Summer not dead?

[lojzelote]

I don't understand the obsession people have with blaming D&D for direwolf deaths.

Let's face it, Lady and Grey Wind both died pathetically in the book canon. Lady was slain by someone she trusted on Cersei's orders for something she had no paw in, and she never even knew what hit her. Grey Wind was straight out slaughtered by an avalanche of Frey soldiers.

I fail to see how their death is any more sensible or dignified than Summer's. Summer sacrificed himself for Bran and bought him and Meera precious few seconds to run and save themselves. That's far more than either Lady or Grey Wind can claim. He's the successful one, as much as his death might have come unexpected.

As for Shaggydog, he was mostly a non-entity, just like his owner. But given he was killed off screen, we can at least imagine him going down heroically. I mean, what's this nonsense that he was too wild to be killed? If hunters or soldiers can kill a bear, of course they can kill an overgrown wolf. Let's not kid ourselves.

[dbunting]

16 hours ago, TexasDirewolf said:

QFT

Ok?

[dbunting]

16 hours ago, mattnj81 said:

Obviously it's their story to tell, but the entire purpose of this forum is to discuss and comment on it. It's just my opinion, doesn't make GOT wrong. I thought Sansa season 5 was abhorrent, doesn't mean I'm right but also doesn't mean it can't be said.

But you did say they were wrong, you said they screwed it up. I am just saying that they told their story and just because it doesn't match the story you want doesn't mean it's done wrong.

I think we are just beating a dead direwolf by discussing this topic...get it...

[mattnj81]

1 hour ago, dbunting said:

But you did say they were wrong, you said they screwed it up. I am just saying that they told their story and just because it doesn't match the story you want doesn't mean it's done wrong.

I think we are just beating a dead direwolf by discussing this topic...get it...

Yes, in my opinion they screwed it up by making the wolves so inconsequential, others might disagree. Just like I thought they screwed up the ToJ by cutting out all the dialogue between Ned and the KG, but a lot of other people thought the scene was perfect. That's all any of these posts are, just opinions. 

And yes, we are probably beating this to death a bit. Six pages of posts about a theory that is 99.99% certainly wrong is a bit much. But a little friendly debating never hurt anybody.

 

[Neffaria]

15 hours ago, Forlong the Fat said:

Did mean Joffrey.  I never pictured Ned beheading Lady, I guess because I didn't think he would want to disfigure her.  I figured he would have cut her throat or something.  I looked back and it doesn't say exactly how he did it:

"Shortly, Jory brought him Ice.

When it was over, he said, "Choose four men and have them take the body north. Bury her at Winterfell.""

I any case, your measure of pathetic seems quite different from mine, as well as different from any definition of the word "pathetic" of which I am aware.  Lady was killed for no reason at all, and her death accomplished nothing at all.  She didn't go down fighting but was tricked into following and killed by someone she believed cared for her. 

Summer died trying to save Bran.  He was fighting against the ultimate enemy of all humans.  

 

 

perhaps when I read summers death it will be more impactful to me. On the show it felt clunky, obvious and a little trite. 

the death of Lady, while senseless in terms of her not going out fighting (which I don't necessarily believe defines the adequacy of the deaths), I did feel served a purpose (literary/figurative purpose). If we see later in the show some major ramifications of Bran losing his warging vessels, I will perhaps, change my opinion. At the moment, I don't have much faith as the show runners have largely ignored a lot of the nuance that this type of narrative would require. They're moving at breakneck speed, a lot of nuance gets lost in that pace. I am not saying that they are terrible, terrible people for killing off Summer, or that the show is horrible because of this, just saying that summers death felt expedient rather than poignant. I look forward to seeing summers death in the books, because, I stand by my argument: I believe that George will likely be able to infuse summers death with more meaning and more impact.

Earlier in the first season, they were moving at a much slower pace, as a result (In my opinion), they were able to show some of the nuance that can be found in the text: lady's death served to highlight what was about to happen to Sansa, she warned of Sansa's fate, of what happens to people who meekly and blindly follow the Lannisters. it also served as a warning in regards to Neds death, that sometimes being quiet and obedient (which I read as following the rules) can lead to your demise as well.

In the text perhaps I read her as being beheaded because of the fact that Ned used his great sword ice. and because whenever I pictured Ned with Ice I was always reminded of his lesson to his children on the day that he found the wildlings. the fact that Ned wouldn't allow Iln Payne to kill Lady was also, to me, a reveal on Ned's nature, in that Lady was of the North and at the very least deserved a clean death by her lord and master's hand, because if Ned agreed with her death sentence then it was like he himself was giving out the sentence. His agreement to her death sentence and carrying it out himself with his family's sword (the physical manifestation of his families honor) clearly show the lengths that he was willing to go to preserve the peace between his family and the Lannisters. this  to me is not pointless, it is pathetic -  yes in the very broadest formal sense of the word, in that it arouses sadness and pity. But Summers death I would say is more pathetic, but not in the same sense of the word.

and one final agree to disagree point, because I doubt we will ever see this in the same way, (although if you do have further argumentation on how D&d treated the wolves with a high level of importance or where George treated them as a prop I'd love to read them - becuase I do find it interesting that you feel so diametrically different than I do on this matter). In terms of my use of the word pathetic vs your use of the word pathetic I think these definitions work best:

in your oppinion Lady's death can be seen to fulfil the formal definition of the word:  "arousing pity, especially through vulnerability or sadness."

in my opinion Summer's can be seen to fulfil the informal definition of the word:  "miserably inadequate."

[Neffaria]

11 hours ago, ARYa_Nym said:

About Nymeria I mentioned this partially in another thread but I read:

  Hide contents

from 2 different spoiler sources that Nymeria and her pack returns this season. I also read that she and the pack at the end are returning to Winterfell with Arya leading them after she kills Walder. I'm not certain if the pack are also involved in killing Freys. 

 

Example:http://winteriscoming.net/2015/11/01/filming-not-done-in-riverrun-packs-of-wolves-spotted/

 

That would be badass

[Neffaria]

 

15 hours ago, Misnthropia said:

Summer is goooone.

Reddit seems to be jumping on this as well. But this is confirmation that Shaggy is dead to. Theyre culling CGI budget. Theyve never really explored the relationship witht he wolves and the Starks and Bran is the only one who is shown to be capable of Warging.

In the show, they simply havent given them enough of a reason to live.

 

totally agree with this.

12 hours ago, HellasLEAF said:

The underlying theme of the show is Valar Morghulis.  At the Red Wedding, a pregnant woman was stabbed in her belly and then killed.  Caitlyn Stark begging for here kids life, has her throat slit.   

Here we have Ned Stark beheaded in season one and fans are miffed that dire wolves are getting killed.  

Wolves!  We are talking animals here, like the ones they kill and eat every day in Westeroos.

Just because these Wolves look cool and belong to Starks..

 

I disagree that its because they look cool and belong to the starks, they're a character. not a piece of furniture, as a result a lot of pet owners and non alike infuse them with that kind of personification.

and if you read the OMG WTF over talisa's death, and the utter fury over Neds beheading I think you'll agree that this outcry over a wolf is a LOT smaller.

7 hours ago, The Hound 25 said:

Unfortunately, as much as i also want Summer to be alive, he's gone. And I agree with OP saying that Summer wasn't given the send off a direwolf deserved. People are saying that he died protecting Bran, which is true, but it could've been done sooo much better. For example, we saw wights coming in through the ceiling. So as Bran, Meera and Hodor are running off, have Summer take out a few of those wights as they drop from the ceiling. Rip off their heads or limbs or something (he's a big wolf, he could do that). And then the white walker general comes in, sees the 3 people trying to escape and advances towards them. But before he can take more than a few steps, Summer attacks him. Trying to prevent him from getting to Bran. He swings his ice blade and makes contact with Summer and RIP sweet wolf. Then Meera lets out a scream in anguish and launches a dragon glass spear at the white walker and inadvertently kills (because she didn't know it was dragon glass). And then they escape

I think if it was done in that way or similar to that then fans would have been less pissed about it because he went down fighting and showed that direwolves are bad ass. They're supposed to be fearsome creatures but the show portrays them as weak puppies. The show made Ramsay's hounds more fearsome than most of the direwolves. We can only hope that they do more justice to Nymeria and Ghost. 

 

I agree here too. Summers death could have been far more impactful, they could have built the tension far higher, and as a result had a much bigger payoff. 

[HellasLEAF]

10 hours ago, lojzelote said:

I don't understand the obsession people have with blaming D&D for direwolf deaths.

Let's face it, Lady and Grey Wind both died pathetically in the book canon. Lady was slain by someone she trusted on Cersei's orders for something she had no paw in, and she never even knew what hit her. Grey Wind was straight out slaughtered by an avalanche of Frey soldiers.

I fail to see how their death is any more sensible or dignified than Summer's. Summer sacrificed himself for Bran and bought him and Meera precious few seconds to run and save themselves. That's far more than either Lady or Grey Wind can claim. He's the successful one, as much as his death might have come unexpected.

As for Shaggydog, he was mostly a non-entity, just like his owner. But given he was killed off screen, we can at least imagine him going down heroically. I mean, what's this nonsense that he was too wild to be killed? If hunters or soldiers can kill a bear, of course they can kill an overgrown wolf. Let's not kid ourselves.

Thank you.

If people have formed attachments to these animals, myself included, then they should quickly unattach.  They are watching the wrong show.

Summer died protecting his master.  He has protected him many times before I am sure and lived.  It's a shame I know, but to criticize the writers there isn't logical. 

[Ser Coffee The Bold]

I think there are multiple characters who embody the old heroes in the "Age of Heroes", Bran being an echo of the last hero... who loses all his friends and lastly his dog in the story... Summer died getting him to the children and the last greenseer... his purpose was served.

Also, summer is over ect. multiple themes.

I don't know how George will do it, but it's easier to write things out in a huge novel and handle things gracefully than it is to put together a 10 minute scene... I actually thought it was incredibly well done. 

Yeah, I was very sad to see Summer go, but the wolf's story line had come to a decently logical conclusion... Doubly saddened by Hodor's story

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

Summer lives on only in a "circle of life" kind of way.

Dead as a door nail.  I though that was pretty clear from the images and sounds coming out of my Tee Vee.

[Marco van Panter]

On 24.5.2016 at 10:23 PM, Forlong the Fat said:

Your comment was that Summer would go down like a soldier. My response was that Lady didn't.  

You do realize her name is LADY, for christ's sake?! Come on, it's not that hard ...

Sansa was a lady at the time, dreaming of knights, princes and weddings. It would've been akward if Lady would've gone out fighting. Against who, btw? Ned?! 

Bran and Rickon, however, did survive the sack of Winterfell, the way to the Wall and, respectively, a nice walk to Skagos/Last Hearth or to the Land of Always Winter and a crippling fall from a tower. Furthermore, Bran might very well be the most powerful human we've seen so far in ASOIAF, given what we've seen this week, and Rickon is repeatedly described as the most fierce and wrathful of the Stark children. So, yeah, I'm I bit suprised Summer and Shaggy go out that easy, almost lady-like.

[Forlong the Fat]

6 minutes ago, Marco van Panter said:

 

You do realize her name is LADY, for christ's sake?! Come on, it's not that hard ...

Sansa was a lady at the time, dreaming of knights, princes and weddings. It would've been akward if Lady would've gone out fighting. Against whom, btw? Ned?! 

Bran and Rickon, however, did survive the sack of Winterfell, the way to the Wall and, respectively, a nice walk to Skagos/Last Hearth or to the Land of Always Winter and a crippling fall from a tower. Furthermore, Bran might very well be the most powerful human we've seen so far in ASOIAF, given what we've seen this week and Rickon is repeatedly described as the most fierce and wrathful of the Stark children. So, yeah, I'm I bit suprised Summer and Shaggy go out that easy, almost lady-like.

By this logic (if it can be called that) Summer should have died on the first day of Autumn. Lady became something other than a dire wolf when Sansa named her?

 

If there's one constant in GRRM's world, it's that anyone can be senselessly and brutally slaughtered. That started with Lady but it didn't end with her. 

[Marco van Panter]

2 minutes ago, Forlong the Fat said:

By this logic (if it can be called that) 

Books don't have a logic per se. Books have a coherent fictionality. In ASOIAF Sansa & Lady are even a prime example of this: Sansa is stumbling naively into the muddy, intrigous pit of Kings Landing and its politics and suffers immensly for something which was not her doing or fault whatsoever. She even almost dies. Sounds like what happens to Lady, doesn't it? If we can be sure of one thing, than that GRRM heavily deals in parallels between the Stark Children and their wolves.

8 minutes ago, Forlong the Fat said:

Summer should have died on the first day of Autumn.

No, Summer is a part of Brans personality. Like the court and lady-being of Sansa is a part of her.

9 minutes ago, Forlong the Fat said:

Lady became something other than a dire wolf when Sansa named her?

Lady was, from the beginning, (the direwolves being omen/prophecy and metaphor) primarily a part of Sansa. And Sansa isn't exactly the type who's fighting for her equity. At least when Lady is around because at this point she's still a naive lady. Again: metaphor.

12 minutes ago, Forlong the Fat said:

If there's one constant in GRRM's world, it's that anyone can be senselessly and brutally slaughtered.

Brutally yes. Senseless no. But yeah, we're not in GRRM-Kansas anymore.

[Marco van Panter]

Btw, what bothered me the most was that they sacrificed Summer to give Bran and Meera a 15 seconds head start ... on a goddamn SLED! D&D do realize we even use domesticated wolves to pull sleds fast. Huskys, Malamutes and so on ...

Great, pull that sled for some miles, see your head start shrink. What a pity we don't have an animal who'd be almost perfect for such a task.

[Calibandar]

There is no denying it was a very disappointing death scene. 

We've seen so little of him so far, it's basically been two years, and he comes back to die quickly and in a manner that has no effect. They could have done more with that. Even if you despreately don't want to overstate the power and importance of the Direwolves, you should still have him do more than this. 

[House Toad]

It will become infected

[Forlong the Fat]

On May 26, 2016 at 6:55 PM, Marco van Panter said:

Btw, what bothered me the most was that they sacrificed Summer to give Bran and Meera a 15 seconds head start ... on a goddamn SLED! D&D do realize we even use domesticated wolves to pull sleds fast. Huskys, Malamutes and so on ...

Great, pull that sled for some miles, see your head start shrink. What a pity we don't have an animal who'd be almost perfect for such a task.

I don't think the point of the story is to make any of the characters have good, easy, convenient lives. 

[Baelor_the_Blessed]

I think the problem is that D&D are in such a rush to end the stories they want to get rid of characters left and right, and aren't bothering much building up the characters or dramatic tension.

 

Introduce the characters at the weirwood... get rid of almost all of them a few episodes later. Reintroduce Osha... get rid of her next episode. Renintroduce Rickon... get rid of him by season's end with no apparent build-up at all. 

I'd imagine all these scenes have more impact in the books.

[Smoke317]

I really wish the wolves had a connection like in the books. Granted most of these were through Warg dreams but still. Lady died and Bran woke up. Wish we could have felt the other wolves pain when GW, SD, and Summer died. At least let Bran feel it. Actually did he "sense" that Grey Wind had passed or did they just do the night fort "guest rights" ghost story in the show?

[Marco van Panter]

7 hours ago, Forlong the Fat said:

I don't think the point of the story is to make any of the characters have good, easy, convenient lives. 

I know what you mean. Nevertheless, that'd be just some basic common sense. And I know that movies and so on are not reality and I'm always bothered about people saying "that's unrealistic" in regard of movies (because we're not talking about reality, so realism is negligible) but I still want some reasonable motivation that drives people to do stupid things, not just the fact that the plot demands it. GRRM actually does do that: Ned/Robb do stupid things because of their honor, the Night's Watch kill their Commander because they feel let down and sense danger from his decisions. Sansa does stupid things because she's naive, Dany because of her pride/megalomania, Oberyn because he's wrathful. With D&D it's, more often than not, just for the sake of advancing the plot. They throw people in septotaliban prison because of birthmarks and just knowing about who's gay, let Ellaria kill the entire house Martell because she wants to restore House Martell and let Stannis burn his only heir because of the weather. Wasting a perfectly good giant sled-wolf so the wights can catch them in the episode to come just fits that overall "I was elected to *lead*, not to *read*."-Simpsonesk storytelling.