Heresy 190

[LynnS]

8 hours ago, Dornish Neck Tie said:

I think it was the idea that the Stark kids might not be so special after all. Which would not necessarily be true, of course; the gods specifically chose the Stark children to receive the gifts

I don't think it's about altering the blood so much as it is altering the mind.  A form of evolution so to speak.  The direwolves initiate the contact with children when their minds are malleable; change the brain; add the third eye capabilities and this shows up as a genetic trait over time with characteristic behaviors.  Something that a medieval people would call the wolf blood.  It's not about a literal infusion of direwolf blood or genetic material.

[LynnS]

15 hours ago, PrettyPig said:

George likes his prime numbers:  3, 7, 13, 19, 79, etc.   Significance?  I have no idea.

Chapter numbers?  Prime number rat maze.  LOL

[Black Crow]

11 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

You bet your sweet bippy he was! Thanks for covering my backside!

Yeah but the point is that children from that union are not ancestors of the present children of Winterfell; they don't inherit their power from her

[Black Crow]

7 hours ago, Tatsuwa said:

Of all the notable houses of the North, the Boltons have never been mentioned
in marriages with Starks.They have been portrayed as enemy rivals to house
Stark for thousands of years.
Consider Roose Boltons description : pallid complexion, eyes which are as pale
and strange as two white moons.
Also consider his habit of leeching "the bad blood" out, that seems almost an
obsession.

This is something we've discussed in the distant past and yes, I agree. There's the bitter rivalry between the houses and of course young Ramsay's hobbies which so closely parallel Old Nan's stories. Another possible clue, which I haven't seen discussed, is their survival despite everything they have done to the Starks. Have they survived because they are kin?

Old Nan could be right on both counts. Some say the Nights King was a Bolton says she, but he was a Stark of Winterfell. Both can be true if he was a Stark but his son escaped to found House Bolton.

[Black Crow]

13 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

Are you sure the Blackwoods have no Stark blood?  Even going back a thousand years?

It has been discussed before that the gift is probably inherited from the mother, and all the Starks have the same mother.  This could explain why they all have it, and Ned does not.  However Jon doesn't fit.  No one suspects Catyln is Jon's mother, there isn't enough tinfoil for that hat.

I still suspect an agreement in place, where the Children send each son of a Stark Lord a direwolf.  The question then is why did they stop.

200 years ago, presumably.

As to the Blackwoods, there's no reason to suspect a common root; they belong to the crows/ravens, not the wolves

[Black Crow]

5 hours ago, Lord Wraith said:

Its interesting to say the least. The Stark King defeated the Warg King and took his daughters to wife. Maybe this is when they first gained the power. Bolton's then flay the Starks trying to learn the secrets of Warging mayhaps? 

We used to say that it was a case of the Boltons saying Up Yours! We can skinchange too and we don't need your magic to do it!

As to the warg king though I'm not so sure about that being the origin. What the passage actually says is that "his daughters were taken as prizes by their conquerors". If they were wives they were salt wives, not rock wives.

[Black Crow]

3 hours ago, LynnS said:

I don't think it's about altering the blood so much as it is altering the mind.  A form of evolution so to speak.  The direwolves initiate the contact with children when their minds are malleable; change the brain; add the third eye capabilities and this shows up as a genetic trait over time with characteristic behaviors.  Something that a medieval people would call the wolf blood.  It's not about a literal infusion of direwolf blood or genetic material.

Exactly what I argued a couple of pages back.

 

Gods, that moved fast last night...

 

[Lord Wraith]

1 minute ago, Black Crow said:

We used to say that it was a case of the Boltons saying Up Yours! We can skinchange too and we don't need your magic to do it!

As to the warg king though I'm not so sure about that being the origin. What the passage actually says is that "his daughters were taken as prizes by their conquerors". If they were wives they were salt wives, not rock wives.

That is an amusing way of looking at the tradition of flaying...

It may have not been just the Warg King. The Stark Kings usually seemed to wed the daughters of their defeated rivals if what I remember in the World Book is correct ( A lent it to a friend so I can't check at this moment). Its done to create peace as so often happens but I think also trying to improve the bloodline of the Starks.

Also did the Starks have rock and salt wives I remember that being a mostly Ironborn tradition? Maybe bronze and iron wives? 

[Tucu]

4 hours ago, Black Crow said:

200 years ago, presumably.

As to the Blackwoods, there's no reason to suspect a common root; they belong to the crows/ravens, not the wolves

According to the tales BR could "put on the likeness of a one-eyed dog" and "Packs of gaunt gray wolves hunted down his foes". So he was a warg too.

Edit: and before I missed Melantha Blackwood been Rickard's grandmother.

[PrettyPig]

19 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

It has been discussed before that the gift is probably inherited from the mother, and all the Starks have the same mother.  This could explain why they all have it, and Ned does not.  However Jon doesn't fit.  No one suspects Catyln is Jon's mother, there isn't enough tinfoil for that hat.

I think the solution may not be with the current Stark generation's mother, but with their grandmother - or perhaps the union of Stark cousins (Rickard and Lyarra) that produced Ned and his siblings.  I've noted here before that this particular marriage was somewhat unusual in the known lineage of House Stark:  not only is it a cousin marriage, it's a marriage of cousins descended entirely from a single Stark bloodline - Cregan.  

It goes Cregan + Lynarra = Brandon / Beron / Rodrik  -> Lyarra & Willam ->Rickard.   Note that Lyarra Stark, NedCo's mom, is the daughter of the "Wandering Wolf".   Then, of course, we have Brandon, Ned, Lyanna, and Benjen borne from her.

If the maternal line is the important blood as I suspect, then it makes perfect sense for Jon to be gifted with the ability as well as Ned's children should he indeed be the son of Lyanna.

[Tucu]

17 minutes ago, PrettyPig said:

I think the solution may not be with the current Stark generation's mother, but with their grandmother - or perhaps the union of Stark cousins (Rickard and Lyarra) that produced Ned and his siblings.  I've noted here before that this particular marriage was somewhat unusual in the known lineage of House Stark:  not only is it a cousin marriage, it's a marriage of cousins descended entirely from a single Stark bloodline - Cregan.  

It goes Cregan + Lynarra = Brandon / Beron / Rodrik  -> Lyarra & Willam ->Rickard.   Note that Lyarra Stark, NedCo's mom, is the daughter of the "Wandering Wolf".   Then, of course, we have Brandon, Ned, Lyanna, and Benjen borne from her.

If the maternal line is the important blood as I suspect, then it makes perfect sense for Jon to be gifted with the ability as well as Ned's children should he indeed be the son of Lyanna.

I think that the Blackwood maternal bloodline is playing its part as being a magical catalyst.

You mix a Targ (Aegon IV) with a Blackwood (Melissa) and you get Bloodraven, a greenseer

You mix a Stark (Willam) with a Blackwood (Melantha) and a few generations later you get 5 wargs and a greenseer

You mix a Targ again  (Aegon V) with Blackwood (Betha) and you get Duncan meddling with wood witches, Aegon following the advice of those witches to try to hatch dragons and the prophecy that The Prince that was Promised will come from Jaehaerys line. Given his marriage with her sister Shaera and the marriage of the children Aerys and Rhaella, Daenarys the Mother of Dragons has a good amount of Blackwood blood in her. And if Jon is Rhaegar's son, he would have an extra shot of Blackwood in him.

[PrettyPig]

4 minutes ago, Tucu said:

I think that the Blackwood maternal bloodline is playing its part.

That very well could be, because Rickard is from the Blackwood side.   So, even if you stick with just the Starks, you get the "wolf blood" mixed with the "warg blood" comingled in Ned's generation...which still explains why Jon has the gift along with his half-sibs even with a different mother.  It's coming to all the kids courtesy of their Stark parent, whoever that might be.

[Brad Stark]

47 minutes ago, PrettyPig said:

I think the solution may not be with the current Stark generation's mother, but with their grandmother - or perhaps the union of Stark cousins (Rickard and Lyarra) that produced Ned and his siblings.  I've noted here before that this particular marriage was somewhat unusual in the known lineage of House Stark:  not only is it a cousin marriage, it's a marriage of cousins descended entirely from a single Stark bloodline - Cregan.  

It goes Cregan + Lynarra = Brandon / Beron / Rodrik  -> Lyarra & Willam ->Rickard.   Note that Lyarra Stark, NedCo's mom, is the daughter of the "Wandering Wolf".   Then, of course, we have Brandon, Ned, Lyanna, and Benjen borne from her.

If the maternal line is the important blood as I suspect, then it makes perfect sense for Jon to be gifted with the ability as well as Ned's children should he indeed be the son of Lyanna.

Except Jon, the Starks' maternal line is Catyln and then Minasa Whent.

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, PrettyPig said:

I think the solution may not be with the current Stark generation's mother, but with their grandmother - or perhaps the union of Stark cousins (Rickard and Lyarra) that produced Ned and his siblings.  I've noted here before that this particular marriage was somewhat unusual in the known lineage of House Stark:  not only is it a cousin marriage, it's a marriage of cousins descended entirely from a single Stark bloodline - Cregan.  

It goes Cregan + Lynarra = Brandon / Beron / Rodrik  -> Lyarra & Willam ->Rickard.   Note that Lyarra Stark, NedCo's mom, is the daughter of the "Wandering Wolf".   Then, of course, we have Brandon, Ned, Lyanna, and Benjen borne from her.

If the maternal line is the important blood as I suspect, then it makes perfect sense for Jon to be gifted with the ability as well as Ned's children should he indeed be the son of Lyanna.

Or it could be that the assumptions underpinning the maternal line argument are wrong.

.....

When you compare Stark children to each other; which of them look like Catelyn or like Ned.  How do their respective warg capabilities stack up?  What is the life expectancy for women in a medieval society.  How many of them survive childbirth at a young age?

[Dornish Neck Tie]

8 hours ago, LynnS said:

I don't think it's about altering the blood so much as it is altering the mind.  A form of evolution so to speak.  The direwolves initiate the contact with children when their minds are malleable; change the brain; add the third eye capabilities and this shows up as a genetic trait over time with characteristic behaviors.  Something that a medieval people would call the wolf blood.  It's not about a literal infusion of direwolf blood or genetic material.

Beautifully put!

[wolfmaid7]

10 hours ago, LynnS said:

I don't think it's about altering the blood so much as it is altering the mind.  A form of evolution so to speak.  The direwolves initiate the contact with children when their minds are malleable; change the brain; add the third eye capabilities and this shows up as a genetic trait over time with characteristic behaviors.  Something that a medieval people would call the wolf blood.  It's not about a literal infusion of direwolf blood or genetic material.

Buying this and then some....Nobody had sex with a wolf people.

7 hours ago, Black Crow said:

This is something we've discussed in the distant past and yes, I agree. There's the bitter rivalry between the houses and of course young Ramsay's hobbies which so closely parallel Old Nan's stories. Another possible clue, which I haven't seen discussed, is their survival despite everything they have done to the Starks. Have they survived because they are kin?

Old Nan could be right on both counts. Some say the Nights King was a Bolton says she, but he was a Stark of Winterfell. Both can be true if he was a Stark but his son escaped to found House Bolton.

Very nice point,certainly House Bolton could have been wiped out and wasn't.May very well have been saved by the taboo surrounding Kinslaying.

4 hours ago, Tucu said:

According to the tales BR could "put on the likeness of a one-eyed dog" and "Packs of gaunt gray wolves hunted down his foes". So he was a warg too.

Edit: and before I missed Melantha Blackwood been Rickard's grandmother.

If those taes are true.Most likely they are,or someone saw a one -dog walking around KL and imagnations went wild.He may 

Coversation with Bran and Jojen.So the greenseers were more than prophetic dreamers ,that was clearly part of it.Wargs too, so yes Bloodraven would count.But noteworthy is that there are degrees to this from greatest to least.

The greenseers were more than that. They were wargs as well, as you are, and the greatest of them could wear the skins of any beast that flies or swims or crawls, and could look through the eyes of the weirwoods as well, and see the truth that lies beneath the world.

1 hour ago, PrettyPig said:

I think the solution may not be with the current Stark generation's mother, but with their grandmother - or perhaps the union of Stark cousins (Rickard and Lyarra) that produced Ned and his siblings.  I've noted here before that this particular marriage was somewhat unusual in the known lineage of House Stark:  not only is it a cousin marriage, it's a marriage of cousins descended entirely from a single Stark bloodline - Cregan.  

It goes Cregan + Lynarra = Brandon / Beron / Rodrik  -> Lyarra & Willam ->Rickard.   Note that Lyarra Stark, NedCo's mom, is the daughter of the "Wandering Wolf".   Then, of course, we have Brandon, Ned, Lyanna, and Benjen borne from her.

If the maternal line is the important blood as I suspect, then it makes perfect sense for Jon to be gifted with the ability as well as Ned's children should he indeed be the son of Lyanna.

Very true..

1 hour ago, Tucu said:

I think that the Blackwood maternal bloodline is playing its part as being a magical catalyst.

You mix a Targ (Aegon IV) with a Blackwood (Melissa) and you get Bloodraven, a greenseer

You mix a Stark (Willam) with a Blackwood (Melantha) and a few generations later you get 5 wargs and a greenseer

You mix a Targ again  (Aegon V) with Blackwood (Betha) and you get Duncan meddling with wood witches, Aegon following the advice of those witches to try to hatch dragons and the prophecy that The Prince that was Promised will come from Jaehaerys line. Given his marriage with her sister Shaera and the marriage of the children Aerys and Rhaella, Daenarys the Mother of Dragons has a good amount of Blackwood blood in her. And if Jon is Rhaegar's son, he would have an extra shot of Blackwood in him.

Well you mix Aegon V and Black Betha and get Robert,Stannis and Renly.

Robert (who i think is actually Jon's father) has helped produce the rival to BR/Bran.And to add more ,Stannis is currently intimately involved with a Shadow binder who has designs and ambitions on a global scale.

[LynnS]

4 minutes ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Buying this and then some....Nobody had sex with a wolf people

LOL! Most of this is about an altered state of consciousness:  dreaming, coma dreams, fever dreams, drug induced visions, Hodor's condition. etc.  I\d eve go so far as to say that peering into a flame for hours on end is a state of self-hypnosis.

[Matthew.]

If the maternal line was disproportionately important to magic, then whatever magic it is that Targs inherit should have ended at the generation of Aegon V, who married a Blackwood instead of a sister.

More broadly speaking, GRRM plays fast and loose with the rules of his magic, so what's the plot pay off to imposing a rule on his world that magic must be inherited through the matrilineal line?

I do think there is some element of genetic inheritance at work, because if all it took was an animal initiating the psychic bond, then Westeros would be lousy with skinchangers--everyone with a beloved family pet or a trusted horse would be unintentionally bonding, like young Varamyr and his dog.

[LynnS]

1 minute ago, Matthew. said:

If the maternal line was disproportionately important to magic, then whatever magic it is that Targs inherit should have ended at the generation of Aegon V, who married a Blackwood instead of a sister.

More broadly speaking, GRRM plays fast and loose with the rules of his magic, so what's the plot pay off to imposing a rule on his world that magic must be inherited through the matrilineal line?

I do think there is some element of genetic inheritance at work, because if all it took was an animal initiating the psychic bond, then Westeros would be lousy with skinchangers--everyone with a beloved family pet or a trusted horse would be unintentionally bonding, like young Varamyr and his dog.

Certainly, and this might have something to do with the pact and that direwolves show up when greenseers need them to.

[Matthew.]

12 minutes ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Buying this and then some....Nobody had sex with a wolf people

No, but on the other hand, the face of the Winterfell heart tree is described using a lot of the same language that's used to describe typical Stark features; long sad face, long solemn face, etc. I'm not...errr, saying that some distant Stark fucked a tree, but I do believe that a Stark was sacrificed to consecrate the Godswood/heart tree, and it's this bond to the Old Gods that allows them to inherit their power.

Edit: To further pile on to what Lynn said above, I think that this was a Pact requirement for the early tribes of men that made their agreement with the CotF, a blood price paid to restore the Old Gods and establish new heart trees to undo the damage that the war had done, since the CotF had precious few lives to spare for blood sacrifice. The trade off is that men inherit sorcery.