golden_eyes Posted May 23, 2016 Share Posted May 23, 2016 Throughout the series we see main charaters like Dany, Tyrion Jon and Arya growing very close to their non-highborn counterparts, respecting them loving them, only for the non-highborns to killed off or moved off 'screen'. Why are non of the POV characters (save for Davos) non-highborn? This seems to conflict with GRRM's theme of supporting the common peasant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aduro Posted May 23, 2016 Share Posted May 23, 2016 I guess because highborn characters start out closer to the big events. We still get characters with different disadvantages like Tyrion, Sam and Jon. Also Areo and Melisandre were born low and got POVs (even if Mel only got one and Areo was basically there because Doran knew too much). TBH I would have liked to have seen maybe Gendry, Tormund, Bronn or one of Jon's lowborn black brothers get a POV at some point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CJ McLannister Posted May 23, 2016 Share Posted May 23, 2016 The marginalization of the low is a significant theme of the series. We get the POV's of the highborn specifically to show is that even the "good" ones generally don't care about the little guys. I think that's part of the message. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bright Blue Eyes Posted May 23, 2016 Share Posted May 23, 2016 Because commoners have neither the power to actually affect anything related to the plot, nor the background knowledge to even understand it. "Got chased by armed people. Got robbed by other armed people. Got raped by other armed people. Got killed by still other armed people. Got zombified by freaky ice people. Got burned by people wearing black. Who are all these people making my life and unlife so horrible?" is not what the series is about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raisin' Bran Posted May 23, 2016 Share Posted May 23, 2016 11 minutes ago, Aduro said: I guess because highborn characters start out closer to the big events. We still get characters with different disadvantages like Tyrion, Sam and Jon. Also Areo and Melisandre were born low and got POVs (even if Mel only got one and Areo was basically there because Doran knew too much). TBH I would have liked to have seen maybe Gendry, Tormund, Bronn or one of Jon's lowborn black brothers get a POV at some point. The prologues of AGOT and ASOS don't count? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aduro Posted May 23, 2016 Share Posted May 23, 2016 16 minutes ago, Raisin(g) Bran 2 Greenseer said: The prologues of AGOT and ASOS don't count? Not to me, they got POVs not plotlines one chapter each for Will and Chett. I really would rather see a lowborn character get their own plotline and character development, rather than be an accessory to Jon.Although seeing as we already had Sam and Jon and Davos and Mel at the wall maybe it would be better to have a smallfolk or freedman POV in Meereen or King's Landing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aryagonnakill#2 Posted May 23, 2016 Share Posted May 23, 2016 Areo Hotah is lowborn as well, and Mel was a slave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buried Treasure Posted May 23, 2016 Share Posted May 23, 2016 Nobility is a velvet cloak that helps disguise the plot armour. The significant POVs have each had a series of adventures that put their lives at risk. It's (mostly) believable that they survive through a blend of luck and skills but it helps a lot that there is often somebody that sees more valuable in keeping a noble alive than killing them. With lowranking POVs George has one less tool for putting his character in a dramatic situation and plausibly pulling them out of danger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sullen Posted May 23, 2016 Share Posted May 23, 2016 Counting prologues, we have more than a few: Chett Will Davos Mel Hotah And Pate Are all PoV characters, and all lowborn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ebrose Posted May 23, 2016 Share Posted May 23, 2016 And Varamyr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orphalesion Posted May 23, 2016 Share Posted May 23, 2016 Thing is, right now we already have way too many POVs as it is.... At one point it might have been nice to see the POV of a peasant recruit in one of the armies or something. As it is now, as others said, we have Mellisandre (who I pray and hope is really just a slave from Asshai) and (kind of) Davos, who might have been raised to the rank of a noble by Stannis, but who still displays the mindset of a commoner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
House Beaudreau Posted May 23, 2016 Share Posted May 23, 2016 3 hours ago, golden_eyes said: Throughout the series we see main charaters like Dany, Tyrion Jon and Arya growing very close to their non-highborn counterparts, respecting them loving them, only for the non-highborns to killed off or moved off 'screen'. Why are non of the POV characters (save for Davos) non-highborn? This seems to conflict with GRRM's theme of supporting the common peasant. I think something really great happens when we get a POV character who is highborn live the life of a commoner or a slave, its almost opposite of what we see with Davos' POV. Some of the chapters in the book are watching Tyrion try to navigate his way threw the world as a slave with Penny or watching Arya as Cat of the Canals or seeing her in Harrenhal as a serving girl. I love these chapters because being highborn is more dangerous for them in this situation than if they were truly lowborn . A major theme of the book is that Nobility and the idea of Hierarchical society is a major flaw in Humanity. I agree that it would be nice to see the perspective of someone who is not completely associated with a noble house. I really enjoyed Varamyr Sixskins Prologue chapter for this very reason. I always thought that Gendry could have used one or two Chapters in ASOS because I think the Arya Story would be even more exciting from two peoples perspective like Jon and Sam stories at the end of ASOS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nevets Posted May 23, 2016 Share Posted May 23, 2016 Probably because in a feudal society, the people who make things happen are more likely to be from the nobility. It would have been nice to have POVs from characters such as Bronn, who is lowborn but close to the action, or someone from the BwB, such as Harwin, though. For the record, I consider Melisandre and Areo Hotah as being foreigners, not lowborn. They exist, more or less, outside the class structure. I also tend to put wildlings in their own category as well, since they are a separate culture from the rest of Westeros. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimim Posted May 23, 2016 Share Posted May 23, 2016 3 hours ago, Sullen said: Counting prologues, we have more than a few: Chett Will Davos Mel Hotah And Pate Are all PoV characters, and all lowborn. Of these the only characters who get povs outside of prologues-epilogues are Davos, Mel, Hotah, all characters who are hanging around the nobility. Mel gets one measly pov. Davos and Hotah are povs for nobles. Lower class heroes do exist in fantasy--see Lynch, Sanderson, Tolkien. GRRM just never developed them, as he chose to tell his story entirely from an upper class pov. ...and I'm very happy with things as they are. There is no need to reshape the narrative to add commoner povs. Hotah was bad enough :/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bright Blue Eyes Posted May 24, 2016 Share Posted May 24, 2016 Tolkien? Please name one outside of Sam. Who is an important noble's dogrobber anyway. Yes, three ut of four hobbits were members of the highest nobility the hobbits got to offer. The other members of the fellowship are all princes, kings and dukes as well. Apart from the angelic one. Anyway, Davos is the PoV you want. A commoner. But one who had an incredible bunch of luck and spent more than fifteen years to get close enough to the circles making actual decisions that he can experience decisions and even shape them. Bronn is similar, at least while he's Tyrion's hatchet man. And that's it. Rising to that position is incredibly rare, having people like them drop out of every tree would sorely tax the suspension of disbelief. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaibaman Posted May 24, 2016 Share Posted May 24, 2016 I guess Arya isn't a good example since she is technically highborn. But it was through her POV in Clash and Storm that we get perspectives from commoners such as Gendry, Hot Pie, Lommy and others. And its through Arya's experience in those books that we get an understanding of what things are like for the lowliest of people struggling to survive in a medieval country devastated by war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walda Posted May 24, 2016 Share Posted May 24, 2016 Actually, Davos is a Lord, and a knight, and a Hand. Of common birth, but not a commoner. In a land as unequal as Westeros, there are not many commoners that can afford or are allowed to travel around of their own free will, and especially not in a way that results in them being in the presence of decision makers, while they are making decisions. Especially in military situations. Even the squires are noble-born, even the envoys need be, to be spoken to. The first prologue emphasises how grossly unequal the society of Westeros is, with Ser Waymar well dressed and put in charge of the mission in spite of being only six months at the wall, and eighteen, and Will being sent to the wall rather than lose a hand for poaching in a lord's woods. Then the next five chapters explain to us that the Wall is Westeros's model of equality, where brothers earn their position, and even a bastard (of a lord, at any rate) can rise to high office. The smallfolk are usually portrayed as hapless, superstitious, ignorant and narrow people that have enough to do surviving where they are, never mind keeping track of which king or what army. or the names of places they never saw and people they never knew. Septon Meribald is a good exception to the rule, one of the very few. But he would make a lousy point of view, as he spends most of his time going from tiny village to tiny village talking and preaching to people of no account in the Game of Thrones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norwaywolf123 Posted May 24, 2016 Share Posted May 24, 2016 Areo Hotah - Foreigner Melisandre - Foreigneer Davos - of Common birth but not a commoner Will - Commoner Chett - Commoner Pate - Commoner Only Three Lowborn POVs Lowborns i think could be intresting Highsparrow: We don't know his birth, but he would be intresting. Bronn of the Blackwater: Shadrich the Mad Mouse: Lem Lemoncloak: and a common woman pov, some peasant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bright Blue Eyes Posted May 24, 2016 Share Posted May 24, 2016 And every single "lowborn" you just named has long ceased to be a commoner, much like Davos. Half of them never were commoners anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonisHenryTudor Posted May 24, 2016 Share Posted May 24, 2016 23 hours ago, Bright Blue Eyes said: Because commoners have neither the power to actually affect anything related to the plot, nor the background knowledge to even understand it. "Got chased by armed people. Got robbed by other armed people. Got raped by other armed people. Got killed by still other armed people. Got zombified by freaky ice people. Got burned by people wearing black. Who are all these people making my life and unlife so horrible?" is not what the series is about. This. And since Martin heavily draws from the Wars of the Roses it sort of makes sense. One common critique from historians regarding the historical record is the lack of material or "sentiments" from the common Englishmen regarding the war. In a sense, Martin is capturing that very idea in his work. But at the core, this is a story about noble houses and their families. About greed, politics, and war. We get glimpses of the ramifications of their games on the general populace, but this isn't a story about a hero from flea bottom. I am sure Martin probably considered it at one point, but a pov from a commoners may have derailed the story. To compensate, Martin uses certain pov's such as Arya to give us portions of their stories. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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