Discussing Sansa XXV: Who let the dogs out...

[TheKitttenGuard]

46 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Then why didn't he know it was a trap that Sansa planned for him, if we keep to your logic?

There is no way to make the North plot work or be sensible.  How did a giant army get to the North and nobody knows about it?  How did LF know exactly when to time his arrival?  Why did Sansa berate Jon for not having enough men, when she had those men in her pocket?  Why is the North more loyal to Ramsay than the Starks?  Why why why.  

Even Show Ramsay is not a psychic.  The idea that planning with knowledge and coordination of the Vale army would have tipped Ramsay is just an escuse for the show not caring about the plot any more.  

Ramsey is going against Jon and thinking of Jon. Sansa is of no thought to him for she is not an opposing commander. He thinks all Sansa has is Jon and nothing hints otherwise.

Ramsey is a Mary Sue, right?  Ramsey has been one step ahead, never fell for a trap, and constantly set traps people fell into to.  The only times he got rattle is when he does not expect something like Walda's pregnancy or when Sansa and Theon escaped.  This is the character, and you are stating he will now for a planned trap when he never did.

If you accept you cannot plan to trap Ramsey then the way to trap is for it to be unplanned.  

 

[Cas Stark]

I give people credit for liking the show enough to try and ascribe logical motivations for what happens.

But, the truth is, the plot drives the characters actions, there is not any internal consistency or logic.  Characters are smart or dumb as the plot demands.  They show contradictory motivations, they know things or don't know them as the plot demands.  Ramsay is an invincible military genius until it's time to kill him, then he's stupid.  Sansa dumb and victimized or empowered solely based on what the show wants to happen.  There is no progression.  Looking for answer to why things happen is a fool's errand.  They happen because Dan and Dave want it that way.

[tormund's beard]

17 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

I give people credit for liking the show enough to try and ascribe logical motivations for what happens.

But, the truth is, the plot drives the characters actions, there is not any internal consistency or logic.  Characters are smart or dumb as the plot demands.  They show contradictory motivations, they know things or don't know them as the plot demands.  Ramsay is an invincible military genius until it's time to kill him, then he's stupid.  Sansa dumb and victimized or empowered solely based on what the show wants to happen.  There is no progression.  Looking for answer to why things happen is a fool's errand.  They happen because Dan and Dave want it that way.

the sad truth, a show with half the budget and the same level of writing would be a huge pile of crap.

[Littlefinger of the Hand]

There is no tactical or strategic plan in Sansa's head. The knights of Vale won easily not because of the brilliance of Sansa's mind or because of the sacrifice of Jon's army. They won because they were the KNIGHTS OF THE VALE. They were alive, leading the elite of the Vale's men. Vale has a  fresh army with no casualties. Their army is full of its officers, commanders and heroes. The only solid power in Westeros. A Westeros where ALL lords are already using the second- grade selection of men in their armies since the best is dead. They even have lost the majority of knights, the equal of officers. 

Imagine the Germans to had to fight a new war in 1950. They couldn't. They had lost a few million of their youth, and all the talented officers were executed or imprisoned.

Boltons actually are strong in the North because their army wasn't butchered in the red wedding. All the other Northern Lords use in their armies, men who weren't fit to join the army in the first place when Robb took arms against the crown. It takes many years or a fee generations to replenish your lost lives. 

 

All that Sansa actually did, was to weaken her brother and the North in a point where Littlefinger is actually the lord kf the game.

 

did she do this in purpose or by accident?

Is she evil or stupid?

Time will tell. In any case she became once more a liability for her House and a pawn in someone's (LF) hands.

 

 

[Karmarni]

5 hours ago, OldGimletEye said:

Yes, the plot does make Sansa look like a back stabber. And then there was all that goddamned smirking at the battle, which I found very off putting, as if Sansa thinks war and battle are some kind of damn game.

And unfortunately it has spawned a slew of "Sansa will turn evil" theories.

None of this may have been D & D's intention. And it probably wasn't. We are probably supposed to like Sansa after this episode. But, the problem here is the way things were written, its hard to like Sansa here.

As a viewer, I don't want to sit here and try to guess at what D & D's actual intention are. The plot should align with D & D's intentions for the character.

I hope the characterizaton of Sansa improves like real fast.

It's kind of like what happened to Brienne, when Brienne told some bullshit to Sansa about Arya. It probably wasn't meant to make Brienne look bad. But it did because it made her look both dishonest and patronizing.

As a viewer, I shouldn't have to continually say,"well I didn't really like that, but I know what D & D really meant here."

^^ This, absolutely. And the bold, that's my thinking too. They should SHOW what is happening and we should not have to read into the story based on adding book information, or outside 'dreamed up' 'I'm sure in a scene we didn't see, X & Y & Z happened, so then the character's actions make sense.'

I'm certain that the showrunners are still using Sansa as a plot tool. She is moved about and characterized at will based on where they need her.

[Jasta11]

2 hours ago, Future Null Infinity said:

she doesn't trust Jon too much to give him such information, I mean, they weren't friends in winterfell and she didn't see him in years, but LF, she lived with him in KL (and even that the situation didn't need trust, he said to her that she can call him when she needs help), you can't put 2 persons with each other and expect full 100% trust from the first moment (especially Sansa, she can't trust people too easy anymore)

 

That's a poor excuse. Jon is marching into a very, very uncertain battle because he's desperate. He clearly tells her he needs more men, yet she keeps her mouth shut about the Knights of the Vale. This is information Jon needs to know. It completely changes the game. Sansa is in with Jon now, he's the only one who has a chance in hell of rallying the North to her side, she needs to trust him. 

It's also highly hypocritical of Sansa to berate Jon about not being trusted with a say in the war council (despite the fact that she was plainly there) but fail tocommunicate vital information to Jon. Trust is a two-way street. You can't withold important secrets from someone and then act angry when they don't defer to your authority, especially when Sansa herself admits she knows nothing of warfare.

If I were Jon, you bet I would be furious at Sansa. Sure, things worked out well in the end, but that's by mere chance. Jon could have died a hundred times and his army was minutes away from being annihilated before Sansa showed up, smirks and all. And Jon still lost hundreds of soldiers, soldiers that he needs in the war to come.

Jon dropped everything and risks life and limb to help Sansa win back her seat. The very least she could do is not play the secret game with him.

[Karmarni]

42 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

I give people credit for liking the show enough to try and ascribe logical motivations for what happens.

But, the truth is, the plot drives the characters actions, there is not any internal consistency or logic.  Characters are smart or dumb as the plot demands.  They show contradictory motivations, they know things or don't know them as the plot demands.  Ramsay is an invincible military genius until it's time to kill him, then he's stupid.  Sansa dumb and victimized or empowered solely based on what the show wants to happen.  There is no progression.  Looking for answer to why things happen is a fool's errand.  They happen because Dan and Dave want it that way.

Agree, much better said than my previous post!

It bothers me immensely though. Because I really like Sansa. And I don't see much of the character in this woman on the show anymore.

 

[Maid So Fair]

6 hours ago, Future Null Infinity said:

You are right, the show is oversimplifying everything to make all people understand the story, as an ordinary show viewer I also saw that, there is no build-up anymore in the show, they are accelerating the story and jump from an event to another without build-up, they want to get to the end of the series as soon as possible

I wouldn't say it's just oversimplifying - it's the lack of consistency. Sansa in the show seems to pick a personality on a fortune wheel every time she appears on screen. This was especially apparent last season, but season 6 as well. One moment she's running to Jon because he's the only person who can be trusted to protect her unconditionally, the next she's withholding information. One moment she's wants to die while there's still something of her left, the next she's reluctant to cross a freezing river because 'she might die'. She has an epic moment where she tells LF off and next thing we know she's petitioning him for help. She insists they have to take WF back for Rickon then dismisses him as a dead man walking. She acts like a dim witted idiot and the next scene has her masterminding the Northern plot. What are we supposed to makes of this character?

One reviewer called her Schroedingers Sansa - she could be incompetent and naive or evil and manipulative and there's no way to tell which one it's meant to be. Or maybe we're meant to think she's a badass now and D&D just can't write character arcs.

 

[Future Null Infinity]

25 minutes ago, Jasta11 said:

That's a poor excuse

it's not an excuse, I don't excuse story or writers,  it's an opinion why there is a mistrust, and as you said any mistrust will inevitably have a very nasty consequences

[Mladen]

Interesting article about the smirk at the end of the episode. 

[hallam]

On 6/20/2016 at 2:30 PM, Ethan_Kanin said:

The way the writers killed Ramsay was horrible in my oppinion. Sansa killed Ramsay in a horrible and cruel way and everyone is raving about how empowered she now is. If they really wanted to empower here they would have her judge Ramsay and execute him by sword herself, like a true Stark would have done. There is nothing empowering about being as cruel as the villains are, it's just stooping to their level. 

At least like this everyone is soooooo happy about karma for Ramsay...

Remember when Ramsay raped her?

Sansa has been changed by her experiences. She isn't incapable of compassion etc. she does forgive Theon. But she has also become callous, she is no longer the naive fairytale princess who went down to kings landing.

Roose predicted Ramsays end, he behaved like a dog, he was treated like one. He didn't deserve an honorable death. In the end he suffered the death he had threatened for Jon.

On 6/20/2016 at 2:49 PM, Ethan_Kanin said:

Yes and that shows how little D&D actually understand the characters in their own show. When I saw him looking at Sansa and stopping I thought it was because he realized that beating someone to death would not be something an honourable Stark would do. That would have fit his character. Him basically giving Sansa someone to torture is not something that Jon "wants-to-be-Ned-Stark" Snow would ever do.

Jon surrenders the kill to Sansa because she is the legal Queen in the North and mistress of Winterfell. It isn't his justice to give. Jon has as much right, Rickon is his brother too. But Sansa has the authority. The point of who passes the sentence swings the sword is not that the only mode of execution is beheading. Other forms of execution are allowed, Jon's murderers are hung. The point is that the judge is the executioner and that is what Sansa does.

[Chib]

2 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

I give people credit for liking the show enough to try and ascribe logical motivations for what happens.

But, the truth is, the plot drives the characters actions, there is not any internal consistency or logic.  Characters are smart or dumb as the plot demands.  They show contradictory motivations, they know things or don't know them as the plot demands.  Ramsay is an invincible military genius until it's time to kill him, then he's stupid.  Sansa dumb and victimized or empowered solely based on what the show wants to happen.  There is no progression.  Looking for answer to why things happen is a fool's errand.  They happen because Dan and Dave want it that way.

 

lol the more I think about it the more I am puzzled by how much inconsistent the characters are potrayed. 

[Chib]

1 hour ago, Maid So Fair said:

I wouldn't say it's just oversimplifying - it's the lack of consistency. Sansa in the show seems to pick a personality on a fortune wheel every time she appears on screen. This was especially apparent last season, but season 6 as well. One moment she's running to Jon because he's the only person who can be trusted to protect her unconditionally, the next she's withholding information. One moment she's wants to die while there's still something of her left, the next she's reluctant to cross a freezing river because 'she might die'. She has an epic moment where she tells LF off and next thing we know she's petitioning him for help. She insists they have to take WF back for Rickon then dismisses him as a dead man walking. She acts like a dim witted idiot and the next scene has her masterminding the Northern plot. What are we supposed to makes of this character?

One reviewer called her Schroedingers Sansa - she could be incompetent and naive or evil and manipulative and there's no way to tell which one it's meant to be. Or maybe we're meant to think she's a Boss Ass Bitch and D&D just can't write character arcs.

3

let's not forget the inconsistency of other characters as well. LP, Jon, Tyrion and so on... lol I am like: face palm with all the twist

[Maid So Fair]

1 hour ago, Chib said:

let's not forget the inconsistency of other characters as well. LP, Jon, Tyrion and so on... lol I am like: face palm with all the twist

Very true, though I must say that Sanaa is a particularly egrerious example. Other characters tend to be OOC in more consistent ways.

[Future Null Infinity]

3 hours ago, Maid So Fair said:

I wouldn't say it's just oversimplifying - it's the lack of consistency. Sansa in the show seems to pick a personality on a fortune wheel every time she appears on screen. This was especially apparent last season, but season 6 as well. One moment she's running to Jon because he's the only person who can be trusted to protect her unconditionally, the next she's withholding information. One moment she's wants to die while there's still something of her left, the next she's reluctant to cross a freezing river because 'she might die'. She has an epic moment where she tells LF off and next thing we know she's petitioning him for help. She insists they have to take WF back for Rickon then dismisses him as a dead man walking. She acts like a dim witted idiot and the next scene has her masterminding the Northern plot. What are we supposed to makes of this character?

One reviewer called her Schroedingers Sansa - she could be incompetent and naive or evil and manipulative and there's no way to tell which one it's meant to be. Or maybe we're meant to think she's a Boss Ass Bitch and D&D just can't write character arcs.

 

many characters of the show are like that, the plot give them the right personality depending on the situation that they are in it, but I think that the show doesn't care too much about the characters' personalities, I can tell with confidence that Jon and Daenerys personalities didn't change since episode 1 of season 1 but I can tell also that for Jaime and Sansa, the change is very clear despite some inconsistencies

[ununsullied]

I'm one of those unsullied non book readers (well I have read 1.5 books thus far) I was totally pissed at season 5 as the storyline was poor. Season 6 started better for me… until the Hodor episode which I found appalling. I hated the white walkers sudden reveal, and I mean very sudden. Hated it. And the 'Hold the Door' NAH poor blindsiding for shite storytelling

But this episode 9, and Sansa, well it all seemed totally credible to me ( I would have preferred her not to be Ramsay's bride in season 5 - but she was) I don't understand all the venom against Sansa. I think this episode was very well done, and more than this I felt that Sansa behaved in a way that was totally justifiable. I don't get all the pro Arya stuff when she is just as vindictive - but in a different way… to be fair Arya has not had one tenth of the pain and grief that Sansa has had

[Joseth Peake]

littlefinger clearly responded to her letter because she clearly rode in with him in cahoots. Nobody is talking about that maybe him being the savior of the North came with certain terms.  Such as, "we are fighting for you, lady Sansa, not your brother and definitely not the wildling b***ards." Perhaps Littlefinger only agreed to help if a) he could be the savior and hero and thus more power b ) he doesn't risk his men for wildlings, and c) some other reason we haven't been shown yet.  Primed with those conditions, it would compel Sansa to keep it from Jon, for if she spilled the beans LF would know and retreat.  In this scenario, one can view it as a tough-but-necessary choice Sansa had to make.

[Future Null Infinity]

47 minutes ago, ununsullied said:

But this episode 9, and Sansa, well it all seemed totally credible to me ( I would have preferred her not to be Ramsay's bride in season 5 - but she was) I don't understand all the venom against Sansa. I think this episode was very well done, and more than this I felt that Sansa behaved in a way that was totally justifiable. I don't get all the pro Arya stuff when she is just as vindictive - but in a different way… to be fair Arya has not had one tenth of the pain and grief that Sansa has had

The debate is only about why Sansa withhled the Vale's army information from Jon, which is something in the realm of the unknown and most likely will be addressed in the next episode and don't worry, it is known, there is a view about Sansa in the internet and it is legendary

[Future Null Infinity]

1 hour ago, Joseth Peake said:

littlefinger clearly responded to her letter because she clearly rode in with him in cahoots. Nobody is talking about that maybe him being the savior of the North came with certain terms.  Such as, "we are fighting for you, lady Sansa, not your brother and definitely not the wildling b***ards." Perhaps Littlefinger only agreed to help if a) he could be the savior and hero and thus more power b ) he doesn't risk his men for wildlings, and c) some other reason we haven't been shown yet.  Primed with those conditions, it would compel Sansa to keep it from Jon, for if she spilled the beans LF would know and retreat.  In this scenario, one can view it as a tough-but-necessary choice Sansa had to make.

I think it's not shown yet but Baelish actor (Aidan Gillen) gave some hints about why LF will come to help Sansa :

http://www.ew.com/article/2016/05/11/game-thrones-littlefinger

"there’s a level of atonement in relation to Sansa and my misjudgment of Ramsay Bolton. A lot of what I’m up to is atonement and really trying to align myself the right people"

it's clear that LittelFinger will not ask for reward, it was an act for redemption

[throney]

My problem with the show too much happens off screen. The audience is left to fill in the blanks, hence people coming to different conclusions to character motivation. If it weren’t for cast and showrunners’ interviews my interpretation of a scene would be completely different. It’s very disappointing of a show that is otherwise visually and musically very well crafted. It’s a shame that the writing is not up to the same standard.

The Sansa as a "hardened woman making a choice" is a prime example of this. While watching the scene it didn't even register to me that Sansa had any real agency in the decision.

So the way I see this playing out is that it will all be about Sansa's trust issues and Jon not listening to Sansa about falling for Ramsey's trap. And next week all will be forgiven after Jon and Sansa's conversation. The will trust each other implicitly and everything will be swept under the carpet never to be mentioned again.