You Are Bowen Marsh. Choose Your Next Move.

[kimim]

Marsh was never believable for me.

OK, I'm Bowen Marsh. I know that ice demons and zombies are about to attack the Wall. I know that if they make it past the Wall, it's apocalypse for humans. I know that the Watch is down to a few hundred men. I know that most of the forts on the Wall are empty, going to ruin. But there's hope! The present LC has found men and women willing to protect the Wall. The LC also got a loan, which means no one will starve this winter.

I praise my LC's wisdom, and do his bidding.

When the Boltons (may they rot) threaten the Wall from the south, I follow my LC's commands, and hope that he gets the bastards before they get to the Wall and kill us all.

The last thing I'd do is to assassinate the LC and create chaos. WHO does something like that?

[khal drogon]

9 minutes ago, kimim said:

Marsh was never beplvable dfor me.

OK, I'm Bpen Marsh. I know that ice demons and zombies are about to attack the Wall. I know that if they make it past the Wall, it's apocalypse for humans. I know that the Watch is down to a few hundred men. I know that most of the forts on the Wall are empty, going to ruin. But there's hope! The present LC has found men and women willing to protect the Wall. The LC also got a loan, which means no one will starve this winter.

I praise my LC's wisdom, and do his bidding.

When the Boltons (may they rot) threaten the Wall from the south, I follow my LC's commands, and hope that he gets the bastards before they get to the Wall and kill us all.

The last thing I'd do is to assassinate the LC and create chaos. WHO does something like that?

Boltons threatened Jon not the wall. Anyway Bowen is obligated to help Jon if he made a case without involving oathbreaking. Bowen was in a critical situation. Even if he sided with Jon he risk getting killed in the case he fails.

Also there was a lot of problems siding with Jon. Jon's host need food supplies which involves taking from the winter supplies from the wall which would push them to the risk of starving. Also it is not a guaranteed win for Jon. Ramsay has Winterfell and a superior army. There is no reason to hope he will win.

I agree that his execution is shoddy but what he did was right for the watch.

[kimim]

45 minutes ago, khal drogon said:

Boltons threatened Jon not the wall. Anyway Bowen is obligated to help Jon if he made a case without involving oathbreaking. Bowen was in a critical situation. Even if he sided with Jon he risk getting killed in the case he fails.

Also there was a lot of problems siding with Jon. Jon's host need food supplies which involves taking from the winter supplies from the wall which would push them to the risk of starving. Also it is not a guaranteed win for Jon. Ramsay has Winterfell and a superior army. There is no reason to hope he will win.

I agree that his execution is shoddy but what he did was right for the watch.

Ramsay asked for Stannis's wife, Mel, Shireen, Val, and Mance's baby. If the Watch refuses to hand these people over, Ramsay is coming, not just for Jon, but for the Watch. Of course the Watch could turn women, a baby, and a little girl over to a raping flayer, but my feeling is that even Marsh wouldn't make that deal--at least not openly. Without some kind of  deal, the Watch is screwed, as Castle Black can't be defended from the south. So Jon is leaving to prevent Ramsay from reaching the Castle, and he is thoughtfully leaving with wildlings, not with crows.

Even if I wanted Jon dead, even if I were suicidal enough to want the wildlings gone, I wouldn't assassinate Jon just before he leaves. Best case scenario for me is one where Jon and the wildlings defeat Ramsay, but Jon dies in battle. Another option: Let Jon and the wildlings leave, then rush a messenger over to Ramsay to warn him about Jon, make a deal with him, and hand him his victims in secret. With the wildling warriors safely out of CB, I can then hold their wives and children hostage, etc. I have options. Assassinating Jon before he leaves reduces my life expectancy to seconds, ends all my options, as I represent only one faction of the crows, and I am horribly outnumbered by the wildlings, who have sided with Jon. I just killed their guy. I am dead.

Re food: Jon gets a loan from the Iron Bank, which makes it possible for him to import food and keep everyone fed through the winter. Marsh knows this.

EDIT: Against all this, there is the fact that the apocalypse is nigh. The LC broke his oath. The LC also managed to man the Wall with people who answer to him, not to me. So I sit and I weigh it out: Do I preserve the letter of the law and remove the LC for oathbreaking and the wildlings for breaking with NW tradition, leaving the Wall relatively undefended, or do I preserve the spirit of the law, assume saving humanity is my primary duty, and hope that Jon defeats the Boltons, returns, and we all work together to defend the Wall? I'd do the latter.

 

[khal drogon]

1 hour ago, kimim said:

Ramsnay asked for Stannis's wife, Mel, Shireen, Val, and Mance's baby. If the Watch refuses to hand these people over, Ramsay is coming, not just for Jon, but for the Watch. Of course the Watch could turn women, a baby, and a little girl over to a raping flayer, but my feeling is that even Marsh wouldn't make that deal--at least not openly. Without some kind of  deal, the Watch is screwed, as Castle Black can't be defended from the south. So Jon is leaving to prevent Ramsay from reaching the Castle, and he is thoughtfully leaving with wildlings, not with crows.

Even if I wanted Jon dead, even if I were suicidal enough to want the wildlings gone, I wouldn't assassinate Jon just before he leaves. Best case scenario for me is one where Jon and the wildlings defeat Ramsay, but Jon dies in battle. Another option: Let Jon and the wildlings leave, then rush a messenger over to Ramsay to warn him about Jon, make a deal with him, and hand him his victims in secret. With the wildling warriors safely out of CB, I can then hold their wives and children hostage, etc. I have options. Assassinating Jon before he leaves reduces my life expectancy to seconds, ends all my options, as I represent only one faction of the crows, and I am horribly outnumbered by the wildlings, who have sided with Jon. I just killed their guy. I am dead.

Re food: Jon gets a loan from the Iron Bank, which makes it possible for him to import food and keep everyone fed through the winter. Marsh knows this.

EDIT: Against all this, there is the fact that the apocalypse is nigh. The LC broke his oath. The LC also managed to man the Wall with people who answer to him, not to me. So I sit and I weigh it out: Do I preserve the letter of the law and remove the LC for oathbreaking and the wildlings for breaking with NW tradition, leaving the Wall relatively undefended, or do I preserve the spirit of the law, assume saving humanity is my primary duty, and hope that Jon defeats the Boltons, returns, and we all work together to defend the Wall? I'd do the latter.

 

I agree with the point about letting Jon go and warn Ramsay about Jon affirming Ramsay his loyalty. This is the most pragmatic plan he could have attempted. He was put in a terrible situation. From his POV handing over those people is the best thing to do other than hoping that Jon would win.

Re food: Anyway the Iron Bank lend money for the Nights watch to let them buy food. As of the start of ADWD the NW had supply of food for an year,a bulk of which Jon had to take for immediate supply. Bravoosi money is in coin which is useless if you can't trade it because of war.And what would the Iron bank do if the NW used that money on an army south. A rogue organisation with a suicidal goal is not within the intetest of the Iron Bank. For that he had to dissociate the Watch from Jon. And it makes sense he was cautious enough not to bet on the losing horse. There is a reason food is an important part of the Wall storyline.

[devilish]

I would make some investigations on whose this Ramsey Snow is. Once I do that, I will bend the knee to Jon and support him 100%. Once Ramsey set his sights to the wall, there's no way, that this bastard would relent with just Jon Snow's death. 

A Jonny foreigner must have loads of courage to kill Ned's son, in the North and while surrounded by a horde of Wildlings who do not like you very much. 

[Orphalesion]

If I still had my current mindset? Well, then I wouldn't be at the Wall in the first place since I consider death, torture and Greyscale to be preferable to the Night's Watch.

However if I was Bowen Marsh at the moment of the announcement I'd support Jon, because when it comes down to it any change in the NiW's current statusquo would be a  good thing. I'd might ask for release from my vows and marriage to a Wildling woman in return.

Seriously, Fuck the Night's Watch.

[El Guapo]

I would have someone fetch me a block so I could lop off Jon's head. While I am at I would lop off Ghost's head too.  Both would make a nice gift to Ramsey Snow.

[Runaway Penguin]

Ramsey would show his appreciation by flaying you the last and maybe turning you into  new Reek since the old one got broken. Of course if the Wildlings did not get you first. Or the Others

[Orphalesion]

2 minutes ago, Runaway Penguin said:

Ramsey would show his appreciation by flaying you the last and maybe turning you into  new Reek since the old one got broken. Of course if the Wildlings did not get you first. Or the Others

Yeah the "(false, made up definition of) Honor and Tradition before Reason" in this thread makes me sad.

[Runaway Penguin]

Most of all the Tradition part. After all it is pretty clear that the tradition swung from defense against Others (and NW KNEW there are Others around. Mormont confirms it after the Craster incident and earlier Benjen mentions white Walker spotting) to defense (insufficient at that ) against wildlings.

"non interference" rule also was based on having Stark in winterfell who will back the Watch if needed - and who knows how it started. After all logically speaking while watchis not suposed to play game of thrones for itself, it should care if it has solid backing.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

4 hours ago, Orphalesion said:

Yeah the "(false, made up definition of) Honor and Tradition before Reason" in this thread makes me sad.

You shouldn't be sad. If you noticed all the negativity comes from Jon's haters which is typical. If you ask them they will tell you that Ramsey and Gregor are better human beings that Jon.

[Sydney Mae]

21 hours ago, khal drogon said:

I would let him go and alert Ramsay. Or kill him in a more discrete manner. Convince the NW that he is a traitor and try to take control of the NW. That way I have the authority in the case he returns and legally execute him. And I would have enough power to survive if the Starks are back in power because they can't attack a lord commander. Even if the Boltons rule I wouldn't have a problem. 

That is what I would do.  Let Ramsay know that everything that happened was all Jon's work and not the night watch. 

[Runaway Penguin]

Well he will still want your guests who saved your bacon while he was playing his rape games. so unless you are a terrible human being, he will still be coming for you. And if you are... Then may gods Old and New have mercy on your soul because Tormund will not

[khal drogon]

8 hours ago, Runaway Penguin said:

Well he will still want your guests who saved your bacon while he was playing his rape games. so unless you are a terrible human being, he will still be coming for you. And if you are... Then may gods Old and New have mercy on your soul because Tormund will not

The only thing that makes Bowen look bad is Ramsay being this mad, psychotic, completely unsympathetic villain. If Ramsay was not a psycho then probably it would have lead to a more interesting conflict. Now George made this completely unrealistic mad villain who might kill people for no reason to make Jon more sympathetic. 

[Orphalesion]

14 minutes ago, khal drogon said:

The only thing that makes Bowen look bad is Ramsay being this mad, psychotic, completely unsympathetic villain. If Ramsay was not a psycho then probably it would have lead to a more interesting conflict. Now George made this completely unrealistic mad villain who might kill people for no reason to make Jon more sympathetic. 

No what makes Bowen look bad is that he refuses to see the writing on the wall and insist on keeping self-destructive and antiquated traditions at a time when drastic changes and innovative thinking are needed for survival.

And for what? An imaginary oath that means nothing when shit goes down.

[khal drogon]

39 minutes ago, Orphalesion said:

No what makes Bowsen look bad is that he refuses to see the writing on the wall and inssist on keeping self-destructive and antiquated traditions at a time when drastic changes and innovative thinking are needed for survival.

And for what? An imaginary oath that means nothing when shit goes down.

I don't think Bowen care much about oaths though. He even advises Jon to be friendly with the Iron throne against Stannis because he don't want the watch to end up on the losing side. He wants the Watch to be intact and he has a hatred for wildlings which might be antique but the issues he mostly rise has nothing to do with oaths. His concerns are more about supporting traitors and bringing more mouths to feed. 

[Runaway Penguin]

The traitors saved the Wall when everyone else was busy playing thrones. and it is better to have mouths to feed than have a ton of fresh meat puppets to fight off.

[the trees have eyes]

10 hours ago, Runaway Penguin said:

The traitors saved the Wall when everyone else was busy playing thrones. and it is better to have mouths to feed than have a ton of fresh meat puppets to fight off.

Indeed.  Not to mention the Watch number 300-500.  How are these men supposed to defend the realms of men without the alliances Jon formed?  Marsh is a stubborn old man who is unable to embrace or even understand the reality of the situation they are all in.  GRRM wants us to understand his actions (the same way we are meant to understand Walder Frey or Roose Bolton) but not to agree with them.  Every time someone says Jon betrayed the Watch "for Arya" while Bowen is trying to save the day I feel we are reading different stories.

[khal drogon]

On 8/19/2016 at 11:18 AM, Runaway Penguin said:

The traitors saved the Wall when everyone else was busy playing thrones. and it is better to have mouths to feed than have a ton of fresh meat puppets to fight off.

Do you know hunger would defeat an army faster than anything else.

Maybe he don't see the bigger picture. But neither Jon or Marsh are completely right here. The traitor or not as one of the claimants Stannis did his duty. But that doesn't mean the Watch is in anyway indebted to him and obliged to help him. If the Watch decided to chose a side then it must be ready to suffer the consequences associated with it. Anyway that was the point of the story. Marsh shouldn't be seen as someone who was in the wrong because he couldn't see the picture Jon did. He saw a different picture than Jon's. He represents Jon's mistakes. Unfortunately Jon's biggest blunders are overlooked because he is trying to do the right thing and Marsh gets the blame. 

Also did the traitors really saved the wall? Wildlings were never a danger unless Mance had the horn of Winter. In reality Stannis didn't save the Watch. All I could see he was the one great beneficiary of everything that happened in the wall. By his superior army he crushed the wildlings though he was the one who admitted them through the wall which makes his saving meaningless. If anyone he had saved it's the wildlings. 

 

[Anton Martell]

If I'm in the position of Bowen Marsh: I say nothing to Lord Snow, I let him go and I reinforce the Wall from the South, while trying to get all remaining brothers to trust me and to support me whatever happens next. Maybe Jon dies, maybe not. But the best course of action if to stay, and begin to put yourself in a solid position later on, no matter what happens.

 

If I'm Bowen Marsh himself, and I have to act according to his personality: I do more or less the same, but I also kill as many wildlings as I can.