The monkeys growing?

[Crixus]

Agreed. He spent so much time laying down hints and clues, everything building up beautifully to something fascinating and complex and satisfying, only to be revealed in a 2 min scene in the show.... answers he steadfastly avoided giving to reporters and fans for decades. As you say, it was so important to him (and us).  

It's an odd feeling, to be given rather pedestrian answers to questions you've mulled over and discussed for years. Underwhelming. And as I said, for me it's the details, the reasons and choices and all that juicy stuff that leads to big events. The show has a tendency to just shove such events in our faces abruptly. 

Oh well. 

[Daemon I Blackfyre]

Just now, God-Emperor of Yi Ti said:

this. 

It pretty much screams "2 years to publishing." 

And 2 more books to go after that.

Well, maybe not two years, but yeah... There's always the risk.
I'd like to think that six month from now we'll read "the Son of Kong is dead" on Not a Blog, but I'm guessing that's wishful thinking.
At this point, I'd be happy if he were to finish the damn book even by 2018.

And no, I don't believe George will actually try to write yet another book after A Dream of Spring.
It's pretty obvious by now that he's getting sick with the series and would rather write down novellas about Dunk and Egg.
He'll probably try to wrap most things up in tWoW to make A Dream of Spring faster to work on.
 

Btw, I dread to think how much we'll have to wait for ADoS, if the book will ever be finished at all.

 

[God-Emperor of Yi Ti]

12 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

I think that when he gave us the update in January, he had in the low hundreds of pages done. He said "hundreds of pages." I think that meant less than 500. So put it at 400 to be generous. (Book pages, not manuscript pages, which seems to be something different).

He said he had "dozens of chapters" done. To me that doesn't sound like more than 50. It probably means like 36-48 or thereabouts, else he would have said scores, or half a hundred or something along those lines.

So basically, I think he is about halfway with Winds. What boggles the mind is that he still thought he could have it done in time for April.

as someone on another thread said, he's a dreamer and an idealist.....

[God-Emperor of Yi Ti]

7 minutes ago, Daemon I Blackfyre said:

Well, maybe not two years, but yeah... There's always the risk.
I'd like to think that six month from now we'll read "the Son of Kong is dead" on Not a Blog, but I'm guessing that's wishful thinking.
At this point, I'd be happy if he were to finish the damn book even by 2018.

And no, I don't believe George will actually try to write yet another book after A Dream of Spring.
It's pretty obvious by now that he's getting sick with the series and would rather write down novellas about Dunk and Egg.
He'll probably try to wrap most things up in tWoW to make A Dream of Spring faster to work on.
 

Btw, I dread to think how much we'll have to wait for ADoS, if the book will ever be finished at all.

 

anything after ADoS will be only be as a novelisation of the TV show i would reckon. Hell, large sections of ADoS will probably be novelisation if Season 6 finishes  as i expect...

[Daemon I Blackfyre]

24 minutes ago, God-Emperor of Yi Ti said:

anything after ADoS will be only be as a novelisation of the TV show i would reckon. Hell, large sections of ADoS will probably be novelisation if Season 6 finishes  as i expect...

I still don't think he would write an eight book. The story is pretty close to its end, tWoW will be over 1000 pages long, so will aDoS. He really does not need more than 3000 pages to end the series.
 

[God-Emperor of Yi Ti]

51 minutes ago, Daemon I Blackfyre said:

I still don't think he would write an eight book. The story is pretty close to its end, tWoW will be over 1000 pages long, so will aDoS. He really does not need more than 3000 pages to end the series.
 

The GRRM of Books 1 to 3? No question.........

[Daemon I Blackfyre]

1 minute ago, God-Emperor of Yi Ti said:

The GRRM of Books 1 to 3? No question.........

We're at book five now. The next one is gonna be the sixth. I just can't picture him needing eight books at this point. Also I REALLY can't picture him wanting to write another one after aDoS. Hell, I don't think he'll be that happy to write aDoS to begin with, after tWoW took this long!

People usually question the fact that he'll be able to live long enough to finish the seventh book, while I on the other hand am way more concerned with him losing interest in ending the story. Now more than ever, since the show is basically spoiling most of the plotines he took years to build. What if George wakes up one day and just says to himself "All right, screw it"? That's a fearful thought right there.

So, keeping in mind that, I just can't see how after publishing tWoW and aDoS he could STILL have the will to write another one.

Imho, it's just very unlikely, and I really hope he doesn't decide to go down that road. It would hurt us all and him before everyone else.

 

[JGP]

1 hour ago, Daemon I Blackfyre said:

I still don't think he would write an eight book. The story is pretty close to its end, tWoW will be over 1000 pages long, so will aDoS. He really does not need more than 3000 pages to end the series.
 

 

Well, theoretically he could end it all in the next book but that isn't going to provide a net positive for anyone, right.

Martin is a ...I want to say perfectionist and maybe he's that as well [most likely]... but I'd argue more strongly toward completionist being his paramount trait as a writer. There's just way too much that would be left hanging, and Martin wouldn't ignore that, if only because he hasn't ignored any of it, like ever.

Even stuff from his Dunk and Egg stories. For example: Oh hey now, wouldn't it be resonant if the Three Eyed Crow was Bloodraven... then he's off down the rabbit hole chasing internal consistency, working forward, doubling back and working forward once again, creating, integrating and reinterpreting. But now not just within ASoIaF, he's tripping on consistency between that and his Dunk and Egg novellas now too. I'm not faulting him per se. I mean, it's this level of immersion in his own world that has given us the richly layered story that most of us love and enjoy [myself included, excepting AFfC and ADwD] but to this type of individual, to think that this type of writer will suddenly turn about and go contrary to nature is rather short sighted, in my opinion. 

So, he's got a long, long way to go.

Dany still needs to deal with the Dothraki and resolve the Meereenese Knot. Tyrion needs to meet up with Dany or be left behind. One or the other or both will need to deal with Euron, and they all need to get over to Westeros. Arya needs to get back as well, either independently or with Dany's host somehow. Perhaps Dany will take note from Stannis' actions and realize the real story is in the north and sail straight to the Wall, but most likely she won't [or can't] so now we have to deal with the revisioning of all the conflicts in mid and southern Westeros [say below the Neck, and there's tonnes] etc etc. 

If one wants it to make sense, and Martin at least will, that's a heap of writing right there. Easily a book on it's own.

Add to that Jamie and Brienne, Stoneheart, the Freys and the Riverlands, Littlefinger and the Vale etc etc ad nauseum, and, lest we forget, everything happening in the north... It won't work, after all, if say while Dany solidifies the south Jon et all whip the north into shape, and they then meet somewhere in the Riverlands or the Neck with Howland [to draw in the Crannogmen] which would then leave us with a gargantuan travelogue to culminate with a single battle with the Others and la, the story is over? Nah.  

I just can't imagine Martin can resolve all these storylines unless he forces it. It has to be fluid, it has to be consistent. That's just how he is, love it or hate it. 

There's just no way he could wrap all this up in two books unless he circumvents a lot. In my opinion.

[Daemon I Blackfyre]

8 minutes ago, JEORDHl said:

 

Well...

You make good points.
But as I said, George is obviously tired. He's not writing as fast as he used to, nor I think he would have the will to write book eight after a journey that long. And it has been a long journey, one that if it felt long for us, we can only imagine how long it was for him. And there's still a lot of road to walk on.

So yeah, I just don't see how he would stand writing another one after aDoS.

Besides, most of the plotlines just need to be wrapped up. The only one that could prove difficult is the Mereenese Knot.
I can't picture the story not even being close to its end by the last chapter of tWoW.

Also you may say, he has too much material to fit in the two remaining books, but let's put it on another perspective: does he have enough material to justify another thousand page long book after aDoS? I really don't think so. Jeez, I don't even want to think so.

[JGP]

17 minutes ago, Daemon I Blackfyre said:

Also you may say, he has too much material to fit in the two remaining books, but let's put it on another perspective: does he have enough material to justify another thousand page long book after aDoS? I really don't think so. Jeez, I don't even want to think so.

I don't want to think otherwise either, but there's wishful thinking and then there's reality. I mean, I was just touching upon plotting in the above, and Martin doesn't write plot in-- he writes characters outward to plot.

Wait, that's just not in character for Cersei. She wouldn't bend the knee to Dany much less Aegon, so unless either summarily executed her [which wouldn't resolve her plot in any satisfying way] she's going to meddle and gather power and become a pain in the ass because that's what she is. The Lannisters as a whole need resolution, not just Cersei, so between now and the end we'll have dozens and dozens of Cersei, Tyrion and Jaime chapters just to deal their ending, if you will, whatever that may be-- and to manage with all the subsequent ripples of how their actions effected upon those people and factions surrounding them, and so on and so forth... And that's just the Lions.

It's a hell of a hole to be in, if he's as tired as you say. And if that wasn't daunting enough, with the show ruining some of his major reveals [some, not all] he has that to contend with too. 

Success and all, I don't envy Martin one little bit.

 

[Daemon I Blackfyre]

2 minutes ago, JEORDHl said:

It's a hell of a hole to be in, if he's as tired as you say. And if that wasn't daunting enough, with the show ruining some of his major reveals [some not all] he has that to contend with too. 

Success and all, I don't even Martin one little bit.

 

I don't know.. Many readers think that some of theories or the theorized plotlines are actually what we're going to get.
You made the example of Cersei, but what if Cersei gets killed just before Aegon/Dany/Whoever knocks on KL's door? What if she burns the city with wildfire right before the very eyes of the invaders? What if Tyrion enters the red keep using the secret passages and choke his sister before the new queen/king sits the IT? Those are just some example of how George could speed thing up a bit, and of course with his talent it could still be high quality writing. After all, if there's one thing he should've learned from aDwD is that dragging things too much can damage his work.

If you meant "envy" (lol) I kinda agree.
 

[YouKnowNothingJonSnow]

7 hours ago, Crixus said:

Agreed. He spent so much time laying down hints and clues, everything building up beautifully to something fascinating and complex and satisfying, only to be revealed in a 2 min scene in the show.... answers he steadfastly avoided giving to reporters and fans for decades. As you say, it was so important to him (and us).  

It's an odd feeling, to be given rather pedestrian answers to questions you've mulled over and discussed for years. Underwhelming. And as I said, for me it's the details, the reasons and choices and all that juicy stuff that leads to big events. The show has a tendency to just shove such events in our faces abruptly. 

Oh well. 

This is the reason I stopped watching the show. It kind of sucked the last two year anyway, and it will always be there on DVD. May have to stop visiting the boards for the same reason. Book boards now have to be considerate of spoilers for book people who don't watch the show, since the show is now in the lead.

 

[God-Emperor of Yi Ti]

16 hours ago, JEORDHl said:

 

Well, theoretically he could end it all in the next book but that isn't going to provide a net positive for anyone, right.

SNIP

 

There's just no way he could wrap all this up in two books unless he circumvents a lot. In my opinion.

My thoughts exactly....

[sifth]

On May 24, 2016 at 7:28 AM, God-Emperor of Yi Ti said:

as someone on another thread said, he's a dreamer and an idealist.....

Not a hard worker though apperently.

[Howland Reed]

Not a hard worker?  Do you realize how hard it would be to write these last books, he has created such a massive world with so many things he needs to explain in a way that makes sense.  He has to piece these select POVs to tell his story, without forcing it down.  Not to mention the guy is absolutely brilliant.  This shit doesn't happen easily.  I will say he is a slow typist, he has said that himself.  Not a hard worker though, that is absolute madness to assume, you don't get this successful without hard work.

[Johnimus]

On 5/11/2016 at 5:38 PM, Jack Bauer 24 said:

Zzzzzzz. He's boring me now. Release the book, or a NEW chapter. Not one you've read at cons before George. 

I don't want any new chapters. I want to read the whole damn thing. New chapters tell you the sum total of nothing, tbh.

[Johnimus]

Let's face it - TWOW will be great, but we'll be left hanging. Probably for a decade. 

I don't worry about TWOW. But I really think he may never finish ADOS.

[Werthead]

All "the monkey is growing" means that the book is getting bigger and getting longer as he writes more material for it. Reading anything more than that into the situation is in the eye of the beholder, as it's nothing GRRM has said.

On 15/05/2016 at 9:25 PM, Ser Biscuit said:

He hasn't written an ep on the show since early season 4, shows no interest in ever writing for it again.

George has said, several times, that he will resume writing an episode per season after TWoW is completed, as long as at that point it doesn't negatively effect the writing for ADoS.

Quote

Not going to disagree. I surmised that if he submitted soon that Christmas would sound about right, but I have no idea how long Bantam will get the book out. I know for academia it can take about a year, but I presume for this sort of stuff Bantam will push it out asap. If Winds is published at the hinted 1500 pages (I suppose it is possible) and is fantastic (i.e. Storm), I can swallow the pill a little easier. If it is 500-600 pages, and similar to Feast.....he may not quit, but I may walk away from the series.. and just accept the tv series' conclusion. 

The publishers will release the book 3 months after final turn-in, like they did for ADWD and ASoS.

For the page count, 1500 manuscript pages is certainly doable, as ASoS and ADWD were both around 1520 MS pages in length.

Quote

I'm paraphrasing, but at one point Martin responded to a query about why he dropped the gap with, "Well, there's this character that shows up in Dance whose story I felt had to be told," hence the unintended Feast and [new] Dance respectively. I'm still a little confused as to who this character he referenced was. Aegon perhaps, who knows. 

It was a combination of feeling it was implausible that Brienne would spend 5 years searching for Arya and Sansa without finding anything, the fact that Dorne would take action immediately rather than wait 5 years after Oberyn's death, and the implausibility that, having established the Others as an imminent threat, that they would then take another 5 years before attacking the Wall. George even spoke of writing a scene that was - effectively - Jon saying, "Well, it sure felt like the Others were an immediate problem but hey, I guess they all went to Reno".

The 5-year-gap was also introduced during the writing of ASoS. It didn't exist before then, the plan at that point was just to roll straight onwards. So the problem wasn't that the 5-year-gap was in the original plan, it was that it wasn't, then he put it in and wrote the ending of ASoS with that in mind and then had to course-correct afterwards.

Quote

The 5 year gap was always a bad idea,

Narrative gaps are always tricky to pull off, and they don't always work well. I remember what happened in BSG, when they had a 16-month gap between Seasons 2 and 3 and it pretty much killed the show. Characters behaved wildly inconsistently and when challenged the writers just said, "Oh, it was stuff they went through during the gap" and used to justify a lot of illogical plot decisions and lazy characterisation. I don't think George would have done that, but that option of saying, "Oh, Sansa is now badass because of the gap," would always have been there.

Quote

I think that when he gave us the update in January, he had in the low hundreds of pages done. He said "hundreds of pages." I think that meant less than 500. So put it at 400 to be generous. (Book pages, not manuscript pages, which seems to be something different).

He said he had "dozens of chapters" done. To me that doesn't sound like more than 50. It probably means like 36-48 or thereabouts, else he would have said scores, or half a hundred or something along those lines.

So basically, I think he is about halfway with Winds. What boggles the mind is that he still thought he could have it done in time for April.

No, he meant manuscript pages. He always refers to MS pages during the writing process, never finished and formatted ones because he has zero idea of what they're going to be. And "hundreds" means probably something less than a thousand finalised pages. Out of a 1500 page book that may or may not be cause for concern, as George can "finalise" pages pretty damn quickly at the end of the writing process.

The series average for chapters per books is about 70, so if he did have 50 chapters "done", that means he'd be pretty close to finishing. And when he says a chapter is done, he means it's completed, edited and - in some cases - delivered to his editor. He always has more material after that in drafts, partials and fragments.

[sifth]

2 hours ago, Werthead said:

All "the monkey is growing" means that the book is getting bigger and getting longer as he writes more material for it. Reading anything more than that into the situation is in the eye of the beholder, as it's nothing GRRM has said.

George has said, several times, that he will resume writing an episode per season after TWoW is completed, as long as at that point it doesn't negatively effect the writing for ADoS.

The publishers will release the book 3 months after final turn-in, like they did for ADWD and ASoS.

For the page count, 1500 manuscript pages is certainly doable, as ASoS and ADWD were both around 1520 MS pages in length.

It was a combination of feeling it was implausible that Brienne would spend 5 years searching for Arya and Sansa without finding anything, the fact that Dorne would take action immediately rather than wait 5 years after Oberyn's death, and the implausibility that, having established the Others as an imminent threat, that they would then take another 5 years before attacking the Wall. George even spoke of writing a scene that was - effectively - Jon saying, "Well, it sure felt like the Others were an immediate problem but hey, I guess they all went to Reno".

The 5-year-gap was also introduced during the writing of ASoS. It didn't exist before then, the plan at that point was just to roll straight onwards. So the problem wasn't that the 5-year-gap was in the original plan, it was that it wasn't, then he put it in and wrote the ending of ASoS with that in mind and then had to course-correct afterwards.

Narrative gaps are always tricky to pull off, and they don't always work well. I remember what happened in BSG, when they had a 16-month gap between Seasons 2 and 3 and it pretty much killed the show. 

 

So in short all we really learned from the January annocucment is he's not finished. Same with the May annocucment. We already knew he had hundreds of pages done back in 2012. His comment about being "months" away is also unreliable, as he said as much in his post. 

 

For the record I loved the time skip in BSG. Season 3 was possibly my favorite season on the show.

 

[JGP]

I doubt I'll change my mind on the gap, nor Martin's ability to pull it off all seamless smooth.

Anyway, ship has long since sailed. Moving on.

I have to say, that seeing people here disparage Martin on how hard he works or how he chooses to divide his time and by extension-- how to he decides to live his life, is extremely unfair. Here's a guy, without exaggeration, whose creativity is responsible for a phenomenon, and he's getting shade thrown on him by fans in a manner that truly exemplifies Gaiman's coinage of 'GRRM isn't your Bitch.'

I mean, I met the guy. It was at a con, but before it had really started. So there he is, out of the regular hotel traffic, much less con-goer, and he'd sat to read a paper. Probably wanted some alone time before things got going, and I just plunked down beside him and started up a conversation. I knew it was invasive so I didn't talk to him for long, but I walked away from it with an impression that wasn't like that of a few successful authors I've met, those exuding the somewhat self important -I value my time- type airs.

He was a down to earth guy not even given to humble brags, that genuinely seemed to love telling stories-- and he got more than a few laughs out of me. 

Respect here wouldn't be undue, people.