Hold the Door!

[tmug]

1 minute ago, WinterPool Stark said:

Maybe in the first timeline Bran got to BR with Wyllis? A complete Wyllis who carried Bran there out of love/duty until Bran fucked him for his service.

I suppose that is possible but we are not being shown that timeline. How different would their journey have been if Wyllis were there instead of Hodor? Maybe no difference at all, maybe a whole lot different. Who's to say Wyllis doesn't become an unstoppable warrior as young Ned claimed, if Bran never interferes? That is not how this story is presented so in a sense it never would have existed. Crazy talk, I know. 

I think the point here is that this was all meant to happen and the whole idea of destiny has been hammered through our heads with this episode I believe. 

[Aerys Vengeance]

I'm wondering how they translate "Hold the Door" => "Hodor" into other languages. In German it would be probably "Halte das Tor" -> "Ha-Tor" -> "Ho-Tor" -> "Hodor"...but it will be certainly not so easy in romanic languages. 

[House Cambodia]

8 hours ago, direwoofwoof said:

Tears! Loved this and hated it. Can we blame this one on GRRM or not?

Has to be. What else could 'Hodor' ever have meant?

 

"Hold the tear! Hold the tear! Hold the tear! Hoteer! Hoteer!!" Damn 

[SevasTra82]

Just now, House Cambodia said:

Has to be. What else could 'Hodor' ever have meant?

 

"Hold the tear! Hold the tear! Hold the tear! Hoteer! Hoteer!!" Damn 

In the "inside the episode" portion after the show, D&D admitted this is exactly how GRRM described how Hodor came to be.

So yes...this entire time paradox can be blamed on GRRM.

[House Cambodia]

3 hours ago, Justin Danford said:

Some people are confused on this so maybe my understanding can help...probably not:

 

So Bloodraven, having the ability to see the history of the world, knows either history can be influenced and/or Bran has the special ability to influece history.

Bloodraven knows Bran's part in creating Hodor and knows his own part as well: to die leading him there. The show established Bloodravens reluctance to let Bran get too close to the visions. When Bran calls out for his father in the TOJ sequence, Bloodraven looks considerably unnerved (either seeing that this boy can in fact interact with the history or more likely: because he is sensing (remembering) the impending moment when Bran must warg Hodor to save himself; and Bloodraven must die to get him there. 

What is unclear is why Bloodraven would take Bran into a vision knowing that warging Hodor could save him. If that is the case, BR could just tell Bran "okay warg Hodor and leave the tunnel." Instead of taking him to where that action would break Hodor's mind. This to me points to the showrunners not having enough details to close the loop entirely, so we'll have to see what Martin does.

 

But just to make sure everyone understands how fucked up this is: 

- Bloodraven takes Bran back in time to see a vision of his young father again. Young "Hodor" (Willas) is there too.

- In present time, Bran's body is in danger, and must immediatley warg into Hodor to save himself and Meera. 

- He does this, but since he has the power to affect both instances of the timeline his mind resides in, when he wargs he interacts with the present and past.

- Bran acts as a link/router: connecting his mind deliberatley to Hodor's (across all platforms of Hodor). 

- Since Bran's mind is in actuality in the presence of 2 different instances of Hodor, both are warged and connected through Bran's mind.

- Bran must then use Hodor to save himself, by making him hold back the door. 

- Present time Bran watches through Hodors eyes as he (Bran) kills his friend (Hodor) in order to save himself and his other friend.

- At the same time, Willas (connected directly to Hodor through Bran's warging local network) also watches himself die... his child mind made present at it's own death (the future) despite his child body still exisiting in its own local time (the past).

- Bran, still within the vision, see's this go down, watching young Hodor suffer from overload in the past, while watching through Hodor's eyes as he suffers to sacrifice himself and hold the door. 

- Bran hears Meera's call to hold the door shut while she drags his (Bran's) body. Bran keeps Hodor at the door watching through Hodor's eyes as his (Bran's) body is carried away into the distance: all the while he is relaying that single death moment command of "hold the door" into both Hodor's subverted minds, where it imperfectly smudges onto Willas' mind, as the only remnant of his identity once the boy Willas is connected (through Bran) to a dead and dying Hodor. 

- This means Willas and Hodor both die at this event.

- Because Bran accidently carried Willas's consciousness into the future by warging a future version of Willas while still within a past vision. Bran unwittingly steals Willas' mind out of it's body and connects it 30 something years across time into it's older counterpart.

- which because said future counterpart has already undergone this event (when it was a child), it is nothing more than a reverberating shell, echoing that last desparate command it heard 30 years ago/this dying moment.

- Bran watches as he not only robs Hodor of his life, but also Willas of his life by turning him into Hodor, but more importantly: by establishig this event as the inescapable endpoint imprinted on Hodors timeline.

- i.e. Since before Bran was born, Bran was responsible for the all the suffering and death in Hodor's life.

 

It's basically a great big ball of wibbly wobbly timey wimey stuff.

 

p.s. in b4 Bran recognizes his fall out the window as the starting point to everything bad that has happened to Westeros and vows to go do something about it.

 

 

 

Ha ha - excellent. As I began reading your post I was reminding myself that as a Whovian, I've been living with these "paradoxes" (really plot-holes) for over 50 years now. Don't burn your brain out trying to make sense of it all - it's "magic", innit? 

[dinner]

Ok,  so the part where the Night's King marks Bran and how that causes the magical protection to some how fail...  We know the wall has some sort of magical protection so does that mean if Bran makes it back through the wall,  being still marked,  would that mean the others could break through the magic of the wall just like they broke the protections of the Children of the forest?

[House Cambodia]

6 minutes ago, dinner said:

Ok,  so the part where the Night's King marks Bran and how that causes the magical protection to some how fail...  We know the wall has some sort of magical protection so does that mean if Bran makes it back through the wall,  being still marked,  would that mean the others could break through the magic of the wall just like they broke the protections of the Children of the forest?

It ought to mean that yes, in which case there is basically no limit to how disastrously Bran has screwed up. Somehow, however, I don't think the showrunners will go down that road.

[AryaFTW]

Mixed episode, 6/10. Is Bran a monster? Because he just warged Hodor into sacrificing himself...... Like it would have been more impactful if Hodor didnt have to be warged and sacrificed himself.... Better yet, keep the scene the same and at the last second have hodor yell "RUN" (both in the past and present). So that we realize he is aware and sacrificing himself....

[CJDTrismegistus]

2 hours ago, Azul DeLaRosa said:

I am sure you are right that Coldhands will be showing up soon to help. 

 

2 hours ago, Azul DeLaRosa said:

As far as hoping that Benjen finally finally shows up? Nope. I will not get my hopes up anymore with this series.

Spoiler

If you want to be spoiled, check out this link - http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1152798/

 

[mattnj81]

22 minutes ago, CJDTrismegistus said:

 

  Hide contents

If you want to be spoiled, check out this link - http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1152798/

 

I wouldn't put too much faith in that, IMDB can be edited by anybody. Michelle Fairley has been listed twice since her death as "the hooded woman." 

[mattnj81]

26 minutes ago, AryaFTW said:

Mixed episode, 6/10. Is Bran a monster? Because he just warged Hodor into sacrificing himself...... Like it would have been more impactful if Hodor didnt have to be warged and sacrificed himself.... Better yet, keep the scene the same and at the last second have hodor yell "RUN" (both in the past and present). So that we realize he is aware and sacrificing himself....

Hodor did sacrifice himself, didn't he? Bran wasn't controlling him the whole time, he just woke his ass up and got him moving. Or did I misunderstand that?

[imp-ty]

I feel like this may explain part of why Hodor is so terrified of the crypts. A person who has seen his own death would have trouble with being in a tomb. If the Old Kings of Winter statues of the "dead Starks" depict the current Night King and his colonels and only Hodor recognized them... Pretty frigging terrifying...

Also, that network of tunnels under the tree is said to be immense...

Spoiler

Similar to or connecting with the passages of Winterfell...  What's to say that the backdoor of the cave doesn't come out close to or actually past the wall? That would help with the teleporting issue and how far Meera has to drag Bran...  I think the lowest level of the winterfell crypts and the passages that Osha was trying to tell Bran about in the first season will become important. (When she swims in the cold pool of the godswood)

 

 

[CJDTrismegistus]

5 minutes ago, mattnj81 said:

I wouldn't put too much faith in that, IMDB can be edited by anybody. Michelle Fairley has been listed twice since her death as "the hooded woman." 

That's very true, I'd forgotten about that!

[sj4iy]

The very first words spoken to Hodor in the show were "Help Bran down the hall".  They troll hard.

[CJDTrismegistus]

Makes me wonder if there's a door in the cave in the books?  I don't remember one.

Maybe in the books, this scene will take place at the Black Gate and will form part of the destruction of the wall plot line?

[rocksniffer]

6 hours ago, SerJeremiahLouistark said:

Why in the F did bloodraven tell Bran he needed to go then have him stick around for some more Weirwood dreams?  

because if he doesn't then hodor stays willas and the story ends there...it has occurred (we know since hodor has been hodor since that moment) it will occur...

...i guess Data was right...

 

6 hours ago, The Fiddler said:

The zombies aren't racing them. Bran is marked. They're forcing him down south, so they can finally cross the wall. At least that's my theory. 

i completely support this statement

 

[Xarkar]

7 hours ago, SerJeremiahLouistark said:

 

Is it possible when he was having his seizure he was seeing this whole thing go down?  Where else would he get hold door from?

I think so.  Thats why he kept saying Hold the Door, then at the very end he calms down and just says hodor..  (after old Hodor dies)

[SerJeremiahLouistark]

5 hours ago, Justin Danford said:

Some people are confused on this so maybe my understanding can help...probably not:

 

So Bloodraven, having the ability to see the history of the world, knows either history can be influenced and/or Bran has the special ability to influece history.

Bloodraven knows Bran's part in creating Hodor and knows his own part as well: to die leading him there. The show established Bloodravens reluctance to let Bran get too close to the visions. When Bran calls out for his father in the TOJ sequence, Bloodraven looks considerably unnerved (either seeing that this boy can in fact interact with the history or more likely: because he is sensing (remembering) the impending moment when Bran must warg Hodor to save himself; and Bloodraven must die to get him there. 

What is unclear is why Bloodraven would take Bran into a vision knowing that warging Hodor could save him. If that is the case, BR could just tell Bran "okay warg Hodor and leave the tunnel." Instead of taking him to where that action would break Hodor's mind. This to me points to the showrunners not having enough details to close the loop entirely, so we'll have to see what Martin does.

 

But just to make sure everyone understands how fucked up this is: 

- Bloodraven takes Bran back in time to see a vision of his young father again. Young "Hodor" (Willas) is there too.

- In present time, Bran's body is in danger, and must immediatley warg into Hodor to save himself and Meera. 

- He does this, but since he has the power to affect both instances of the timeline his mind resides in, when he wargs he interacts with the present and past.

- Bran acts as a link/router: connecting his mind deliberatley to Hodor's (across all platforms of Hodor). 

- Since Bran's mind is in actuality in the presence of 2 different instances of Hodor, both are warged and connected through Bran's mind.

- Bran must then use Hodor to save himself, by making him hold back the door. 

- Present time Bran watches through Hodors eyes as he (Bran) kills his friend (Hodor) in order to save himself and his other friend.

- At the same time, Willas (connected directly to Hodor through Bran's warging local network) also watches himself die... his child mind made present at it's own death (the future) despite his child body still exisiting in its own local time (the past).

- Bran, still within the vision, see's this go down, watching young Hodor suffer from overload in the past, while watching through Hodor's eyes as he suffers to sacrifice himself and hold the door. 

- Bran hears Meera's call to hold the door shut while she drags his (Bran's) body. Bran keeps Hodor at the door watching through Hodor's eyes as his (Bran's) body is carried away into the distance: all the while he is relaying that single death moment command of "hold the door" into both Hodor's subverted minds, where it imperfectly smudges onto Willas' mind, as the only remnant of his identity once the boy Willas is connected (through Bran) to a dead and dying Hodor. 

- This means Willas and Hodor both die at this event.

- Because Bran accidently carried Willas's consciousness into the future by warging a future version of Willas while still within a past vision. Bran unwittingly steals Willas' mind out of it's body and connects it 30 something years across time into it's older counterpart.

- which because said future counterpart has already undergone this event (when it was a child), it is nothing more than a reverberating shell, echoing that last desparate command it heard 30 years ago/this dying moment.

- Bran watches as he not only robs Hodor of his life, but also Willas of his life by turning him into Hodor, but more importantly: by establishig this event as the inescapable endpoint imprinted on Hodors timeline.

- i.e. Since before Bran was born, Bran was responsible for the all the suffering and death in Hodor's life.

 

It's basically a great big ball of wibbly wobbly timey wimey stuff.

 

p.s. in b4 Bran recognizes his fall out the window as the starting point to everything bad that has happened to Westeros and vows to go do something about it.

 

 

 

So  Hodor does know this whole time, does he understand he is marching to his death.  Hodor is the true hero of this story.  

[Greg B]

5 hours ago, Justin Danford said:

p.s. in b4 Bran recognizes his fall out the window as the starting point to everything bad that has happened to Westeros and vows to go do something about it.

Based on what we know, he can't do anything about it. There's one timeline and it can't be changed. Bran was pushed out the window -- done deal. He could cause it: perhaps go back and nudge Jamie/Cersei to choose that particular room in the Broken Tower for their nooner. But he can't change it.

[of man and wolf]

How is a girl going to run away fast enough dragging a bigger Bran? They're about to bust that door open. 

 

They should have gotten Bran on top of Summer who can outrun any of them.