thought screw you guys I'm going home because some people in the same organisation betrayed him then he'd be betraying the spirit of his oath. 

If anything it sounds like you are more desperate to make him not an oath breaker than people are to have him be one and being an oath breaker isn't even inherently negative if it's done for the right reasons anyway so why's it so important that he isn't one.  

[The Broke Howard Hughes]

5 hours ago, Trigger Warning said:

How does a small group of men stabbing him mean that it's fine to leave the watch? How does other people breaking their oaths justify him doing it? He's dedicated his life to fulfilling the purpose of the watch, the watch as an idea not a group of people. 

If he has to break his oath in order to fulfil the purpose of the Watch that's fine but if he just thought screw you guys I'm going home because some people in the same organisation betrayed him then he'd be betraying the spirit of his oath. 

If anything it sounds like you are more desperate to make him not an oath breaker than people are to have him be one and being an oath breaker isn't even inherently negative if it's done for the right reasons anyway so why's it so important that he isn't one.  

The spirit of the oath? What's that? We've read the exact same thing and came away with opposite opinions. Just because YOU think it's oath breaking doesn't mean it is, and just because I don't doesn't mean I'm right. That's the whole point, the guy died, that lets him out of his oath. Period. Now you say he should go back because he's alive again, fine make that argument. But him dying and being released from his vows is clear cut. You disagree with that on a fundamental level, I accept your point, "for all the nights to come". I get that. But talking about the SPIRIT of the oath, doesn't mean anything. We don't agree about this so why would you expect Jon to simply agree with your interpretation of the oath? That's my whole point, there are a few reasons for him to leave, less for him to stay, the one line actually. But WE'RE the ones grasping at straws. Jon was betrayed by his brothers, which in my mind releases him. He died, which releases him. He comes back to life and will likely genuinely feel he's honored his commitment to the watch, which releases him. And not to mention from a common sense standpoint he may feel like getting the hell out of dodge is the smart move. If you think he should stay, fine, but let's not pretend that's the only clear course of action because of some oath he may interpret differently than you. You feel a certain way, I feel a certain way, and Jon will likely feel another way. Which is the whole point. There is no right answer, our feelings don't make either of us right. If Jon was your son, or brother, or best friend, would you seriously tell him he's gotta stay? I doubt it.

[Schwarze Sonne]

Well, Jon's vows would be fullfilled once he died since his watch has ended. Don't you think you're being awfully strict with Jon Snow when it comes to honor and duty compared to so many characters who didn't follow their vows and don't seem to care shit despite acting so honorable (every good knights, every lords who don't give a shit about their folks).

The vows about not interfering with the kingdom is total BS when the king can just dispose the lord commander as he/she pleases (the Lannisters sending Janos Slynt there, Cersei planned to send Osmund to assassinate Jon, etc.) and the king and lords don't aid them to fight the wildlings.

Coldhand is sort of dead, probably not a Night Watcher anymore, hence he can't pass through the Black Gate. There's no specific reason for Coldhand to remain a blackbrother to execute the deserters from Mormont's mutiny though.

[lancerman]

"It shall not end until my death"

He died. Plain and simple.

[The Twinslayer]

On May 5, 2016 at 11:12 PM, Celebriel82 said:

I think it mainly depends on if you are someone who believes in the letter of the law or the spirit of the law. 

Letter of the law - Jon died, his watch has ended.

Spirit of the law - Jon isn't dead anymore, watch is still going.

Also Jon wouldn't be stealing Bran or Rickon's inheritance, if you remember, Robb legitimatized Jon and made him his heir before the Red Wedding.

How can Jon have an inheritance if he died?  Ned stopped being Lord of Winterfell the moment he died.  Robert stopped being King on the Iron Throne the moment he died.  If Jon "died" then he lost his right to inherit Winterfell (or the Iron Throne, for that matter).

Jon is in a Catch-22.  He can't be dead for purposes of the NW vows but alive for purposes of inheritance.  Either he is in the NW and forbidden to own lands or wear crowns; or he is dead and has no claim to any inheritance.  

[lancerman]

29 minutes ago, The Twinslayer said:

How can Jon have an inheritance if he died?  Ned stopped being Lord of Winterfell the moment he died.  Robert stopped being King on the Iron Throne the moment he died.  If Jon "died" then he lost his right to inherit Winterfell (or the Iron Throne, for that matter).

Jon is in a Catch-22.  He can't be dead for purposes of the NW vows but alive for purposes of inheritance.  Either he is in the NW and forbidden to own lands or wear crowns; or he is dead and has no claim to any inheritance.  

Not really...

The Night's Watch actual verbal oath says the Watch Ends when you die. An inheritance is passed down to any living heirs. Having died once has no bearing on ones ability to claim an inheritance. It's not a mutually exclusive scenario.

If Ned or Robert came back to life for some reason within the same timespan as Jon, there is almost no doubt that Robb and Joffrey would be forced to step down. Losing a title has more to do with not being around to claim it. Jon swore an oath that explicitly mentions death as the endpoint.

[Leonardo]

On 5/6/2016 at 3:56 AM, Slowpoke Martin said:

First of all, there are no instances of a Nights Watch member dying then coming back to life, so the people saying that Jon would still be bound to his oath are talking out of their asses.

The vow is very clear cut that his oath dies with him, stop trying to twist words to fit your opinions.

Jon deciding to stay with the NW even though hes not bound to it, is another story all together.

Except, you know, Coldhands. Who is still clearly following his oath as best as possible.

 

And it REALLY doesn't count until he is given the "his watch is ended"

[Ours is the Brewery]

He died and thus fulfilled his vows. I believe a 999th LC will take his place when he leaves to handle personal business and then will return to the Night's Watch after the 999th LC dies. He'll pull a Grover Cleveland and become the 1,000th LC and fight the Others. 

Seems a bit obvious, I know, but I'd like it.

[Blade of Sunlight]

First, even if Jon's resurrection is a miracle, getting out of his vows is a technicality, it goes against the spirit of the law, and raises the question when is "dead" dead enough to release you from your vows, if he is resurrected right after the stabbing would it count? I he lives on as ghost (thus his spirit never being dead) does that count? As someone said, if he drowns and is brought back in drowned god fashion is it valid? In short if you want to read the letter of the law then you have to define things like death, and in a world with magic that may not be so simple. Any way, Jon should have doubts and serious guild over abandoning the NW because he "died" and "his watch has ended".

Second, Jon already broke his vows, he did so consciously, the first time with Ygritte (again a technicality since they were not husband and wife) and then when he decided to march south on Winterfell, when he did so fully conscious that this would be breaking his vows, so technically he already broke his vows.

Third, inheritance, he is a legitimized bastard, so what he is entitled to is open for discussion, and his place in the succession line is likely after his brothers and perhaps after his sisters. In any case, if we look at the spirit of the edict, it was done not because Robb thought Jon would make a good king and should be his heir but becase at that time Robb thought he only had one sister left and she was in Lannister hands. This is no longer the case, and Jon is likely to find out soon. Again, we must look at what Jon will think of this, even if there is a paper making him a Stark, accepting that paper and claiming Winterfell while any of his brothers/sisters are alive should still be "stealing" their inheritance where Jon is concerned, and given the inner discussions he had of not belonging there it would cheapen the whole story if he said "Never mind, I want me some Winterfell".

[norwaywolf123]

8 hours ago, lancerman said:

"It shall not end until my death"

He died. Plain and simple.

(1. Night gathers, and now my watch begins.)(2. It shall not end untill my death.)(3. I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children.)(4. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory.)(5. I shall live and die at my post.)(6. I am the sword in the darkness.)(7. I am the watcher on the walls.)(8. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men.)(9. I pledge my life and honor to the Night's Watch, for this night and all the nights to come.)

 

2. "It shall not end untill my death"

Only in death, the watch will be over, aslong as you live in some form or another, the oath will stand.

3. "I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children"

Even if he leaves he will never be allowed to be a husband, lord or father. He can but that would be oathbreaking.

9. "I pledge my llife and honor to the Night's Watch, for this night and all the nights to come"

Once you take the oath is forever, you can never leave no matter what! Aemon stayed at his post while his family was getting whacked. The lst Hoara was a member while is family got roasted, he could have deserted and claimed the iron isles, but did't!

[lancerman]

1 hour ago, norwaywolf123 said:

(1. Night gathers, and now my watch begins.)(2. It shall not end untill my death.)(3. I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children.)(4. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory.)(5. I shall live and die at my post.)(6. I am the sword in the darkness.)(7. I am the watcher on the walls.)(8. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men.)(9. I pledge my life and honor to the Night's Watch, for this night and all the nights to come.)

 

2. "It shall not end untill my death"

Only in death, the watch will be over, aslong as you live in some form or another, the oath will stand.

3. "I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children"

Even if he leaves he will never be allowed to be a husband, lord or father. He can but that would be oathbreaking.

9. "I pledge my llife and honor to the Night's Watch, for this night and all the nights to come"

Once you take the oath is forever, you can never leave no matter what! Aemon stayed at his post while his family was getting whacked. The lst Hoara was a member while is family got roasted, he could have deserted and claimed the iron isles, but did't!

See that's just your interpretation. The literal words are "shall not end until my death". That clearly means the watch ends upon death. Says nothing about dying and coming back and the oath being reapplied. It's the actual words in the oath.

He did pledge his life. He lived and died as a man of the Night's Watch. He just happens to have been reborn.

Aemon didn't die and relieve himself of his duty. So that's a non factor. Just as Jon didn't abandon his post when he believed Ned/Catelyn/Robb/Bran/Rickon were killed and he was offered to have his oath waved by a King. We are specifically mentioning a rare scenario where a death occurred that by the creed of the organization ends the oath.

I mean it's kind of obvious that there is one phrase that indicates the release of your vows in the Night's Watch, and it is invoked everytime someone dies "now his watch has ended". Then the writer specifically has that one provision happen to the one main character who took the oath.

[Rusty Winchester]

I always felt that the funeral rights of the nights watch, the whole 'and now his watch is ended.' is the symbolic ending of the oath.  The same way you become a man of the nights watch when you say the words, and are released of them in that instant at your funeral.  I guess I've always pictured Jon getting rezzed post funeral for symbolic purposes.

On a side note, does anyone else read debates like this, and the very passionate arguments on both sides and just get worried that people have made the debate a little too black and white in their own minds? I know the forums wouldn't be good for much if we didn't have things to disagree about, I just can't help but worry that people will get themselves so invested in a specific argument like this one, that the half of them that end up being in the 'incorrect' camp will then be mad when the book actually releases.  I think that's why I can't surf these forums every day, I get legitimately concerned about the future enjoyment by other people I don't know, of a book that I know I will myself enjoy.  Is that I sign I might be overly invested in this series?

[Drogo_1]

Jon will now start his campaign to take over as king of westeros so that he can consolidate as much man power as possible to go against the others!

[Zulaica]

I think what I'm most concerned about is if Jon leaves the Night's Watch then will we no longer read about what transpires at the wall. I always imagined that Jon would be there to witness the dead attacking the wall, if that happens in the next book. If he leaves the Night's Watch, where will he go? Perhaps continue with his plans to march south with the wildlings against the Boltons. Stannis will definitely welcome his arrival if Stannis and his forces still stand.

[Make Shadowbabies Not War]

Wasn't Jon planning on marching an army to Winterfell? That is, I'm pretty sure, a direct violation of the whole 'shield that guards the realms of men' aspect of the vow. I never got the argument about whether or not Jon will break his vows, when he already done so. In fact, he was, by the end of ADWD, actively working against the vows and the Watch's principles..

 

The real debate, is whether he is correct to do so. After all, his vows have so far been nothing but a hindrance in Jon's attempt to do what needs to be done. Personally, he should break them. He will be hated for it, and may go down in history as the villain, but he will finally be able to do what he needs to without being held back by a bunch of rules created 8,000 years ago.

[Darth Sidious]

On 5/4/2016 at 1:59 PM, Chris Mormont said:

If Jon is resurrected by Melisandre like Beric Dondarrion then are his vows with the Nights Watch fulfilled?  Can he leave without losing honor or being a deserter?

 

Jon already lost his honor.  He broke night watch rules and started a war with the Boltons.  He is already guilty of desertion when Sam had to drag his butt back to the wall.  He broke the law when he set Mance Rayder free instead of executing him.  To make matters worse, he sent Mance to Winterfell to steal Arya, and to commit murder if need be.  Jon already lost what little honor he had left.  

[The Broke Howard Hughes]

On Tuesday, May 10, 2016 at 4:42 AM, norwaywolf123 said:

(1. Night gathers, and now my watch begins.)(2. It shall not end untill my death.)(3. I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children.)(4. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory.)(5. I shall live and die at my post.)(6. I am the sword in the darkness.)(7. I am the watcher on the walls.)(8. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men.)(9. I pledge my life and honor to the Night's Watch, for this night and all the nights to come.)

 

2. "It shall not end untill my death"

Only in death, the watch will be over, aslong as you live in some form or another, the oath will stand.

3. "I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children"

Even if he leaves he will never be allowed to be a husband, lord or father. He can but that would be oathbreaking.

9. "I pledge my llife and honor to the Night's Watch, for this night and all the nights to come"

Once you take the oath is forever, you can never leave no matter what! Aemon stayed at his post while his family was getting whacked. The lst Hoara was a member while is family got roasted, he could have deserted and claimed the iron isles, but did't!

2. Don't mean to butt in, but that's CLEARLY NOT spelled out. It's simply your interpretation. You can't state it as fact. You very well may be right, but you can't simply assume.

[Coren82]

On 4/5/2016 at 8:54 PM, Drogo_1 said:

He is definitely not staying in the NW. Considering the title of the next episode is "oathbreaker" I am assuming there are some who will not be ok with this. I also seem to remember Bloodraven was once a man of the NW and he was able to leave, so maybe it won't be universally disliked.

Ehi, I don't care a fuck about the title of next episode of that shitty show.

I am reading the novels for 15 years, and I am sick of people like you, spoilering all over the Internet.

Moreover, it is against the forum rules, so next time I will signal you to moderators.

Best regards.