Is Daenerys the main antagonist of the saga?

[Tianzi]

Just now, dariopatke said:

Please explain it to me how.

Er, her brother selling her to be Drogo's wife in the first place, along with charming declaration that having her raped by the entire khalasar and their horses would be also fine?

[Nerevanin]

At this moment of the story, there are hardly any heroes left because practically everyone did something not so nice. I suppose that at the moment Sam has the closest to a hero (but stealing a sword ofc). Daenerys is clearly a favorite character of D&D and they try to make her look as a protagonist while in fact she is more of an antagonist. She keeps on talking about how the Iron Throne is her birthright and how she is the savior who would end common people's suffering under "usurper's dogs" (as if Aegon I wasn't a usurper as well) while in fact she wants to invade the kingdom and kill people, as if she didn't realized after Meereen that it is mainly the common people who suffer in a war.

[bb1180]

Just now, Tianzi said:

She pre-planned their murders in case they'd say something similar they actually said. Had they agreed to cooperate with her, they wouldn't be murdered. Also, the Dothraki are a war tribe, they're murdering on a daily basis (and not necessarily in a 'honourable' manner) and they are merciless to their enemies. Should she be any different to them when they were her enemies? Or maybe she should wave some blade to defend herself/her freedom to come off as 'honourable'?

So the fact that they didn't cooperate with the great Daenerys gives her the right to murder them?  She could have just as easily had Jorah and Daario sneak her out of the city.   This is my point.  No one cares about the Khals or the Dothraki as a whole. I certainly don't. They're a completely expendable villain caricature that can die,  be murdered,  etc,  to advance Dany's storyline without any repercussion on her.  Its easy to sympathize with and justify Dany's actions when its placed in that context. 

[Bogdan]

1 minute ago, Nerevanin said:

At this moment of the story, there are hardly any heroes left because practically everyone did something not so nice. I suppose that at the moment Sam has the closest to a hero (but stealing a sword ofc). Daenerys is clearly a favorite character of D&D and they try to make her look as a protagonist while in fact she is more of an antagonist. She keeps on talking about how the Iron Throne is her birthright and how she is the savior who would end common people's suffering under "usurper's dogs" (as if Aegon I wasn't a usurper as well) while in fact she wants to invade the kingdom and kill people, as if she didn't realized after Meereen that it is mainly the common people who suffer in a war.

But Sansa and Jon wanting to take Winterfell , and bringing war to the North is just.

[bb1180]

Nevermind, Bogdan.  For some reason,  I thought you were replying to me.  

[Bogdan]

Just now, bb1180 said:

Did I say anything about Jon or Sansa?  Is the topic of this discussion Jon or Sansa? 

But only threads about Dany becoming the vilain apear,and never Jon and Sansa. I was commenting that you are perfectly ok for Jon and Sansa to retake Winterfell, but not have Dany retake Westeros.

[Vastet]

I think by the time Dany gets to Westeros, the Wall will have fallen and Tommen will be dead. Leaving both a power vacuum and a desperate need for her forces.

[nara]

39 minutes ago, Dany's Golden Fleece said:

Yeah an ally that only wanted to imprison her forever, not rape her. Some ally. 

A lot of heroes kill on this show, why is it only Daenerys is held up to extra scrutiny when she does it?

I  think Dany gets a lot of scrutiny because she makes comments like "I will take what's mine", when she's also taken things that aren't hers.  I  don't have a problem with her taking Meereen, or killing the Khals and taking the khalasars or burning Kraznys and taking the Unsullied--but own it, sister!

Also, given her grandfather and brother were crazy (at least, so we believe), it's not surprising that viewers /readers are always waiting for the other shoe to drop with her.

Personally,  I think she will be a hero of the story. I do also think she will regret motivating the Dothraki men with the idea of violence in Westeros. I think she will struggle to control them in Westeros and they have been raised on the rape and pillage concept their entire lives.

[Tianzi]

2 minutes ago, bb1180 said:

So the fact that they didn't cooperate with the great Daenerys gives her the right to murder them?  She could have just as easily had Jorah and Daario sneak her out of the city.   This is my point.  No one cares about the Khals or the Dothraki as a whole. I certainly don't. They're a completely expendable villain caricature that can die,  be murdered,  etc,  to advance Dany's storyline without any repercussion on her.  Its easy to sympathize with and justify Dany's actions when its placed in that context. 

Yes, she could sit under a rock the whole series and not speak in a voice louder than a whisper if it caused anyone's displeasure. Geez.

The Dothraki kidnapped her, threatened to rape her, assumed they would rule over her. They were unlucky that she had a cheating card. Dany is a queen and I would say that kidnapping, imprisoning and threatening the queen is a perfectly valid cause for war/executions. We might complain about the proper procedure, but she improvised with what she had. Tough. They started it. They couldn't say she didn't warn them.

And Jon/Sansa argument is perfectly valid. Actually, I'd say it's time for the Hound's wisdom about how knights and the 'best' by reputation men are killers. Dothraki kill to achieve their ends, Westerosi do it, everyone uses death penalty. Why is it suddenly a problem with Dany?

[dariopatke]

11 minutes ago, RoamingRonin said:

When they marched her to Khal Moro, her hands were bound. 

Because Ned Stark's traditions are not rooted in hurting other people. How can you not see the difference?

Slaving as a tradition = bad. 
Worshipping the Old Gods = good.

Yes, it was before they found out who she was.

Of course and I agree slavery is bad, but Dosh Khaleen has nothing to do with slavery, it is religion related. Also just abolishing slavery is even worse if you dont have a plan and she clearly doesnt, she never thinks what will happen tomorrow.

[Ser Gareth]

4 minutes ago, Bogdan said:

But Sansa and Jon wanting to take Winterfell , and bringing war to the North is just.

I am not getting drawn into the whole feminist angle (and it is an angle) of this situation but let's think about this in layman terms:

1) You come home from work to find your house has been taken over by violent squatters.  They've killed your parents.

2) As a baby you were squirreled away from your parents house as violent squatters moved in.  You can't remember the house.  In fact you moved to a different town all together and have been travelling ever since.  A few years go by and those violent squatters are dead and its now their children who squabble over the house.

Dany doesn't NEED Westeros.  She has effectively forged her own empire (or could have) elsewhere.  She WANTS Westeros because she believes it to be her birthright.  It's nothing to do with it being her home because it was never her home.

Jon & Sansa are trying to liberate their home they grew up in (and save their brother).

But ultimately, like in real life, it's a violent world.  And no successful country in the world has got where it has got without resorting to extreme violence at some point in its history.  Arguably you could say that by taking down the Mad King the Westerosoi liberated themselves from the conquering Targ oppressors in the first place.  It all comes down to a point of view.

[RoamingRonin]

1 minute ago, dariopatke said:

Yes, it was before they found out who she was.

Of course and I agree slavery is bad, but Dosh Khaleen has nothing to do with slavery, it is religion related. Also just abolishing slavery is even worse if you dont have a plan and she clearly doesnt, she never thinks what will happen tomorrow.

It doesn't matter if she is a khaleesi or common person, you don't keep people bound up and threaten them with rape.

She installed a council to rule Astapor that was overthrown by Cleon the Butcher. Her plans are not always successful. No one playing the game is perfect and their plans change. Abolishing slavery isn't worse than letting it go unchecked. If she didn't think about what would happen on the next day she wouldn't have stayed in Meereen to be queen. 

She didn't harm the Dosh Khaleen and you must know they keep eunuchs as slaves. 

[bb1180]

4 minutes ago, Tianzi said:

Yes, she could sit under a rock the whole series and not speak in a voice louder than a whisper if it caused anyone's displeasure. Geez.

The Dothraki kidnapped her, threatened to rape her, assumed they would rule over her. They were unlucky that she had a cheating card. Dany is a queen and I would say that kidnapping, imprisoning and threatening the queen is a perfectly valid cause for war/executions. We might complain about the proper procedure, but she improvised with what she had. Tough. They started it. They couldn't say she didn't warn them.

I don't entirely disagree with you and I think that's one valid interpretation,  but I don't think its the only one. 

[dariopatke]

1 minute ago, RoamingRonin said:

It doesn't matter if she is a khaleesi or common person, you don't keep people bound up and threaten them with rape.

She installed a council to rule Astapor that was overthrown by Cleon the Butcher. Her plans are not always successful. No one playing the game is perfect and their plans change. Abolishing slavery isn't worse than letting it go unchecked. If she didn't think about what would happen on the next day she wouldn't have stayed in Meereen to be queen. 

She didn't harm the Dosh Khaleen and you must know they keep eunuchs as slaves. 

Of course, which is why I dislike any idea of having Dotrakhi at Westeros. But this was different, this was related to religion, think about like when King does his wife becomes Queen Mother with no power.

In Astapor masters were slaves (Unsullied), tell me how is it different. They just switched roles.

Also smarter is to take Westeros and in the meantime start to plan what to do after. Also it would be good if you bring smart people to this cause so entire team of people can work on that and eventually (year, 5 or 25) you come back with proper solution and truly free them.

[blckp]

so its okay for sansa and jon start war and take the north cause its their birthright

and wrong for dany to take 7 kingdom cause its her birthright?

what? loool

[Tianzi]

1 minute ago, bb1180 said:

I don't entirely disagree with you and I think that's one valid interpretation,  but I don't think its the only one. 

I just want to get to the bottom of what was so evil with Dany's act. Was that she did use fire and not a traditional weapon? That she schemed to get her ends? Or the sole fact that she killed her enemies in a situation when it technically could be avoided? Because outside the fire = mad connotation present in the series I think she operates just like most of the characters in this world.

14 minutes ago, dariopatke said:

Yes, it was before they found out who she was.

Of course and I agree slavery is bad, but Dosh Khaleen has nothing to do with slavery, it is religion related. Also just abolishing slavery is even worse if you dont have a plan and she clearly doesnt, she never thinks what will happen tomorrow.

Religion or not, the moment when someone's tradition causes them to kidnap you and imprison you in the middle of nowhere for the rest of your life, is the moment you can stop being respectful to that tradition.

[bb1180]

18 minutes ago, Bogdan said:

But only threads about Dany becoming the vilain apear,and never Jon and Sansa. I was commenting that you are perfectly ok for Jon and Sansa to retake Winterfell, but not have Dany retake Westeros.

No,  I think its a fair comparison,  and yes,  I would support Jon and/or Sansa retaking Winterfell,  but not Dany retaking Westeros.  That's not a moral judgement of the three,  however.  I simply like Jon and Sansa far more than I do Dany. 

 

[Bogdan]

1 minute ago, bb1180 said:

No,  I think its a fair comparison,  and yes,  I would support Jon and/or Sansa retaking Winterfell,  but not Dany retaking Westeros.  That's not a moral judgement of the three,  however.  I simply like Jon and Sansa far more than I do Dany. 

 

So it is just I hate Dany thread that infests the book forums.

[blckp]

16 hours ago, bb1180 said:

No,  I think its a fair comparison,  and yes,  I would support Jon and/or Sansa retaking Winterfell,  but not Dany retaking Westeros.  That's not a moral judgement of the three,  however.  I simply like Jon and Sansa far more than I do Dany. 

 

and what it has to do with dany becoming villain? i like dany far more than jon and sansa, but it doesnt makes them villian

[Morgana Lannister]

1 hour ago, Juggzy said:

I think GRR's point is that nobody is all good or all bad. I think it's fairly certain that Dany and Jon will end up clashing, rather than the kissy kissy many of us had originally hoped for.  The book (and by association, the show) is doing a sterling job of making sure that one side isn't seen as good and the other as evil. 

I couldn't agree more.  Ruling isn't easy for anyone and I am sure every ruler throughout history has made mistakes and done questionable stuff (especially when looking at it in retrospect).  Comparing the deeds of one with those of another to back a favourite character is a little pointless IMHO.  However, okay there are degrees in this too, some seem to enjoy causing pain (Joffrey, Ramsay...) but I believe they both display psychopathic characteristics.  The rest, well, love them or load them they are all a little grey and thank the Gods for that lol  However I have to agree that unless Dany is really prepared to listen to some pragmatic counsel she ain't going to be very popular in Westeros, although this might be moot once the White Walkers come knocking though.  One thing I have to say, though, is that I much rather read about her than Aegon.  For some reason I never warmed to him in the books and I am super happy he is not in the show.  Total male Mary Sue IMHO, maybe it is because he was introduced late in the story and we never got to know him much but to me this character is totally underdeveloped although perhaps that was a plot device to hint to the readers that he is a fake.  In fact the only member of that crew I found moderately interesting was the septa but oh well I guess I am digressing.