Fox of House McCloud Posted June 1, 2016 Share Posted June 1, 2016 16 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said: Why are Griff and Stannis commanders then? And why is Stannis one of the best? ...because they personally led/commanded armies in important victories and have great military deeds (such as Stannis defeating the Ironborn fleet at sea during Balon's rebellion) in their resumes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boarsbane Posted June 1, 2016 Share Posted June 1, 2016 3 minutes ago, Fox of House McCloud said: ...because they personally led/commanded armies in important victories and have great military deeds (such as Stannis defeating the Ironborn fleet at sea during Balon's rebellion) in their resumes? Connington has no notable victories, only a well executed retreat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugorfonics Posted June 1, 2016 Share Posted June 1, 2016 3 minutes ago, Fox of House McCloud said: ...because they personally led/commanded armies in important victories and have great military deeds (such as Stannis defeating the Ironborn fleet at sea during Balon's rebellion) in their resumes? Which Tyrion did not? I may be wrong, but im pretty sure Harry Strickland led the assault on Griff's roost, and Aegon at Stormsend. (Granted Griff did all the planning, or had the final word) Word, Stannis did defeat Victarion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
house of dayne Posted June 1, 2016 Share Posted June 1, 2016 Randyll tarly, victarion, asha and euron greyjoy, harry strickland, stannis, roose bolton, barriston selmy, daario naharis, the tattered prince... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fox of House McCloud Posted June 1, 2016 Share Posted June 1, 2016 1 hour ago, Boarsbane said: Connington has no notable victories, only a well executed retreat It's been a while since I last read DWD but doesn't it touch on some of Jon's feats that led him to rise through the ranks so quickly? 1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said: Which Tyrion did not? As far as I can recall, he rallied some of the men at the Blackwater, and directed the clansmen in the battle against Roose. Noteworthy accomplishments for sure, but not comparable to what we've seen/heard about men like Stannis and Randyll. I might need to reread a bit on JonCon, although he has already obviously played a large part in Aegon's invasion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugorfonics Posted June 2, 2016 Share Posted June 2, 2016 1 hour ago, Fox of House McCloud said: It's been a while since I last read DWD but doesn't it touch on some of Jon's feats that led him to rise through the ranks so quickly? As far as I can recall, he rallied some of the men at the Blackwater, and directed the clansmen in the battle against Roose. Noteworthy accomplishments for sure, but not comparable to what we've seen/heard about men like Stannis and Randyll. I might need to reread a bit on JonCon, although he has already obviously played a large part in Aegon's invasion. Its been a while since I read dance too, but I think he was thought young and inexperienced, at least for a hand if not a commander. Although not inexperienced enough to not lose to Robert, just Ned. Word. The entire invasion was Griffs plan, like the entire defense of KL was Tyrions. I put Randyll on my last as well, now I'm not so sure. Has he done anything besides beat Robert under Maces banner, play fourth fiddle in Blackwater and hang some outlaws? Its a better resume then Jaimes, but a far cry from Stannis or Greyjoy. Euron or Victarion, whichever Greyjoy you think constitutes as commander. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivan Tsarevich Posted June 2, 2016 Share Posted June 2, 2016 16 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said: I put Randyll on my last as well, now I'm not so sure. Has he done anything besides beat Robert under Maces banner, play fourth fiddle in Blackwater and hang some outlaws? Its a better resume then Jaimes, but a far cry from Stannis or Greyjoy. Euron or Victarion, whichever Greyjoy you think constitutes as commander. Beat Glover and Karstark at Duskendale with Mountain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugorfonics Posted June 2, 2016 Share Posted June 2, 2016 8 minutes ago, TsarGrey said: Beat Glover and Karstark at Duskendale with Mountain. Duskendale, Lol Jesus. Randylls list is getting less and less impressive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
draft0 Posted June 2, 2016 Share Posted June 2, 2016 Stannis, Mance, Jaime, Victarion, and Connington all have horrible black marks on their resumes. Like, legendary defeats which doomed their entire campaigns. Yeah, nobody wins all the time, but you can't hand wave these away. (Granted, Connington's defeat at the Battle of the Bells came many years ago.) The best commander is obviously Robb, but he's dead. His right hand man the Blackfish might be the next best thing. Randyll Tarly and Euron Greyjoy are currently undefeated, with great feats. Jon Snow is an interesting case. I think he has great potential but no impressive victories as yet. Roose Bolton is a savvy politician but a mediocre general. Remember, he lost at the Green Fork, and might lose at Winterfell as well. He's good for stabbing people in the back, what else? Not sure what to think about Barristan. Does he get credit for winning the War of the Ninepenny Kings? But he lost on the Trident, and has never been praised as a great military mind. The guy gives a damn good battle speech, I'll give him that. Holy Trinity: Blackfish, Randyll Tarly, Euron Dark Horse: Jon Snow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
House Beaudreau Posted June 2, 2016 Share Posted June 2, 2016 1. Randyll Tarly. He is a veteran commander and a capable Fighter. He Defeated King Robert at Ashford and broke the Northern force moving to Duskendale. He commanded the Center Vanguard at the Battle of the Blackwater. He also advised Renly to Attack Stannis and break any strength he has. Smart and Capable. 2. Barristan Selmy He is probably the finest warrior in the world. He is a veteran of more battles that any man in Westeros. His battle advice is always good and in the preview of TWOW his strategy is textbook as far as know the strength and weakness of your own army as well as your enemies. 3. Mance Ryder. He commanded the largest Force in all of westeros. He earned the Loyalty of his men through actions, he wasn't born with bannermen. His plan for Attacking the Wall was Solid... His only mistake was half trusting Jon Snow. Mance would have taken the wall and probably most of the north had he executed Jon Snow on his first meeting. 5.Jamie Lannister. He makes my list because he is a veteran of Many battles. Yes he led his troops into a Ambush but was Smart enough or Arrogant enough to Know that if he Killed Robb Stark the War would end. We Also get to see how much he has learned in Playing the Game. And how he lifts the Sieges using strategy instead of force. If Jamie doesn't deserve to be on this list than no one that has ever lost a battle or any one that didn't see that the Frey betrayal coming doesn't either. .Honorable Mentions the Blackfish, Tormund Giantsbane, the Tattered Prince. Allister Thorne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
House Beaudreau Posted June 2, 2016 Share Posted June 2, 2016 8 hours ago, CJ McLannister said: Oxcross? What do we mean by commander? Military strategist? Field generals? Or leaders of men? I think Jaime is a great leader, but I'm not sure how good of a strategist he is. Or at least was. Losing his hand has made him less careless, since he can't rely on his skill to cover for bad decisions. I think Brynden is more of the seasoned veteran who understands how battles are won. He's respected by his men, but I think he was more comfortable letting Robb handle the leadership duties thus far. If we are strictly talking about leaders of men, Mance Ryder and Dany are in leaps and bounds ahead of every other commander in the known world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bright Blue Eyes Posted June 2, 2016 Share Posted June 2, 2016 1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said: Word. The entire invasion was Griffs plan, like the entire defense of KL was Tyrions. The "entire defense of KL" is actually a pretty big argument against Tyrion. It's quite an achievement to loose a fortified city during the first 24 hours of a siege, especially if you yourself estimated the siege to last for several months some time earlier. Tyrion.fucked.up. 16 minutes ago, House Beaudreau said: 2. Barristan Selmy He is probably the finest warrior in the world. He is a veteran of more battles that any man in Westeros. His battle advice is always good and in the preview of TWOW his strategy is textbook as far as know the strength and weakness of your own army as well as your enemies. Barristan is a fine warrior, but in no way a good or even decent commander. He's got basically no leadership experience, nor training beyond a dozen subordinates or the like. He messes up basic strategy in Slavers Bay (the Pale Mare was completely unexpected, despite Jaime and others harking about disease prevention on campaign) and lacks the backbone to lay down the law to an inexperienced superior. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redtree Posted June 2, 2016 Share Posted June 2, 2016 Stannis, Blackfish, that's all i got. I think Tarly is way too overrated with weak proof, just like his statement that Hightower is as rich as Lannister. He came across as decisive and rather a bully bot great military commander ? Haven't seen that yet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
house of dayne Posted June 2, 2016 Share Posted June 2, 2016 im amazed harry strickland isnt getting more love..he is the general of the best sell sword company in the world...unlike the westrosi lords, hes not a part time seasonal warrior who gets bloody every dozen years or so killing peasents..his professional company accepts contracts all over essos and are universally praised for skill and ability..the golden company are considered the best company and harry strickland is the undisputed leader...lets not forget that being a great general also means being great at logistics;supply trains, food and water, shipping and transportation, equipment and lets not forget payment of loyal soldiers..all this organization is absolutely vital for a general in wartime and all these things harry strickland excels..king robb couldnt even cross a bloody river without grovelling to the freys, harry strickland crossed the narrow sea with an army and elephants to launch the first successful invasion of westeros since who knows when...gets my vote.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugorfonics Posted June 2, 2016 Share Posted June 2, 2016 38 minutes ago, Bright Blue Eyes said: The "entire defense of KL" is actually a pretty big argument against Tyrion. It's quite an achievement to loose a fortified city during the first 24 hours of a siege, especially if you yourself estimated the siege to last for several months some time earlier. Tyrion.fucked.up. That never happened. The city was not lost, Stannis' army never successfully crosses the bay. Tyrion.fucked.up.Stannis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted June 2, 2016 Share Posted June 2, 2016 5 hours ago, Boarsbane said: Connington has no notable victories, only a well executed retreat Many IRL people are considered good commanders even if they lost. One of the most notable heroes of my country lost, and he's such. Also, I doubt BotB was the ONLY battle he leaded. He definitely did well in Essos too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boarsbane Posted June 2, 2016 Share Posted June 2, 2016 I listed him as one of the best remaining but the truth is the greatest feat he's accomplished is a successful retreat, so far as we know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thelittledragonthatcould Posted June 2, 2016 Share Posted June 2, 2016 5 minutes ago, JCRB's Honeypot said: Many IRL people are considered good commanders even if they lost. One of the most notable heroes of my country lost, and he's such. Also, I doubt BotB was the ONLY battle he leaded. He definitely did well in Essos too. I think that depends on the odds of the battle. Connington, being the Crowns representative, would have had the advantages in that situation and still came out second best. While he likely has improved his failure in Robert's Rebellion was just that, rather than a noble defeat. 22 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said: That never happened. The city was not lost, Stannis' army never successfully crosses the bay. Tyrion.fucked.up.Stannis The city was lost, the Gold Cloaks were fleeing. Stannis had won. It was only the introduction of the Tyrells and Tywin that saved the city. As damaging as his chain and the wildfire was it can be argued that had Tyrion rather spent the time fortifying the city it would not have fell so quickly. Tyrion may have done more damage than good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Drunkard Posted June 2, 2016 Share Posted June 2, 2016 Stannis, Tarly, the Blackfish, and Connington. Stannis is obvious, Tarly beat Robert with the Tyrell vanguard alone and everyone seems to think he's pretty good, the Blackfish seemed good throughout Robb's campaign, and I get the impression Connington is meant to be a sort of Tywin 2.0. Honestly there's not a lot of candidates around that we know much about. 18 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said: That never happened. The city was not lost, Stannis' army never successfully crosses the bay. Tyrion.fucked.up.Stannis Tyrion's defense was over in something like 6 hours - the Goldcloaks were killing their officers and deserting by the hundreds, mobs were rioting at two of the city gates trying to open them, Tyrion was bleeding out on the battlefield, and Stannis still had >50 ships ferrying men across (plus that boat bridge). The miraculous timing of Tywin and co. was the only thing that saved the day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted June 2, 2016 Share Posted June 2, 2016 4 hours ago, Fox of House McCloud said: It's been a while since I last read DWD but doesn't it touch on some of Jon's feats that led him to rise through the ranks so quickly? This is ambiguous. There is a chance that maaaaaybe Blackheart wanted him close for an eventual coming of Aegon, and he was somehow preparing him to lead the prince's future army. Nevertheless, if this was planned by Varys, why making Jon leave? Either way, according to Martin, Jon "had a great reputation as a warrior". Considering there was no other war before the Rebellion, and sure he won that reputation during such. So, yes, I suppose he earned Blackheart's trust and the respect of the rest of the GC on his own too. That or Blackheart wanted his griff Now, there was definitely something about Jon Connington. Tywin Lannister's only criticism about him was that he was too young and eager for glory. He ended up being right. We didn't know exactly what battles fought Jon before BotB. We know that Aerys wanted him because he was a good warrior, so I doubt it was the only one. This bit of Martin tells us a bit more: His [Merrywheater] methods proved largely ineffectual.. [---] and chose a very different man for Hand -- the young, vigorous Lord Connington, a friend of Rhaegar's who had a great reputation as a warrior. Connington assembled an army and led it into the field personally... but as you read, his methods were no more successful than Merryweather's had been. I suppose these implies he was very participant as a commander in the Rebellion. After that, we know he leaded Aegon's invasion and took the Castle with around 100 men. Being honest, he had the surprise factor on his side, and he also knew the castle very well. And now, he's planning taking Storm's End. Spoiler Which he has already done according to the recently released chapter of Arianne. So... I think we have enough evidence that Griff is in fact a very good commander. ANYONE SAYING OTHERWISE IS A HATER BECAUSE HE'S A REDHEAD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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