Daenerys's Fate and the Fire She Must Light to Love

[Free Northman Reborn]

16 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

@Free Northman Reborn

That is way too far-fetched for me. I like it simple. I like it recognizable. I expect George to actually enable the reader to make the connection between Daenerys Targaryen and the corpse in the ship, blue flower on the wall of ice, the stone beast breathing shadow fire, etc. just as we already did with Stannis and Aegon.

If those prophecies are, in the end, as vague as you imply then neither Daenerys herself nor we, the readers, are likely ever going to figure out what was actually meant. And that doesn't seem to be the point of prophetic visions in this series. The Ghost of High Heart's visions and prophecies are supposed to be deciphered. As are Maggy's, Melisandre's visions, etc. There is a clear meaning to all that.

Going down your route obscures things.

No, you are simply picking and choosing when to interpret things literally and when figuratively to suit your own views.

How is Drogo "Fire"? How is the corpse on the ship's prow "Fire"? And yet they should be, if you interpret Dany as their literal Bride.

And further, how is Rhaegar equal to Death? Or Viserys? Are either of them a guy in a black hood carrying a scythe? Nope. ALL of the prophecies are figurative, symbolic, obscure, call it what you will.

There are four reference words in the above.

Daughter

Death

Bride

Fire.

You interpret daughter symbolically. You interpret Death symbolically. You even interpret Fire symbolically. But for some reason (because it suits you), you just decide to interpret Bride literally.

 It is your interpretation that is inconsistent.

As for the blue flower. The fact that it fills the air with sweetness can far more appropriately be interpreted that it brings peace, prosperity and other "good" things to the realm at large, than the rather silly interpretation that Jon literally smells nice to Daenerys. I mean come on. Give Martin some credit here.

 

 

[The Fattest Leech]

1 hour ago, lojzelote said:

I'm no Lord Varys, but if you allow me to share my thoughts with you...

No problem. I prefer thoughts and discussion over arguments any day. Arguing just bores the tears out of me and exposes uncertainty.

I only have a quick minute because I have to get ready for work, so I may just have time to hit a few points here first, and maybe a little more later.

Also, please don't confuse me with the often seen "Dany haters". Just because I see things differently, it does not mean I am a "hater".

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First of all, Dany is a very religiously tolerant person, which almost certainly has roots in her childhood, when she traveled from a city to city and has encountered various gods and faiths, but never stayed anywhere for long. She knows her family comes from the Seven Kingdoms, where the predominant religion is the Seven, so she honors them, at least nominally. When she lives with the Dothraki, she adapts and accepts their beliefs. When she rules Meereen, she agrees to conduct a ceremony in the rites of the Meereenese gods.

The religion of R'hollorism went directly to her father years ago because they saw a need to make contact with the Targs for some reason. The big misstep with that is they sent the drunken sot Thoros, who instead became better drinking buddies with Robert.

So the connection between the god of fire and the Targs has already tried establishing itself before.

Plus, the Targs of olden days saw the dragons as gods. That is where they got the names for their dragons from as well. So we have another link to dragons-fire-gods.

Back in AGOT, Dany tells us that she has been studying with, or learning from the priestesses while out in the Dothraki sea. I will find the quotes for this later of you want, but it shows that Dany is interested in and makes an effort to involve herself in magic.

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She is cosmopolitan in her upbringing and beliefs and quite irreligious. I very much doubt that she will become an outspoken champion of any faith or that she is going to force her faith upon others. Even if she 'converts' to R'hllorism, then I doubt that the conversion will be any different from her 'conversion' to the Dothraki or Meereenese gods, or even the Great Shepherd.

There is a chance that these religions have different names for the same "deity", and they have been waiting for that "deity" to arrive, and that could be Dany. Dany will not be promoting any one named religion or another because she will be the "deity" herself. I am not saying she will go around in red robes and claiming to be a follower of R'hollor, and sorry if I was not clear about that earlier.

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As for "Fire and blood"... that one is often used as a proof that she is now the Devil and out there to burn innocent children... well, no, she is not.

Well, I myself have never made the claim she will burn a child. I do think Rhaego was her blood sacrifice to bring back her "king", just as Mel will burn Shireen as a sacrifice to bring back a "king". Not every parallel clue has to happen at the same tick in the timeline, it just has to happen.

Just as Mel says the red comet was the herald for Stannis (which we know she is wrong about), Dany thinks the red comet is for her.

• "You are he who must stand against the Other. The one whose coming was prophesied five thousand years ago. The red comet was your herald. You are the prince that was promised, and if you fail the world fails with you." Melisandre went to him, her red lips parted, her ruby throbbing. "Give me this boy," she whispered, "and I will give you your kingdom."
• "We follow the comet," Dany told her khalasar. Once it was said, no word was raised against it. They had been Drogo's people, but they were hers now. The Unburnt, they called her, and Mother of Dragons. Her word was their law.
• "The comet's so bright you can see it by day now," Sam said, shading his eyes with a fistful of books.
  [Jon] "Never mind about comets, it's maps the Old Bear wants."

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I don't know how much you are familiar with GRRM's novel Fevre Dream, but that one shares a similar theme. Its protagonist (and ultimately a hero) is Abner March (and he's nothing like Bowen March, so put the haystick away ), who is a ship captain in the US of the 19th century. He doesn't care for slavery overmuch, but his mild discomfort does not lead him to any actual actions to attempt to liberate his fellow human beings. That is, until the events of the book transpire. In the duration of the book events, he becomes an abolitionist, because he comes to understand how terrible slavery truly is and that it touches him as well.

I have not read Fevre Dream yet, but I am rather familiar with several of George's other stories, and a major theme in many of those stories is how extremism "consumes". Whether it be religion (it most often is), or the love of someone, it consumes... and sometimes quite literally and bodily.

And since you talked about slavery, that is often a slighter topic in these other books as well, and it is also in conjunction with religion such as in House of the Worm, Bitterblooms, Dying of the Light, etc.

We see Mel "enslaving" Mance when she has him wear the ruby cuff. And Mel was a slave at one point, and she also wears a ruby, so does she have a "master" who is controlling her?

And Dany and Mel both have a vision/dream where family member comes to them with some info, and both Mel and Dany wake with blood running down their thighs.

Dany also gives Drogo a 'kiss' before he is resurrected, just as she gives him a 'kiss' before she gives him final death.

And Dany being a bride of fire could honestly be a parallel to Bran being wed to the trees. I love Bloodraven to pieces, but I question his true motives (but I am still his fan), and at one point Bran sits at a fire and stares in to it while under BR training. Is this connected?

• She had sensed the truth of it long ago, Dany thought as she took a step closer to the conflagration, but the brazier had not been hot enough. The flames writhed before her like the women who had danced at her wedding, whirling and singing and spinning their yellow and orange and crimson veils, fearsome to behold, yet lovely, so lovely, alive with heat. Dany opened her arms to them, her skin flushed and glowing. This is a wedding, too, she thought. Mirri Maz Duur had fallen silent. The godswife thought her a child, but children grow, and children learn.

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There's no reason to believe she will fundamentally change and become some sort of a pious, religious figure that pushes her religious agenda on the uninterested folk of Westeros. It is possible that the South of Westeros wil become less religiously tolerant with the rise of the Faith Militant, and they may have a problem with an openly religiously tolerant or religiously apathetic ruler, but in that case the fault would be on their side.

 

We don't know that. Dany does think she is owed the throne and it is hers by right. This can drive a person mad, a la Viserys for one.

If Jon and Dany are parallels, and if Jon's "death" will make him more wild and wolf-like (winter is coming), we should expect a similar change in Dany to be more dragon-like after whatever is going to happen at the Dosh Khaleen that should be so huge that it will bind all of the different khalisars together, and get 100,000 Dothraki screamers to follow her across the dreaded ocean. Fire and blood.

ADDING: Plus, Dany as a girl was "killed" and then the woman was born during the dragon pyre. The prophecies that fit Dany the most were born in Essos, just as Dany was.

What does the word R'hollor mean? Do we have a name meaning? (serious question)

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Also, Jon was not killed for letting the wildlings through , that was but one small component of that, if at all, but I don't want to derail the thread completely.

Correct, Jon letting the free folk through was the straw that broke the mutineers back and Marsh acted hastily. In truth, we readers have been told since ASOS, and before Jon was voted LC, that there were three/four main Wall antagonists that were plotting to kill Jon all along. Sometimes we readers were literally told they wanted Jon dead. Whatever plan there was, Marsh sorta, probably ruined it and acted mostly on his own because he saw an opportunity. But yes, another thread

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And yup, he died. GRRM had it planned already in AGoT. See below (if you're interested, of course).sexual) relationship that in two out of three (? arguably, if we count Sansa and Baelish) result in a child and tragedy.

Btw, GRRM foreshadowed Jon's death experience ingeniously.

Well, since Jon is a child of Rhaegar and a son of the north and a warg (this part is important), George foreshadowed his "death" using people that he is actually connected to. Rhaegar, Robb, and Bran. Past, present, future. Even down to the details of how their bodies fell and what their last words were.

If you are interested, and since I am short on time, I did lay out the past, present, future death here if you want to read it.

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Dany and Jon have a dichotomy; it's not 100%, but most of the time Dany is connected to fire and life, while Jon is connected to ice and death. When Ice and Fire can hate, they can also mate.

That full quote is this:

Bran made a face at her. "But you just said you hated them."

"Why can't it be both?" Meera reached up to pinch his nose.

"Because they're different," he insisted. "Like night and day, or ice and fire."

"If ice can burn," said Jojen in his solemn voice, "then love and hate can mate. Mountain or marsh, it makes no matter. The land is one."

"One," his sister agreed, "but over wrinkled."

And while I agree that if you take just a few words from it, then it seems like it is talking about Jon and Dany alone, the bigger picture is how misunderstanding people because of differences has caused strife for no reason. It is over wrinkled. Worked to death for no good end result. And it ends with the main point, "the land is one," and this lends itself to the idea that the free folk are not as bad as southern people have been taught, and something Jon admits to during and after his time on his wildling "vision quest"... which is why he lets them through the wall... to keep them safe because they are men like the rest of Westeros is.

 

It seems that on the surface, Dany and Jon have a lot in common and are given similar settings and missions, but they handle each mission differently. This seems to point to them maybe working together to save Westeros, each bringing their own talent, but not long run afterwards. That is where I think the larger, imprinted characteristics she shares with Mel (fire magic really), and even Bran come in to play.

 

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So, I think that Dany's fires are:

1, for life - clearly the birth of the dragons

2, for death - burns the khals and/or the slavers?

3, to love - I think that either she wins the love of the Westerosi by stopping the wight army, or - more figuratively? - she thaws Jon's frozen heart; or perhaps the former does the latter?

Could be on these. I think her healing the rift between House Targaryen and House Blackfyre may be just as important, as we see Jon doing by healing the rift between those south of the wall and those north of the wall.

By night, all cloaks are black. The entire country will have to work together to survive because the land is one.

[Lord Varys]

13 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Well, she is embracing fire as the author says, soooo? Maybe she will be seen as godlike since she is already on a Jesus-resurrection path. This would be a great set up for an ice and fire mix up, as well as a Targaryen/Blackfyre final resolution.

See @lojzelote post. She is much more eloquent than I am.

I could add that there are SSM's by George were he himself connects fire to passion and life, which a both very positive qualities.

Daenerys embracing 'fire and blood' in her relations with the Dothraki and the slavers isn't all that bad nor is it something that I'd not expect Jon to do, too, once he learns who he is. 'Fire and blood' are the Targaryen words, after all. If he is Rhaegar's son then they shape his destiny as much as they shape Daenerys'.

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That is the key word, right!

Well, there is some kind of system to those prophetic clues. They are concrete references to future events that are reasonably easy to decipher. The snakes in Sansa's hair are pretty straightforward, too. We don't have to dance around that fact and neither does it make sense to see the Undying visions outside of context.

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But seriously, here you go again claiming Jon has no purpose when if they are sharing duties, then one has one job and the other has another. Equal.

I was saying 'if you favor a one savior interpretation'. I don't do that. I think there are three working together, not just one person.

If you insist there is only one savior, the promised prince then it is clearly a promised princess, Daenerys. Arguing against that in light of the evidence is stupid.

But I actually recognize that Jon Snow is not only relevant to the plot but also to the prophecy thing due to his parentage and connection to Daenerys (made evident in the vision we are talking about). Thus my view actually is that they will work together.

Keep in mind that it that 'the promised prince' might in the end turn out to be not all that important. Daenerys is the Mother of Dragons and all but she is no warrior. She is not likely going to kill even one Other in single combat nor is she likely ever to wield a Valyrian steel sword in battle.

That will be Jon's job. In that sense he could become a much more crucial/active figure in the fighting parts of the story without ever being an important theme of prophecy, visions, and dreams.

Things won't be all that equal in the grand scale of thing. Dany is a woman. She is likely to be the ruler simply because of the power she is amassing right now but that doesn't mean that she is going to command her own armies into battle. She certainly will fly Drogon into battle and rain fire down on her enemies but that's only a rather small (yet very important) part of warfare.

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The books even tell us that the Last Hero (? I could be mixing it up), even he had to have help. So no, I am not buying Dany as the sole saviour.

Me neither. The Last Hero had companions but all of them died even before he found the Children (if that's what he did in the end). How the story continues from there we don't know.

Perhaps it is going to turn out to be as trivial as the Children forcing the Others to call of their holocaust because the Last Hero got through to them? They might have been still strong enough back then to stop them. We have no clue how the Long Night ended.

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It is there. Open up, my friend.

Jon has no magical talents he does not share with his half-siblings/cousin, and both Bran and Arya beat him at skinchanging right now. He has never worked a spell like Daenerys.

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Bran. He will be a warrior as he wanted. No doubt.

Perhaps if he makes Hodor his permanent abode/usual working place. But the broken boy is not going to be repaired. Bloodraven has made that clear. This is not a fairy-tale story. And Bran is already so much more than a warrior ever could hope to be. You don't need to be a warrior yourself if you can possess a warrior - or perhaps even multiple warriors at the same time.

To put it in understandable terms: Bran is Professor X, not Wolverine.

2 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

No, you are simply picking and choosing when to interpret things literally and when figuratively to suit your own views.

No, my views were formed by the interpretation of those texts. I have those opinions for a very long time. I don't want the story to go in a certain direction, I think it goes in a certain direction. That is a difference.

2 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

How is Drogo "Fire"? How is the corpse on the ship's prow "Fire"? And yet they should be, if you interpret Dany as their literal Bride.

Don't you read my posts? I've given you three possible interpretation for the meaning of 'bride of fire'. It doesn't have to mean that she has to marry fire. She can just be the fiery bride HERSELF, marrying dudes who have NOTHING TO DO WITH FIRE THEMSELVES.

2 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

And further, how is Rhaegar equal to Death? Or Viserys? Are either of them a guy in a black hood carrying a scythe? Nope. ALL of the prophecies are figurative, symbolic, obscure, call it what you will.

Me have prophecies connected to visions symbolizing people (or perhaps concepts). The wedding to Drogo. The false king and savior Stannis. The false king and savior Aegon. It is not that difficult. You have to decipher the symbols but you don't have equate them.

Daenerys Targaryen is the daughter of death because death led to her birth and rebirth. Jon Snow could be described as the son of death to if we got visions of Brandon, Rickard, and Rhaegar dying.

2 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

There are four reference words in the above.

Daughter

Death

Bride

Fire.

You interpret daughter symbolically. You interpret Death symbolically. You even interpret Fire symbolically. But for some reason (because it suits you), you just decide to interpret Bride literally.

 It is your interpretation that is inconsistent.

As for the blue flower. The fact that it fills the air with sweetness can far more appropriately be interpreted that it brings peace, prosperity and other "good" things to the realm at large, than the rather silly interpretation that Jon literally smells nice to Daenerys. I mean come on. Give Martin some credit here.

You are confusing the prophecy complexes. The daughter of death visions are not thematically connected to the bride of fire or slayer of lies complexes.

That is made clear by the author who actually summarizes/characterizes a bunch of visions with a prophecy. And those visions, in turn, are used to explain the meaning of the prophecies to Daenerys. She explicitly asked the Undying for that if you recall. At first she only got prophecies she did not understand, then visions helping her with the interpretation of the later prophecies.

[Lost Melnibonean]

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The candle was almost gone. Less than an inch remained, jutting from a pool of warm melted wax to cast its light over the queen’s bed.

The flame had begun to gutter. It will go out before much longer, Dany realized, and when it does another night will be at its end.

Dawn always came too soon.

Daenerys, Dance 43

So, whose light will go out of the world before the night ends? 

[Lost Melnibonean]

21 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

If you insist there is only one savior, the promised prince then it is clearly a promised princess, Daenerys. Arguing against that in light of the evidence is stupid.

So, you are saying that anyone who believes that Jon Snow is the promised prince is not just wrong but stupid?

[GloubieBoulga]

25 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

At first she only got prophecies she did not understand, then visions helping her with the interpretation of the later prophecies.

Help her ? I have strong doubts about the fact the Undying want to help her in any manner : 

 

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. . . three heads has the dragon . . . the ghost chorus yammered inside her skull with never a lip moving, never a breath stirring the still blue air. . . . mother of dragons . . . child of storm . . . The whispers became a swirling song. . . . three fires must you light . . . one for life and one for death and one to love . . . Her own heart was beating in unison to the one that floated before her, blue and corrupt . . . three mounts must you ride . . . one to bed and one to dread and one to love . . . The voices were growing louder, she realized, and it seemed her heart was slowing, and even her breath. . . . three treasons will you know . . . once for blood and once for gold and once for love . . .

(...)

"I don't . . ." Her voice was no more than a whisper, almost as faint as theirs. What was happening to her? "I don't understand," she said, more loudly. Why was it so hard to talk here? "Help me. Show me."

. . . help her . . . the whispers mocked. . . . show her . . .

[coherent complexe of visions, and then :]

Faster and faster the visions came, one after the other, until it seemed as if the very air had come alive.

(...)

Ten thousand slaves lifted bloodstained hands as she raced by on her silver, riding like the wind. "Mother!" they cried. "Mother, mother!" They were reaching for her, touching her, tugging at her cloak, the hem of her skirt, her foot, her leg, her breast. They wanted her, needed her, the fire, the life, and Dany gasped and opened her arms to give herself to them . . .

But then black wings buffeted her round the head, and a scream of fury cut the indigo air, and suddenly the visions were gone, ripped away, and Dany's gasp turned to horror. The Undying were all around her, blue and cold, whispering as they reached for her, pulling, stroking, tugging at her clothes, touching her with their dry cold hands, twining their fingers through her hair. All the strength had left her limbs. She could not move. Even her heart had ceased to beat. She felt a hand on her bare breast, twisting her nipple. Teeth found the soft skin of her throat. A mouth descended on one eye, licking, sucking, biting . . .

 

 

Undying are clearly hypnotise her with her own visions (who are linked to her soul and blood, I mean), just to take her life : she is very younger and safier than the old and rotten blue heart in their room ^^

But this confirms that you're right to separate the different complexes of the all "interview" with the Undying. The words for "mother of dragons" aren't illustrated nor explained with the following visions. And maybe they are other "complexes of visions" but Daenerys just can no more see them nor thinking because she is too weak for that, and very near to death.  

[Free Northman Reborn]

27 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

You are confusing the prophecy complexes. The daughter of death visions are not thematically connected to the bride of fire or slayer of lies complexes.

That is made clear by the author who actually summarizes/characterizes a bunch of visions with a prophecy. And those visions, in turn, are used to explain the meaning of the prophecies to Daenerys. She explicitly asked the Undying for that if you recall. At first she only got prophecies she did not understand, then visions helping her with the interpretation of the later prophecies.

Gobbledygook. I am confusing nothing.

Daugther of Death is linked to the three visions - Rhago as the adult he would have been, of Viserys dying, and of Rhaegar dying. Bride of Fire is linked to three visions - her silver horse, the corpse on the ship and the blue flower in the Wall.

You are deciding based on your own interpretation which need to be taken literally and which figuratively.

[Darkstream]

41 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

If you insist there is only one savior, the promised prince then it is clearly a promised princess, Daenerys. Arguing against that in light of the evidence is stupid.

Shame Lord Varys, you are not playing very nicely.

[Lord Varys]

31 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

So, you are saying that anyone who believes that Jon Snow is the promised prince is not just wrong but stupid?

If he or she ignore all the obvious clues pointing to Dany, yeah, they are not just wrong but stupid. That's also the term you would describe a detective who explains a bloody knife in the apartment of a main suspect with the man cutting himself or slaughtering a pig there (of which there is no trace). There is a reason why we follow Occam's Razor. New information can change things but if you say right now 'I conclude on the basis of the textual evidence that it is more likely that Jon Snow is the promised prince rather than Daenerys' you are stupid if you are honest (and not just expressing your wish that this should be so).

25 minutes ago, GloubieBoulga said:

Help her ? I have strong doubts about the fact the Undying want to help her in any manner : 

Sure, but they were using true visions and prophecies as a means to lure her into the trap. We actually have seen some of the prophecies/vision come true (both past and future visions) making it quite clear that they are reliable.

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And maybe they are other "complexes of visions" but Daenerys just can no more see them nor thinking because she is too weak for that, and very near to death.  

And maybe not? Why should we speculate about stuff we will never know?

23 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Gobbledygook. I am confusing nothing.

Daugther of Death is linked to the three visions - Rhago as the adult he would have been, of Viserys dying, and of Rhaegar dying. Bride of Fire is linked to three visions - her silver horse, the corpse on the ship and the blue flower in the Wall.

You are deciding based on your own interpretation which need to be taken literally and which figuratively.

But those visions and prophecy have nothing to do with the 'bride of fire' prophecy and visions. That the various vision complexes are thematically connected to a prophecy is clear, and some of the complexes are more and some other less figurative.

Daughter of death clearly is rather figurative in the sense that she most definitely isn't the daughter of some guy named death.

Slayer of lies is also figurative in the sense that you simply cannot slay a lie literally.

And there are also no brides of fire in any literal sense of the word. But it is quite clear that the visions are connected in a fashion to the prophecies Daenerys herself and the reader is supposed to decipher. And thus the level of complexity is not going to be all that enormous. The vision is one piece and when it comes true in real life we and Daenerys will be able to identify it. The stone beast, the cloth dragon, the blue-eyed king, the corpse in the ship or the blue flower will be identifiable as such when they show (and some of them already did).

[Free Northman Reborn]

9 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

If he or she ignore all the obvious clues pointing to Dany, yeah, they are not just wrong but stupid. That's also the term you would describe a detective who explains a bloody knife in the apartment of a main suspect with the man cutting himself or slaughtering a pig there (of which there is no trace). There is a reason why we follow Occam's Razor. New information can change things but if you say right now 'I conclude on the basis of the textual evidence that it is more likely that Jon Snow is the promised prince rather than Daenerys' you are stupid if you are honest (and not just expressing your wish that this should be so).

Sure, but they were using true visions and prophecies as a means to lure her into the trap. We actually have seen some of the prophecies/vision come true (both past and future visions) making it quite clear that they are reliable.

And maybe not? Why should we speculate about stuff we will never know?

But those visions and prophecy have nothing to do with the 'bride of fire' prophecy and visions. That the various vision complexes are thematically connected to a prophecy is clear, and some of the complexes are more and some other less figurative.

Daughter of death clearly is rather figurative in the sense that she most definitely isn't the daughter of some guy named death.

Slayer of lies is also figurative in the sense that you simply cannot slay a lie literally.

And there are also no brides of fire in any literal sense of the word. But it is quite clear that the visions are connected in a fashion to the prophecies Daenerys herself and the reader is supposed to decipher. And thus the level of complexity is not going to be all that enormous. The vision is one piece and when it comes true in real life we and Daenerys will be able to identify it. The stone beast, the cloth dragon, the blue-eyed king, the corpse in the ship or the blue flower will be identifiable as such when they show (and some of them already did).

Well you are obviously using misdirection here to support your argument. No one is disputing that the stone beast, the cloth dragon, the blue-eyed king, the corpse on the ship or the blue flower should be identifiable as such when they show. After all, if you take the major point of disagreement here - the blue flower - then no one is disputing that it is Jon (or at least I am certainly not).

It is how they fit with the "Bride of Fire" vision which is eliciting all the disagreement. She clearly is not the Bride of literal Fire. Nor are all three visions obviously linked to Fire. So why should the "Bride" part refer to her literally marrying any of the three?

Being "wedded" to something can be a far broader term. You can be wedded to a cause. You can be associated with it. It could even mean that she is the cause of something happening. Like Jon's identity being revealed, lighting a Fire that overturns the ruling seat of Westeros.

The possibilities are numerous.

[lojzelote]

2 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

No problem. I prefer thoughts and discussion over arguments any day. Arguing just bores the tears out of me and exposes uncertainty.

I only have a quick minute because I have to get ready for work, so I may just have time to hit a few points here first, and maybe a little more later.

Also, please don't confuse me with the often seen "Dany haters". Just because I see things differently, it does not mean I am a "hater".

 

I'm glad to hear it.

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The religion of R'hollorism went directly to her father years ago because they saw a need to make contact with the Targs for some reason. The big misstep with that is they sent the drunken sot Thoros, who instead became better drinking buddies with Robert.

So the connection between the god of fire and the Targs has already tried establishing itself before.

Plus, the Targs of olden days saw the dragons as gods. That is where they got the names for their dragons from as well. So we have another link to dragons-fire-gods.

Back in AGOT, Dany tells us that she has been studying with, or learning from the priestesses while out in the Dothraki sea. I will find the quotes for this later of you want, but it shows that Dany is interested in and makes an effort to involve herself in magic.

I'm sure that plenty of historical Targaryens may have come to fervently worship Rh'llor had they exposed to the Rh'llorist learnings. But why should Dany be among them? Some historical Targaryens - such as Baelor the Blessed, Septa Rhaena, or Queen Naerys - were devout followers of the Seven, Baelor to the point of fanatism. That does not mean that Dany is going to fast herself to death like him.

You must also take into account that Rh'llorism already existed in the times of the Valyrian Freehold, but apparently it was not the predominant religion of the Valyrian dragonlords. They followed gods like Balerion, Meraxes, and Vhagar. It's in fact stated that religion did not meant much to them - gods were honored, not feared - which is very much Dany's approach. Hell, they named their pets after their gods. Dragons may be terrifying predators, but to Valyrians they were their mounts that bent to their will and obeyed their commands. I have no idea if the ancient Greeks or Romans called their horses and hounds after the gods of their pantheon, but I'm sure that in the Christian or Islamic world such a thing would bring much outrage (in fact, I remember a case from a few years ago, where a teddy bear was named Allah, and some believers did not take it well).

Whatever attraction the old Valyrians may have felt towards the god of fire, they simply did not care enough. They liked their gods multiple and toothless. To them religion was mostly a tool to control the masses.

Why do you believe that Daenerys is more susceptible? She seems as irreligious as the old Valyrians, if not more so. So far she has always adapted to the local faith without throwing away the old ones. She simply does not care much if there is the *right* or the *best* god. Why should any of that change with meeting Benerro or Moqorro? Is that because they tell her she's Azor Ahai? Well, then it comes down to the way we view her. I simply do not consider her as easily impressionable.

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There is a chance that these religions have different names for the same "deity", and they have been waiting for that "deity" to arrive, and that could be Dany. Dany will not be promoting any one named religion or another because she will be the "deity" herself. I am not saying she will go around in red robes and claiming to be a follower of R'hollor, and sorry if I was not clear about that earlier.

Well, who cares? They can claim what they want. If she plays by her own rules, there's not much they can do about it.

Also, I don't think that Azor Ahai or the Stallion that mounts the world are supposed to be deities. Azor Azai carries religious contations since he's "the Lord's chosen", but that makes him more of a Moses or Mohammed than a Jesus, IMO. The Stallion is pretty irreligious. He's a hero that is one day supposed to unite all the Dothraki, no moral or ideological virtues or ideals attached. He's not supposed to fight against the darkness or any such.

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Just as Mel says the red comet was the herald for Stannis (which we know she is wrong about), Dany thinks the red comet is for her.

So did almost anybody else.

Abegging brother in King's Landing claims it is a sign of the Seven's displeasure at the misbehaviour of the elites:

 “Corruption!” the man cried shrilly. “There is the warning! Behold the Father’s scourge!” He
pointed at the fuzzy red wound in the sky. From this vantage, the distant castle on Aegon’s High
Hill was directly behind him, with the comet hanging forebodingly over its towers. A clever choice of stage, Tyrion reflected. “We have become swollen, bloated, foul. Brother couples with
sister in the bed of kings, and the fruit of their incest capers in his palace to the piping of a
twisted little monkey demon. Highborn ladies fornicate with fools and give birth to monsters!
Even the High Septon has forgotten the gods! He bathes in scented waters and grows fat on lark
and lamprey while his people starve! Pride comes before prayer, maggots rule our castles, and
gold is all... but no more! The Rotten Summer is at an end, and the Whoremonger King is
brought low! When the boar did open him, a great stench rose to heaven and a thousand snakes
slid forth from his belly, hissing and biting!” He jabbed his bony finger back at comet and castle.
“There comes the Harbinger! Cleanse yourselves, the gods cry out, lest ye be cleansed! Bathe in the wine of righteousness, or you shall be bathed in fire! Fire!”

The Riverlanders and the Ironborn interpret it different ways as well, the ones that suit them:

“Robb has broken fealty with the Iron Throne and crowned himself King in the North. There’s
war.”
 “The maester’s ravens fly over salt as soon as rock. This news is old and cold.”
 “It means a new day, Uncle.”
 “Every morning brings a new day, much like the old.”
 “In Riverrun, they would tell you different. They say the red comet is a herald of a new age. A
messenger from the gods.”
 “A sign it is,” the priest agreed, “but from our god, not theirs. A burning brand it is, such as our people carried of old. It is the flame the Drowned God brought from the sea, and it proclaims a rising tide. It is time to hoist our sails and go forth into the world with fire and sword, as he did.”

Theon's own idea is specific to him:

Theon had never seen a more stirring sight. In the sky behind the castle, the fine red tail of the
comet was visible through thin, scuttling clouds. All the way from Riverrun to Seagard, the
Mallisters had argued about its meaning. It is my comet, Theon told himself, sliding a hand into his fur-lined cloak to touch the oilskin pouch snug in its pocket. Inside was the letter Robb Stark had given him, paper as good as a crown.

Maester Cressen:

I must rest, Maester Cressen told himself. I must have all my strength come dark. My hands
must not shake, nor my courage flag. It is a dreadful thing I do, yet it must be done. If there are
gods, surely they will forgive me. He had slept so poorly of late. A nap would refresh him for the
ordeal ahead. Wearily, he tottered off to his bed. Yet when he closed his eyes, he could still see
the light of the comet, red and flery and vividly alive amidst the darkness of his dreams. Perhaps it is my comet, he thought drowsily at the last, just before sleep took him. An omen of blood, foretelling murder... yes...

Joffrey's court vs. the common people:

The morning of King Joffrey’s name day dawned bright and windy, with the long tail of
the great comet visible through the high scuttling clouds. Sansa was watching it from her tower
window when Ser Arys Oakheart arrived to escort her down to the tourney grounds. “What do
you think it means?” she asked him.
 “Glory to your betrothed,” Ser Arys answered at once. “See how it flames across the sky today
on His Grace’s name day, as if the gods themselves had raised a banner in his honor. The
smallfolk have named it King Joffrey’s Comet.”
 Doubtless that was what they told Joffrey; Sansa was not so sure. “I’ve heard servants calling it
the Dragon’s Tail.”

Osha is of similar belief as the servants:

When Bran repeated that to Osha, she laughed aloud. “Your wolves have more wit than your
maester,” the wildling woman said. “They know truths the grey man has forgotten.” The way she
said it made him shiver, and when he asked what the comet meant, she answered, “Blood and fire, boy, and nothing sweet.” (Btw, here is a nice example of "sweet" being used in an unironic manner. For those who need it.)

(Personally I believe that Osha and the servants are closest to truth: IMHO the comet heralds that magic is getting stronger which enabled the return of the dragons... which in effect made the magic even stronger. A chicken and an egg situation.)

So, Dany believes it pertains to her quest somehow. Years ago Rhaegar believed that the first comet heralded Aegon's birth, but as far as we know he did not convert to Rh'llorism, although we can be reasonably sure that he was familiar with the religion as well as the legend of Azor Ahai. He was supposed to read plenty of old, dusty books and scrolls on this topic, after all. So, if Rhaegar was not into it, then why should Dany? As opposed to Rhaegar she has not made it her life's mission to become ot to sire the saviour of the world.

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I have not read Fevre Dream yet, but I am rather familiar with several of George's other stories, and a major theme in many of those stories is how extremism "consumes". Whether it be religion (it most often is), or the love of someone, it consumes... and sometimes quite literally and bodily.

And since you talked about slavery, that is often a slighter topic in these other books as well, and it is also in conjunction with religion such as in House of the Worm, Bitterblooms, Dying of the Light, etc.

We see Mel "enslaving" Mance when she has him wear the ruby cuff. And Mel was a slave at one point, and she also wears a ruby, so does she have a "master" who is controlling her?

And Dany and Mel both have a vision/dream where family member comes to them with some info, and both Mel and Dany wake with blood running down their thighs.

Dany also gives Drogo a 'kiss' before he is resurrected, just as she gives him a 'kiss' before she gives him final death.

And Dany being a bride of fire could honestly be a parallel to Bran being wed to the trees. I love Bloodraven to pieces, but I question his true motives (but I am still his fan), and at one point Bran sits at a fire and stares in to it while under BR training. Is this connected?

• She had sensed the truth of it long ago, Dany thought as she took a step closer to the conflagration, but the brazier had not been hot enough. The flames writhed before her like the women who had danced at her wedding, whirling and singing and spinning their yellow and orange and crimson veils, fearsome to behold, yet lovely, so lovely, alive with heat. Dany opened her arms to them, her skin flushed and glowing. This is a wedding, too, she thought. Mirri Maz Duur had fallen silent. The godswife thought her a child, but children grow, and children learn.

Melisandre has some other vision of her family than the Lot Seven memory? I honestly don't remember.

Daenerys is a daughter of House Targaryen, who consider themselves blood of the dragon and who share a magical connection to their dragons (as much as fandom likes to dispute that). Recently she broke the known record and instead of one dragon she hatched dragons three.

"… and folded. The dragon gave one last hiss and stretched out flat upon his belly. Black blood
was flowing from the wound where the spear had pierced him, smoking where it dripped onto the
scorched sands. He is fire made flesh, she thought, and so am I."

or

And there came a second crack, loud and sharp as thunder, and the smoke stirred and whirled
around her and the pyre shifted, the logs exploding as the fire touched their secret hearts. She
heard the screams of frightened horses, and the voices of the Dothraki raised in shouts of fear
and terror, and Ser Jorah calling her name and cursing. No, she wanted to shout to him, no, my
good knight, do not fear.for me. The fire is mine. I am Daenerys Stormborn, daughter of dragons, bride of dragons, mother of dragons, don’t you see? Don’t you SEE? With a belch of flame and smoke that reached thirty feet into the sky, the pyre collapsed and came down around her. Unafraid, Dany stepped forward into the firestorm, calling to her children.
 The third crack was as loud and sharp as the breaking of the world.

I don't think Dany needs some red priests to tell her what "bride of fire" means. She already is a bride of fire. I see no reason to add Rh'llor to the mix to make it fit. It already fits.

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We don't know that. Dany does think she is owed the throne and it is hers by right. This can drive a person mad, a la Viserys for one.

If Jon and Dany are parallels, and if Jon's "death" will make him more wild and wolf-like (winter is coming), we should expect a similar change in Dany to be more dragon-like after whatever is going to happen at the Dosh Khaleen that should be so huge that it will bind all of the different khalisars together, and get 100,000 Dothraki screamers to follow her across the dreaded ocean. Fire and blood.

ADDING: Plus, Dany as a girl was "killed" and then the woman was born during the dragon pyre. The prophecies that fit Dany the most were born in Essos, just as Dany was.

What does the word R'hollor mean? Do we have a name meaning? (serious question)

That's a misunderstanding of Dany's character. She's not powerhungry. Viserys told her that the Seven Kingdoms are their home, the home where they would be happy and safe. Dany's childhood sucked, she believed that assassins are out there to kill them, their hosts were throwing them into the street after each couple of months, her brother grew abusive. She's never found a home and Westeros is the thing in her imagination. It's not the crown and the power she's after, it's the sense of belonging.

Re-conquering Westeros is a less noble goal than seeting slaves free, no argument on that. But tell, me: why should that consume her and drive her insane? There have been multiple contenders for the throne: Joffrey, Robb, Balon, Stannis, Renly, Aegon, Euron,... Stannis even dreams of a crown of fire consuming him. Why is Daenerys Targaryen singled out as being so susceptible? Why is not Aegon also judged for setting to regain the crown of his ancestors? He could turn mad, no? He has a bad temper, much worse temper than Dany, he takes bad to the idea that someone may say "no" to him. Well, Dany gets this from readership because we have access to her mind, we can see her doubts, her warts and all.

The warts do not change that so far she has been one of the most selfless pretenders. The wars she waged have been on the account of others, not her own. That may change, but that hardly makes her worse than any of the fellow pretenders that either feel the crown is theirs by right or simply want more power. Let's not paint her as some impending nutcase for that. We don't even know what she will believe when she finally makes it Westeros. Perhaps she will want to strike a deal with Aegon against Euron or some such.

Rh'llor... I don't know if the word has any further significance in-world, but irl it's probably just a word GRRM made up:

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My heroes were the usual pair of mismatched adventurers, the melancholy exile prince R’hllor of Raugg and his boisterous, swaggering companion Argilac the Arrogant. […] Argilac got eaten by the titular dark gods. I had been reading Shakespeare at Marist and learning about tragedy, so I gave Argilac the tragic flaw of arrogance, which caused his downfall. R’hllor escaped to tell the tale … and to fight another day, I hoped. […]

(GRRM on his earlier writing, from Dreamsongs)

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Correct, Jon letting the free folk through was the straw that broke the mutineers back and Marsh acted hastily. In truth, we readers have been told since ASOS, and before Jon was voted LC, that there were three/four main Wall antagonists that were plotting to kill Jon all along. Sometimes we readers were literally told they wanted Jon dead. Whatever plan there was, Marsh sorta, probably ruined it and acted mostly on his own because he saw an opportunity. But yes, another thread

Not really, the straw that broke the camel's back was their Lord Commander reading to the entire Shieldhall outloud a letter in which the Lord of Winterfell and the son of the Warden of the North accuses him of kidnapping his wife and threatens with retaliation if his conditions are not met. Their LC - instead of denying it or making any peaceful attempt - tells the Watch he's going to take the wildlings and attack the said Lord of Winterfell. I must I can't blame March and co. for... overreacting.

Yeah, you can believe all you want that March is a baddie that was after Jon all along. His tears tell a different story. Whatever his faults may be, he did not want to kill this boy, but he felt his hand was forced. Much like Brutus with Caesar. The inspiration is apparent.

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Well, since Jon is a child of Rhaegar and a son of the north and a warg (this part is important), George foreshadowed his "death" using people that he is actually connected to. Rhaegar, Robb, and Bran. Past, present, future. Even down to the details of how their bodies fell and what their last words were.

If you are interested, and since I am short on time, I did lay out the past, present, future death here if you want to read it.

Jon is not connected to Jon? That vision and memory are about Jon.

I'll put the rest into spoilers, because I don't want to derail the thread

 

First of all.. yes, the Watch forgot its purpose... but what does it have to do with Jon's oathbreaking?

His act of oathreaking was sending Mance after Arya. As strange as it may sound, Jon was the agressor in this situation, not Ramsay. Ramsay reacted to what he saw as Jon's provocation.

How many other NW men are in a position similar to Jon, but don't act on their feelings? There's been a terrible civil war going on; many villages are ruins, their inhabitants slaughtered, raped, and left to starve. Many nobles have been also killed. Percentage of the NW brothers must come from these regions, and they must worry - or even even know with terrible certainty - what befell their families. But they don't break their vows either. They worry or mourn and live with it, very much like Maester Aemon.

They can't simply say: "Sorry, Lord Snow, but I feel this oath is not a good thing anymore. My duties here are trivial, and any other guy can do them. I'll be more useful at home." What do you think Jon would have told them if they came with this request? That the Watch can't spare any man, they swore a vow, and that their family will have to take care of themselves on their own. Certainly not: "Oh, go on, and return when you've made sure your family is OK."

Now, how is Jon's oathbreaking fair to these men - or any other men of the Watch? They put their trust in him, they chose him their commander, or at least accepted the result of the LC choice, and followed his commands. They have every right to expect that he will repay their trust and obedience by making the best possible decisions for the Watch. These are in the first place decisions that won't neccessarily endanger their lives and well-being. Life in the Watch is dangerous enough without Ramsay Bolton's threats.

Jon has not made his decision in vacuum. There are people that he is responsible for. And he put them needlessly in danger because he refused to give up his attachment to Arya.

He put his personal feelings before the mission of the Watch and the good of the Realm, leading him to do something what may easily compromise or even destroy the entire institution.

The innermost spirit of his vows is that he is supposed to leave his old loyalties, ambitions, and desires behind to serve a greater cause. His ADwD story is an epic fail on that count.

Don't get me wrong, I believe that Jon is a good man and usually tries his best, but he broke his NW oath, the punishment for which is death. Ned also was not considerate of Gared's feelings, although Gared went half-mad. In our court he could defend himself on the grounds of insanity. Ned cut his head of, although he recognizes that Gared is nuts.

I could go on about the rest, but I would there for the rest of the day. Let's just say that the Lannisters' scheme obviously has not worked out - you know, Janos was not chosen, and Bowen March and co. only acted when Jon openly broke the tradition of neutrality and didn't even bother to deny the accusation of oatbreaking. He has become a dangerous man to the Watch that day, for multiple reasons.

[ravenous reader]

2 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Daenerys, Dance 43

So, whose light will go out of the world before the night ends? 

I think Dany, Bran and Arya will all die -- all three fantasize about taking a flight into space, beyond the moon, to touch the stars and/or comet.  This is a euphemism for death.  All three fly too high.

[Lost Melnibonean]

2 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

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The candle was almost gone. Less than an inch remained, jutting from a pool of warm melted wax to cast its light over the queen’s bed.

The flame had begun to gutter. It will go out before much longer, Dany realized, and when it does another night will be at its end.

Dawn always came too soon.

Daenerys VI, Dance 43

So, whose light will go out of the world before the night ends? 

Oh, I left out this bit...

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The candle flickered one last time and died, drowned in its own wax. Darkness swallowed the feather bed and its two occupants, and filled every corner of the chamber.

Daenerys VI, Dance 43

[ravenous reader]

On 3/29/2017 at 2:58 AM, Free Northman Reborn said:

I don't see the basic interpretation of Daughter" vs "Bride" addressed adequately in the post above.

To rephrase my point, in the visions Martin refers to Daenerys as the Daughter of Death, and he refers to her as the Bride of Fire. And in each case he shows us three symbols to represent her connection to Death and Fire respectively.

My point was that you don't take the reference to "Daughter" as literal, but you do choose to take a literal interpretation of the word "Bride". That is inconsistent. My argument in response, is that the title "Daughter" is clearly used as a means to show that Daenerys's origin is symbolically linked to death, hence the depictions of Viserys, Rhaegar etc in the vision. Her destiny was born from the deaths of a number of people - possibly thousands, if you take Rhaegar's death to represent all the deaths in Robert's Rebellion for purposes of the vision.

Similarly, the use of the word "Bride" could equally be symbolic rather than literal, meaning that where the word "Daughter" talked about her past and origin, the word "Bride" talks about her future, and the effect she will have on various people, places and situations. And the three visions shown in the context of the word "Bride" then show three instances where she will bring "Fire" into a scenario. So it is not in fact referring to marriages in the literal sense at all, but to impacts Daenerys will have on the world.

Taking this even further, since we know that the potential "husbands" you propose for her in each of the three visions mostly aren't representations of Fire by any stretch of the imaginations (other than in the third vision, and then only partially), clearly the Fire is not referring to the "husbands" but rather to Daenerys herself, and some kind of Fire that will result from her interactions from these visions.

So to conclude, the "Bride" reference should not be read any more literally than the "Daughter" reference. Aerys wasn't in one of the "Daughter" visions, so clearly they aren't referring to her father, and in the same way none of the "Bride" visions need to be referring  to her husband.

 

I think this is well expressed and a correct reading.  The acute observation made by you and @Lord Varys that the triplet in question contains minimal fiery imagery -- in fact its opposite -- seems to indicate that Dany, the bride wedded to fire, contrary to expectations is a harbinger of the Long Night.  Her fire brings the Long Night with it as its shadow.  Although this doesn't rule out the possibility of her also at the same time liberating those she's afflicted from the night she has brought!  Supporting this ominous viewpoint (definitely less than flattering to Dany), notice that far from being hale and hearty, all three of the would-be husbands in the prophecy have been turned into corpses!  Let's parse that particular triplet in more depth, paying close attention to the word associations:

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A Clash of Kings - Daenerys IV

. . . help her . . . the whispers mocked. . . . show her . . .

 . . . Her silver was trotting through the grass, to a darkling stream beneath a sea of stars. A corpse stood at the prow of a ship, eyes bright in his dead face, grey lips smiling sadly. A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness. . . . mother of dragons, bride of fire . . .

'silver'...generally a wintery, lunar, night color (e.g. the bark of the weirwood turns silver at night), dualism -- both healing and harming aspects (e.g. Maester's link for medicine...the shady secret that the man with therapeutic knowledge also knows how to kill), associated with sorcery (e.g. 'weave gowns of silver seaweed')

'grass' is not necessarily salutary, considering we've been introduced to the concept of 'ghost grass' which will 'murder all the other grasses' in the Long Night

'darkling stream'...Rivers are frequently symbolic crossings between life and death (e.g. think of Robb and Catelyn's final crossing as it were at the aptly-named 'The Crossing').  So we can read this symbolically as Drogo going with Daenerys to the 'darkling stream' to his doom.  He dismounts (fatal for a Khal) and she removes all his silver bells from his hair (symbolically conquering him, castrating him and claiming his power as her own -- she is the usurper here; soon she will take his title and position at the head of the tribe); as the bells drop to the ground, they ring for the demise of a king instead of signalling his prowess, unleashing a dark black oily flood (like black blood, redolent of black magic).  The word 'darkling' is a rather archaic construction signifying dusk, nightfall, with a threatening connotation (e.g. dark and obscure motives).  For example, it's been used in famous poems such as Thomas Hardy's 'The Darkling Thrush' in which the melancholy poet broods on a dark future in the dead of winter; and John Keats's 'Ode to a Nightingale,' another morbid meditation in which the dying poet confronts his own mortality (Keats had tuberculosis which sucked the life out of him at a tragically early age) and the limits afforded by a measure of poetic immortality.  The titular bird-muse is addressed by the poet as 'darkling' in the line 'Darkling I listen; and, for many a time. I have been half in love with easeful Death...'  Anyway, you get the idea that 'darkling' is not a cheery concept and this marriage for Drogo will end badly.  'In-world' references to 'darkling' include the taint of treachery of House Darklyn of Duskendale who famously captured a king (just as Dany is doing with Drogo), as well as Dark Star with his silver hair like a wintery 'glacier', streaked with 'black midnight', his treacherous sword poised to make and unmake queens/kings, 'glimmering in the starlight, sharp as lies.'  That brings us to our next starry reference...

'beneath a sea of stars'...the 'nightlands', death, 'under the sea' has shades of the underworld, Patchface's ominous prophetic ditties

'corpse...dead face'...self-explanatory

'grey lips smiling sadly'...joy turning to ashes in ones mouth, Greyjoy, greyscale perhaps

'eyes bright'...bright blue eyes like those of the wights?

'blue flower'...could be poisonous

'sweet smell'...of death, like Jafer Flowers the wight with blue blue blue eyes eyes eyes 'no pansy flower,' and surprisingly sweet-smelling compared to normal corpses

@Lollygag has done a convincing examination of the nuanced underbelly of the smelly blue flowers here:

'wall of ice'...like a prison, coffin, somebody entombed and condemned, the Great Other

As I mentioned above, the tableau at the 'darkling stream' in which Drogo seals his fate joining himself to the bride of fire is fraught with the taint of treachery.  In fact, I believe Daenerys herself to be the one who commits the treachery, at least the 'treason for blood' (I'm not sure of the others, for gold and love yet).  The exact wording is 'three treasons will you know'.  Having knowledge -- perhaps a 'terrible knowledge' (similar to that possessed by the 'knowing' heart tree and the three-eyed crow as well as Bran having peeked behind the 'curtain of light') -- smacks of the taint of original sin.  Thus, it's quite possible that the one who is cognizant of or 'knows' a treachery is the selfsame person who commits the treachery in the first place; since those who fall victim to treachery -- precisely through ignorance of treachery, rather than knowledge -- often do not realize that they have been exploited (they remain in the dark without illumination) until it's too late (e.g. Ned vs. Littlefinger).  Therefore, I posit that the scenario of the so-called 'Blood Betrayal' is reprised with Dany however in the role of the Bloodstone Emperor (i.e. Azor Ahai) and Drogo playing the role of the usurped Amethyst Empress (i.e. Nissa Nissa).  Figuratively, the wound which kills him a la Nissa Nissa is a 'burning' breast/chest wound inflicted on him by his wife via the dagger-like instrument of Miri Maz Dur -- in other words a Lightbringer forging.  Dany is the blood traitor who in aid of her marriage to fire was willing in effect to commit a triple kinslaying (and indeed kingslaying) of her husband Drogo, her brother Viserys, and most heinous of all her unborn son Rhaego (he was kicking vigorously at the time Drogo fell from his horse, so unlikely to have been stillborn-bound until the murderous ritual had taken effect with her tacit approval), in order to birth her dragons and herself (all Lightbringers).  The precious blood of her kin was necessary for the dark blood magic ritual -- i.e. the treason for blood, their blood.  

Through his interaction with Dany, Drogo is reduced to a vegetative state, a burnt-out husk of his former self; the Greyjoy in the vision is a sad, grey corpse tied to the prow like a sacrificial figurehead; and Jon is encased in ice in his glass coffin.  Like Azor Ahai, her fire brings destruction on those she touches (even if well-meaning and inadvertent).  Azor Ahai and the Last Hero are different aspects of the same archetype though.  So in the final apotheosis of her power, I expect Dany to for once assume the restorative Last Hero-role instead of the destructive Azor Ahai one.  Accordingly, the last note in all the triplets is the word 'love', so I posit the final fire and dragon will be used to heal someone and/or something instead of to harm.  However, the cost of such a boon will come at the expense of Dany's life and that of her remaining dragon(s) -- I expect this to be Drogon.  Bran will die at the same time.  Healing requires the death of the Last Greenseer together with the Last Dragon who together will bring a new Dawn through their self-sacrifice -- the magic cancelling itself out with the restoration of the normal seasonal rhythms.

[Lord Varys]

4 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Well you are obviously using misdirection here to support your argument. No one is disputing that the stone beast, the cloth dragon, the blue-eyed king, the corpse on the ship or the blue flower should be identifiable as such when they show. After all, if you take the major point of disagreement here - the blue flower - then no one is disputing that it is Jon (or at least I am certainly not).

It is how they fit with the "Bride of Fire" vision which is eliciting all the disagreement. She clearly is not the Bride of literal Fire. Nor are all three visions obviously linked to Fire. So why should the "Bride" part refer to her literally marrying any of the three?

Because we got a key to interpret that set of visions. We have the first vision depicting Dany's first wedding night. We don't see Drogo, we see a scene associated with Drogo. Unless we assume without good evidence that the other visions don't point towards to other 'bridal context' if one of the visions clearly does we are using different criteria.

For the three fires and the three mounts we have a similar key. Dany lit one great fire in AGoT - Drogo's power - to get life. That makes it not unlikely that the other two fires will also be literal rather than weirdo metaphorical fires. The same goes for the mounts. There we seem to have gotten two already, the silver in AGoT (which Dany rode to bed) and Drogon in ADwD which she clearly can be seen riding to dread quite a few people in the future.

You can certainly suggest alternatives to the obvious implications but while they are possible they are not all that likely.

@ravenous reader

I really think you should tone down your associations what various words could mean and rather stick to what the the text actually says. Sometimes less is a lot more.

5 hours ago, Darkstream said:

Shame Lord Varys, you are not playing very nicely.

I thought stupid was kinder than 'willfully ignorant'. Just imagine we were reading a murder mystery. Would you think Dany was not the person who did the deed if you had gotten the same amount of clues that she is the one than we have gotten for the promised prince thing in ASoIaF? I don't think so.

@lojzelote & @The Fattest Leech

We know from TWoIaF that the red priests were already around during the Freehold but that they were not the predominant religion there, and some people even claim the red priests and R'hllor were responsible for the Doom. The dragonlords were apparently basically atheist, as most ruling classes in advanced societies usually are.

Dany isn't as smart and cynical as Tyrion but she is very unlikely to ever espouse a particular religion with all her heart. It is very striking that she doesn't even look to a divine intervention/miracle for the hatching of the dragons and the unburnt thing.

[Darkstream]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

I thought stupid was kinder than 'willfully ignorant'.

I'm not so sure I buy this. If I myself (who is admittedly less educated and knowledgable than many on these forums, you included) must explain the difference between calling someone willfully ignorant and stupid, then I believe it would be fair for me to label you as being willfully ignorant, or just stupid, if that's what you prefer.

Honestly, it's not really my place to say, but I feel that you owe some people here an apology. Just a suggestion.

Quote

 

Just imagine we were reading a murder mystery. Would you think Dany was not the person who did the deed if you had gotten the same amount of clues that she is the one than we have gotten for the promised prince thing in ASoIaF? I don't think so.

@lojzelote & @The Fattest Leech

 

Let's just stick to the actual text and novels that we are discussing, agreed?

[Lord Varys]

8 minutes ago, Darkstream said:

I'm not so sure I buy this. I hope I myself (who is admittedly less educated and knowledgable than many on these forums, you included) must explain the difference between calling someone willfully ignorant and stupid, then I believe it would be fair for me to label you as being willfully ignorant, or just stupid, if thats what you prefer.

Honestly, it's not really my place to say, but I feel that you owe some people here an apology. Just a suggestion.

Let's just stick to the actual text and novels that we are discussing, agreed?

I try to.

Pointing towards Daenerys are:

(1) Her birthplace, Dragonstone, is the place of smoke and salt (according to both Melisandre, Jon Snow - who points out that Stannis was not born there - and Yandel).

(2) Her birth was accompanied by signs and portents, resulting in her gaining the moniker 'Stormborn'.

(3) The bleeding star came, heralding her rebirth in the Drogo's pyre as well as the birth of the dragons.

(4) In said pyre she also hatched three dragon eggs, waking dragons from stone.

(5) In said pyre she was also reborn, in a sense, amidst smoke and salt (smoke from the fire and salt from the ashes).

(6) In a sense she also followed the mythological Azor Ahai's example: She tried to hatch her eggs three times just as Azor Ahai tried three times to make his sword. In the end both realized they had to kill their beloved spouse to get what they want.

(7) Dragons can also be seen as 'lightbringers'.

(8) In the House of the Undying Rhaegar actually looks at Dany during his conversation. That has some meaning, one obvious meaning is that she, and not Aegon, is the promised princess.

(9) The Undying prophesying that she is going to drink from the cup of ice and the cup of fire is a strong hint that hers might also be the Song of Ice and Fire (whatever any of that means).

(10) Maester Aemon - essentially a blind seer, the kind of guy you should trust in a fantasy series - identifies her as the promised princess using her hatching of the dragon eggs as the main criteria. The high priest Benerro is of the same opinion.

(11) She is of the line of Aerys II and Rhaella.

Against all that Jon Snow has precious little to offer:

(1) His Targaryen-Stark ancestry.

(2) Rhaegar's belief that he needed another child (although that could also mean another dragon head).

(3) Melisandre seeing Jon Snow in the flames while she is looking for Stannis. But that is actually not very conclusive because she is actually seeing a lot of other stuff, too, while searching without success for Stannis. It clearly ties Jon into the entire prophecy business, that much is clear.

Aside from that I see no good hint indicating that Jon Snow has fulfilled any of the prophecies or met any of the criteria describing the promised prince. Even the Ghost's prophecy fits Dany better than Jon considering that Daenerys is Aerys and Rhaella's daughter not their granddaughter. There is a lot of good irony hidden in the fact that she was both the youngest child and female, making it exceedingly unlikely that she would ever be properly identified as the promised prince before she began actually to fulfill her destiny.

I'm not making any of this up. I'm just seeing what's actually in the text.

[ravenous reader]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

I really think you should tone down your associations what various words could mean and rather stick to what the the text actually says. Sometimes less is a lot more.

Hearing less from you would be a start in the right direction.  LOL.  The prophecy is quite obtuse and equivocal and you claim to be the sole purveyor of a literal interpretation?!  

What the text says:  

The implication of the text is that she committed kin(g)slaying times three and that Azor Ahai is a villain.  Your Dany-cheerleading fantasies render you incompetent to appreciate this basic reality.  I'm sorry you're also incapable of reading the text in a poetic fashion -- in which believe me GRRM is quite proficient!

[Lord Varys]

@ravenous reader

Your interpretation as such aren't all that uninteresting. It is more the associations you have. Gish-galloping around that words have this or that meaning without ever establishing that the author also intended to use them in this way makes little sense, especially when you are try to speculate about future plot developments.

I mean, I know Keats, too, but I'm not dragging him into this unless there is really good reason to do so.

And passages like that

Quote

'silver'...generally a wintery, lunar, night color (e.g. the bark of the weirwood turns silver at night), dualism -- both healing and harming aspects (e.g. Maester's link for medicine...the shady secret that the man with therapeutic knowledge also knows how to kill), associated with sorcery (e.g. 'weave gowns of silver seaweed')

read pretty confusing to me. It is fine to know that you can connect a lot of stuff in your mind but I'm not sure why we should agree with that everything is connected to everything resulting in stuff being read in manner that is not exactly intuitive.

If I took some effort to it I could certainly write a post in similar manner proving that everything is about Tommen (which it actually is) but I'm not all that interested in doing that.

[The Fattest Leech]

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

 

I thought stupid was kinder than 'willfully ignorant'. Just imagine we were reading a murder mystery. Would you think Dany was not the person who did the deed if you had gotten the same amount of clues that she is the one than we have gotten for the promised prince thing in ASoIaF? I don't think so.

.

Clearly you are talking about me and you have dragged this insult of yours on from the two you made earlier in this thread. Wow, classy

Can you provide the quote... no matter who did it??? I mean, it's not like this isn't a public forum anyway.

This actually got me curious as to who would have called you such a term. I could not think of one in recent days, so I did a search, and I did not find anyone calling you "willfully ignorant". So, spill the tea, who was it???

Now, one thing that did happen was earlier in this thread I told you (back when we were still being playful) that, ignoring half of Jon and Dany's arc could mean you are "willfully closing your eyes to the other parts of the story. Both on Jon and Dany's side."

Hmmm, wonder where I could have learned that fromYou, dad! I learned it by watching you! So don't give anyone that patronizing, elitist schtick because it is phony, rude, and not necessary in this discussion. 

"you seem to be willfully ignoring ..."-- Lord Varys

And now I must rescind my popcorn invitation. No popcorn for you.