Discussing Sansa XXIV: Forgetful North

[Mikeygigs]

Just now, A Ghost of Someone said:

Yeah, especially that dig on Robb marrying a "foreign whore". Yeah, it has been made clear to me that the majority of the Northerners prefer the Boltons which makes them marrying known fugitive Sansa and her subsequent rapes even more unnecessary.

Exactly. So why bother throwing away the alliance with the Lannisters for her? Which bannerman was so unruly as to revolt?

This is, quite simply, a product of their poor choices adapting the books. Forcing Sansa into the Jeyne Poole role, to then suddenly force her and Jon into the Stannis role makes no narrative sense from any perspective.

This show lost narrative coherence a long time ago. The scenes are interesting, but the larger plot and character motivations exist to serve questionable adaptation and story choices resulting in a world that largely contradicts itself. This is a problem that ultimately ruins the show.

[Stannistician]

1 minute ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

Yeah, especially that dig on Robb marrying a "foreign whore". Yeah, it has been made clear to me that the majority of the Northerners prefer the Boltons which makes them marrying known fugitive Sansa and her subsequent rapes even more unnecessary.

That's a good point, I didn't think of this until you brought it up.  But yeah, the alleged reason for the Boltons to break their alliance with the Lannisters/ Iron Throne with the Sansa marriage was to legitimize their reign as Warden of the North because the other northern houses would not except anyone but a Stark in WF. 

It seems that the North doesn't give a damn about the Starks right now, so Roose broke the alliance for nothing.  Also, why would Ramsay care about getting Sansa back to produce an heir if the other northern houses already back the Boltons and apparently really dislike the Starks?  Under the current political climate of the north, maybe Ramsay would be better off marrying a Manderly, Karstark, or Glover. 

[Darksky]

13 minutes ago, Mikeygigs said:

lost narrative coherence a long time ago. 

Sounds like Dance and Feast

 

and lol at people making it seem like 5 Houses make up the entire North to justify the nitpikcing. Umbers, Karstarks and Glovers' motivations are well justified. Mormonts are with Snow/Lady Bolton '16, a few others will join too. The rest is unknown.. 

[yakisikli123]

Quote

1 hour ago, Good Guy Garlan said:

Sansa saw Stannis' armies get slaughtered - twice. And here comes this stranger who keeps praising and praising Stannis and recommending to attack Winterfell with less men, and less disciplined men at that, than Stannis.

 

So yeah, how can it not make sense to distrust that guy's judgment?

Because this guy is Jon Snow, he wants to show his skills

[Future Null Infinity]

I think that Sansa knew that they will get a miserable defeat by the boltons-karstarks-Umbers, they got a disorganized army and the compaign is a disaster, Jon and Davos will never accept an alliance with Baelish, so as the eldest stark she got the responsability to act, so she acted, she knew that he is a bad guy but he is her only option, strategically is a good move, put you you hand in the hand of the bad guy and use him until further notice (Danny is using an army of rapists, Cersei is using the mountain, tywin used the freys....)

[yakisikli123]

2 hours ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

Sansa got put in her place by little Lyanna Mormont. Glover basically looked her in the eye and did the say. House Stark is dead. There is no way Rickon is getting out of this alive and Bran is nowhere to be seen. Sansa is a Bolton and Jon does not know who he really is.

[Good Guy Garlan]

1 hour ago, Pies are coming said:

Sansa saw Stannis' armies get slaughtered - twice. And here comes this stranger who keeps praising and praising Stannis and recommending to attack Winterfell with less men, and less disciplined men at that, than Stannis.

 

So yeah, how can it not make sense to distrust that guy's judgment?

Sansa's one to talk about trust. Who was it that delivered her to Ramsay's loving arms in the first place? Oh, that's right. 

Again, I understand her rationale, but as weird as it is that he's still hanging out with them, Davos already proved his worth in spades, first by resurrecting Jon and then for getting the Mormont men. He's doing more for the Stark cause than Sansa Stark :/

Plus, he wasn't saying anything stupid. He was right about the natural defenses in Stannis' camp. It wasn't Stannis' fault that he had to face the 20 Good Men and the Invincible Brienne. 

[Bear Claw]

7 minutes ago, Good Guy Garlan said:

Sansa's one to talk about trust. Who was it that delivered her to Ramsay's loving arms in the first place? Oh, that's right. 

Again, I understand her rationale, but as weird as it is that he's still hanging out with them, Davos already proved his worth in spades, first by resurrecting Jon and then for getting the Mormont men. He's doing more for the Stark cause than Sansa Stark :/

Plus, he wasn't saying anything stupid. He was right about the natural defenses in Stannis' camp. It wasn't Stannis' fault that he had to face the 20 Good Men and the Invincible Brienne. 

I forgot about the 20 Good Men. That is a horrible place to camp.

[yakisikli123]

1 hour ago, throney said:

I agree with this. I think it has a lot to do with the fact the people just love Davos. And I also wonder if it was the fact that Sansa said it. If it was anyone else would people care so much?

As an adviser I prefer Davos over Sansa

[Good Guy Garlan]

Just now, Bear Claw said:

I forgot about the 20 Good Men. That is a horrible place to camp.

Every place is a bad place to camp when you're facing the 20 Good Men. You see the 20 Good Men coming, you dead. 

 

[Smoke317]

 

I have been very hard on Sansa but with the way the show is portraying Jon, I don't blame her one bit for writing that letter to whoever the hell she wrote it to...  Where is Jon's fire?  Where's his leadership?  Taking command?  Like when he took over the watch during the battle for castle black...  Like when re recruited men for the raid on the mutineers?  Like when re rallied the wildlings at Hardhome?  Why not go around preaching about the WW's coming?  Why so fucking quiet?  Why Davos has to be the only one with any fucking sense or fire in his belly?  Jon's character has regressed and the shit is dumb. Now he doesn't even want to try to rally the Cerwyns or Manderlys...  Sansa please help this damn fool because he sure ain't coming across as the King in the North I expected him to be...

 

[Scorpion92]

Several things:

1) Jon, Davos and Sansa will clearly get outnumbered at Winterfell. The letter is certainly meant for Littlefinger, because Jon already mentioned to Lord Glover that they sent a raven to Manderlys.

2) People on the crosses we see prior battle are northern lords: Hornwood and Maizin (for allying with Starks), Glover (for not arresting the trio and sending them to Winterfell, Ramsay is a psycho), and some other lords. We know Lord Cerwyn and Lord Manderly are cast for this season, and I think initially they will be on House Bolton's side, but when Vale army arrives they will turn cloak. However, I do not expect them to survive either, bastard Ramsay will take some people with him before his demise in episode 10.

3) Knights of the Vale will help to crush Bolton/Karstark/Umber coalition. Then when the battle is over, Lord Royce tells Sansa and Jon the story Littlefinger told him and Sweetrobin about "Sansa's abduction by Boltons", Sansa will reveal his lie and tell Jon to execute the mockingbird at Winterfell godswood (I think it is Jon who approaches LF in godswood, that is why Baelish is not that happy). I don't think Vale lords and knights will object too much, and Sansa will take over control of Sweetrobin.

4) When Starks have retaken Winterfell and Ramsay and Littlefinger are dead (in episode 10), we shall see Sansa riding south with Lord Royce, Sweetrobin and Vale army as a diplomat to try and recruit southern lords to come help Jon and the North with White Walker threat.

Jon, meanwhile, since Sansa forfeited her claim and left south, will be named as Jon Stark and be elected their King in the North, the Free Folk way (democratically) and prepare the North for Night King.

He will reward the chiefs of wildling tribes with lordships, since they were the bulk of support and give them lands to settle on. Tormund is sure to get some nice and juicy castle, maybe even Dreadfort or Last Hearth. I believe he will reward Ser Davos with lordship of White Harbor and task him to build a fleet.

Given how this episode showed how remaining Starks will rely heavily on wildling forces and how some northern houses refused them, it is definitely a time for a new blood in the North, like Harald Karstark told Roose in episode 2.

[Smoke317]

3 hours ago, Florina Laufeyson said:

Im really salty about the fact she didnt speak up until the Glovers. And im even more salty about how OOC the Glovers are. W h a t. 

And where my Manderlys at? Holy shit, and 62 Mormont men? Cogman, imma cut a bitch! Sansa had no choice but to send a raven to LF for Vale guys. Im just gonna hope she takes Bronze Yohn's side when he tells her whats up.

I find it quite realistic how the Glovers responded. It's about time somebody called Robb on his dumbass decision to get EVERYONE fucking killed.  Cat's dumbass knows you seal the pact before the war starts. Just like she and Ned did. You marry the Frey daughter before joining forces. That way you ensure a little bit of loyalty. The fact that I believed Frey probably offered the "after the war" marriage should have been a red flag...

[Mikeygigs]

51 minutes ago, Darksky said:

Sounds like Dance and Feast

 

and lol at people making it seem like 5 Houses make up the entire North to justify the nitpikcing. Umbers, Karstarks and Glovers' motivations are well justified. Mormonts are with Snow/Lady Bolton '16, a few others will join too. The rest is unknown.. 

I am afraid that is not correct in this sense. Dance and Feast kept narrative coherence because there were few plot holes that actively helped to undermine the story. Say what you want about those two books, but world logic and character motivations remained consistent.

According to the show's internal logic, the only house that is of any consequence that is left to be undecided is House Manderly. So who, exactly, are you 'loling' at? The writers? 

[Tianzi]

13 minutes ago, Smoke317 said:

I find it quite realistic how the Glovers responded. It's about time somebody called Robb on his dumbass decision to get EVERYONE fucking killed.  Cat's dumbass knows you seal the pact before the war starts. Just like she and Ned did. You marry the Frey daughter before joining forces. That way you ensure a little bit of loyalty. The fact that I believed Frey probably offered the "after the war" marriage should have been a red flag...

Exactly. I was onboard even with the 'foreign whore' line, which was probably meant to sound unsympathetic.

Well, at least we see clearly it's Sansa's desperation, not any 'power hunger'. Seeing a small army preparing to march at WF, stationing exactly where not long ago another small army preparing to march at WF stationed, and knowing how it went for it... well, it awakens imagination.

Also, is is my SanSan radar awakening, or that Sandor's hate bit juxtaposed with a verse of a woman's love soothing man's brute, and singing, was suggestive?

[Lord Lannister]

I actually like how the majority of the North seems to be reluctant to side with them. On paper they don't seem to have a chance right now and what's the point of throwing in with the losing side?

I'm more interested in the wedge that seems to be forming between Sansa and Jon. Sansa almost seems to feel threatened by Jon assuming a leadership role in this matter, even though to date he's supplied the majority of their army. I wonder what Littlefinger's price for riding in on a white horse is going to be.

[Future Null Infinity]

2 minutes ago, Lord Lannister said:

I'm more interested in the wedge that seems to be forming between Sansa and Jon. Sansa almost seems to feel threatened by Jon assuming a leadership role in this matter, even though to date he's supplied the majority of their army. I wonder what Littlefinger's price for riding in on a white horse is going to be.

she is not threatened by Jon, this war isn't about the leadership, she's helping him, she didn't have a choice

[Mikeygigs]

22 minutes ago, Smoke317 said:

I find it quite realistic how the Glovers responded. It's about time somebody called Robb on his dumbass decision to get EVERYONE fucking killed.  Cat's dumbass knows you seal the pact before the war starts. Just like she and Ned did. You marry the Frey daughter before joining forces. That way you ensure a little bit of loyalty. The fact that I believed Frey probably offered the "after the war" marriage should have been a red flag...

All things considered, how is it more realistic for the Glover's to accept the lordship of Ramsay Bolton over the Starks, though? In what world is that logical, or realistic?

Robb broke a marriage pact. Walder Frey and Roose Bolton killed people under guest right, and then Ramsay murdered Roose. In what world are kinslayers, liege-murderers and psychopaths are the better option?

[Smoke317]

6 minutes ago, Tianzi said:

Exactly. I was onboard even with the 'foreign whore' line, which was probably meant to sound unsympathetic.

Well, at least we see clearly it's Sansa's desperation, not any 'power hunger'. Seeing a small army preparing to march at WF, stationing exactly where not long ago another small army preparing to march at WF stationed, and knowing how it went for it... well, it awakens imagination.

Also, is is my SanSan radar awakening, or that Sandor's hate bit juxtaposed with a verse of a woman's love soothing man's brute, and singing, was suggestive?

Here here. I owe Sansa an apology. They've butchered my favorite character Jon so much that maybe Sansa does need to assume power or at the very least help this fool. I know damn well I wouldn't proclaim him my King in the North following this episode. Dany gets all the fire and brimstone speeches and Jon is scared to speak up...  What a joke. 

[Lord Lannister]

Just now, Future Null Infinity said:

she is not threatened by Jon, this war isn't about the leadership, she's helping him, she didn't have a choice

Though she's gone out of her way to point out that she's a Stark and Jon isn't the past couple of episodes, she did seem to be argumentative with Jon this episode and she did lie to him about Littlefinger. I could be wrong, but I see the tip of a wedge in between them. I'll agree she doesn't have a choice at the moment. The bulk of their army, the wildlings, is loyal to Jon and not her.