Val is Jon’s true Queen. Part trois.

[Darkstream]

On 15/12/2016 at 11:27 AM, Lord Varys said:

Now it is getting laughable. You are trying to tell me that the wildlings were driven off to those lands they live in now by the First Men south of the Wall? There is no evidence for this. Those fools chose to remain in territory that was then and now land the Others could walk freely.

Talk about laughable. You are trying to tell me that the Wildlings are too stupid to realize that hey, I'm freezing my ass off? That this grain I tried planting in this frozen ground doesn't seem to be growing. That hey, all of these animated corpses killing off our people is bad for us. Puhleeze.    

Would you like to provide some evidence that "Those fools chose to remain in territory that was then and now land the Others could walk freely."

And yes, the quote by Ygritte that The Fattest Leech provided, and you referred to yourself, would suggest that the Wildlings were forced to retreat north and beyond the wall due to aggression from the South.

Quote

We know the Wall was built by combined effort of the First Men, the Children, and the giants, and nothing suggests that the wildlings weren't part of the First Men at that point.

Do we know this as an absolute fact? You are stating eight thousand year old legends and wive's Nan's tales as a certainty. The truth of the matter is, nobody really knows who built the Wall.

Quote

And just to inform you: Mance and his men attacked the Wall and the Watch, not the other way around.

And what were the conditions and motivations that preceded this attack on the Wall?

Quote

Well, then they should complain to their ancestors and ask them why the hell they did not move down on the right side of the Wall. That Wall wasn't built to keep other men out.

Try again, I'm sure you can come with an example even worse. We are talking about a pitiful band of warrior-monks. The Watch isn't Nazi Germany.

Well, "pitiful band of warrior-monks" would be your unfounded assessment of the Wildlings, and not very accurate in my opinion.

I never said the Watch is Nazi Germany, but the situation is the same. Why would the Wildlings send men to an organization that considers them to be the enemy, an inferior people, and hunts them down? 

Regardless of who is responsible for the enmity between the two, the situation is what it is, and it was a silly question for you to pose, as to why the Wildlings don't send men to the Watch.

ETA:

Quote

Well, then they should complain to their ancestors and ask them why the hell they did not move down on the right side of the Wall. That Wall wasn't built to keep other men out.

Well, then I suppose the Watch should stop using it to keep other men out.

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, Darkstream said:

Talk about laughable. You are trying to tell me that the Wildlings are too stupid to realize that hey, I'm freezing my ass off? That this grain I tried planting in this frozen ground doesn't seem to be growing. That hey, all of these animated corpses killing off our people is bad for us. Puhleeze.    

Would you like to provide some evidence that "Those fools chose to remain in territory that was then and now land the Others could walk freely."

Well, unless you assume that the Wall wasn't built to keep the Others out of the realms of men in case they ever came back we are certainly not on the same page. That's essentially confirmed.

Unless nobody sent the men living north of the Wall the memo that a huge wall out of ice was built to keep the Others they are responsible for not deciding to migrate down south of the Wall so that they can better defend the realms of men against the Others.

Don't you agree there?

Perhaps some of the ancestors of the present day wildlings only migrated back across the Wall while the Starks were subduing the North and ending the free raid-and-steal lifestyle there. Could very well be. But we don't know that. I'm inclined to believe at least some of the wildlings migrate up there before the Others even were a thing.

1 hour ago, Darkstream said:

And yes, the quote by Ygritte that The Fattest Leech provided, and you referred to yourself, would suggest that the Wildlings were forced to retreat north and beyond the wall due to aggression from the South.

Yeah, because Ygritte is an authority on the history of events stretching back thousands of years. She and some of her contemporaries seem to believe that the Wall was built to keep them out. But that doesn't make it so.

In effect, the NW and the Wall were an obstacle to wildling raids and wildling ambitions but that's another issue entirely.

1 hour ago, Darkstream said:

Do we know this as an absolute fact? You are stating eight thousand year old legends and wive's tales as a certainty. The truth of the matter is, nobody really knows who built the Wall.

The truth is that we have a pretty good picture who built the Wall. We also have a pretty good picture for what reason it was built. If you want to spin it in a way suggesting that it was built for another reason you have to ignore the Others and the wights as a major magical threat as well as explain the Night Gate and the magical effects of the Wall as a wight stopper.

1 hour ago, Darkstream said:

And what were the conditions and motivations that preceded this attack on the Wall?

Continuous attacks of the wildlings on the NW and the North for thousands of years?

Mance could have tried to negotiate with the Old Bear, Ned Stark, or even King Robert. He was even there at Winterfell, was he not? Why didn't he talk to them?

1 hour ago, Darkstream said:

Well, "pitiful band of warrior-monks" would be your unfounded assessment of the Wildlings, and not very accurate in my opinion.

It referred to the NW.

1 hour ago, Darkstream said:

I never said the Watch is Nazi Germany, but the situation is the same. Why would the Wildlings send men to an organization that considers them to be the enemy, an inferior people, and hunts them down? 

Because it was originally apparently an institution which was also protecting them. Assuming they are part of 'the realms of men'. If they were ever aware of that and in favor of that one should expect that they just as all the other realms of men (the Hundred Kingdoms south of the Wall) would have supported the NW.

And thinking about that the idea that the NW of all institutions - who essentially guards the realms of men from a Wall cutting the land in two - would also protect the men living in the territory of the Others is actually a stretch. I mean, that's the same as assuming that bunch of border guards should protect botch the border as well as people on both sides of the border. What would then be the point of the border?

1 hour ago, Darkstream said:

Regardless of who is responsible for the enmity between the two, the situation is what it is, and it was a silly question for you to pose, as to why the Wildlings don't send men to the Watch.

It is quite clear that the question is silly in the present. But the NW is a very ancient institution. If there had been wildlings serving among the black brothers centuries ago one assumes the situation would be much different today than it is now.

1 hour ago, Darkstream said:

ETA:

Well, then I suppose the Watch should stop using it to keep other men out.

Why should they? The wildlings actually are a threat to safety to Realm in modern days. If they allowed to freely raid and plunder in the North the Starks and the Iron Throne would quickly disband the NW.

[Blue-Eyed Wolf]

2 hours ago, Darkstream said:

Talk about laughable. You are trying to tell me that the Wildlings are too stupid to realize that hey, I'm freezing my ass off? That this grain I tried planting in this frozen ground doesn't seem to be growing. That hey, all of these animated corpses killing off our people is bad for us. Puhleeze.    

Would you like to provide some evidence that "Those fools chose to remain in territory that was then and now land the Others could walk freely."

And yes, the quote by Ygritte that The Fattest Leech provided, and you referred to yourself, would suggest that the Wildlings were forced to retreat north and beyond the wall due to aggression from the South.

 

 

 

 

 

I was just re-reading some of the World book again and this is precisely what happened to the Mountain Clans who are also considered wildlings by the realm.  The clans are descendants of First Men nobility in the Vale that did not bend the knee to the Andal conquerors.  Some First Men houses chose to bend the knee to House Arryn, gave tribute, and mingled their blood with the Andals and we see those houses surviving to the present:  Redforts, Hunters, Corbrays, Coldwaters, Royces, and Belmores.  As more Andals came and demand for more hospitable land grew, any First Men that resisted were quickly driven westward into the Mountains of the Moon.  They were fleeing aggression and forced into an existence of raiding for their own survival.  This whole history is even written with an obvious pro-southern, pro-Andal bias and even the "author," Maester Yandel, acknowledges that they raid because they were forced from the more hospitable land because they refused to submit to being conquered.  Those that did submit were "rewarded" by retaining many privileges of social rank and economic benefit.  So despite having a shared history and culture, the surviving First Men nobility see their own ancient kin in almost racist terms as if they have always been sub-human, brutal savages that just choose to eke out an existence because they are just violent and ignorant by nature.  With this historical precedence set with the wildlings in the Vale, I could see a very similar situation in the history between wildlings and the rest of the Northern realm as Andal influence would spread northward.  Andal customs like knighthood and the Seven are obviously rarely present in the North (I'm not suggesting they were conquered like in the Vale), but adopting some Andal technology like iron against the traditional bronze weapons would have advantages as First Men houses would fight among themselves much like original Vale houses would.  The fact that all First Men in the north originally spoke the Old Tongue and now it's only spoken by wildlings north of the Wall show there was a cultural divide and conquer going on.  Jon's initial impression on hearing the Old Tongue is that it's "harsh" and "clanging" and "coarse" -- the language of "savages" and distinct from the Common Tongue spoken by the supposed civilized world.  He does not think of it in any way as the language that was spoken by his own people long ago.  Those houses that submitted to Andal influence who were already dominating the whole south would have technological and economic advantages, even if they didn't adopt every Andal custom.  Add to the fact that though the Old Tongue has rune it does not have the advantage of written language to pass history directly from the ancient First Men to the present..   And according to Sam in his research on the Others:  

Quote

 The oldest histories we have were written after the Andals came to Westeros. The First Men only left us runes on rocks, so everything we think we know about the Age of Heroes and the Dawn Age and the Long Night comes from accounts set down by septons thousands of years later.

 

 Exactly.  History told by the conqueror culture thousands of years later.  Alarm bells should be going off that what is conventionally known is heavily biased pro-Andal, pro-kneeler, and anti-those who refused to kneel.  And thus that anti-wildling prejudice colors the way their customs are viewed by members of the "civilized" world: 

Quote

He put his heels to his horse and trotted off, giving them no choice but to follow or be left behind. Either was fine with him, so long as they did not sit down to talk for a day and a night. That was the trouble with the clans; they had an absurd notion that every man's voice should be heard in council, so they argued about everything, endlessly. Even their women were allowed to speak. Small wonder that it had been hundreds of years since they last threatened the Vale with anything beyond an occasional raid. Tyrion meant to change that.

1

  This passage from Tyrion's POV should be setting off alarm bells to the reader of gross inflating of any wildling threat and prejudice of wildling ways that should make us take what southern culture says about them with a very hefty pile of salt.  George is showing us through Tyrion that 1) Wildlings practice egalitarianism between the sexes and have a sense of democratic rule 2) Tyrion's pro-southern bias interprets these things as signs of weakness and lack of civilized order 3) Tyrion also is inadvertently telling us the raiding is occasional and not as great of a danger as the way people commonly talk about it.  Not saying they don't raid and they aren't sometimes a threat as reported in Arya's chapters in the Riverlands, but on closer examination, the current raiding is done by one clan out of several: the Stone Crows led by Gunthor.  It's a small amount of some truth overblown to a ridiculous and racist degree.  The same is probably true in the North as well.     

 

[Darkstream]

Ah yes, thank you @Blue-Eyed Wolf for pointing that out. I was actually thinking about the mountain clans and their situation while writing up my response, but was short on time, and wanted to double check my facts before bringing it up. Besides, you have done a far better job at laying it out than I could have anyway, so again, thanks for the excellent post, and saving me the trouble of finding those passages, and refreshing my memory.

 

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, unless you assume that the Wall wasn't built to keep the Others out of the realms of men in case they ever came back we are certainly not on the same page. That's essentially confirmed.

Unless nobody sent the men living north of the Wall the memo that a huge wall out of ice was built to keep the Others they are responsible for not deciding to migrate down south of the Wall so that they can better defend the realms of men against the Others.

Well no, that is not my assumption, and I'll take that type of response as a no, you don't have any evidence to back up your claim.

It's funny, you probably don't recall this, but about a year or so ago, it was actually you that helped me to understand the concept of circular logic. After that day, I did a little research, and taught myself the basics of argumental fallacies, so I know, but maybe you would like to point out the fallacie you are commiting in this argument you have put forth?

Quote

Yeah, because Ygritte is an authority on the history of events stretching back thousands of years. She and some of her contemporaries seem to believe that the Wall was built to keep them out. But that doesn't make it so.

Well, I'm going to take her views on the matter a little more seriously than yours. After all, her thoughts came from GRRM himself. Just because you want to invalidate all of the textual evidence put forth against your argument, it doesn't make it so.

Quote

In effect, the NW and the Wall were an obstacle to wildling raids and wildling ambitions but that's another issue entirely.

Please do provide some text showing that the Wildlings ambitions are as you see them.

Quote

The truth is that we have a pretty good picture who built the Wall. We also have a pretty good picture for what reason it was built. If you want to spin it in a way suggesting that it was built for another reason you have to ignore the Others and the wights as a major magical threat as well as explain the Night Gate and the magical effects of the Wall as a wight stopper.

Nope, I haven't tried to spin anything, and I pretty much agree with your  assessment as to why the wall was built. I do however believe that it is a little bit more complicated, and there was a lot more going on than what you would have me believe.

Quote

Continuous attacks of the wildlings on the NW and the North for thousands of years?

No, I believe that the Wildlings situation was that they were facing extinction at the hands of the Others, and we're attempting to get to a safer place in an attempt to ensure their survival, but nice try.

Quote

It referred to the NW.

Sorry, my mistake, but I'm still not sure that I agree with that assessment either way.

I would like to respond to the rest of your post, but have to run. I'll try to get back to you when I have the time. 

 

[Lord Varys]

@Blue-Eyed Wolf

Sorry, that's comparing apples and oranges. The Vale was conquered by the Andals and many of the First Men who weren't willing to yield to the new regime were dispossessed and driven into the mountains. But there is no reason to believe anything like that happened that with the wildlings. Who should have driven the wildlings back behind the Wall? For what reason? The North is a very vast land and very scarcely populated. There should be room enough for everybody.

Granted, there is a chance that the Stark conquest of the North might have forced some people to leave their lands. But if that's the case then we have no textual evidence for any migration up north (whereas we know that the Blackwoods might originally have owned lands in the Wolfswood before the Starks took them from them).

The idea, however, that the First Men living north of the Wall are not, mostly, descended from original First Men settlers migrating up there during the Dawn Age fits much better with the facts. For one, we know that the Andals introduced steel weapons and armor to Westeros. And we also know that (supposedly) the unification of the North under the rule of House Stark was more or less over when the first Andals came to Westeros. That would mean that the Starks and their vassals only acquired steel weapons around that time or later, meaning that the Starks originally conquered the North at a time when everybody up there was still using bronze.

Thus the Starks and the other Lords of the North did most likely not drive some of their fellow First Men beyond the Wall using superior weaponry.

Also note that the men actually still speaking the Old Tongue - like the Thenns - actually have a very similar world view to the kneelers, suggesting that their First Men culture goes straight back to some First Men from the Dawn Age or the Age of Heroes who established some sort of petty kingdom up there in the far north.

I know that (some) women are allowed to participate in the war councils of the clansmen. That was never in question. However, just as with the wildlings there are women and women. There is Chella but there are also the remark of Gunthor that Tyrion is going to make the mothers laugh and that the mothers go hungry. There certainly is a hierarchy among these people. There are warriors - men and women, but mostly men - and then there are the non-combatants (mostly women - mothers - and, I presume, also children and old people).

Nobody ever doubted that strong warrior-women weren't more or less accepted as equals among the wildlings. Although they most certainly would have to prove their valor and stamina by being much better at everything they do than the average man is. You know, just as it is in today's society with women in a male-dominated society.

6 hours ago, Darkstream said:

Well no, that is not my assumption, and I'll take that type of response as a no, you don't have any evidence to back up your claim.

There is a certain basic set we usually take as given facts in this story. Things like the basic facts this story seems to be about. For instance, the fact that they NW built a wall of ice 700 feet high over a period of hundred or thousands of years. That in itself makes it clear that this wall was never built to keep some brigands out.

The same goes for the fact that the Others are a major threat and plot point of the story, which is, for instance, testified by the role they play in the very prologue of the first book.

You can say that I beg the question if you challenge those facts. That certainly is your right. But then I'd answer that I don't see any reason to question them with the evidence we have right now.

Quote

It's funny, you probably don't recall this, but about a year or so ago, it was actually you that helped me to understand the concept of circular logic. After that day, I did a little research, and taught myself the basics of argumental fallacies, so I know, but maybe you would like to point out the fallacie you are commiting in this argument you have put forth?

I think I did that just above ;-). Yet the question remains: Would you actually want to challenge the idea that the Wall was built to keep the Others out? If so, on what grounds? And do you also challenge the idea that the NW was a revered and honorable institution for most of its existence? I think the fact that it survived as long as it did, supported only by a hundred petty kingdoms stretching throughout the entirety of Westeros (we know that Nymeria sent six Dornish kings up to the Wall, suggesting that the NW was even revered and supported by people down in Dorne) is testament of that.

We don't know yet when exactly the deep-seated hatred between the wildlings and the NW began, but it would have been somewhere down the road. The fact that Joramun and the Starks worked together to bring the Night's King down also suggests that the wildlings and the North weren't exactly at odds shortly after the Wall was built - and both seemed to have an interest in restoring order among the NW.

Quote

Well, I'm going to take her views on the matter a little more seriously than yours. After all, her thoughts came from GRRM himself. Just because you want to invalidate all of the textual evidence put forth against your argument, it doesn't make it so.

A lot of things come from GRRM himself. Yet not all characters are right. For instance, take the video @The Fattest Leech linked above. Therein George is asked by a reader why there are no children in Asshai. George answers by pointing out that Yandel is a crappy source being a maester writing at the Citadel of Oldtown. He says his information on Asshai is about as reliable as the words of a medieval monk writing about Vietnam. That puts things into perspective.

Ygritte may know a lot of her own feelings and the live beyond the Wall at the time the series is taking place but there is no reason to believe she has a clear picture of the ancient past. We have no reason to believe she was even in intimate contact with Bloodraven or the Children of the Forest who could have told her why the Wall was actually built.

In fact, Mance's entire agenda and actions make it clear that his people aren't in contact with the Children or Bloodraven. Else one should imagine that he would have taken a less controversial approach.

Quote

Please do provide some text showing that the Wildlings ambitions are as you see them.

Well, I was speaking about those Kings-beyond-the-Wall who invaded the North over the millennia. Those people would have been ambitious, don't you agree. We have no evidence to believe that any Stark or Targaryen king ever tried to expand his kingdom beyond the Wall. But the Kings-beyond-the-Wall weren't content being just kings beyond the Wall.

Quote

Nope, I haven't tried to spin anything, and I pretty much agree with your  assessment as to why the wall was built. I do however believe that it is a little bit more complicated, and there was a lot more going on than what you would have me believe.

We can speculate what was going on in addition to things we both think happened there. But unless we have evidence those would just be speculations.

Quote

No, I believe that the Wildlings situation was that they were facing extinction at the hands of the Others, and we're attempting to get to a safer place in an attempt to ensure their survival, but nice try.

The thing is, we don't know exactly where the Others were defeated the last time nor whether there actually was some sort of last battle between them and the Last Hero. However, we have no reason to believe the Others were defeated in the North nor have we any reason to believe the Wall was built where it was because it was near the site of such a last battle.

In fact, if you check the geography of Westeros then the location of the Wall marks the shortest distance between the two coasts in the northern reaches. Farther up north the lands broaden again, making it much more difficult to build such a magical wall. After all, the Lands of Always Winter (presumably the place where the center of the power of the Others is and where they survived all those years after they were defeated) does not exactly begin immediately behind the Wall. It is still hundreds of leagues away. Yet if the point of the Wall is to guard the realms of men then we should assume by default that the men founding the NW and building the Wall knew that the lands beyond the Wall were lost/conceded to the Others before a new war would even begin. They did not intend to hold those lands in the name of the First Men but built their defenses and future front line where they raised that huge ice wall.

One assumes the Children and the First Men agreed that this was the best spot for their project, and one also assumes that this was not only a barrier between the First Men and the Others but also between the final 'reservation' of the giants and the Children and the lands that would now become the lands of the First Men (everything down south, really). We know the Children were pretty much gone nearly everywhere when the Andals came, suggesting that any survivors that still might have been left down south quietly migrated up to rejoin their brethren living beyond the Wall after it had been built.

In addition, we also don't know how many First Men died during the Long Night. How many people living north of the spot where the Wall would stand in the future actually did survive that ordeal? How many First Men did survive in all Westeros? We don't know. My personal guess is that Westeros was pretty much depopulated from Dorne to the Lands of Always Winter.

The idea that there was any enmity between the First Men living north and south of the Wall shortly after the Long Night was over makes no sense to me. Mankind itself was threatened by extinction and presumably everybody worked together to defeat the foe. Why the hell should the wildlings and the First Men be at odds? How the hell could the Wall be built and the NW flourish if the wildlings were opposed to the whole thing?

[Darkstream]

@Lord Varys

I think this discussion has ran a little off course, and you are misunderstanding what I am challenging you on. I'm not disputing a lot of what you are saying, and I've never put forth that the Wall wasn't built for the purpose of keeping the Others out.

What I take issue with is your assertion that it was as simple as the Wildlings failing to RSVP their invitation to pack up a suitcase, and move South. To claim that all factions were all buddy buddy, and united to fight against the threat of the Others is just not all that believable to me. 

Quote

The idea that there was any enmity between the First Men living north and south of the Wall shortly after the Long Night was over makes no sense to me. Mankind itself was threatened by extinction and presumably everybody worked together to defeat the foe. Why the hell should the wildlings and the First Men be at odds? How the hell could the Wall be built and the NW flourish if the wildlings were opposed to the whole thing?

Well, just look at the situation facing the realm in the present. Are all factions united against the impending threat that has the potential to wipe mankind off the face of the planet?

Not only do you have several regions of the Seven Kingdoms fighting amongst themselves, but you have dissension within the Watch itself. The Lord Commander himself was just a victim of an assassination attempt, not by the Others, but by his own men. At this moment, are all of the Wildlings on the same page, and united to fight the impending doom that all mankind is facing?

To claim that all of the Wildlings, and all of the Giants, and all of the CotF, and all of the First men were united as one big cohesive unit to fight against the Others is quite far fetched in my opinion.

Could there have been a faction of the Wildlings that bent the knee, or forged an alliance with the aggressors from the South, and cooperated in the building of the Wall? Sure. But that doesnt mean that there was not others that refused to bend the knee, and were forced to migrate further North.

Like you've stated in one of your earlier posts, we have far too little information to make a conclusive judgement on the Wildling culture. There are a plethora of factors unknown to us that could have effected the situation. For you to make the statement that it's the Wildlings own fault that they are stuck beyond the wall is completely unsupported by the text, and to me, comes off as bias, wishful thinking on your part. 

[Lord Varys]

@Darkstream

Well, it depends what kind of situation the Long Night actually was. Was it some desperate fight for the survival of mankind or just some mild crisis? In my opinion this was a huge threat possibly involving many factions working together to throw the Others. Those factions certainly seem to include the First Men and the Children but also possibly people from Essos.

In addition, if there was a Long Night lasting for a generation and if the wights and Others were roaming the entire continent of Westeros (which they should have been able to do considering that there was no Wall in those days) there is no reason to believe that anybody was as oblivious to the real danger as people are today.

I mean, the survivors eventually built the Wall and maintained it and the NW for thousands of years, right?

The ancestors of the wildlings should even know better about the threat of the Others because they lived closer to the Lands of Always Winter as well as to the last hiding places of the Children.

The way I see it is that the First Men south of the Wall and the First Men (eventually the wildlings) north of the Wall grew estranged over time when their lifestyle and culture slowly changed.

In the present wildlings like Ygritte grew up with a huge hatred of this wall that keeps them out of more fertile lands. That in itself means she no longer really understands or cares why that Wall was originally built. Presumably the First Men back in the day did not see their brothers up north as their enemies and the NW most certainly would have offered them to come down and hide behind and defend the Wall against the Others should they ever come back.

But over the centuries things changed.

In general, though, it is quite clear that the NW are not aggressors. They are static, bound to the Wall they defend. They don't conquer lands, nor do they enslave or capture people. They just protect the Wall. It is the wildlings who try to pass the Wall and attack and kill the people living on the other side. Once the wildlings began to do that on a large scale they and the NW became mortal enemies.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

How Val being Jon's Queen ended up as an analysis about the Free Folk society?

[Darkstream]

On 18/12/2016 at 10:50 AM, Jon's Queen Consort said:

How Val being Jon's Queen ended up as an analysis about the Free Folk society?

Well, I'm guessing because Val is of the Free Folk. I think It's only natural for a discussion to evolve, and expand into a broader scope of topics.

If the thread was titled Smurfette is Jon's true Queen, I'm sure we would be discussing the merits of the Smurf's society.

I see no need for one to get their knickers all smurfed into a knot over a little harmless discussion.  

 

 

 

[The Fattest Leech]

Let's keep the party going

Will the Free Folk follow Jon and Val after they cross the wall???

Yes, because they already have. Both Gilly and the first wave of "captured" Free Folk kneel and pay homage to Jon as they pass through the wall. Something happened that gave the wildlings the idea that Jon is their new leader, and Val as well. ADWD/Jon III has a ton of clues to this if you want a full re-read.

A Dance with Dragons - Jon II

"He'll be down with the books. My old septon used to say that books are dead men talking. Dead men should keep quiet, is what I say. No one wants to hear a dead man's yabber." Dolorous Edd went off muttering of worms and spiders.

When Gilly entered, she went at once to her knees. Jon came around the table and drew her to her feet. "You don't need to take a knee for me. That's just for kings."

A Dance with Dragons - Jon III

 Soon or late, however, Tormund Giantsbane would assault the Wall again, and when that hour came Jon wondered whose side Stannis's new-made subjects would choose. You can give them land and mercy, but the free folk choose their own kings, and it was Mance they chose, not you.

And we know that Stannis and everyone else, except Jon , knows that Val is not a wildling princess the way those south of the wall think of it. But the Free Folk bow to her anyway as Stannis puts her on the platform next to him as Mel burns "Mance"/Rattleshirt. Clearly Stannis sees the power in Val.

Before I get to the Val on the platform idea, I want to give a quick reminder of Mel and her tricks and wise (wo)men. We saw in the main post how Val is the wise woman, and also how Mel is associated with smells when magic is being cast:

1. "Mummers change their faces with artifice," the kindly man was saying, "and sorcerers use glamors, weaving light and shadow and desire to make illusions that trick the eye. These arts you shall learn, but what we do here goes deeper. Wise men can see through artifice, and glamors dissolve before sharp eyes,
2. ADWD/ Jon VI: In the shadow of the Wall, the direwolf brushed up against his fingers. For half a heartbeat the night came alive with a thousand smells, and Jon Snow heard the crackle of the crust breaking on a patch of old snow. Someone was behind him, he realized suddenly. Someone who smelled warm as a summer day.
   When he turned he saw Ygritte.
3. ASOS/ Davos III: "With a smile and swirl of scarlet skirts, she was gone. Only her scent lingered after."

Then we get to the fMance/Rattleshirt burning. This is sending the message from Melisandre to the Wildlings that you submit, or you burn. Sound familiar?:

A Dance with Dragons - Jon III

His words fell on deaf ears. Stannis had remained unmoved. The law was plain; a deserter's life was forfeit.

Beneath the weeping Wall, Lady Melisandre raised her pale white hands. "We all must choose," she proclaimed. "Man or woman, young or old, lord or peasant, our choices are the same." Her voice made Jon Snow think of anise and nutmeg and cloves. She stood at the king's side on a wooden scaffold raised above the pit. "We choose light or we choose darkness. We choose good or we choose evil. We choose the true god or the false."

(and then Melisandre burns fMance)

But what is Val doing in this scene??? Why, she is behaving as a wise woman and she is already dressed and crowned a queen and she will not weep or look away. Later in the story, Val mentions that she knows Mel's tricks. I think here Val knows that fMance is actually Rattleshirt burning...

He [Stannis] is stone and she [Mel] is flame. ... Val stood beside him, tall and fair. They had crowned her with a simple circlet of dark bronze, yet she looked more regal in bronze than Stannis did in gold. Her eyes were grey and fearless, unflinching. Beneath an ermine cloak, she wore white and gold. Her honey-blond hair had been done up in a thick braid that hung over her right shoulder to her waist. The chill in the air had put color in her cheeks.

(and then a few lines later)

Val stood on the platform as still as if she had been carved of salt. She will not weep nor look away. Jon wondered what Ygritte would have done in her place. The women are the strong ones.

And then Stannis gives this charming piece of advice to the cold, naked, freezing, starving wildlings. No wonder they bent the knee and burned weirwood sticks:

"Westeros has but one king," said Stannis. His voice rang harsh, with none of Melisandre's music. "With this sword I defend my subjects and destroy those who menace them. Bend the knee, and I promise you food, land, and justice. Kneel and live. Or go and die. The choice is yours." He slipped Lightbringer into its scabbard, and the world darkened once again, as if the sun had gone behind a cloud. "Open the gates."

"OPEN THE GATES," bellowed Ser Clayton Suggs, in a voice as deep as a warhorn...

"Come," urged Melisandre. "Come to the light … or run back to the darkness." In the pit below her, the fire was crackling. "If you choose life, come to me."

(and then Jon thinks this)

And they came. Slowly at first, some limping or leaning on their fellows, the captives began to emerge from their rough-hewn pen. If you would eat, come to me, Jon thought. If you would not freeze or starve, submit.

But we know that Jon knows the Free Folk will not submit to Stannis, but what do the Free Folk do instead, they are kneeling Val up on the platform. The Free Folk just saw their "king" burned, and their "queen" Dalla is dead. That leaves Val as a next in line. Val did not chose to be their leader, as is the Free Folk way, instead they chose her and bow to her:

Sigorn was the first to kneel before the king. The new Magnar of Thenn was a younger, shorter version of his father—lean, balding, clad in bronze greaves and a leather shirt sewn with bronze scales. Next came Rattleshirt in clattering armor made of bones and boiled leather, his helm a giant's skull. Under the bones lurked a ruined and wretched creature with cracked brown teeth and a yellow tinge to the whites of his eyes. A small, malicious, treacherous man, as stupid as he is cruel. Jon did not believe for a moment that he would keep faith. He wondered what Val was feeling as she watched him kneel, forgiven. (TeeHee, Val knows!)

Lesser leaders followed. Two clan chiefs of the Hornfoot men, whose feet were black and hard. An old wisewoman revered by the peoples of the Milkwater. A scrawny dark-eyed boy of two-and-ten, the son of Alfyn Crowkiller. Halleck, brother to Harma Dogshead, with her pigs.

Having knelt, the wildlings shuffled past the ranks of the black brothers to the gate. Jon had detailed Horse and Satin and half a dozen others to lead them through the Wall with torches. On the far side, bowls of hot onion soup awaited them, and chunks of black bread and sausage. Clothes as well: cloaks, breeches, boots, tunics, good leather gloves. They would sleep on piles of clean straw, with fires blazing to keep the chill of night at bay. This king was nothing if not methodical. Soon or late, however, Tormund Giantsbane would assault the Wall again, and when that hour came Jon wondered whose side Stannis's new-made subjects would choose. You can give them land and mercy, but the free folk choose their own kings, and it was Mance they chose, not you.

The Free Folk have knelt to Val and chosen her a their leader. Jon sends Val out to find the rest of the wildlings with Tormund a few weeks later.

That second wave of Free Folk pay homage to Jon as they pass though the wall by way of gifts and valuables, and even giving up their own children. They are choosing Jon as their "king"/leader. Here is the scene.

[Neds Secret]

8 hours ago, Darkstream said:

Well, I'm guessing because Val is of the free folk. I think It's only natural for a discussion to evolve, and expand into a broader scope of topics.

If the thread was titled Smurfette is Jon's true Queen, I'm sure we would be discussing the merits of the Smurf's society.

I see no need for one to get their knickers all smurfed into a knot over a little harmless discussion.  

 

 

 

Oh darkstream, you kill me!Personally I would like for Jon to end up with Val as she is quite an interesting character to me, and I feel she could assist Jon with sage advice, GRRM on the other hand rarely gives the characters what they need or want, but he almost always gives them what is coming!

[Orphalesion]

On 10/07/2016 at 0:43 PM, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Since there is much talk about my all time favourite ship and the other (1 & 2) were archived here is a new one.

So far I have 

 

 

 

Special thanks @The Fattest Leech for the last quote.

 

What do you think? What do you believe that I have forgotten?

I agree that a pairing of Jon and Val would be quite fitting.

Which is why I think it might not happen.

ASoIaF has a tendency to showcase the positive sites of things that might happen or might have happened, but that never come to fruition.

Some examples of this are when Cat watches Robb and Darcey dancing and thinks they look beautiful together, Sansa displaying some queenly attributes during Blackwater, Ned offering to take Gendry into his service one day etc. etc. etc. 

I, personally think it wil be one of the "too good to happen" moments.

[Darkstream]

11 hours ago, Neds Secret said:

Oh darkstream, you kill me!

Ha, ha! Thanks Neds Secret, I try.  

@Jon's Queen Consort I hope you realize that I'm just trying to have a little fun, and there's no ill will intended. I do apologize for straying off topic. Thank the gods, old and new, that we have wonderful posters such as  @The Fattest Leech to set things back on track.  

Quote

Personally I would like for Jon to end up with Val as she is quite an interesting character to me, and I feel she could assist Jon with sage advice, GRRM on the other hand rarely gives the characters what they need or want, but he almost always gives them what is coming!

Well said.   

[purple-eyes]

15 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Let's keep the party going

Will the Free Folk follow Jon and Val after they cross the wall???

Yes, because they already have. Both Gilly and the first wave of "captured" Free Folk kneel and pay homage to Jon as they pass through the wall. Something happened that gave the wildlings the idea that Jon is their new leader, and Val as well. ADWD/Jon III has a ton of clues to this if you want a full re-read.

A Dance with Dragons - Jon II

"He'll be down with the books. My old septon used to say that books are dead men talking. Dead men should keep quiet, is what I say. No one wants to hear a dead man's yabber." Dolorous Edd went off muttering of worms and spiders.

When Gilly entered, she went at once to her knees. Jon came around the table and drew her to her feet. "You don't need to take a knee for me. That's just for kings."

A Dance with Dragons - Jon III

 Soon or late, however, Tormund Giantsbane would assault the Wall again, and when that hour came Jon wondered whose side Stannis's new-made subjects would choose. You can give them land and mercy, but the free folk choose their own kings, and it was Mance they chose, not you.

And we know that Stannis and everyone else, except Jon , knows that Val is not a wildling princess the way those south of the wall think of it. But the Free Folk bow to her anyway as Stannis puts her on the platform next to him as Mel burns "Mance"/Rattleshirt. Clearly Stannis sees the power in Val.

Before I get to the Val on the platform idea, I want to give a quick reminder of Mel and her tricks and wise (wo)men. We saw in the main post how Val is the wise woman, and also how Mel is associated with smells when magic is being cast:

1. "Mummers change their faces with artifice," the kindly man was saying, "and sorcerers use glamors, weaving light and shadow and desire to make illusions that trick the eye. These arts you shall learn, but what we do here goes deeper. Wise men can see through artifice, and glamors dissolve before sharp eyes,
2. ADWD/ Jon VI: In the shadow of the Wall, the direwolf brushed up against his fingers. For half a heartbeat the night came alive with a thousand smells, and Jon Snow heard the crackle of the crust breaking on a patch of old snow. Someone was behind him, he realized suddenly. Someone who smelled warm as a summer day.
   When he turned he saw Ygritte.
3. ASOS/ Davos III: "With a smile and swirl of scarlet skirts, she was gone. Only her scent lingered after."

Then we get to the fMance/Rattleshirt burning. This is sending the message from Melisandre to the Wildlings that you submit, or you burn. Sound familiar?:

A Dance with Dragons - Jon III

His words fell on deaf ears. Stannis had remained unmoved. The law was plain; a deserter's life was forfeit.

Beneath the weeping Wall, Lady Melisandre raised her pale white hands. "We all must choose," she proclaimed. "Man or woman, young or old, lord or peasant, our choices are the same." Her voice made Jon Snow think of anise and nutmeg and cloves. She stood at the king's side on a wooden scaffold raised above the pit. "We choose light or we choose darkness. We choose good or we choose evil. We choose the true god or the false."

(and then Melisandre burns fMance)

But what is Val doing in this scene??? Why, she is behaving as a wise woman and she is already dressed and crowned a queen and she will not weep or look away. Later in the story, Val mentions that she knows Mel's tricks. I think here Val knows that fMance is actually Rattleshirt burning...

He [Stannis] is stone and she [Mel] is flame. ... Val stood beside him, tall and fair. They had crowned her with a simple circlet of dark bronze, yet she looked more regal in bronze than Stannis did in gold. Her eyes were grey and fearless, unflinching. Beneath an ermine cloak, she wore white and gold. Her honey-blond hair had been done up in a thick braid that hung over her right shoulder to her waist. The chill in the air had put color in her cheeks.

(and then a few lines later)

Val stood on the platform as still as if she had been carved of salt. She will not weep nor look away. Jon wondered what Ygritte would have done in her place. The women are the strong ones.

And then Stannis gives this charming piece of advice to the cold, naked, freezing, starving wildlings. No wonder they bent the knee and burned weirwood sticks:

"Westeros has but one king," said Stannis. His voice rang harsh, with none of Melisandre's music. "With this sword I defend my subjects and destroy those who menace them. Bend the knee, and I promise you food, land, and justice. Kneel and live. Or go and die. The choice is yours." He slipped Lightbringer into its scabbard, and the world darkened once again, as if the sun had gone behind a cloud. "Open the gates."

"OPEN THE GATES," bellowed Ser Clayton Suggs, in a voice as deep as a warhorn...

"Come," urged Melisandre. "Come to the light … or run back to the darkness." In the pit below her, the fire was crackling. "If you choose life, come to me."

(and then Jon thinks this)

And they came. Slowly at first, some limping or leaning on their fellows, the captives began to emerge from their rough-hewn pen. If you would eat, come to me, Jon thought. If you would not freeze or starve, submit.

But we know that Jon knows the Free Folk will not submit to Stannis, but what do the Free Folk do instead, they are kneeling Val up on the platform. The Free Folk just saw their "king" burned, and their "queen" Dalla is dead. That leaves Val as a next in line. Val did not chose to be their leader, as is the Free Folk way, instead they chose her and bow to her:

Sigorn was the first to kneel before the king. The new Magnar of Thenn was a younger, shorter version of his father—lean, balding, clad in bronze greaves and a leather shirt sewn with bronze scales. Next came Rattleshirt in clattering armor made of bones and boiled leather, his helm a giant's skull. Under the bones lurked a ruined and wretched creature with cracked brown teeth and a yellow tinge to the whites of his eyes. A small, malicious, treacherous man, as stupid as he is cruel. Jon did not believe for a moment that he would keep faith. He wondered what Val was feeling as she watched him kneel, forgiven. (TeeHee, Val knows!)

Lesser leaders followed. Two clan chiefs of the Hornfoot men, whose feet were black and hard. An old wisewoman revered by the peoples of the Milkwater. A scrawny dark-eyed boy of two-and-ten, the son of Alfyn Crowkiller. Halleck, brother to Harma Dogshead, with her pigs.

Having knelt, the wildlings shuffled past the ranks of the black brothers to the gate. Jon had detailed Horse and Satin and half a dozen others to lead them through the Wall with torches. On the far side, bowls of hot onion soup awaited them, and chunks of black bread and sausage. Clothes as well: cloaks, breeches, boots, tunics, good leather gloves. They would sleep on piles of clean straw, with fires blazing to keep the chill of night at bay. This king was nothing if not methodical. Soon or late, however, Tormund Giantsbane would assault the Wall again, and when that hour came Jon wondered whose side Stannis's new-made subjects would choose. You can give them land and mercy, but the free folk choose their own kings, and it was Mance they chose, not you.

The Free Folk have knelt to Val and chosen her a their leader. Jon sends Val out to find the rest of the wildlings with Tormund a few weeks later.

That second wave of Free Folk pay homage to Jon as they pass though the wall by way of gifts and valuables, and even giving up their own children. They are choosing Jon as their "king"/leader. Here is the scene.

I am confused.

So Mance died, his wife died, then his wife's sister is next in line? in line to what? why?

King-beyond-the-wall does not work like this. By the way, Mance's son is still there.

If Val can become "queen" by this way, then Cersei indeed has a very good claim to iron throne.

 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

2 hours ago, Darkstream said:

@Jon's Queen Consort I hope you realize that I'm just trying to have a little fun, and there's no ill will intended. I do apologize for straying off topic. Thank the gods, old and new, that we have wonderful posters such as  @The Fattest Leech to set things back on track.  

It's Christmas and Doctor Who is coming in just five days after one long year I don't care if someone is a little off topic.  Lets just try to keep it as closest to the topic as we can.

16 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

The Free Folk have knelt to Val and chosen her a their leader. Jon sends Val out to find the rest of the wildlings with Tormund a few weeks later.

I like this part. The Free Folk choose their leaders and they have chosen Val as they have proved in ADWD which is something that Val and Jon have in common.

[The Fattest Leech]

5 hours ago, purple-eyes said:

I am confused.

So Mance died, his wife died, then his wife's sister is next in line? in line to what? why?

King-beyond-the-wall does not work like this. By the way, Mance's son is still there.

If Val can become "queen" by this way, then Cersei indeed has a very good claim to iron throne.

 

Ok, I'll keep this to one short response to you because you are known to loathe Jon, Rhaegar, etc.

As I mentioned in what I posted, the Free Folk freely chose Val. She already has some status with them. They could have chosen anyone, but they chose Val. Monster is too young, Mance's son doesn't even have a name yet, and the "king" thing with the Free Folk is not inherited. That is what was said.

Cersei in KL is set to a whole other line of rules, which we all know

[Lord Varys]

On 18.12.2016 at 6:50 PM, Jon's Queen Consort said:

How Val being Jon's Queen ended up as an analysis about the Free Folk society?

Because @sweetsunray thought it was a great idea to continue this discussion in this thread.

If I went back and asked whether it makes sense that Val could be Jon's queen (assuming for a moment that Jon will become a king) there are very obvious and strong arguments against this:

1. We know that Targaryens had to give up their claim to their Iron Throne when they essentially married a commoner. Jenny supposedly is descended from the Mudds or some other ancient royal line from the Riverlands yet nobody believed that claim. Val hasn't even that, she is a wildling and a commoner. In a society where your ancestry determines your rank in the society there is no chance that she could ever become queen. And there is no way a few thousand wildlings are going to change deeply ingrained societal realities. Even if Val singlehandedly saved every nobleman in Westeros the establishment would still not accept her as their queen.

[Jon actually also has a similar problem because his Targaryen/Stark heritage isn't going to resolve the problem of his religion. The new High Septon most certainly isn't going to accept a tree-worshiper as the new King on the Iron Throne. And unless Jon doesn't team up/marries Daenerys there is little chance he can overcome that obstacle. The Faith of the Andals is the dominant religion in Westeros.]

2. If Jon wants to be king Val would just be an obstacle to acquire allies and friends. She is beautiful woman but she is a nobody in the grand scale of things. Jon would need to form an alliance with a powerful faction (Daenerys, a great house from the South, etc.) if he wants to be king. Marrying Val or remaining married to Val wouldn't help with that. If Jon married Val he would be about as smart politically (and have as much success) as Robb when he married a Westerling girl.

3. Val isn't a main character. One should assume that an important love affair should take place between major (POV) characters, especially if there are women among them Jon could hook up with (Dany, Asha, Arya, Arianne, Brienne, etc.). Val is just a tertiary character.

4. From the point of view of Jon's story him ending up with Val narrows the narrative scope of his story. He would be stuck with a wildling/northern girl while his Targaryen ancestry seems to be indicating that a greater destiny lies ahead of him. I could easily enough see Rickon end up with a wife like Val but not Jon.

[kissdbyfire]

3 hours ago, purple-eyes said:

I am confused.

So Mance died, his wife died, then his wife's sister is next in line? in line to what? why?

King-beyond-the-wall does not work like this. By the way, Mance's son is still there.

If Val can become "queen" by this way, then Cersei indeed has a very good claim to iron throne.

 

He isn't, though. Mance and Dalla's son is with Gilly in Oldtown (or thereabouts). 

[Lord Varys]

43 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

He isn't, though. Mance and Dalla's son is with Gilly in Oldtown (or thereabouts). 

With Jon dead nobody might believe that, though. Or decide not to believe it. If Mel intended to sacrifice some people with king's blood she could still pick the babe and proclaim he is Mance's son. And Val and Gerric Kingsblood would also make good sacrifices in this regard.

[kissdbyfire]

30 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

With Jon dead nobody might believe that, though. Or decide not to believe it. If Mel intended to sacrifice some people with king's blood she could still pick the babe and proclaim he is Mance's son. And Val and Gerric Kingsblood would also make good sacrifices in this regard.

Indeed. But I was merely stating that "monster" is not Mance's son.