Which Season 6 events do you think are book events? (Spoilers)

[Wildling Queen]

(I've never started a topic before, so if I did it wrong, be nice!)

When "The Winds of Winter" couldn't be released before season six, GRRM made the following statement:

“'Given where we are, inevitably, there will be certain plot twists and reveals in season six of ‘Game of Thrones’ that have not yet happened in the books,' Martin said. 

Book readers shouldn’t totally freak out, though. At this point, the show has diverted so much from the books that a lot of the perceived twists probably won’t even happen in the books, Martin said. And many characters who are dead in the show still have significant stories coming in his novels."

Which scenes/storylines/events from season 6 do you think will definitely be in "The Winds of Winter?"

Obvious ones: Jon lives, Hodor dies, The Faith will gain power through Tommen.

What else?

[Lady Lyanna Mormont]

4 hours ago, Wildling Queen said:

Obvious ones: Jon lives, Hodor dies, The Faith will gain power through Tommen.

I highly doubt that, he's like 9 years old in the books.
But I agree about Jon, hope that Hodor lives actually.

* I think Dany will somehow get the Khalasar to join her and make an alliance with Victarion (as she's doing with Yara and Theon).
* Arya will leave the FM, not sure if she kills the Waif because she doesn't seem to have a beef with her like in the show.
* I can see Jon trying to retrieve WF and killing Ramsay and Roose in the process. I guess Walda has to die too or at least miscarry because the Bolton lineage has to be extinct. Maybe Jon and the Wildlings come to Stannis rescue like LF and the Vale did.
* I don't see Stannis surviving either. I just hope he gets a better death at least in the Battle with the Others.

Spoiler

* Cersei will burn KL/Sept and Tommen will be a casualty. But it seems on the show, he kills himself.

 

[Masha]

Jon lives, Hodor's name is revealed at the same time he dies, CotF reveal, Hound lives, Arya leaves Braavos and quits FM, Dany takes control of Dothraki and returns to Maureen

Cersei burns KL/Sept, Tommen dies (not going to be controlled by HS)

Doran dies

 

[Rise]

16 minutes ago, Masha said:

Jon lives, Hodor's name is revealed at the same time he dies, CotF reveal, Hound lives, Arya leaves Braavos and quits FM, Dany takes control of Dothraki and returns to Maureen

Cersei burns KL/Sept, Tommen dies (not going to be controlled by HS)

Doran dies

 

Hodor name is told by old Nan either GoT or CoK.

Hound is revealed to be alive.

[Wildling Queen]

5 hours ago, Lady Lyanna Mormont said:

I highly doubt that, he's like 9 years old in the books.

 

True, but Margaery seems to have a lot of influence over him.

And I'd love for Hodor to live, too, but something tells me that whole storyline about how he became Hodor is way too much of a reach for the show to make if it's not something that came from the books. I hope I'm wrong about that!

[Lord Varys]

After dragging through the episodes this night I've to say pretty much no plot line from this season should be expected in TWoW.

There might be some resemblance here and there, like with the Hodor thing and other revelations in Bran's plot as well as the general outline of Dany's plot (taking over the Dothraki and returning to Slaver's Bay).

However, everything else is either invented stuff (like the whole KL plot, really), or AFfC/ADwD material.

TWoW will have

- a KL plot that actually involves a trial-by-combat and continues the plot where it was left of after the Epilogue of the last book

- Davos and Rickon on Skagos

- a resurrection of Jon Snow that is actual a magical event of significance and not the worst and most ridiculous scene in this entire show

- a convoluted series of battles near and at Winterfell involving Stannis and the Boltons

- Sansa still in the Vale

- Prince Aegon conquering the Iron Throne

- Euron continuing his campaign

- Samwell at Oldtown interacting with the people there

- lots of battles at Meereen that might actually resolve the dragonrider question

The show pretty much had none of that at all.

[GeorgeIAF]

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

After dragging through the episodes this night I've to say pretty much no plot line from this season should be expected in TWoW.

There might be some resemblance here and there, like with the Hodor thing and other revelations in Bran's plot as well as the general outline of Dany's plot (taking over the Dothraki and returning to Slaver's Bay).

However, everything else is either invented stuff (like the whole KL plot, really), or AFfC/ADwD material.

TWoW will have

- a KL plot that actually involves a trial-by-combat and continues the plot where it was left of after the Epilogue of the last book

- Davos and Rickon on Skagos

- a resurrection of Jon Snow that is actual a magical event of significance and not the worst and most ridiculous scene in this entire show

- a convoluted series of battles near and at Winterfell involving Stannis and the Boltons

- Sansa still in the Vale

- Prince Aegon conquering the Iron Throne

- Euron continuing his campaign

- Samwell at Oldtown interacting with the people there

- lots of battles at Meereen that might actually resolve the dragonrider question

The show pretty much had none of that at all.

It's nice if you really think that, i'm close to saying delusional but there goes nothing. 

Jon Snow going after the Boltons with the Wildlings and help of other Northern Houses and Stannis getting trashed by Ramsay it's almost nailed on to happen in the books. Also Ramsay killing Roose.

Also Sansa going to Winterfell with the Vale army is strongly hinted at in the last chapter extract from TWoW.

Dany's taking of the Khalasar and her sacking of Meereen (after the masters attack it) will also happen in the books, the dragonrider question will surely NOT be solved.

Jaime's taking of the Riverrun will also happen in the books.

Arya getting back to Westeros is nailed on to be in the books.

Bran going out of the Cave and back to the Wall is also a huge possibility.

Cersei going mad and burning down KL, Tommen and Myrcella biting the dust, will also be events that will happen in the books.

Samwell going to Oldtown is almost certain to happen.

What else do you want ? Go back to the nitpicking thread where you belong, here is the place of people who actually enjoy both the show and the books, with their good and bad sides. You people just go on and on and on bashing on the show, but you're the type who will hold on going to the toilet to avoid missing any second of it. A strange lot you are.

Don't hold your breath for fAegon to conquer the IT.

[JonSnowed]

Yes there is some serious denial going on by some, remember D&D know what happens in Winds, we don't. The broad strokes will be the same, there will be some changes but it's clear there is a fair amount of stuff from Winds unless you are in complete denial.

 

Jon ressurection

Dany gaining control of the Dothraki and returning to Meereen.

Probably the COTF reveal and Hodor.

The Battle for Winterfell and Sansa coming North with the Vale.

The Faith will likely be similar too.

 

Some stuff though is clearly not happening like Theon/Yara in Mereen, the Sandsnakes stuff (well maybe Doran will die).

[Survivor92]

I don't think Ramsay killing Roose will happen in the books. Remember, Ramsay died in the last episode. So, if GRRM told D&D that the Boltons would eventually be annihilated, it doesn't really matter whether it's Ramsay or Roose who dies at the end. I think D&D only put Ramsay in power because he was their Villain Sue and somehow they seemed to really like the character. That's why they twisted and turned everything to make Ramsay kill Roose with no consequences even.

The same is probably true for many other events. Maybe GRRM told D&D that Stannis will eventually die and Shireen is burned. However, in the books Shireen could be burned at the Wall by Melisandre and Stannis could die despite conquering Winterfell (unlucky arrow? Great Northern Conspiracy?). I definitely don't believe Stannis will be defeated as easily in the books as on the show. I also think Jon's resurrection will drag out much longer and will maybe be linked to Shireen's death.

Hodor's death could be the same in the books but it would be portrayed differently. I highly doubt there will be a cave with a convenient back door that Hodor will hold to give Bran barely a minute of extra time to escape (really, in the show, it would have been more beneficial to Bran if Hodor had carried him and ran off). Hell, "hold the door" could even be the door to the tunnel that leads under the Wall, which would make a lot more sense. And Hodor would actually be crucial in the books to Bran's survival and give him a lot of extra time, I suspect.

Theon/Yara in the show are a result of giving Stannis' plot to Jon and D&D avoiding the Jon/Theon interaction. So that's why Theon/Yara replace Victarion. I think the Vale army in the book would sooner go to Riverrun or the Twins rather than Winterfell. GRRM wouldn't just make them teleport past Moat Coalin.

[Lord Varys]

3 hours ago, GeorgeIAF said:

It's nice if you really think that, i'm close to saying delusional but there goes nothing. 

Jon Snow going after the Boltons with the Wildlings and help of other Northern Houses and Stannis getting trashed by Ramsay it's almost nailed on to happen in the books. Also Ramsay killing Roose.

No, because this Ramsay character isn't the same as the Ramsay in the books. The Ramsay in the books isn't all that important. Nobody cares about him, really. Not to mention that in the books there is no crappy 'a lot of Northern lords are following Ramsay' plot. There is already dissent and plotting among the lords at Winterfell. The Manderlys will defect, and possibly take a lot of lords with them, the Umbers might plan betrayal, too, and the way things are set up even Lady Dustin would never follow Ramsay if he was Lord Bolton.

Even if Stannis would be killed soon, pretty much nobody in the North would follow Ramsay, especially not now since he has lost his 'Arya Stark'.

3 hours ago, GeorgeIAF said:

Also Sansa going to Winterfell with the Vale army is strongly hinted at in the last chapter extract from TWoW.

No, it isn't. That was back in her last AFfC chapter. In the TWoW chapter there is no trace of that. 

3 hours ago, GeorgeIAF said:

Dany's taking of the Khalasar and her sacking of Meereen (after the masters attack it) will also happen in the books, the dragonrider question will surely NOT be solved.

That makes little sense. Nobody needs Dany's army at Meereen right now, because the people there can take care of themselves. She might show up in time to deal with the Volantenes. And I guess you have read the books and remember the fact that Victarion Greyjoy is going to sound that huge magical dragon horn during the coming battle, right? Don't you think that will have some sort of effect relevant to the plot?

3 hours ago, GeorgeIAF said:

Jaime's taking of the Riverrun will also happen in the books.

That already happened. But not in TWoW.

3 hours ago, GeorgeIAF said:

Arya getting back to Westeros is nailed on to be in the books.

Could be. Or not. The show certainly will spare as us Arya rediscovering her humanity while interacting with a stupid actress. Nor will there be a lot of running around and fighting with the Waif.

3 hours ago, GeorgeIAF said:

Bran going out of the Cave and back to the Wall is also a huge possibility.

It is a possibility but not one that I'm buying. The idea that Bran could go anywhere without the Others catching and killing him is, frankly, ridiculous in a realistic setting. As is the idea that he and Meera could survive in the snows of winter.

3 hours ago, GeorgeIAF said:

Cersei going mad and burning down KL, Tommen and Myrcella biting the dust, will also be events that will happen in the books.

I don't buy the former, and while the second will happen it will have no similarities with the show. The show is telling a completely new story there. Margaery, Olenna, Loras, Tommen, Kevan, etc. are all completely different characters who are doing different things. Even the High Septon is.

3 hours ago, GeorgeIAF said:

Samwell going to Oldtown is almost certain to happen.

Not in the show as of yet it seems.

3 hours ago, GeorgeIAF said:

What else do you want ? Go back to the nitpicking thread where you belong, here is the place of people who actually enjoy both the show and the books, with their good and bad sides. You people just go on and on and on bashing on the show, but you're the type who will hold on going to the toilet to avoid missing any second of it. A strange lot you are.

Last I looked I could still post wherever I wanted, thank you very much.

3 hours ago, GeorgeIAF said:

Don't hold your breath for fAegon to conquer the IT.

Yeah, right. And next you're going to say this is a faithful adaptation of ASoIaF?

23 minutes ago, JonSnowed said:

Jon ressurection

Well, yeah, but not in this completely fucked up way.

23 minutes ago, JonSnowed said:

Dany gaining control of the Dothraki and returning to Meereen.

Sure, but that isn't really a very detailed plot point, no?

23 minutes ago, JonSnowed said:

The Battle for Winterfell and Sansa coming North with the Vale.

Definitely not.

23 minutes ago, JonSnowed said:

The Faith will likely be similar too.

Certainly not, because the books are telling a completely different story there.

2 minutes ago, Survivor92 said:

I don't think Ramsay killing Roose will happen in the books. Remember, Ramsay died in the last episode. So, if GRRM told D&D that the Boltons would eventually be annihilated, it doesn't really matter whether it's Ramsay or Roose who dies at the end. I think D&D only put Ramsay in power because he was their Villain Sue and somehow they seemed to really like the character. That's why they twisted and turned everything to make Ramsay kill Roose with no consequences even.

Ramsay is a completely different character in the show. The show has him as a smart sadistic psychopath who actually understands how to manipulate people and play with their minds. The Ramsay in the books is nothing like that. He broke Theon with brute force and not some elaborate mind game first pretending to be his friend and stuff. Not to mention that book Ramsay has clearly no way of establishing personal loyalties of any sort (being very evident when Roose comments on the men Ramsay thinks are 'his').

The idea that this guy could murder his father and successfully take his place is ridiculous in the books. Should Roose die the Bolton problem would quickly resolve itself via desertion/betrayal. Only a tiny fraction of the Northmen at Winterfell would fight for Ramsay, if anyone at all.

The show wanted to make a big thing out of this battle of the bastards topic but this isn't necessarily George's plan at all. Keep in mind that it is Theon who is warning Stannis of Ramsay the way Sansa tried to warn Jon in the show. But while TV Sansa has a strong point there book Theon is just shitting his pants there. Ramsay isn't a trained leader or accomplished military commander. He is just a brute. The Clayton Suggs of the books is most likely a more dangerous man than book Ramsay (at least insofar as battles are concerned). If you are at his mercy then you fucked, sure, but the same goes for Qyburn, actually, and that guy isn't a fighter or commander, either.

If I had to guess then the show killed Stannis off as early as they did to set up action hero Kit Harrington against Ramsay and make this whole thing also a story about Sansa's revenge. That is not going to happen in the books, either.

2 minutes ago, Survivor92 said:

The same is probably true for many other events. Maybe GRRM told D&D that Stannis will eventually die and Shireen is burned. However, maybe in the books Shireen is burned at the Wall by Melisandre and Stannis dies despite conquering Winterfell. I definitely don't believe Stannis will be defeated as easily in the books as on the show. I also think Jon's resurrection will drag out much longer and will maybe be linked to Shireen's death.

George actually once commented on the Shireen situation back last year. And he said that he hadn't even written that scene yet. Unless we assume that Jon Snow's resurrection is going to be completely different from the show it is pretty much impossible that Mel will sacrifice Shireen to pull this off. The book will have Jon Snow's ghost in Ghost (pun obviously intended by the author years ago) - a plot that was completely dropped in the books. Melisandre will give Jon Snow's body the last rites according to the R'hllor religion and then she'll very much accidentally resurrect Jon's body. The fact that Jon is still spiritually around in his direwolf will be discovered by the skinchanger Borroq who is conveniently at the Wall right now, and then Jon will either quickly automatically return into his resurrected body or he'll accomplish this with some help.

If Shireen would be sacrificed to pull this off there is little reason why the show should have changed it the way they did or why Martin would not have yet written that scene last year. I mean, presumably Jon is not going to come back at the very end of TWoW and there is no reason to believe George likes Shireen so much as he did Robb and Catelyn, postponing to write their death scene only at the very end of the writing process. Shireen is a tertiary character in the books.

However, the whole setting in the books also suggests that it will be Stannis who is going to sacrifice his own daughter. That is the whole point of that plot line and the point the show (quite correctly) adapted. What the show sucked at was, of course, the motivation for this whole thing. Stannis is not going to burn his daughter to change the weather. The stakes must be much higher and he must be truly desperate (which he never was in the books, actually).

Mel, Val, or anybody else sacrificing Shireen wouldn't be that much of a tragedy, really. And this means that Stannis and his daughter will - for better or worse - actually be reunited in the books one way or another. You have to keep in mind that a lot plot lines that have been 'resolved' in the show are still there in the books. The Weeper might soon attack the Bridge of Skulls again, the Hardhome situation is still unresolved, and so on. There are a lot of other conflicts in the North the books will focus on that didn't even make it into the show. Most notably the resolution of Jon Snow's murder. The show wanted Jon (sort of) back in charge again, George might take a different route there and have violence escalate in Castle Black and at the Wall. Jon has sent a lot of his trusted friends and allies to castles far away and we have no clue how many men are in on Marsh's plot in the books.

2 minutes ago, Survivor92 said:

Theon/Yara in the show are a result of giving Stannis' plot to Jon and D&D avoiding the Jon/Theon interaction. So that's why Theon/Yara replace Victarion. I think the Vale army in the book would sooner go to Riverrun or the Twins rather than Winterfell. GRRM wouldn't just make them teleport past Moat Coalin.

Plot-wise, it makes no sense for Sansa and the Vale to go North in the middle of winter. Could be that this is done anyway, but I don't see how or when or for what reason. They cannot march to the Riverlands, by the way, because the mountains are already blocked thanks to snow. The only way they could go anywhere is via ship.

[YoungGriff89]

13 hours ago, Rise said:

Hodor name is told by old Nan either GoT or CoK.

I think they meant "hold the door."

[DJE]

5 hours ago, GeorgeIAF said:

It's nice if you really think that, i'm close to saying delusional but there goes nothing. 

Jon Snow going after the Boltons with the Wildlings and help of other Northern Houses and Stannis getting trashed by Ramsay it's almost nailed on to happen in the books. Also Ramsay killing Roose.

Also Sansa going to Winterfell with the Vale army is strongly hinted at in the last chapter extract from TWoW.

Dany's taking of the Khalasar and her sacking of Meereen (after the masters attack it) will also happen in the books, the dragonrider question will surely NOT be solved.

Jaime's taking of the Riverrun will also happen in the books.

Arya getting back to Westeros is nailed on to be in the books.

Bran going out of the Cave and back to the Wall is also a huge possibility.

Cersei going mad and burning down KL, Tommen and Myrcella biting the dust, will also be events that will happen in the books.

Samwell going to Oldtown is almost certain to happen.

What else do you want ? Go back to the nitpicking thread where you belong, here is the place of people who actually enjoy both the show and the books, with their good and bad sides. You people just go on and on and on bashing on the show, but you're the type who will hold on going to the toilet to avoid missing any second of it. A strange lot you are.

Don't hold your breath for fAegon to conquer the IT.

Right on! I couldn't agree more! Although, Jaime already took Riverrun in the book, essentailly the same way it went down in the show. The people who bash the show religiously astound me, If I disliked something that much, I wouldn't even waste my time watching it. Great Post!

[DreadedNorwegian]

If this is a spoilers allowed topic then here is my guess:

Varys comes back from Mereen to kill Kevan and Pycelle, some shit happens to either Tommen or Cercei that makes her burn down at least part of Kings landing. Winter arrives (white bird), Dany FINALLY sails to westeros, we get a horrible Dorne scene just to rembember that they are still around, shit goes down in the north with white walkers and traitors and littelfinger, and just a bealk last scene showing the horros to come. The end.

[DreadedNorwegian]

THe death of Picelle and Kevan and the burniing of parts of kings landing by cercei the mad.

[Lady Lyanna Mormont]

12 hours ago, Wildling Queen said:

True, but Margaery seems to have a lot of influence over him.

And I'd love for Hodor to live, too, but something tells me that whole storyline about how he became Hodor is way too much of a reach for the show to make if it's not something that came from the books. I hope I'm wrong about that!

She does, but I don't think as much as show Margaery. I think the Faith started to get powerful after Cersei allowed them to have the army back.
I agree about Hodor, I could see something like that happening on the books but I just hope he makes it.

10 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

- Prince Aegon conquering the Iron Throne

I actually didn't think he could get that far but if Tommen is killed while on the IT, I can see Aegon being able to take over

1 hour ago, DreadedNorwegian said:

If this is a spoilers allowed topic then here is my guess:

Varys comes back from Mereen to kill Kevan and Pycelle, some shit happens to either Tommen or Cercei that makes her burn down at least part of Kings landing. Winter arrives (white bird), Dany FINALLY sails to westeros, we get a horrible Dorne scene just to rembember that they are still around, shit goes down in the north with white walkers and traitors and littelfinger, and just a bealk last scene showing the horros to come. The end.

1 hour ago, DreadedNorwegian said:

THe death of Picelle and Kevan and the burniing of parts of kings landing by cercei the mad.

Actually, Varys killing Kevan and Pycelle has already happened on the books.

 

[Little Scribe of Naath]

- Melisandre being much, much older than she looks (But it will have plot relevance)

- Jon being resurrected by Melisandre

- Hodor reveal and death (GRRM has said this will happen in a different context from the show though)

- Bran leaving the cave (might only happen towards the end of TWOW)

- COTF as creators of WW reveal 

- Dany taking control of Dothraki 

- Possibly FAegon taking the IT and adopting the Faith (this has been given to Tommen on the show)

- Bolton's defeated (not sure if it will be Stannis or Jon who does it, my feeling is Stannis)

[GeorgeIAF]

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

No, because this Ramsay character isn't the same as the Ramsay in the books. The Ramsay in the books isn't all that important. Nobody cares about him, really. Not to mention that in the books there is no crappy 'a lot of Northern lords are following Ramsay' plot. There is already dissent and plotting among the lords at Winterfell. The Manderlys will defect, and possibly take a lot of lords with them, the Umbers might plan betrayal, too, and the way things are set up even Lady Dustin would never follow Ramsay if he was Lord Bolton.

Even if Stannis would be killed soon, pretty much nobody in the North would follow Ramsay, especially not now since he has lost his 'Arya Stark'.

No, it isn't. That was back in her last AFfC chapter. In the TWoW chapter there is no trace of that. 

That makes little sense. Nobody needs Dany's army at Meereen right now, because the people there can take care of themselves. She might show up in time to deal with the Volantenes. And I guess you have read the books and remember the fact that Victarion Greyjoy is going to sound that huge magical dragon horn during the coming battle, right? Don't you think that will have some sort of effect relevant to the plot?

That already happened. But not in TWoW.

Could be. Or not. The show certainly will spare as us Arya rediscovering her humanity while interacting with a stupid actress. Nor will there be a lot of running around and fighting with the Waif.

It is a possibility but not one that I'm buying. The idea that Bran could go anywhere without the Others catching and killing him is, frankly, ridiculous in a realistic setting. As is the idea that he and Meera could survive in the snows of winter.

I don't buy the former, and while the second will happen it will have no similarities with the show. The show is telling a completely new story there. Margaery, Olenna, Loras, Tommen, Kevan, etc. are all completely different characters who are doing different things. Even the High Septon is.

Not in the show as of yet it seems.

Last I looked I could still post wherever I wanted, thank you very much.

Yeah, right. And next you're going to say this is a faithful adaptation of ASoIaF?

Well, yeah, but not in this completely fucked up way.

Sure, but that isn't really a very detailed plot point, no?

Definitely not.

Certainly not, because the books are telling a completely different story there.

Ramsay is a completely different character in the show. The show has him as a smart sadistic psychopath who actually understands how to manipulate people and play with their minds. The Ramsay in the books is nothing like that. He broke Theon with brute force and not some elaborate mind game first pretending to be his friend and stuff. Not to mention that book Ramsay has clearly no way of establishing personal loyalties of any sort (being very evident when Roose comments on the men Ramsay thinks are 'his').

The idea that this guy could murder his father and successfully take his place is ridiculous in the books. Should Roose die the Bolton problem would quickly resolve itself via desertion/betrayal. Only a tiny fraction of the Northmen at Winterfell would fight for Ramsay, if anyone at all.

The show wanted to make a big thing out of this battle of the bastards topic but this isn't necessarily George's plan at all. Keep in mind that it is Theon who is warning Stannis of Ramsay the way Sansa tried to warn Jon in the show. But while TV Sansa has a strong point there book Theon is just shitting his pants there. Ramsay isn't a trained leader or accomplished military commander. He is just a brute. The Clayton Suggs of the books is most likely a more dangerous man than book Ramsay (at least insofar as battles are concerned). If you are at his mercy then you fucked, sure, but the same goes for Qyburn, actually, and that guy isn't a fighter or commander, either.

If I had to guess then the show killed Stannis off as early as they did to set up action hero Kit Harrington against Ramsay and make this whole thing also a story about Sansa's revenge. That is not going to happen in the books, either.

George actually once commented on the Shireen situation back last year. And he said that he hadn't even written that scene yet. Unless we assume that Jon Snow's resurrection is going to be completely different from the show it is pretty much impossible that Mel will sacrifice Shireen to pull this off. The book will have Jon Snow's ghost in Ghost (pun obviously intended by the author years ago) - a plot that was completely dropped in the books. Melisandre will give Jon Snow's body the last rites according to the R'hllor religion and then she'll very much accidentally resurrect Jon's body. The fact that Jon is still spiritually around in his direwolf will be discovered by the skinchanger Borroq who is conveniently at the Wall right now, and then Jon will either quickly automatically return into his resurrected body or he'll accomplish this with some help.

If Shireen would be sacrificed to pull this off there is little reason why the show should have changed it the way they did or why Martin would not have yet written that scene last year. I mean, presumably Jon is not going to come back at the very end of TWoW and there is no reason to believe George likes Shireen so much as he did Robb and Catelyn, postponing to write their death scene only at the very end of the writing process. Shireen is a tertiary character in the books.

However, the whole setting in the books also suggests that it will be Stannis who is going to sacrifice his own daughter. That is the whole point of that plot line and the point the show (quite correctly) adapted. What the show sucked at was, of course, the motivation for this whole thing. Stannis is not going to burn his daughter to change the weather. The stakes must be much higher and he must be truly desperate (which he never was in the books, actually).

Mel, Val, or anybody else sacrificing Shireen wouldn't be that much of a tragedy, really. And this means that Stannis and his daughter will - for better or worse - actually be reunited in the books one way or another. You have to keep in mind that a lot plot lines that have been 'resolved' in the show are still there in the books. The Weeper might soon attack the Bridge of Skulls again, the Hardhome situation is still unresolved, and so on. There are a lot of other conflicts in the North the books will focus on that didn't even make it into the show. Most notably the resolution of Jon Snow's murder. The show wanted Jon (sort of) back in charge again, George might take a different route there and have violence escalate in Castle Black and at the Wall. Jon has sent a lot of his trusted friends and allies to castles far away and we have no clue how many men are in on Marsh's plot in the books.

Plot-wise, it makes no sense for Sansa and the Vale to go North in the middle of winter. Could be that this is done anyway, but I don't see how or when or for what reason. They cannot march to the Riverlands, by the way, because the mountains are already blocked thanks to snow. The only way they could go anywhere is via ship.

Made a mistake about Jaime and Riverrun. It is a long time ago since i've read the books (damn you George for taking so long to release TWoW), but i was under the impression that it wasn't confirmed in the books that Riverrun was taken by the Lannisters. I now remember the Blackfish jumping into the water and escaping, sorry for that. 

But i tell you what, Sansa's and Tyrion's storylines from the TV-Show are more interesting than those in the books (hopefully their stories will pick up the pace). 

[bfin]

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

No, because this Ramsay character isn't the same as the Ramsay in the books. The Ramsay in the books isn't all that important. Nobody cares about him, really. Not to mention that in the books there is no crappy 'a lot of Northern lords are following Ramsay' plot. There is already dissent and plotting among the lords at Winterfell. The Manderlys will defect, and possibly take a lot of lords with them, the Umbers might plan betrayal, too, and the way things are set up even Lady Dustin would never follow Ramsay if he was Lord Bolton.

Even if Stannis would be killed soon, pretty much nobody in the North would follow Ramsay, especially not now since he has lost his 'Arya Stark'.

No, it isn't. That was back in her last AFfC chapter. In the TWoW chapter there is no trace of that. 

That makes little sense. Nobody needs Dany's army at Meereen right now, because the people there can take care of themselves. She might show up in time to deal with the Volantenes. And I guess you have read the books and remember the fact that Victarion Greyjoy is going to sound that huge magical dragon horn during the coming battle, right? Don't you think that will have some sort of effect relevant to the plot?

That already happened. But not in TWoW.

Could be. Or not. The show certainly will spare as us Arya rediscovering her humanity while interacting with a stupid actress. Nor will there be a lot of running around and fighting with the Waif.

It is a possibility but not one that I'm buying. The idea that Bran could go anywhere without the Others catching and killing him is, frankly, ridiculous in a realistic setting. As is the idea that he and Meera could survive in the snows of winter.

I don't buy the former, and while the second will happen it will have no similarities with the show. The show is telling a completely new story there. Margaery, Olenna, Loras, Tommen, Kevan, etc. are all completely different characters who are doing different things. Even the High Septon is.

Not in the show as of yet it seems.

Last I looked I could still post wherever I wanted, thank you very much.

Yeah, right. And next you're going to say this is a faithful adaptation of ASoIaF?

Well, yeah, but not in this completely fucked up way.

Sure, but that isn't really a very detailed plot point, no?

Definitely not.

Certainly not, because the books are telling a completely different story there.

Ramsay is a completely different character in the show. The show has him as a smart sadistic psychopath who actually understands how to manipulate people and play with their minds. The Ramsay in the books is nothing like that. He broke Theon with brute force and not some elaborate mind game first pretending to be his friend and stuff. Not to mention that book Ramsay has clearly no way of establishing personal loyalties of any sort (being very evident when Roose comments on the men Ramsay thinks are 'his').

The idea that this guy could murder his father and successfully take his place is ridiculous in the books. Should Roose die the Bolton problem would quickly resolve itself via desertion/betrayal. Only a tiny fraction of the Northmen at Winterfell would fight for Ramsay, if anyone at all.

The show wanted to make a big thing out of this battle of the bastards topic but this isn't necessarily George's plan at all. Keep in mind that it is Theon who is warning Stannis of Ramsay the way Sansa tried to warn Jon in the show. But while TV Sansa has a strong point there book Theon is just shitting his pants there. Ramsay isn't a trained leader or accomplished military commander. He is just a brute. The Clayton Suggs of the books is most likely a more dangerous man than book Ramsay (at least insofar as battles are concerned). If you are at his mercy then you fucked, sure, but the same goes for Qyburn, actually, and that guy isn't a fighter or commander, either.

If I had to guess then the show killed Stannis off as early as they did to set up action hero Kit Harrington against Ramsay and make this whole thing also a story about Sansa's revenge. That is not going to happen in the books, either.

George actually once commented on the Shireen situation back last year. And he said that he hadn't even written that scene yet. Unless we assume that Jon Snow's resurrection is going to be completely different from the show it is pretty much impossible that Mel will sacrifice Shireen to pull this off. The book will have Jon Snow's ghost in Ghost (pun obviously intended by the author years ago) - a plot that was completely dropped in the books. Melisandre will give Jon Snow's body the last rites according to the R'hllor religion and then she'll very much accidentally resurrect Jon's body. The fact that Jon is still spiritually around in his direwolf will be discovered by the skinchanger Borroq who is conveniently at the Wall right now, and then Jon will either quickly automatically return into his resurrected body or he'll accomplish this with some help.

If Shireen would be sacrificed to pull this off there is little reason why the show should have changed it the way they did or why Martin would not have yet written that scene last year. I mean, presumably Jon is not going to come back at the very end of TWoW and there is no reason to believe George likes Shireen so much as he did Robb and Catelyn, postponing to write their death scene only at the very end of the writing process. Shireen is a tertiary character in the books.

However, the whole setting in the books also suggests that it will be Stannis who is going to sacrifice his own daughter. That is the whole point of that plot line and the point the show (quite correctly) adapted. What the show sucked at was, of course, the motivation for this whole thing. Stannis is not going to burn his daughter to change the weather. The stakes must be much higher and he must be truly desperate (which he never was in the books, actually).

Mel, Val, or anybody else sacrificing Shireen wouldn't be that much of a tragedy, really. And this means that Stannis and his daughter will - for better or worse - actually be reunited in the books one way or another. You have to keep in mind that a lot plot lines that have been 'resolved' in the show are still there in the books. The Weeper might soon attack the Bridge of Skulls again, the Hardhome situation is still unresolved, and so on. There are a lot of other conflicts in the North the books will focus on that didn't even make it into the show. Most notably the resolution of Jon Snow's murder. The show wanted Jon (sort of) back in charge again, George might take a different route there and have violence escalate in Castle Black and at the Wall. Jon has sent a lot of his trusted friends and allies to castles far away and we have no clue how many men are in on Marsh's plot in the books.

Plot-wise, it makes no sense for Sansa and the Vale to go North in the middle of winter. Could be that this is done anyway, but I don't see how or when or for what reason. They cannot march to the Riverlands, by the way, because the mountains are already blocked thanks to snow. The only way they could go anywhere is via ship.

I guess in like 10-15 years you'll be able to let us know what happens. That's when the books come out, right? 

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

- Melisandre being much, much older than she looks (But it will have plot relevance)

Her wearing a glamor to change her appearance certainly might be the case. But the way glamors works in the books actually makes it very unlikely that Mel is a fat old hag with sagging breasts. Stannis (or anybody else) touching them would have felt the difference. Glamors are basically visually and auditory illusions not actual transformations.

1 hour ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

- Jon being resurrected by Melisandre

At least in part. There will only be a resurrection of his body. His spirit will be in Ghost and therefore not *really* have been dead. But they cut the whole second life for skinchangers thing from the show. If you ask me Jon's death and resurrection has no meaning in the show at all.

1 hour ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

- Hodor reveal and death (GRRM has said this will happen in a different context from the show though)

I can see that happening with Hodor and Meera somehow desperately trying to defend the Black Gate beneath the Wall from the Others. That would make a great scene in the books.

1 hour ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

- Bran leaving the cave (might only happen towards the end of TWOW)

Most likely not. Bran is no use as a traveling guy in the books. And realism forbids it that he is ever going to travel back to the Wall in the middle of winter. He barely got to the cave in autumn.

The show might combine Bran's and Rickon's book story in some fashion (considering that they killed Rickon in a way he is not possibly going to die in the books) using Bran for that. In the books Rickon certainly is going to be brought in as some sort of Stark pretender. Something that Bran might do in the show if he ever gets back south again.

1 hour ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

- COTF as creators of WW reveal

The details will be different and much more, well, detailed, but in essence that's very likely. Not sure about the dragonglass angle there, nor am I sure that all the Children were on board with the Others plan back then. In fact, if some faction of the Children created the Others then those people might still be around directing the Others rather some dark lord Night King guy (who doesn't exist in the books at all).

The idea that the Others would attack the Children, too, is also a little bit of a stretch I think. The Children would have been foolish to have made them in a way to turn against them and there are no hints that the Others can wightify dead Children.

1 hour ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

- Dany taking control of Dothraki

Yeah, but certainly not the way it was depicted in the show.

1 hour ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

- Possibly FAegon taking the IT and adopting the Faith (this has been given to Tommen on the show)

Nope. Aegon will be the poster boy of the sparrows, not their servant/tool. The High Septon in the books is much different from the guy in the show, and he is only giving his long-winded and boring speeches for two seasons now because the show has decided to pass the time with pointless conversation and plotting that leads to nowhere when they decided to cut the Aegon plot.

In the books the rise of the Faith and the fallout between the Lannisters and Tyrells is just a means to an end - Aegon's rise to the throne. That became apparent in ADwD. Aegon allying with the Faith will help (him) unite the Realm against Daenerys, though. The High Septon most certainly won't suffer an incest-born Queen Regnant on the Iron Throne who might not even follow the Seven.

The whole Faith puppet king story is a complete show invention spun from the idea that Tommen is actually a meek character. He is not. He is a pawn in the books, and nothing he says, does, or decrees matters because he is just an eight-year-old.

1 hour ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

- Bolton's defeated (not sure if it will be Stannis or Jon who does it, my feeling is Stannis)

I'd say the show wanted to give us this bastard confrontation the Pink Letter suggested in ADwD (right before the assassination). Thus they actually killed Stannis to make it this way while George's plans there might be completely different. Roose/Ramsay might even get away from Winterfell after they lose the battle but they will also lose the North in the process. In the end Stannis is doomed, of course, but he might still stick around for quite some time. Especially because of the whole Shireen thing.

2 hours ago, GeorgeIAF said:

But i tell you what, Sansa's and Tyrion's storylines from the TV-Show are more interesting than those in the books (hopefully their stories will pick up the pace). 

Nope, Ramsay raping and marrying Sansa wasn't particularly interesting. However, I must say I really enjoyed her revenge story this season on a 'fan fiction level'. Aside from the ridiculous 'I don't mention the troops I have' plot.

Tyrion trying to be funny is not much of a plot, either. Most of his scenes this season were a waste of time, really.

[dbunting]

5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

No, because this Ramsay character isn't the same as the Ramsay in the books. The Ramsay in the books isn't all that important. Nobody cares about him, really. Not to mention that in the books there is no crappy 'a lot of Northern lords are following Ramsay' plot. There is already dissent and plotting among the lords at Winterfell. The Manderlys will defect, and possibly take a lot of lords with them, the Umbers might plan betrayal, too, and the way things are set up even Lady Dustin would never follow Ramsay if he was Lord Bolton.

Even if Stannis would be killed soon, pretty much nobody in the North would follow Ramsay, especially not now since he has lost his 'Arya Stark'.

No, it isn't. That was back in her last AFfC chapter. In the TWoW chapter there is no trace of that. 

That makes little sense. Nobody needs Dany's army at Meereen right now, because the people there can take care of themselves. She might show up in time to deal with the Volantenes. And I guess you have read the books and remember the fact that Victarion Greyjoy is going to sound that huge magical dragon horn during the coming battle, right? Don't you think that will have some sort of effect relevant to the plot?

That already happened. But not in TWoW.

Could be. Or not. The show certainly will spare as us Arya rediscovering her humanity while interacting with a stupid actress. Nor will there be a lot of running around and fighting with the Waif.

It is a possibility but not one that I'm buying. The idea that Bran could go anywhere without the Others catching and killing him is, frankly, ridiculous in a realistic setting. As is the idea that he and Meera could survive in the snows of winter.

I don't buy the former, and while the second will happen it will have no similarities with the show. The show is telling a completely new story there. Margaery, Olenna, Loras, Tommen, Kevan, etc. are all completely different characters who are doing different things. Even the High Septon is.

Not in the show as of yet it seems.

Last I looked I could still post wherever I wanted, thank you very much.

Yeah, right. And next you're going to say this is a faithful adaptation of ASoIaF?

Well, yeah, but not in this completely fucked up way.

Sure, but that isn't really a very detailed plot point, no?

Definitely not.

Certainly not, because the books are telling a completely different story there.

Ramsay is a completely different character in the show. The show has him as a smart sadistic psychopath who actually understands how to manipulate people and play with their minds. The Ramsay in the books is nothing like that. He broke Theon with brute force and not some elaborate mind game first pretending to be his friend and stuff. Not to mention that book Ramsay has clearly no way of establishing personal loyalties of any sort (being very evident when Roose comments on the men Ramsay thinks are 'his').

The idea that this guy could murder his father and successfully take his place is ridiculous in the books. Should Roose die the Bolton problem would quickly resolve itself via desertion/betrayal. Only a tiny fraction of the Northmen at Winterfell would fight for Ramsay, if anyone at all.

The show wanted to make a big thing out of this battle of the bastards topic but this isn't necessarily George's plan at all. Keep in mind that it is Theon who is warning Stannis of Ramsay the way Sansa tried to warn Jon in the show. But while TV Sansa has a strong point there book Theon is just shitting his pants there. Ramsay isn't a trained leader or accomplished military commander. He is just a brute. The Clayton Suggs of the books is most likely a more dangerous man than book Ramsay (at least insofar as battles are concerned). If you are at his mercy then you fucked, sure, but the same goes for Qyburn, actually, and that guy isn't a fighter or commander, either.

If I had to guess then the show killed Stannis off as early as they did to set up action hero Kit Harrington against Ramsay and make this whole thing also a story about Sansa's revenge. That is not going to happen in the books, either.

George actually once commented on the Shireen situation back last year. And he said that he hadn't even written that scene yet. Unless we assume that Jon Snow's resurrection is going to be completely different from the show it is pretty much impossible that Mel will sacrifice Shireen to pull this off. The book will have Jon Snow's ghost in Ghost (pun obviously intended by the author years ago) - a plot that was completely dropped in the books. Melisandre will give Jon Snow's body the last rites according to the R'hllor religion and then she'll very much accidentally resurrect Jon's body. The fact that Jon is still spiritually around in his direwolf will be discovered by the skinchanger Borroq who is conveniently at the Wall right now, and then Jon will either quickly automatically return into his resurrected body or he'll accomplish this with some help.

If Shireen would be sacrificed to pull this off there is little reason why the show should have changed it the way they did or why Martin would not have yet written that scene last year. I mean, presumably Jon is not going to come back at the very end of TWoW and there is no reason to believe George likes Shireen so much as he did Robb and Catelyn, postponing to write their death scene only at the very end of the writing process. Shireen is a tertiary character in the books.

However, the whole setting in the books also suggests that it will be Stannis who is going to sacrifice his own daughter. That is the whole point of that plot line and the point the show (quite correctly) adapted. What the show sucked at was, of course, the motivation for this whole thing. Stannis is not going to burn his daughter to change the weather. The stakes must be much higher and he must be truly desperate (which he never was in the books, actually).

Mel, Val, or anybody else sacrificing Shireen wouldn't be that much of a tragedy, really. And this means that Stannis and his daughter will - for better or worse - actually be reunited in the books one way or another. You have to keep in mind that a lot plot lines that have been 'resolved' in the show are still there in the books. The Weeper might soon attack the Bridge of Skulls again, the Hardhome situation is still unresolved, and so on. There are a lot of other conflicts in the North the books will focus on that didn't even make it into the show. Most notably the resolution of Jon Snow's murder. The show wanted Jon (sort of) back in charge again, George might take a different route there and have violence escalate in Castle Black and at the Wall. Jon has sent a lot of his trusted friends and allies to castles far away and we have no clue how many men are in on Marsh's plot in the books.

Plot-wise, it makes no sense for Sansa and the Vale to go North in the middle of winter. Could be that this is done anyway, but I don't see how or when or for what reason. They cannot march to the Riverlands, by the way, because the mountains are already blocked thanks to snow. The only way they could go anywhere is via ship.

So basically everyone else's opinions and guesses are wrong and all of yours are right, cool.