Penny Dreadful: Think of me only when you dance [spoilers through season 3]

[Theda Baratheon]

Yes? It was absolutely bloody brilliant. I still rewatch scenes from it, it's fucking amazing. Helen Mcrory as the evil witch, the cut Wife...amazing. 

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

1 hour ago, Theda Baratheon said:

Yes? It was absolutely bloody brilliant. I still rewatch scenes from it, it's fucking amazing. Helen Mcrory as the evil witch, the cut Wife...amazing. 

See I thought that episode was really quite bad. Not a scratch on the first seasons stand alone episode 

[Theda Baratheon]

41 minutes ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

See I thought that episode was really quite bad. Not a scratch on the first seasons stand alone episode 

damn...i must have watched the cut wife episode about 6 times easy. probably more. it was gothic horror brilliance.

[Spockydog]

Yeah, for me, that was one of the best ever episodes.

[HexMachina]

39 minutes ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

See I thought that episode was really quite bad. Not a scratch on the first seasons stand alone episode 

Opinions are opinions, but this is incorrect.  

I think Season 3's standalone (kinda sorta) in episode 4 was the best episode of the show. That was the thing with season three, it had lots of brilliant stuff IMO, but it lacked the consistency of season 2 and so it didn't quite meet my expectations.

I do think 3 seasons was sufficient to end it, but I think a few more episodes would have gone a long way to allowing he loose ends to be tied up. Maybe if it had been a 12/13 episode season. Although I was satisfied by where all of the characters ended, I think they needed to spend more time getting there (I'll spoiler tag since Channel4sJonSnow is still watching)

Vanessa was always doomed to die, I think, because she'd always be hunted while she lived. But making the choice to die was the important part for her. So I liked that. But we needed more time to see her as Mother of Evil I think.

John Clare ending the series alone, reciting poetry, at Vanessa's grave, was perfect. I personally wouldn't have changed his story this season at all.

Ethan should have met Brona/Lily at Bedlam, preferably after she tells Victor the story about Sarah. They really ought to have met again. And we should have seen Jekyll go full out Hyde (although I did like the whole idea of Hyde being the monster that society has made of Jekyll, that was pretty clever). And Victor should have died, because seriously fuck Victor.

Dorian and Lily, I liked where they ended, Dorian alone, contemplating the lonely life of the Immortal, and Lily, rejecting him after seeing her plans culminate in another dead child. I could have done with maybe seeing Lily's "army" in action a bit more.

Ethan, Malcom and Kaetenay should have been given more time in the West. But Ethan and Malcom adopting a sort of Father-Son relationship in the wake of Vanessa's death was lovely. What Kaetenay was supposed to go on to do I'm not sure. 

Cat was an interesting addition but neither she nor Seward really had an ending, as such. A shame really

[RedEyedGhost]

15 hours ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

Am I alone in thinking that Season 2 was pretty 'DREADFUL' then?

Yes.  You have terrible taste in television.

[Theda Baratheon]

Can I ask why was terrible about season 2 and the cit wife episode?honestly cant think of a thing. 

Also the momento Mori scene was one of my favourites. Remember you are a man, remember you must die...*kills daughter* Lmao I so miss Helen Mcrory's witch

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

2 hours ago, Theda Baratheon said:

Can I ask why was terrible about season 2 and the cit wife episode?honestly cant think of a thing. 

Also the momento Mori scene was one of my favourites. Remember you are a man, remember you must die...*kills daughter* Lmao I so miss Helen Mcrory's witch

I've kind of mentioned it a few times on here, but I had a number of issues with Season 2, some of which I think I had with season 1 as well but they seemed to be amplified in S2.

- The first problem is that S2 has a main villain, and while the actress was phenomenal, and the 'doll room' was creepy as hell, the very presence of this evil witch was a little too close to an episode of Doctor Who or even Power Rangers for my liking. It made the whole series lose its sense of mystery and dread once you see who the enemy they are facing is. Season one was so good when Vanessa was being attacked mentally by a dark force that you couldnt see and you had to use your imagination to wonder who this dark lord was. S2 had some naked vampire witches, who looked very silly when they were running around. Constantly going back to the witches Lair and hearing their plans took so much away from the scariness of that plot, and it all became pretty uninteresting because there was no suspense.

- Having an entire season where Sir Malcolm was basically in the background muttering around was a real negative. Such a strong character and reduced to almost an extra.

- The quest to create relationships between characters, to add a bit of spice and sex to the show, even if it didn't make a lot of sense to the characters. Vanessa seemed to have a deep relationship with almost everyone, and one episode she seemed to be having deep, life changing conversations with every male character. Her relationship with Ethan wasn't very believable and seemed tacked on because they were the main characters.
 Dorians transexual girlfriend was a seemingly pointless interlude, the show never worked out what they were doing with Dorian, and it didn't add anything except titilation. 

- The Cutwife episode was ok, but it just felt like it was from another, much cheesier show. It was like a training montage spread over 1 hour. I don't really like the idea of Vanessa as a sort of Luke Skywalker superwitch, it really takes her character in a much less interesting direction. Connecting it all to the main Witch villain as well seemed like a real stretch and none of that plot, or any of the plot of season 2 seemed very well drawn out or planned. 

- It was just a very SLOW season, which really dragged in the middle and ended in a rather predictable Boss Fight at the end. S1 had a similar problem , but nowhere near as bad. By raising the stakes and the action the show really lost something. The season was full of characters just ambling around looking for ways to justify their inclusion. John Clare was an irrelevance, the waxwork plot line just a rerun of what happened in season 1, and by the end of it hes back to square one. This was all highlighted by the amount of scenes of just characters sitting and moaning about their lives, which were too numerous to be enjoyed. 

Of course S2 had some great moments, just enough to keep me going and watching the next episode, but I was hardly enthused by the end of the season. 

[HexMachina]

Afraid we will just have to agree to disagree. Especially on the relationships built between the characters, they all felt very real and well developed. Particularly Vanessa and Ethan, but also the more surprising ones like Victor and Vanessa, Sir Malcom and Evelyn etc. 

I don't see what was "cheesy" about the cut-wife episode at all either. 

Dorian's plot was admittedly distanced from the main story with Vanessa, and his has always been the weakest part of the show. But once you accept he isn't involved as such in Vanessa's story I find the stuff with him in much more enjoyable. 

There was also plenty of psychological torment for Vanessa too, in the way that Evelyn tormented her and made sure she never felt safe, stole Sir Malcom from her, had Hecate try and turn Ethan from her etc. in addition to the physical threats.

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

20 hours ago, HelenaExMachina said:

Afraid we will just have to agree to disagree. Especially on the relationships built between the characters, they all felt very real and well developed. Particularly Vanessa and Ethan, but also the more surprising ones like Victor and Vanessa, Sir Malcom and Evelyn etc. 

I don't see what was "cheesy" about the cut-wife episode at all either. 

Dorian's plot was admittedly distanced from the main story with Vanessa, and his has always been the weakest part of the show. But once you accept he isn't involved as such in Vanessa's story I find the stuff with him in much more enjoyable. 

There was also plenty of psychological torment for Vanessa too, in the way that Evelyn tormented her and made sure she never felt safe, stole Sir Malcom from her, had Hecate try and turn Ethan from her etc. in addition to the physical threats.

I know we will never agree here, you are quite a fan of the show after all! I will admit to still very much liking the show, and what it could be, but I'm often unhappy with the way it works out. I guess a bit like some feel about GoT around here.

For me most of the relationships in S2 felt unearned. Ethan and Vanessa I can kind of forgive as events in S1 might have brought them together. On its own I might have been ok with it, but it seemed that every episode Vanessa was having a deep life changing relationship with another member of the cast, and it became highly unbelievable. Whether its walking around looking at plants with Dorian, deep meaningful shags with Ethan, slightly incestuous moments with Sir Malcom, more slightly incestuous moments with Victor (hes a bit like her younger brother), and then monologue after monologue with the Monster. I think most of that happened in one episode too. Hard to care about these relationships when they are so numerous and syrupy thick.

Maybe my main problem with S2 is  WITCHES. I thought they were lame. And anything connected to that or slightly witchy became lame as well. Psychological horror is less scary when its more like a voodoo doll performance.

[HexMachina]

Vanessa and Dorian was season one, they only met very briefly in season two during the Blood Ball. She never had sex with Ethan (there was only the rare kiss) and  the way their relationship grew was very natural. And the relationship between Vanessa and Malcom in Season 2 was very much father-daughter (pretty much cemented by the season one finale anyway). With Victor, yes it was a bit flirty while still being like an older sister, but that was just Vanessa's personality; she is daring, she thought it amusing how embarrassed Victor was by the whole shopping process, she wanted to take the opportunity to have a bit of fun for once. 

I don't see having a lot of different relationships shown in the series a problem at all. It's just like real life, I can go through a single day and experience all manner of different relationships; parent-child; friends; romantic relationship; chance encounter with a stranger. I don't see why the relationships being numerous is a problem. By taking the time to build these relationships, it made me care more about the characters, rather than racing through plot points to the expense of all else and having only skin deep characters.

As for the witches, I know that kind of thing isn't for everyone, but I really enjoy the occult satanic vibes they had going on, and thought the "voodoo dolls" were incredibly well done. The torture of Gladys, for example, was absolutely chilling, and a reminder that the show is in part of the horror genre. But I can accept not liking the witches; after all, I thought the weird vampires in season one were pretty naff.

[Theda Baratheon]

I don't really think it's a good criticism to have, the ''deep, meaningful conversations'' unless you think women can't just be friends with men. I think it's highly believable Vanessa is a truly empathetic and emotional woman and has these connections with people. It totally made sense to me and I felt all the relationships were earnt from subtle and not so subtle cues and moments scattered throughout the seasons. 

[Martini Sigil]

Of the three seasons, I thought S2 was the best... I was prepared for this show to make the leap from "good" to "excellent"... but then it shit the bed in S3 with the premature finale...

[Nictarion]

I thought S2 was by far the best, with Nightcomers being my favorite episode of the show. S3 was a huge let down for me. Especially the last couple episodes. They underused Eva Green, which is unforgivable! 

@Theda Baratheon, not sure if you ever finished Banshee, but that was another great show that had a dissapointing final season.

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

On 8/28/2016 at 11:04 PM, HelenaExMachina said:

 

I don't see having a lot of different relationships shown in the series a problem at all. It's just like real life, I can go through a single day and experience all manner of different relationships; parent-child; friends; romantic relationship; chance encounter with a stranger. I don't see why the relationships being numerous is a problem. By taking the time to build these relationships, it made me care more about the characters, rather than racing through plot points to the expense of all else and having only skin deep characters.

 

For me the problem isn't that she is having relationships, its that each one was elevated to something incredibly deep and meaningful. Each time they did it, it detracted from the previous one, to the point where each long heartfelt conversation ended with me rolling my eyes. It was the repetition that was the problem. I'm sure you have plenty of relationships, but they vary in their importance to you. That wasn't how it was presented on the show. 


 

Quote

But I can accept not liking the witches; after all, I thought the weird vampires in season one were pretty naff.

I can agree that the vampires in Season 1 were a let down as well. That season was a good build up and a let down at the end. I didn't feel like S2 was even really building up to anything, it just flipped and they were all 'lets tool up and go kick some ass'. 

 

[Kyoshi]

On 26/08/2016 at 10:56 AM, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

Am I alone in thinking that Season 2 was pretty 'DREADFUL' then?

I personally think so.

I thought The Nightcomers was not only the best episode of that season, but arguably of the entire show, and maybe even among the best of television in general. Just my opinion, though.

[Kyoshi]

On 27/08/2016 at 5:04 PM, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

I've kind of mentioned it a few times on here, but I had a number of issues with Season 2, some of which I think I had with season 1 as well but they seemed to be amplified in S2.

- The first problem is that S2 has a main villain, and while the actress was phenomenal, and the 'doll room' was creepy as hell, the very presence of this evil witch was a little too close to an episode of Doctor Who or even Power Rangers for my liking. It made the whole series lose its sense of mystery and dread once you see who the enemy they are facing is. Season one was so good when Vanessa was being attacked mentally by a dark force that you couldnt see and you had to use your imagination to wonder who this dark lord was. S2 had some naked vampire witches, who looked very silly when they were running around. Constantly going back to the witches Lair and hearing their plans took so much away from the scariness of that plot, and it all became pretty uninteresting because there was no suspense.

- Having an entire season where Sir Malcolm was basically in the background muttering around was a real negative. Such a strong character and reduced to almost an extra.

- The quest to create relationships between characters, to add a bit of spice and sex to the show, even if it didn't make a lot of sense to the characters. Vanessa seemed to have a deep relationship with almost everyone, and one episode she seemed to be having deep, life changing conversations with every male character. Her relationship with Ethan wasn't very believable and seemed tacked on because they were the main characters.
 Dorians transexual girlfriend was a seemingly pointless interlude, the show never worked out what they were doing with Dorian, and it didn't add anything except titilation. 

- The Cutwife episode was ok, but it just felt like it was from another, much cheesier show. It was like a training montage spread over 1 hour. I don't really like the idea of Vanessa as a sort of Luke Skywalker superwitch, it really takes her character in a much less interesting direction. Connecting it all to the main Witch villain as well seemed like a real stretch and none of that plot, or any of the plot of season 2 seemed very well drawn out or planned. 

- It was just a very SLOW season, which really dragged in the middle and ended in a rather predictable Boss Fight at the end. S1 had a similar problem , but nowhere near as bad. By raising the stakes and the action the show really lost something. The season was full of characters just ambling around looking for ways to justify their inclusion. John Clare was an irrelevance, the waxwork plot line just a rerun of what happened in season 1, and by the end of it hes back to square one. This was all highlighted by the amount of scenes of just characters sitting and moaning about their lives, which were too numerous to be enjoyed. 

Of course S2 had some great moments, just enough to keep me going and watching the next episode, but I was hardly enthused by the end of the season. 

I disagree with all of this, especially the part about the deep, meaningful relationships. I think you and I have had this conversation about a other show: you seem to want very specific things from what you watch, without any room for deviation, at all. And once the deviation happens, you and that show are done. Like, if they have witches and not another monster, deal breaker; if they have a season long villain instead of indistinct, episodic turmoil, second deal breaker; etc.

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

8 hours ago, Kyoshi said:

I disagree with all of this, especially the part about the deep, meaningful relationships. I think you and I have had this conversation about a other show: you seem to want very specific things from what you watch, without any room for deviation, at all. And once the deviation happens, you and that show are done. Like, if they have witches and not another monster, deal breaker; if they have a season long villain instead of indistinct, episodic turmoil, second deal breaker; etc.

I can't remember what the other show was, possibly Stranger things, but I guess its a similar case. Both shows I like but my disappointment comes from them being on the cusp of being great original show that really push the genre and do something clever and different to anything I've seen before, but eventually landing at a place which is pretty generic and tired, and nowhere near as brave as they could have been.

PD has had moments contained within that elevate it above your everyday tv. Mostly its Eva Greens performances, but there were sections or entire episodes of S1 I thought were mindblowingly good, this was a show they understood psychological terror, it was telling a story in a new interesting way. The standalone episode of Eva Green in S1 was one of the best hours of TV I've ever seen. Unfortunately the show ruined that with its weak S1 ending and lame vampires. 

S2 also had great moments, although I felt they were much fewer, the doll reveal for instance. And it had far more moments that revealed its trashy roots, the ending, the witches etc. 

So my criticism is in some cases about what I wanted the show to be, but only because I want the show to be as good as it has hinted it can be, rather than just an above average bit of fun. 

Same with Stranger Things, it has a lot going for it and I enjoyed it, but it did a number of pretty dumb things and essentially turned itself into a pretty bland monster movie. It also hinted at being something much better than it was, and thats where the disappointment lies.

[HexMachina]

"Trashy roots" like 19th century gothic literature?

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

31 minutes ago, HelenaExMachina said:

"Trashy roots" like 19th century gothic literature?

Yes exactly, which is why I said that. 

My point being that the show was at times trying to do something more than just create trashy fluff for the masses, but then went back to doing it, which I find a shame