The monkeys growing?

[Lady Kissed By Fire]

1 hour ago, JEORDHl said:

I doubt I'll change my mind on the gap, nor Martin's ability to pull it off all seamless smooth.

Anyway, ship has long since sailed. Moving on.

I have to say, that seeing people here disparage Martin on how hard he works or how he chooses to divide his time and by extension-- how to he decides to live his life, is extremely unfair. Here's a guy, without exaggeration, whose creativity is responsible for a phenomenon, and he's getting shade thrown on him by fans in a manner that truly exemplifies Gaiman's coinage of 'GRRM isn't your Bitch.'

I mean, I met the guy. It was at a con, but before it had really started. So there he is, out of the regular hotel traffic, much less con-goer, and he'd sat to read a paper. Probably wanted some alone time before things got going, and I just plunked down beside him and started up a conversation. I knew it was invasive so I didn't talk to him for long, but I walked away from it with an impression that wasn't like that of a few successful authors I've met, those exuding the somewhat self important -I value my time- type airs.

He was a down to earth guy not even given to humble brags, that genuinely seemed to love telling stories-- and he got more than a few laughs out of me. 

Respect here wouldn't be undue, people.  

Thank you!!!!

I feel like so many people do not understand how hard it can be to actually sit down and write. It is a labor of love, and he is only human.

He has created this wonderful, enriched world. We all want to know what comes next. As a amateur writer, I know how hard it can be to sit down in front of the computer and type it out... sometimes the words or the story just don't come to you when you will them to, even if you know what you want for the end game.

Am I sick of waiting for WoW? Of course! But I'll continue waiting, and not put down and talk trash about my favorite author, just because he isn't writing at the pace everyone wants.

It will come when it comes, and it will be fantastic. I would rather have a novel of excellent quality than one that he rushed just to get out "on time". The man has a life outside of ASOIAF that he is allowed to enjoy. 

[JonisHenryTudor]

9 hours ago, Lady Kissed By Fire said:

 

It will come when it comes, and it will be fantastic. I would rather have a novel of excellent quality than one that he rushed just to get out "on time". The man has a life outside of ASOIAF that he is allowed to enjoy. 

Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

 

 

BUT. GoT was published in 1996, CoK 1999, and SoS 2000. These books are also widely praised as the best in the series. Feast and Dance (now Winds) are the only books to suffer from large gaps between books. Feast (2005), Dance (2011), Winds (TBA). 

I personally enjoyed Dance, but Feast was utter trash. There were moments, but in general I could care less if I ever read the book. A lot of people feel that way. The point is: longer waits do not equate to better books. I can read the first three over and over and over. All three were published rapidly. Yet Feast arrived 5 years later, and it was a huge disappointment after waiting for 5 years. With Dance, I was appeased yet utterly annoyed at the numerous cliffhangers given that the wait for Winds would most likely be extensive...and......

 

So let's stop making excuses for him. I will wait, and like everyone else I want a good book. But let's stop making excuses, and stop pretending that longer means better.  

[Daemon I Blackfyre]

10 hours ago, sifth said:

Not a hard worker though apperently.

I wouldn't say that, but he does take more time than it is necessary for writing down these books.
And If anyone thinks differently, just keep in mind it took him less than 2 years to finish aSoS.

Like I said, I think it's because he got tired...

 

8 hours ago, Werthead said:

George has said, several times, that he will resume writing an episode per season after TWoW is completed, as long as at that point it doesn't negatively effect the writing for ADoS.

Kinda hard to do, when the show is over. D&D are pushing for just another longer season after season 6. He may write the finale, if he hurries with the damn book.

 

6 hours ago, sifth said:

 

So in short all we really learned from the January annocucment is he's not finished. Same with the May annocucment. We already knew he had hundreds of pages done back in 2012. His comment about being "months" away is also unreliable, as he said as much in his post.

This.

3 hours ago, JEORDHl said:

Respect here wouldn't be undue, people.  

How come everytime a reader gets a little bit frustrated with the wait and question George's writing speed, people tend to assume they're automatically showing him no respect?
If the guy managed to get someone hooked on that level with his work, I hardly think that means they don't respect the author.

[JGP]

1 hour ago, Daemon I Blackfyre said:

How come everytime a reader gets a little bit frustrated with the wait and question George's writing speed, people tend to assume they're automatically showing him no respect?
If the guy managed to get someone hooked on that level with his work, I hardly think that means they don't respect the author.

Reflecting on your reaction, I'd conclude that respect probably means different things to you and I. 

That said, my comment was directed toward one-offs like the first you quoted, 'Not a hard worker though, apparently' [and yes, I corrected the spelling] But hey, if you can't tell the difference between voicing frustration with the wait and a thinly veiled insult, nothing I say here is going to make a dent anyway.

 

[sifth]

16 minutes ago, JEORDHl said:

Reflecting on your reaction, I'd conclude that respect probably means different things to you and I. 

That said, my comment was directed toward one-offs like the first you quoted, 'Not a hard worker though, apparently' [and yes, I corrected the spelling] But hey, if you can't tell the difference between voicing frustration with the wait and a thinly veiled insult, nothing I say here is going to make a dent anyway.

 

It's called a joke yoyo. I do find it funny how one small joke about someone being lazy leads to a paragraph about respect. Don't take everything said online so serious. 

[JGP]

Ah, that's what the ellipses meant. Denoting humor. 

But then you go on, and now you're making me question your reading comprehension... Don't make me do that. You wouldn't like me when I do that.

But hey, that's a joke, see. [half smile]

[Cas Stark]

How is he possibly going to finish the series in 7 books, when based on his own comments Dany spends 'mulitple' chapters with the Dothraki, doesn't meet Tyrion until near the end of the book and for all anyone knows, doesn't make it to Westeros until the last chapter or maybe not even then?  Maybe he's lost his motivation because he did kill off too many of his best characters and maybe he can't finish the story for the same reason.  Summer, ahem, cough, cough.  I know I'm less interested in Winds after the show's last episode.

[sifth]

1 hour ago, JEORDHl said:

Ah, that's what the ellipses meant. Denoting humor. 

But then you go on, and now you're making me question your reading comprehension... Don't make me do that. You wouldn't like me when I do that.

But hey, that's a joke, see. [half smile]

I have no idea what you mean by this comment. I find you to be a very confusing person. 

[JonisHenryTudor]

6 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

How is he possibly going to finish the series in 7 books, when based on his own comments Dany spends 'mulitple' chapters with the Dothraki, doesn't meet Tyrion until near the end of the book and for all anyone knows, doesn't make it to Westeros until the last chapter or maybe not even then?  Maybe he's lost his motivation because he did kill off too many of his best characters and maybe he can't finish the story for the same reason.  Summer, ahem, cough, cough.  I know I'm less interested in Winds after the show's last episode.

Yep....more skimming for me... 

 

Haha maybe Dany is never meant to make it to Westeros.....

 

Ok Dany fans calm down....just a joke....

 

6 hours ago, JEORDHl said:

Reflecting on your reaction, I'd conclude that respect probably means different things to you and I. 

 

 

I think you can respect someone and simultaneously question their motives, etc. Martin has created one fantastic novel, but I think for whatever reason (greed, boredom, desire, interests..pick your poison) he made a huge mistake by turning the book into a tv series. He became involved in far too many side projects. If he wants to watch football, travel to Germany, sign book is LA, and eat dinner in Milwaukee....WTF cares...it is his life; he should be able to enjoy it. But what is particularly aggravating is the constant news, etc of all these side projects that he begins/completes yet aSoIaF slowly becomes smothered in dust. Which is why I suggested in the comment before this one that we should stop making excuses for him. 

[First of the First Men]

 

8 hours ago, JonisHenryTudor said:

BUT. GoT was published in 1996, CoK 1999, and SoS 2000. These books are also widely praised as the best in the series. Feast and Dance (now Winds) are the only books to suffer from large gaps between books. Feast (2005), Dance (2011), Winds (TBA). 

 

 

http://www.fandomfollowing.com/literature-genre-expectation-tale-two-authors/

I found the first comment by user Dustin interesting in this respect (the article itself is not concerned with our topic here)

Quote

I agree that a lot of complaints about A Feast for Crows are rooted in disappointed expectations, but I would argue that it's because of a more genre-neutral expectation of narrative focus. I once read a book that spoke of four main narrative focuses: milieu, idea, character, and event. All stories have some of each, but most stories focus on one to maintain unity and make their point:

That being said, I don't see the gaps as the reason the FeastDance feels so different from the the first three. AGOT-ASOS were act I which set the stage, FeastDance is an interlude where the pieces are moved into place for the finale (TWOW/ADOS).

[God-Emperor of Yi Ti]

1 hour ago, JonisHenryTudor said:

Martin has created one fantastic novel, but I think for whatever reason (greed, boredom, desire, interests..pick your poison) he made a huge mistake by turning the book into a tv series. He became involved in far too many side projects. If he wants to watch football, travel to Germany, sign book is LA, and eat dinner in Milwaukee....WTF cares...it is his life; he should be able to enjoy it. But what is particularly aggravating is the constant news, etc of all these side projects that he begins/completes yet aSoIaF slowly becomes smothered in dust. Which is why I suggested in the comment before this one that we should stop making excuses for him. 

It what sense was the tv show a mistake? Alright it opened him up to additional temptations, but the series only started in 2011, that hardly accounts for the preceding 11 years. Has it made the procrastination worse? Almost certainly....

And even through the most negative filter , the tv show will give us the main plot points and an  ending to the saga, maybe the only ending.....

In a perfect world, we get our ending and then in his own time GRRM gives us the richly plotted "full story" that gives us more to chew on. But as you say the endless side stepping indicates someone who has fallen out of love with the project. Will the revelations of this season spur him into action? Yep maybe enough to get WOW over the line.. But i have my doubts he will then press on to 2021 writing a story that we already know the [ big picture] ending to....

 

[JonisHenryTudor]

11 hours ago, God-Emperor of Yi Ti said:

It what sense was the tv show a mistake? Alright it opened him up to additional temptations, but the series only started in 2011, that hardly accounts for the preceding 11 years. Has it made the procrastination worse? Almost certainly....

And even through the most negative filter , the tv show will give us the main plot points and an  ending to the saga, maybe the only ending.....

In a perfect world, we get our ending and then in his own time GRRM gives us the richly plotted "full story" that gives us more to chew on. But as you say the endless side stepping indicates someone who has fallen out of love with the project. Will the revelations of this season spur him into action? Yep maybe enough to get WOW over the line.. But i have my doubts he will then press on to 2021 writing a story that we already know the [ big picture] ending to....

 

Basically I meant what you say in the the bold. But also as CasStark mentioned previously, he has ruined it for himself. The series started in 2011, but productions, conversations, etc all started beforehand. Then again I may be wrong because I didn't keep too many tabs on the show for the first few seasons. 

 

Another reason that I consider it a mistake figures into the initial problem of having too large of a book. Theoretically, he should have resolved that by the end of Dance which was published in 2011 (the same as S1). Since S1, his popularity exploded, and people reading outside the genre suddenly wanted something to do with him, and here we are again waiting almost 5 years between books. I am not suggesting that had the show not existed, Winds would be here...but I suspect it hasn't helped. 

 

A lot of people have those concerns...I try to remain positive...but that is just me being naive.. 

[God-Emperor of Yi Ti]

18 minutes ago, JonisHenryTudor said:

A lot of people have those concerns...I try to remain positive...but that is just me being naive.. 

meanwhile, back at the ranch, times are busy.....

http://grrm.livejournal.com/488956.html

hope he left some stuff in the freezer for the monkey

[ Yes, Yes, he's not our bitch....but couldn't he bring the laptop just in case he has a fit of inspiration?  ]

[sifth]

1 hour ago, JonisHenryTudor said:

Basically I meant what you say in the the bold. But also as CasStark mentioned previously, he has ruined it for himself. The series started in 2011, but productions, conversations, etc all started beforehand. Then again I may be wrong because I didn't keep too many tabs on the show for the first few seasons. 

 

Another reason that I consider it a mistake figures into the initial problem of having too large of a book. Theoretically, he should have resolved that by the end of Dance which was published in 2011 (the same as S1). Since S1, his popularity exploded, and people reading outside the genre suddenly wanted something to do with him, and here we are again waiting almost 5 years between books. I am not suggested that had the show not existed, Winds would be here...but I suspect it hasn't helped. 

 

A lot of people have those concerns...I try to remain positive...but that is just me being naive.. 

The tv series was in the works as early as 2007. So GRRM knew it was coming, but did nothing to change the pacing of his books.

[Werthead]

23 hours ago, sifth said:

Not a hard worker though apperently.

I didn't notice this before. This is unmitigated horseshit of a statement, directly insulting to the author and flat-out untrue. An author who spends 25 years+ working on one story and writing millions of words certainly is a hard worker.

The board rules state very clearly that insults and disrespect to the author will not be tolerated. Further statements in this vein will result in posts being deleted and the thread closed.

 

 

 

[Jazzman]

12 minutes ago, Werthead said:

I didn't notice this before. This is unmitigated horseshit of a statement, directly insulting to the author and flat-out untrue. An author who spends 25 years+ working on one story and writing millions of words certainly is a hard worker.

The board rules state very clearly that insults and disrespect to the author will not be tolerated. Further statements in this vein will result in posts being deleted and the thread closed.

 

 

 

Hear hear!

[sifth]

1 hour ago, Werthead said:

I didn't notice this before. This is unmitigated horseshit of a statement, directly insulting to the author and flat-out untrue. An author who spends 25 years+ working on one story and writing millions of words certainly is a hard worker.

The board rules state very clearly that insults and disrespect to the author will not be tolerated. Further statements in this vein will result in posts being deleted and the thread closed.

 

 

 

It was a joke, please calm down, I said as much above.

[Calibandar]

On 5/21/2016 at 2:31 PM, Lord Varys said:

The five-year-gap would never have worked. There were, perhaps, four stories in which it could have worked (Sansa's, Arya's, Bran's, and Dany's) because they were isolated enough from everything else to jump ahead in time without losing everything important (or rather, to give the reader the illusion that nothing important was lost).

But the stories that were intricately woven into each other or whose developments sort of demand some sort of immediate reaction or repercussion from some other faction would completely rip this thing to pieces.

Perhaps we can be told five years after the fact that Littlefinger got away with Lysa's murder but the idea that how Cersei/Roose did not deal with Stannis and Jon Snow for five long years just never could make any sense. Nor the idea that Dorne would do nothing for another five years or so. Dany might be relatively safe in Meereen for five years - but still, one wonders why Cersei didn't send some assassins to take her out in the meantime. And so on.

Euron did also return back in ASoS so one would expect that guy to begin whatever he was up to immediately after he took power.

Not to mention that the most important cliffhangers of ASoS - Tyrion's escape, the aftermath of Lysa's death, Stannis/Jon at the Wall, and others - clearly demanded/cried for a direct continuation. I mean, we all wanted to read about Cersei's, Jaime's, Kevan's, etc. reaction to Tywin's death, right?

And slowing down the story after the gap with a lot of flashback chapters wouldn't have worked well, either. Every character would have lived through something important in his/her past, after all.

Like Jeordhi I am completely unconvinced by the need for the 5 year gap. Like others who have posted this, I think George was wrong to do this, he made a structural mistake and that is where all the shit started.

More importantly, I never see compelling arguments for why the gap really could not have worked. 

Your post at least goes into some details and examples as to why you think it would not have worked. 

I can honestly say that I think nearly everything you mention could have been explained despite a 5 year gap.

Is it inexplicable that Cersei never managed to deal with Stannis in 5 years while he was at the other side of the continent? No.

Is it inexplicable that Stannis stayed in the North all this time? No. It is hard to believe he would stay at the Wall 5 years yes, but you can invent things for him to do in those 5 years that would plausibly bring him where he needs to be at the point you start the story 5 years on. Roose and Stannis could have been circling each other for quite a while, having various smaller engagements for instance, if you want to convey that in flashback.

Is it inexplicable if Dorne does not act immediately? Not it simply isn't inexplicable. Doran has been playing a long game anyway and this could be seen in light of that.

Dany's storyline, like Bran's and Arya's is fine with the gap. Dany still hasn't made her move anyway even with Dance showing her tale.

Can Littlefinger not rule the Vale as Petyr's warden in the 5 year gap? Of course he can.

Do we need to see how in those 5 years Tyrion has adventures all over Essos? Or could we re-open his story years later in George's original plan with him finally approaching Daenerys and coming to her side? Of course we can.

The only way you cannot have the gap is if you need to have every little plot development detailed and explained. There are actually some things in the story you can gloss over you know. Just because George made this decision doesn't mean that you cannot admit, with the advantage of hindsight, that it was not necessary.

 

On 5/24/2016 at 1:22 PM, Crixus said:

Agreed. He spent so much time laying down hints and clues, everything building up beautifully to something fascinating and complex and satisfying, only to be revealed in a 2 min scene in the show.... answers he steadfastly avoided giving to reporters and fans for decades. As you say, it was so important to him (and us).  

It's an odd feeling, to be given rather pedestrian answers to questions you've mulled over and discussed for years. Underwhelming. And as I said, for me it's the details, the reasons and choices and all that juicy stuff that leads to big events. The show has a tendency to just shove such events in our faces abruptly. 

Oh well. 

Watching the episodes of the excellent sixth season has given me the exact same feeling.

Great episodes, but they are throwing big bombs on us in every episode and sometimes with very little screen-time and explanation. These are things that were mysteries for so long and it is all being revealed by the show. I really do find that quite sad, for book reader, and for George. It is not the show runners' fault of course. I dread to think of all that will be revealed in the remaining 5 episodes, they are moving through the plot at a breakneck pace!

On 5/24/2016 at 5:48 PM, JEORDHl said:

 

Well, theoretically he could end it all in the next book but that isn't going to provide a net positive for anyone, right.

Martin is a ...I want to say perfectionist and maybe he's that as well [most likely]... but I'd argue more strongly toward completionist being his paramount trait as a writer. There's just way too much that would be left hanging, and Martin wouldn't ignore that, if only because he hasn't ignored any of it, like ever.

So, he's got a long, long way to go.

There's just no way he could wrap all this up in two books unless he circumvents a lot. In my opinion.

I think this question is moot because he will not be able to finish any volume after Winds of Winter regardless of intentions.

It is too much to ask at this point, given his age, the productivity of people in their 70's, the immensity of what he still needs to write. He cannot start speed racing through events the way the tv show does, that is a difference. If you see how the tv show basically picks the cherries out of GRRM's story and gets to the point in a way that George simply doesn't do, you can see he has a massive task at hand finishing this.

 

[Calibandar]

BTW, on the question of what we can take from his blog comment that the ape is growing, I guess simply that he is progressing.

At the same time, at various points last year he thought he would be done in a few months time. First in August, then October, then by New Year. That gave us the impression that he must have been fairly close on each of those occasions, and I think that is the thing that is not true. We are now 5 full months since George's new year entry and he still isn't done. It's one thing to trick yourself into thinking you can finish in a few months time if you're fairly close. What I believe is happening here is that George was still well below a 1,000 ms pages at the time of new year, and thus needs 500 more in order to finish the book. At his pace, that is a lot.

Guy Kay has published two standalone novels of 600 pages each in this period since Dance was published. And that includes a year for each book that was devoted to research not spent writing. I mention Kay because he has been mentioned as another fine writer who does take quite a while to release books. But even he is well ahead of George in productivity.

[JGP]

1 hour ago, sifth said:

It was a joke, please calm down, I said as much above.

The problem with your retrofitting it as such, whether it was a joke or or not, doesn't change the fact that it's a straight up insult, dude. Emperor's clothes, all that. It's why I called it out. 

---

Cal, I don't think you're entirely wrong there per se, but to my mind trying to establish a direct comparison between Kay and Martin is problematic. Writing wise, Kay researches heavily as his historical influences are almost tit for tat, then he writes. Martin does research [though surely not even remotely close to the extent Kay does] then writes. It seems relatively close if you leave it at that, but productivity doesn't end there, at least for Martin right. 

If the thought is that he shouldn't involve himself in anthologies, or manage the Wild Card universe, do screenwriting, attain producer credits [although the extent of his participation on GoT might be arguable, it could just be a credit, cause showbizz] or attending cons, talk shows and other special appearances, or any of the other stuff he chooses to do instead of writing ASoIaF.. then I'd argue that the criticism has left the building in regard to writing ASoIaF and has entered the realm of dictating how the guy should choose to live his life.

Which frankly [not speaking directly to you here, mind] I think is bullshit.