Who are the best commanders who are still alive?

[JonCon's Red Beard]

6 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

I think that depends on the odds of the battle. Connington, being the Crowns representative, would have had the advantages in that situation and still came out second best. While he likely has improved his failure in Robert's Rebellion was just that, rather than a noble defeat.

 

Oh, I wasn't saying Jon Connington IS a hero (he is in my heart, though), but having loses doesn't imply a failed commander. Jon did have a better chance and he failed miserably, but we don't really know what where his deeds before, or if he was already leading men before being named Hand. And he has definitely improved: he's the brain behind Aegon's invasion, which I'm sure will go spectacularly until "plot".

[DMC]

6 hours ago, house of dayne said:

Randyll tarly, victarion, asha and euron greyjoy, harry strickland, stannis, roose bolton, barriston selmy, daario naharis, the tattered prince...

Are you just trying to list ALL the living commanders?

1 hour ago, Bright Blue Eyes said:

The "entire defense of KL" is actually a pretty big argument against Tyrion. It's quite an achievement to loose a fortified city during the first 24 hours of a siege, especially if you yourself estimated the siege to last for several months some time earlier.

To be fair it was a storming not a siege.  And even Tywin begrudgingly credits the chain as crucial to their victory.

[Hugorfonics]

49 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

The city was lost, the Gold Cloaks were fleeing. Stannis had won. It was only the introduction of the Tyrells and Tywin that saved the city.

As damaging as his chain and the wildfire was it can be argued that had Tyrion rather spent the time fortifying the city it would not have fell so quickly. Tyrion may have done more damage than good.

I feel like we've been here before

The city was not lost, clearly. Some gold cloaks were fleeing, not all. Stannis lost. 

What fortifications should he have implemented?

(PS. I'm curious if you agree with my Randyll is overhyped hypothesis?)

54 minutes ago, The Drunkard said:

Tyrion's defense was over in something like 6 hours - the Goldcloaks were killing their officers and deserting by the hundreds, mobs were rioting at two of the city gates trying to open them, Tyrion was bleeding out on the battlefield, and Stannis still had >50 ships ferrying men across (plus that boat bridge). The miraculous timing of Tywin and co. was the only thing that saved the day.

Stannis' siege was doomed in six hours. The mob at the gates were crushed and they remained closed. Tyrion was bleeding, but Bronn and a Kingsguard still fought. Where do you get this idea of 50 ships? All but Sallador Saans fleet burned. The boat bridge was destroyed

[The Drunkard]

31 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Stannis' siege was doomed in six hours. The mob at the gates were crushed and they remained closed. Tyrion was bleeding, but Bronn and a Kingsguard still fought. Where do you get this idea of 50 ships? All but Sallador Saans fleet burned. The boat bridge was destroyed

Re: the mobs. I'm not referring to the landing parties. Mobs of peasants within the walls were rioting and trying to force open two different gates.

Re: the ships. 50 was a mistake, it was 30-40.

The main channel was all aflame, but a good many of the Myrmen had made for the south bank and looked to escape unscathed, and at least eight ships had landed under the city walls. Landed or wrecked, but it comes to the same thing, they've put men ashore. Worse, a good part of the south wing of the enemy's first two battle lines had been well upstream of the inferno when the hulks went up. Stannis would be left with thirty or forty galleys, at a guess; more than enough to bring his whole host across, once they had regained their courage.

Tyrion surmised correctly given the state of things before Tywin showed up.

[draft0]

2 hours ago, house of dayne said:

im amazed harry strickland isnt getting more love..he is the general of the best sell sword company in the world...unlike the westrosi lords, hes not a part time seasonal warrior who gets bloody every dozen years or so killing peasents..his professional company accepts contracts all over essos and are universally praised for skill and ability..the golden company are considered the best company and harry strickland is the undisputed leader...lets not forget that being a great general also means being great at logistics;supply trains, food and water, shipping and transportation, equipment and lets not forget payment of loyal soldiers..all this organization is absolutely vital for a general in wartime and all these things harry strickland excels..king robb couldnt even cross a bloody river without grovelling to the freys, harry strickland crossed the narrow sea with an army and elephants to launch the first successful invasion of westeros since who knows when...gets my vote..

Good point, I forgot about him.

Dany is undisputed greatest conqueror in the world if we go by feats, but that doesn't mean she can win a battle without experienced advisors and generals by her side. She gets a honorable mention, I guess.

I see no evidence Mance Rayder is a great commander. A great politician, yes, who unified the wildings for the first time in a generation. But what battles has he ever won? Castle Black was there for the taking and he lost. Mance had an army of 100,000 with giants and mammoths, for god's sakes. Arguably the most embarrassing defeat in the whole series.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

2 hours ago, dmc515 said:

To be fair it was a storming not a siege.  And even Tywin begrudgingly credits the chain as crucial to their victory.

That's worse: A siege is only fought when an assault would be too difficult or costly.

 

The chain made Stannis' ultimate defeat worse, because it fucked up his options to reform his forces or retreat. As such, it did something positive for the Lannisters. But for defending the city, it did nothing at all.

[DMC]

26 minutes ago, Bright Blue Eyes said:

That's worse: A siege is only fought when an assault would be too difficult or costly.

Yeah but it's worse in terms of the context - I don't see how you can blame the lack of men in KL or Stannis' (correct) determination storming was a better strategy on Tyrion.  As Hugorfonics asked, what else was Tyrion to do given the resources available to him?  Hell, he even sent out the Mountain Clans to pick off Stannis' scouts in the Kingswood - making very good use of them in the situation - which Garlan later praises as enabling the Tyrell/Lannister host to approach unawares.

[GallowsKnight]

2 hours ago, dmc515 said:

Yeah but it's worse in terms of the context - I don't see how you can blame the lack of men in KL or Stannis' (correct) determination storming was a better strategy on Tyrion.  As Hugorfonics asked, what else was Tyrion to do given the resources available to him?  Hell, he even sent out the Mountain Clans to pick off Stannis' scouts in the Kingswood - making very good use of them in the situation - which Garlan later praises as enabling the Tyrell/Lannister host to approach unawares.

Ooh. I do love a good pointing out of how terrible Tyrion's Blackwater defense was.

Remember when he sent away 300 of the Lannister's trained and loyal Redcloaks in a harebrained attempt to rescue Jaime? Or 5 naval ships, including the 400 oared King Robert's Warhammer as Myrcella's escort. Both could have helped his defense.

What could Tyrion do with his resources? He could let the smiths do what they were doing in the first place, making weapons, armour and siege equipment. As BBE points out the chain was devastating for Stannis' retreat, not so much his assault. Killing Stannis' scouts was one of the few good things he organised and even then it doesn't really help Tyrion hold Kingslanding longer.

All Tyrion needed to do was train more men, equip them, build defenses and siege weapons. But they already trained more men and they ran? That's where the 300 redcloaks would have been good to help train them and bolster them during the fighting.

[Philokles]

Stannis, Jon Con, Blackfish and Randyll. Certainly not Dany, she had the sense to devolve tactical decisions to her advisors but the strategy in Slaver's Bay has been atrocious.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

11 minutes ago, GallowsKnight said:

snip

 

It is also worth remembering that had Renly beat Stannis, with no naval force (Redwynes were still hostages) that chain was entirely useless against his army that was attacking by land.

I think this is a case of GRRM knowing the ending and allowing his characters to plan for it as Renly was still alive when the chain was ordered.

 

 

 

[apovsic]

9 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

It is also worth remembering that had Renly beat Stannis, with no naval force (Redwynes were still hostages) that chain was entirely useless against his army that was attacking by land.

I might be wrong but wasn't chain build specifically against Stannis, who was at the time still at Dragonstone and had only naval force?  

[GallowsKnight]

10 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

It is also worth remembering that had Renly beat Stannis, with no naval force (Redwynes were still hostages) that chain was entirely useless against his army that was attacking by land.

I think this is a case of GRRM knowing the ending and allowing his characters to plan for it as Renly was still alive when the chain was ordered.

That too. There's also the fact Tyrion seems to only act politically against people who are actually on his side. He removes Slynt, imprisons Pycelle and anatagonises his sister (going so far to actually poison her with a potent laxative at one point). While Varys and Littlefinger, who he had permission from Tywin to execute if he needed, caper about with their own schemes.

Tyrion was terrible at his job and it's only POV bias that makes him seem half-way competent.

[dariopatke]

2 hours ago, GallowsKnight said:

That too. There's also the fact Tyrion seems to only act politically against people who are actually on his side. He removes Slynt, imprisons Pycelle and anatagonises his sister (going so far to actually poison her with a potent laxative at one point). While Varys and Littlefinger, who he had permission from Tywin to execute if he needed, caper about with their own schemes.

Tyrion was terrible at his job and it's only POV bias that makes him seem half-way competent.

And he also sent Lannister men (much more loyal than CW) to rescue Jaime when he was waiting for siege to take place.

[Hugorfonics]

7 hours ago, The Drunkard said:

Re: the mobs. I'm not referring to the landing parties. Mobs of peasants within the walls were rioting and trying to force open two different gates.

Re: the ships. 50 was a mistake, it was 30-40.

The main channel was all aflame, but a good many of the Myrmen had made for the south bank and looked to escape unscathed, and at least eight ships had landed under the city walls. Landed or wrecked, but it comes to the same thing, they've put men ashore. Worse, a good part of the south wing of the enemy's first two battle lines had been well upstream of the inferno when the hulks went up. Stannis would be left with thirty or forty galleys, at a guess; more than enough to bring his whole host across, once they had regained their courage.

Tyrion surmised correctly given the state of things before Tywin showed up.

I don't remember a mob threatening to open the gates. Just antler men in trebuchets.

Word, those were Sallahdors sanns ships. If those were destroyed Stannis would have undoubtedly been captured. As far regaining their courage, I wouldn't hold my breath, they got scared of a ghost. Also Saans a punk, I don't see him sacrificing his fleet

By the time Tyrion gets cut, Tywin has already brought reinforcement, Tyrion sees them fighting on the opposite side of the bay.

[Hugorfonics]

3 hours ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

 

It is also worth remembering that had Renly beat Stannis, with no naval force (Redwynes were still hostages) that chain was entirely useless against his army that was attacking by land.

I think this is a case of GRRM knowing the ending and allowing his characters to plan for it as Renly was still alive when the chain was ordered.

 

 

 

Tyrion, like Tywin, knew Stannis was more dangerous. Also there was no sign of Baratheon internal fighting, also why woudnt Renly capture the navy?l

 

2 hours ago, GallowsKnight said:

That too. There's also the fact Tyrion seems to only act politically against people who are actually on his side. He removes Slynt, imprisons Pycelle and anatagonises his sister (going so far to actually poison her with a potent laxative at one point). While Varys and Littlefinger, who he had permission from Tywin to execute if he needed, caper about with their own schemes.

Tyrion was terrible at his job and it's only POV bias that makes him seem half-way competent.

Pycelle and Cersei were not on his side.

Killing Varys and Petyr would be bad for the realm then, besides all who came after didn't kill either. In fact Tywin gives Petyr a promotion

[CJ McLannister]

Didn't Tyrion (and everyone else) expect Stannis to attack directly rather than pissing around in the Stormlands playing toss the peach with his brother?  

[One-eyed Misbehavin]

10 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

That never happened. The city was not lost, Stannis' army never successfully crosses the bay.

Tyrion.fucked.up.Stannis

Thank you. How the heck could he hold back Stannis when all he had were gold cloaks? And Stannis had the far superior navy

[Lord Vance II]

As many have pointed out, there is more than one definition of best commander. 

Best battlefield commanders/tacticians 

1. Stannis, by a mile. I'm fairly certain more than one person in the books says he's the best tactician in Westeros. If not for the Deus Ex Machina arrival of the Tyrell forces he would have taken King's Landing. To me he's almost like the Robert E. Lee of Westeros, doing more with less than any other commander in the story when he should have been knocked out long ago. I think he will put any argument to rest when he whoops the Boltons in the next book. 

2. Randall Tarly. Admittedly he doesn't have a lot of proof to his claims of success other than a win over Robert Baratheon. But there is enough talk of him that he has to have talent. You don't become a Lord Paramount's spearhead for nothing. 

3. Barristan Selmy. Has winning experience coming out of his ears. Has the respect to demand loyalty and has a willingness to teach. 

4. The Blackfish. Somewhat similar to Stannis in that he manages to make things happen and stay relevant with little resources. 

5. Bronze Yohn Royce. Kind of like Tarly, not a whole lot of evidence but what is said of him. Probably marginally above average. 

Best leaders of men/motivators

1. Jaime Lannister - Legendary swordsman, son of one of the most powerful lords and a picturesque knight. Definitely the type of leader men want to follow into battle. Wins some, loses some. 

2. Jon Snow - Has quickly become a living legend. Not an elite swordsman but has generally held his own and has a Valyrian steel sword. Has convinced many men to go against what they believe due to faith in him. 

3. Mance Rayder - Never really shown to have much of a strategy past strength of numbers, but was able to unite the wildlings around him. 

3. Wyman Manderly - Hear me out. He's not a warrior by any stretch, but if the Grand Northern Conspiracy is true (and I think it almost surely is) Manderly has taken up the mantle of leadership among his Stark bannerman peers, shrewdly preserved his strength through all the warfare and might be poised to pull a coup de ta (sp?) against the Bolton/Frey alliance. 

4. Tyrion Lannister - Like Manderly, he's certainly not a warrior or a trained commander, but I think he does admirably bracing Kings Landing for Stannis attack. The chain was a brilliant way to wipe out a large part of Stannis strength and is the type of out-of-the-box thinking that would never have come from Tywin, Jaime, Tarly or any other traditional military thinker. Sure he would have lost if not for the Tyrell charge, but still, if Tyrion hadn't busted his ass trying to get ready the city might have fallen before the Tyrells got there. 

I like what I've read in here about Strickland, but I just don't remember enough to make an original argument for him. Same goes for Jon Con. Roose Bolton and Walder Frey are both sons of bitches but their power grab worked. 

 

[VVSINGOFTHECROSS]

21 hours ago, Boarsbane said:

Randyll,  Stannis, Jaime, Euron, Blackfish, Edmure, and Connington

 

I have a feeling Randyll and Stannis are very overrated.

 

Jaime impulsive to shit.

[Hadesa]

13 hours ago, Bright Blue Eyes said:

Barristan is a fine warrior, but in no way a good or even decent commander. He's got basically no leadership experience, nor training beyond a dozen subordinates or the like.

He messes up basic strategy in Slavers Bay (the Pale Mare was completely unexpected, despite Jaime and others harking about disease prevention on campaign) and lacks the backbone to lay down the law to an inexperienced superior.

He has decent leadership experience, "Ser Barristan, with fellow Kingsguard knight Ser Jonothor Darry, was sent to rally the remnants of Connington's army"  "During Greyjoy's Rebellion, Barristan led the attack on Old Wyk"

He is not in top with tarly and stannis but he is capable commander