Which is worse for Tommen - the Faith or Cersei?

[Tianzi]

1 hour ago, LordPathera said:

Cersei's worst for Tommen by many, many miles.

As I've said before, allying with the High Sparrow seems like the best move that Tommen has made as king thus far. He gains a strong and incorruptible ally; rescues his queen from imprisonment; endears himself to his people; and eases tensions in a messy situation created by his idiotic mother.

In fact, I fail to see why so many fans want to see the Faith Militant and High Sparrow die. I guess I'm in the minority who views the Faith Militant as the "good guys" in King's Landing, especially after you hear the High Sparrow's perspective and why he choose his path in life.

The thing is, under all that religious babbling HS is quite similar to the rest, the thing done to Cersei was power play and he quite surely didn't give a tutu about Marg's 'sins', just used her to weaken the Tyrells and win over Tommen. He might walk ostensibly barefoot, not wash, bore us to death with religious talk and play the good cop to septa Spoonella, but is quite clear he is after power shift, heck, he said it himself.

[RedShirt47]

Cersei's main priority is herself and her grip on power.

When Tommen was happy with his new Queen, Margaery, Cersei lashed out and empowered the Faith to remove Margaery so she could keep her power.
Had Margaery gotten her way and Cersei been shipped off to Casterly Rock then King's Landing wouldn't be in the mess it is just now.

Margaery is smart enough to know that she derives her power from Tommen, so a stronger Tommen means a stronger Margaery. They are a partnership, King and Queen.
Whereas a stronger Tommen means a weaker Cersei. As she is regent only because he is so young and needs guidance.

The Faith can be handled once Loras is out of their grips. The public will soon get tired of zealots ruinning all their fun. And when peace is restored and work on the lands resumes and food is plentiful then support for the Faith Militant will wane.

[ummester]

4 hours ago, tormund's beard said:

it would be a twist to see the HS just being a godly man

He is - I'm sure. That's all he is, just a godly man. He is always chastising himself for his sins as well, if people haven't noticed - he corrects himself for feeling envy and so on.

In answer to the threads question, the HS, Tommen and Kevan would likely rule wisely together, they would take Tommen to a far better place than Cersie, Olenna, Margery or Jamie could. Unfortuiantely, the bitch session between Cersie and Margery is going to get in the way of all of this.

[ummester]

1 hour ago, Tianzi said:

The thing is, under all that religious babbling HS is quite similar to the rest, the thing done to Cersei was power play and he quite surely didn't give a tutu about Marg's 'sins', just used her to weaken the Tyrells and win over Tommen. He might walk ostensibly barefoot, not wash, bore us to death with religious talk and play the good cop to septa Spoonella, but is quite clear he is after power shift, heck, he said it himself.

Cersie put him in charge of the faith in Kings Landing, thinking the faith would serve her.

It wasn't a power play, from the HS's position, to lock up Cersie - it was what his faith required him to do. Margery has been let go because she has issued a power play and the HS fell for it - Margery is a master manipulator.

He is after a power shift for the faith and the common people - not for himself. That is the difference, he is serving something greater than himself or his house. He is like the Brotherhood without Banners or Mance, or Jon, or even Dany freeing slaves is that respect - he is trying to be a better person by serving a cause greater than his own needs.

I don't think it will end well for him, but he isn't selfish and self interested like the other power players in Kings Landing.

[Tianzi]

3 minutes ago, ummester said:

Cersie put him in charge of the faith in Kings Landing, thinking the faith would serve her.

It wasn't a power play, from the HS's position, to lock up Cersie - it was what his faith required him to do. Margery has been let go because she has issued a power play and the HS fell for it - Margery is a master manipulator.

He is after a power shift for the faith and the common people - not for himself. That is the difference, he is serving something greater than himself or his house. He is like the Brotherhood without Banners or Mance, or Jon, or even Dany freeing slaves is that respect - he is trying to be a better person by serving a cause greater than his own needs.

I don't think it will end well for him, but he isn't selfish and self interested like the other power players in Kings Landing.

And he freed himself and his fraction from this allegiance, keeping the power.

The faith and common people are his means to power, as he is not a noble and has a different style. Also, supporting the poor is good PR. Marg says she made sure she was seen doing it, and HS is even more of a celebrity right now. Sure, he doesn't drink, whore or swim in riches, but he is in control, and that gives a kick. I don't take him for an idealist and I don't even take him for a religious fanatic. I think he uses this slogans for power.

[Charlie Of House Bucket]

Faith is far worse, of course.  Cersei may be a mostly horrible person, but she actually cares about Tommen and he turned out fine even if Joffrey was a bloodlusty brat bully/coward.  She's more of a danger to her many perceived enemies.  The conditional with Cersei is that she makes 100% bad decisions when she's in full fever heat of malice.  That's when she's most dangerous to everyone, including herself. 

The faith, though, is bent on personal domination and physical & psychological punishment as a means to "salvation."  Never a good sign.

[ummester]

39 minutes ago, Tianzi said:

And he freed himself and his fraction from this allegiance, keeping the power.

The faith and common people are his means to power, as he is not a noble and has a different style. Also, supporting the poor is good PR. Marg says she made sure she was seen doing it, and HS is even more of a celebrity right now. Sure, he doesn't drink, whore or swim in riches, but he is in control, and that gives a kick. I don't take him for an idealist and I don't even take him for a religious fanatic. I think he uses this slogans for power.

Of course he freed his faction because his faction never served Cersie - it served the Gods.

Was pacifism a means to Ghandi's power? Ghandi was in control - but I don't know that he got a kick out of it, not a kick in the self centred way that most people get a kick out of things - that way that Margery described, she cared because it made her look good, or feel good about herself.

I think the HS only wants power to give to the people - he is not using the people for power, rather he is using his power to try and free the people. It is just that he believes, as Charlie mentions, that freedom, or salvation, can only be achieved through physical or mental punishment.

Now, I'm not personally a theist but I am pretty sure that humans only learn through pain. It's part of our sad condition. The more we get, the more we want. The more we suffer, the more we care. I'm not saying that a religious zealot has the right to enforce this but if the people of Kings Landing are too greedy (rich) or frightened (poor) to recognise it themselves, perhaps someone needs to lead them out of their own filth.

[20goodHoldtheDoors]

 

IMHO,

To truly and accurately answer this question we would require knowledge of the HS and FM's ultimate end game and or final goal .....  As well as exactly how far will this consolidation of Crown and Faith go?  Autocratic Theocracy of some sort perhaps? Something else entirely?

[King Perkis]

4 hours ago, LordPathera said:

Cersei's worst for Tommen by many, many miles.

As I've said before, allying with the High Sparrow seems like the best move that Tommen has made as king thus far. He gains a strong and incorruptible ally; rescues his queen from imprisonment; endears himself to his people; and eases tensions in a messy situation created by his idiotic mother.

In fact, I fail to see why so many fans want to see the Faith Militant and High Sparrow die. I guess I'm in the minority who views the Faith Militant as the "good guys" in King's Landing, especially after you hear the High Sparrow's perspective and why he choose his path in life.

I don't think you can say that because power corrupts.  You look at what the crown does to people and if we allowed the HS to play out his little game plan over a period of time the same thing would happen.

[King Perkis]

51 minutes ago, ummester said:

Of course he freed his faction because his faction never served Cersie - it served the Gods.

Was pacifism a means to Ghandi's power? Ghandi was in control - but I don't know that he got a kick out of it, not a kick in the self centred way that most people get a kick out of things - that way that Margery described, she cared because it made her look good, or feel good about herself.

I think the HS only wants power to give to the people - he is not using the people for power, rather he is using his power to try and free the people. It is just that he believes, as Charlie mentions, that freedom, or salvation, can only be achieved through physical or mental punishment.

Now, I'm not personally a theist but I am pretty sure that humans only learn through pain. It's part of our sad condition. The more we get, the more we want. The more we suffer, the more we care. I'm not saying that a religious zealot has the right to enforce this but if the people of Kings Landing are too greedy (rich) or frightened (poor) to recognise it themselves, perhaps someone needs to lead them out of their own filth.

Well this is a stretch, but the only place the HS has used punishment on a person has literally been against another person in power that could come against him.  Cersei was made to do walk of shame because of her past actions ok.  Margery was supposed to do a walk of shame for her past actions (whatever those allegations were exactly) but she didn't have to do the walk because Margery brought the King under the Faith's control.  So the HS literally made a deal for power and in return let a supposed sinner off the hook without atonement (and don't tell me Margery sitting in a cell and reciting some of the seven was enough atonement to appease the HS and make him decide that the walk of shame didn't need to happen). This deal in turn led to Jaime being outed as KG and made the Tyrells look like a joke (which undermines the fact that the Tyrells are currently feeding everyone in Kingslanding). The fact is the HS has a plan and that is to, in my opinion, overthrow the crown. Because if we look at the history of the Faith militant they were literally banned for killing dragons and attempting to overthrow the current king. 

I said in another post, there is no way the HS's past is as clean as he makes it out to be because we know from this show that good people die, especially good people in power (Ned, Jon, Robb,I know those are all Starks but that is all I can think of at the moment).  I think the HS was potentially wronged or just outed from his past life for reaching too far into the highborn world. And in return, he now wants to destroy highborns in power.

[ummester]

42 minutes ago, Soccer69 said:

Well this is a stretch, but the only place the HS has used punishment on a person has literally been against another person in power that could come against him.  Cersei was made to do walk of shame because of her past actions ok.  Margery was supposed to do a walk of shame for her past actions (whatever those allegations were exactly) but she didn't have to do the walk because Margery brought the King under the Faith's control.  So the HS literally made a deal for power and in return let a supposed sinner off the hook without atonement (and don't tell me Margery sitting in a cell and reciting some of the seven was enough atonement to appease the HS and make him decide that the walk of shame didn't need to happen). This deal in turn led to Jaime being outed as KG and made the Tyrells look like a joke (which undermines the fact that the Tyrells are currently feeding everyone in Kingslanding). The fact is the HS has a plan and that is to, in my opinion, overthrow the crown. Because if we look at the history of the Faith militant they were literally banned for killing dragons and attempting to overthrow the current king. 

A lot of this depends on whether you think Margery is manipulating the HS as a means to her own ends or not. If Margery convinced the HS that she had atoned in her cell, that she had been living her whole life as a lie she didn't know was a lie and the the light of the 7 has shown her the truth - what did she have to atone for by walking? If the added bonus was that she promised to lead Tommen into the fold, to make him a better King because of what she had learnt - then perhaps the HS is being a faithful dumbass and believing everything Margery is spinning him - believing he had brought the King and Queen into his fold, for the better of everyone, and that the Queen did not need to be humiliated.

Of course, this interpretation could be wrong and the HS could be playing more of a power game with Maregery than what she is playing with him.

Re the dragons - I happen to think they are unnatural creatures raised by sorcery and that R'hllor is more like a devil than a god, so I can't really blame the Faith for being opposed to them. I also think the Targs were vicious imperialists (that just happen to look like ABBA ), so I can't blame anyone for rising up against them.

[King Perkis]

35 minutes ago, ummester said:

A lot of this depends on whether you think Margery is manipulating the HS as a means to her own ends or not. If Margery convinced the HS that she had atoned in her cell, that she had been living her whole life as a lie she didn't know was a lie and the the light of the 7 has shown her the truth - what did she have to atone for by walking? If the added bonus was that she promised to lead Tommen into the fold, to make him a better King because of what she had learnt - then perhaps the HS is being a faithful dumbass and believing everything Margery is spinning him - believing he had brought the King and Queen into his fold, for the better of everyone, and that the Queen did not need to be humiliated.

Of course, this interpretation could be wrong and the HS could be playing more of a power game with Maregery than what she is playing with him.

Re the dragons - I happen to think they are unnatural creatures raised by sorcery and that R'hllor is more like a devil than a god, so I can't really blame the Faith for being opposed to them. I also think the Targs were vicious imperialists (that just happen to look like ABBA ), so I can't blame anyone for rising up against them.

i don't think Margery had anything to atone for, the only accusation was seeing her brother with a dude and then lying about it to the HS when confronted. So, to put that in perspective, a fanatic (HS) forced his views and religion on a specific group of people in power in order to remove them from power, so that power may eventually be placed in him. This is the same thing he did with Cersei and that was done for power.I think Margery is playing the HS and used Tommen to get out of her sentence in order to benefit Loras because family and their well being is what she really cares about. But in the end, her actions ended up making her family look weaker. My whole issue is you have one guy, the HS, deciding who gets punished and how they get punished and I've never read the 7 but idk if the walk of shame is an actual punishment mentioned in there lol.  So, you have one guy who decides whether or not this person or that person needs to atone and how they atone, which leads us to why the HS picks his victims. Yes, you can argue its because he's actually a devoted person to his chosen religion but the fact is he has used his power to raise himself up, destroy others (namely competitors), and has done so largely with a smile on his face about it.  If he truly doesn't get enjoyment out of his sins and others sin, then why does he smile every time he wins lol.

I mean from past interviews I believe he thinks he is winning this power game but apparently it all comes down in an episode or two.

And on the Targ note, that entire world is ran by Imperialists and conquerors. So, I can't blame someone for being what the world makes them or using the tools the world gives them.  That's just life.

[The Imp slap]

Alternative development (just an idea):

Cersei kills Margaery for "stealing" her son, Tommen kills himself. 

The HS now... I don't buy his story at all. In my opinion, he's a man who has lost everything during Robert's war and is seeking revenge by destroying the current reigning families (Lannisters and Baratheon). 

If I'm wrong and he is for real, then the goal must be to control the Crown but not to replace it (it looks like Martin is inspired by the period that saw the Crown of England and the Vatican split). 

[Tianzi]

3 hours ago, ummester said:

Of course he freed his faction because his faction never served Cersie - it served the Gods.

Was pacifism a means to Ghandi's power? Ghandi was in control - but I don't know that he got a kick out of it, not a kick in the self centred way that most people get a kick out of things - that way that Margery described, she cared because it made her look good, or feel good about herself.

I think the HS only wants power to give to the people - he is not using the people for power, rather he is using his power to try and free the people. It is just that he believes, as Charlie mentions, that freedom, or salvation, can only be achieved through physical or mental punishment.

Now, I'm not personally a theist but I am pretty sure that humans only learn through pain. It's part of our sad condition. The more we get, the more we want. The more we suffer, the more we care. I'm not saying that a religious zealot has the right to enforce this but if the people of Kings Landing are too greedy (rich) or frightened (poor) to recognise it themselves, perhaps someone needs to lead them out of their own filth.

Well, we have different interpretation of the character then. From the beginning of time there were religious figure using 'God/s say/s so' to usurp the position of telling people what to do. I take HS as one of them.

As for Marg, I think she is doing exactly what HS wanted from her and they both know that. He zeroed in on Tommen and used her as the means to get to him. Actually, the phrase 'eyeing a target' applies here (it was also used in official synopsis - and it sounds calculative, not religious) and that's what HS is doing, looking for ways to extend power.

[King Perkis]

1 hour ago, The Imp slap said:

Alternative development (just an idea):

Cersei kills Margaery for "stealing" her son, Tommen kills himself. 

 

Could go for that. I am so tired of watching Tommen try to appease everyone when they are clearly on opposite sides of everything.

11 minutes ago, Tianzi said:

As for Marg, I think she is doing exactly what HS wanted from her and they both know that. He zeroed in on Tommen and used her as the means to get to him. Actually, the phrase 'eyeing a target' applies here (it was also used in official synopsis - and it sounds calculative, not religious) and that's what HS is doing, looking for ways to extend power.

I like that analysis better.  Seems to fit with the storyline and how it seems this plot is going to end.

[mattnj81]

I personally think Marg is simply manipulating both the HS and Tommen. She wanted out of the cell but didn't want to do the walk. So she convinced the HS she was converted and converted Tommen for him. Now she effectively speaks for both the crown and the faith, and is in a win/win situation for Cersei's trial. No matter which champion wins, she can say "told ya so."

[tallTale]

Poor Tommen.

He has been manipulated by people for his entire life. If Tywin was still alive he could have taught him how to rule.

[Panther2000]

On Tuesday, May 31, 2016 at 11:47 AM, Soccer69 said:

if you look at just the show then the faith. Cersei since her walk of shame has acted more rational than she does in the book.  further, the faith's only goal seems to be destroying any high born they can.  The faith militant began by removing the High Septon, which cleared the path for the HS.  Then they basically made Cersei a running joke with the commoners, Jamie has been removed from his position, and the Tyrells were publicly humiliated.  But the Faith is hypocritical.  Lancel slept with Cersei (family), spied for Tyrion, and did several other things yet he simply needed to repent and was accepted into the fold.  His word is also taken at face value and no other checks have to be done to verify what he says (ie I slept with Cersei).  The same for the guy Loras slept with they just take his statements at value and assume margery and Loras are lying when they say it didn't happen.  granted this guy knew of Loras birthmark so that helps out but still.  To sum all that up, Cersei has acted more rational since the Walk of Shame and seems to be biding her time, so how dangerous she really will be go forward is a bit of a mystery.  The Faith seems to be fanatics and it is literally join us or die.  Therefore, the bigger threat to Tommen is the faith it seems.

 I have to agree,  the faith are fanatics & very little else is worse than someone doing acts of violence in the Name of God.  I hate Cersei and did not feel an ounce of sorry for her during her walk of shame, however something has to be said when some new comes into the picture & makes me want to root for Cersei.   Cersei is BSC, yes, but she does have 2 things going for her.  Her Love for her children(oops child) and her Cheekbones.  However, Cersei has only 1 persone to blame in all of this, herself.  Trying to get back at Margery, she brought this down on her own house.   Cersei isn't as smart as she thinks she is.  

[Net-Viper X]

Packs of religious fanatics forcing their views on others and threatening violence with those who don't fall in line is never a good thing for anyone.

[Xarkar]

Cersei has never been "a good person"  She also is a traitor, for sleeping with Jamie while married to Robert.  Cersei also only cares about Cersei and Cersei's children.  

She would make a horrible ruler.

The HS on the other hand comes off as a "nice guy".  I think we will see there is more to him, and to be honest once Cersei and Tommen die, he will likely sit on the iron throne under the pretense that "well someone has to do it"  

Think, when Tommen dies, (we know he dies before Cersei as per the prophecy) we assume Cersei will die very shortly after.  I like the idea of Cersei realizing that Margery is the one manipulating Tommen, so she kills her.  This causes a rift between the two houses, Tommon to kill himself, or get himself killed and then Cersei to go mad.

 

What is worse for Tommer personaly?  I think Cersei.  He controls the KG, he has the power to lock her up, and if he is smart enough to broker a truce with the FM could actually become a "good king"  The only question is if the FM is true to their word, which we assume they are not.  (why else would you send away Jamie).  Now the HS just has to get the Tyrell army out of KL and they can seize it.  Anyone see a trade coming... HS gives Olenna Loras, under the condition she leaves the city.