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shameeka

Did Tyrion have feelings for Sansa?

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"I want her, he realized. I want Winterfell, yes, but I want her as well, child or woman or whatever she is. I want to comfort her. I want to hear her laugh. I want her to come to me willingly, to bring me her joys and her sorrows and her lust." -From Chapter 32

This sounds like Tyrion loves - or at least has genuine affections for - Sansa. I know he loved Shae, but he never wanted Shae's joys or sorrows or something along those lines, I think he just wanted Shae to satisfy his lust.

Or maybe he's just obsessed with being loved and just wants someone to love him.

Edited by shameeka

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3 hours ago, shameeka said:

Or maybe he's just obsessed with being loved and just wants someone to love him.

I think so, but probably more complicated. Tyrion sympasized to Sansa, trapped in the KL and being abused and humilated, but still viewed her as a valuable asset in the War of 5 kings. When Sansa got lost during the bread riots, his first thought is about Jaime:

Quote

Tyrion glanced round the yard. "Where's the Stark girl?"
For a moment no one answered. Finally Joffrey said, "She was riding by me. I don't know where she went."
Tyrion pressed blunt fingers into his throbbing temples. If Sansa Stark had come to harm, Jaime was as good as dead.

Though Tyrion tried to be nice to sansa and cheer her up, she never trusted him and she had her reasons. Cersei was nice to her in the beginning and it ended up bad. And Sansa isn't aware of complicated relationships between the Lannisters. I think Tyrion wanted to be appreciated for his efforts and be accepted and loved.

Besides that Tyrion used to buy women's time and attention with his money and privilege like f.e. Shae. But he can't get Sansa neither with money, nor being a nice guy. I don't really think he cares about her joys and sorrows, it's a strive to possesion.

Edited by Ashes Of Westeros

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On August 25, 2016 at 4:50 AM, Ashes Of Westeros said:

Though Tyrion tried to be nice to sansa and cheer her up, she never trusted him and she had her reasons. Cersei was nice to her in the beginning and it ended up bad. And Sansa isn't aware of complicated relationships between the Lannisters. I think Tyrion wanted to be appreciated for his efforts and be accepted and loved.

Yes to it all, particularly the bolded. 

I think Tyrion and Sansa had a moment. They could have become something more. But I think his feelings for her were all tangled up with his need to be the kinder better Lannister. He didn't force her or anything, but that's because that wouldn't have gotten him what he wanted - her acceptance. 

He did love her, in his own way I think. 

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I think that Tyrion feels sorry for Sansa but Tysha is still the one great love of his life.  That's why the discovery of Jaime's betrayal of him is so hurtful, Tyrion thought that Tysha loved him for the same reason as all the other paid women did, because he paid them to pretend they loved him.  But Tysha actually did.  Tyrion can't relate to women in a normal way.  I think that he hoped that Sansa would love him but because Tyrion can't love himself he knows that is doomed to fail.  The only other person who has ever cared about Tyrion is Jaime.

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I think Tyrion simply wanted to be loved. Jaime was the only one who ever actually cared about Tyrion, and Tyrion is constantly trying to get that same love and affection from others.

Also have to add Tyrion not forcing himself on Sansa but "thinking about it" so that still makes him a terrible person is a ridiculous statement and terrible logic. If "thinking about" having sex with a women who doesn't want to have sex with you is a crime and automatically labels you a "rapist" anyways then every man in the known world is a terrible person. Tyrion entertained the thought (As all men do, sex is on a lot of our minds all the time) but knew it was not right so he still didn't do it, end of story.

A Line from Bronn in the TV Show actually sums up Tyrion's conflict in this situation perfectly."You wanna fuck the Stark girl, you just don't want to admit it" Tyrion is torn between trying to appeal to his father, (despite severally despising his father Tyrion still yearns for his approval and gratitude as he has never gotten it. Which is why Tywin and Kevan successfully persuade Tyrion to wed Sansa.) and doing what he thinks is right.

Edited by Adam_Up_Bxtch

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1 hour ago, Adam_Up_Bxtch said:

I think Tyrion simply wanted to be loved. Jaime was the only one who ever actually cared about Tyrion, and Tyrion is constantly trying to get that same love and affection from others.

 

A Line from Bronn in the TV Show actually sums up Tyrion's conflict in this situation perfectly."You wanna fuck the Stark girl, you just don't want to admit it" Tyrion is torn between trying to appeal to his father, (despite severally despising his father Tyrion still yearns for his approval and gratitude as he has never gotten it. Which is why Tywin and Kevan successfully persuade Tyrion to wed Sansa.) and doing what he thinks is right.

And if you think about it even Bronn only cares about Tyrion because Tyrion is paying him.

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The answer is in their interaction during the wedding night - he wants her, but for reasons of self-validation and self-assurance. Initially he says something about having been married before, and Sansa is genuinely curious, but he rebuffs that. Then he does some self-deprecation... you know "fishing for compliments" routine and she feels just pity instead. And later on Sansa wonders to herself what he wants from her. He's needy. And he confuses that need with love. She was absolutely correct to mistrust him from the get go. He is kind to her, but not for genuine reasons. Otherwise he wouldn't have pulled that stunt with the escort of Cleos Frey to try and rescue Jaime. 

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Always be curious when the presence of Arbor Gold comes up in a scene as it does in the wedding night scene.  Basically when you see Arbor Gold, think lies and illusions that are so attractive the person prefers it to reality and easily drinks it down.  Tyrion prefers a pretty illusion to a honest relationship.  He's in love with the idea of being loved and thinks he just needs to be kind and gentle to Sansa.  Be he doesn't really emotionally connect with her.  At worst, he kinda wanted her to be okay with her own exploitation in a forced marriage, so as long as he got to look like her hero.  She totally does acknowledge Tyrion's good points, but she does not love or desire him, which is why he's so wounded when she says she probably would never consent to consummate it -- he never really considered she would never want him.  In a sense, even though he's older, she's emotionally more mature here.  I can completely understand why Tyrion is so needy.  He's a product of a horrific father who denied him love and acceptance at every turn, but Sansa is in the right by refusing to submit to this farce of a marriage and rejecting sex with someone she doesn't love or desire.   

Edited by Blue-Eyed Wolf

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9 hours ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

Always be curious when the presence of Arbor Gold comes up in a scene as it does in the wedding night scene.  Basically when you see Arbor Gold, think lies and illusions that are so attractive the person prefers it to reality and easily drinks it down.  Tyrion prefers a pretty illusion to a honest relationship.  He's in love with the idea of being loved and thinks he just needs to be kind and gentle to Sansa.  Be he doesn't really emotionally connect with her.  At worst, he kinda wanted her to be okay with her own exploitation in a forced marriage, so as long as he got to look like her hero.  She totally does acknowledge Tyrion's good points, but she does not love or desire him, which is why he's so wounded when she says she probably would never consent to consummate it -- he never really considered she would never want him.  In a sense, even though he's older, she's emotionally more mature here.  I can completely understand why Tyrion is so needy.  He's a product of a horrific father who denied him love and acceptance at every turn, but Sansa is in the right by refusing to submit to this farce of a marriage and rejecting sex with someone she doesn't love or desire.   

I completely agree with that. I think we can all understand why he's needy, but it's not 'love'. She can't fully express it, but her responses are completely normal. Tyrion himself does not truly allow for emotional nor intellectual intimacy in that scene, even before the ultimate rejection. Tyrion is indeed gulping down the lies he tells himself about it with Arbor Gold..

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Just finished (re)reading this chapter.

I think he just wants to save her. Kind of like the Hound, but I don't think he actually loves/loved her. In comparison to him, she's weak. She doesn't have any family, money, or intellectual skill to survive and I think he feels like he's capable of taking care of her.

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Posted (edited)

Oh, I think there are many, many layers regarding his feelings for her and their relationship.  I will try to break it down best I can and I totally understand that both Tyrion and Sansa are characters who appear to polarise people a lot in that they both have great supporters and detractors among the readership, although of course they are not alone in that Dany comes to mind to when it comes to supporters/detractors.

I will try to go more or less chronologically.  When we first have a scene with them (the Throne Room) they hardly know each other and the belong to enemy families.  He did not need to antagonise Joffrey and possibly risk consequences for himself given what Joff and Cersei are like.  There he was brave. 

Various things could be argued though;  that he did it simply because he seems to have a tendency to help the underdog (which I think he truly does).  However, yes it could be twisted to say that he just wants to be the hero for his own image.   The trouble with this is that, arguably, anyone who say gives to charity or does voluntary work could be accused of the same.  In reality I think often these two concepts get a bit blurred and I personally think that most people who, say, give to charity do it out of a mixture of compassion, pity, sometimes even guilt but a little bit to make themselves feel that they are "good people" or even for their own image.  Still, before he lost the plot in ADWD there are various instances where Tyrion came out on the side of the defenceless like when he sent Slynt to the Wall.  We could argue forever about his "true" motivation but that takes me back to the charity example I just gave.A better argument against his "true altruism" is that yes she is a valuable hostage and the Starks have Jaime.  It is hard to argue against it but I don't think this was the sole motivation because Joff had said that Cersei have forgiven him to kill her so it was a beating and humiliation that she was in for and that was very unlikely to affect Jaime since the Starks would probably not hear of it ,if at all, in a long, long time.  He could have ignored the situation and not gotten himself involved.  At that stage he doesn't have any connection with the girl, he simply dislikes seeing innocents treated so unjustly but that doesn't mean he has feelings for her in sexual terms (at that point) or in a  family or friendship way either.  Still he was also happy to comfort her as a sort of friend had she been more receptive (although I understand her mistrust totally too). Basically my point up to here is that it is entirely possible, even if he had the ulterior motive of keeping the hostage safe that he also has compassion.

He didn't actively figured out that scheme, say in  the way LF does.  He hasn't gone all out to try to seduce her in the hopes of getting his claim.  It wasn't his idea.  Accepted that he could have opposed it more strongly.  He could also have left his family and live on what? and he didn't.  He is attached to his material comforts, of course he is but he did not schemed that himself.  All the characters (or most) in this series are very complex but he more than most and he is so "fleshed out" that we see all the good and bad in him and in-between.  In that it is obvious that he is very dear to the author because a lot of thought has gone into Tyrion; probably the reason he is my favourite lol.  He feels like a real person full of contradictions and grey areas.

At that point though his feelings are fears are all for Shae.  He intends to treat Sansa as best he can but he doesn't just want Shae for sex.  He could have anyone for that, which he did not.  He ordered someone to be killed to protect Shae's life (the singer).  Objectionable thing to do but he was being blackmailed and he gave the singer options... Not that I condom it though.  Now that is either true love or true stupidity!  He kept thinking Shae was playing him, he knew it but was in denial.  In the show she is a different character really but in the books she really does not love him back at all, or even care (hence she was more worried about her silks and jewels than his survival).  Okay she is a whore.  Still I am sure some whores can develop feelings for regular clients.  I don't think Shae should have let him go that far down in his infatuation or love or whatever.  Sure, she wanted his gold and he knew it and she could have been a super friend or something but she encouraged him to fall deeper and deeper for her in that sort of forbidden love and mad obsession that has been described in psychology as akin to a mental illness lol  Okay, I think we all have experienced it in some measure, especially in the beginning stages of a relationship that is sudden and very fueled with lust, hope and expectation lol.  The thing is Tyrion is vulnerable and cannot help himself from putting a target on his back when it comes to this.  Had Sansa been more mature and astute she could have played him like a fiddle too, I bet but I glad she didn't.  Yes, Tyrion fancies her once the notion has been put in front of him but I agree with @Adam_Up_Bxtch that feeling attracted to someone is not a crime lol and this goes for both men and women.  

Okay, in their wedding banquet he pretended to be a lot drunker than he was and very seriously antagonised the King to avoid the bedding ceremony.  Again, I think there are two things here that are not mutually-exclusive.  He wanted to spare his very young and innocent bride but he also wanted to spare himself from it and the humiliation that he was about to suffer yet again.  To me the fact that surely he also wanted to spare himself the show doesn't make him selfish per se.  He wanted to spare them both.  What feelings did he have for her at that stage?  Well, they are virtually strangers, he certainly cared for her wellbeing in some way but not in the way one would care, I don't think, for someone you have grown very attached to.

He also had misgivings about her age, hence banter with Bronn.  I think this is just morality standards kicking in, more of a "learned behaviour," such as "you musn't steal" even if you really would like that million dollars lol  However, given the social context that in itself, to me, indicates that he has some moral fibre.  Then we get two more things, his father's demands re consummation, his sense of duty to his House and his ingrained need to gain his father's acceptance and the fact that he considers it morally wrong.  So this character does debate moral issues internally he doesn't just do what is convenient for him. There was temptation of course, strong temptation but without it the honorable deed would have no value from a literary point of view.

Now, yes he is hoping she may grow to like him at least.  Is that wrong???  Is it so very horrible for someone to hope that his good qualities (he has many bad ones too) could make someone fall for him one day???  In a society where strength is more valued than wits and given how he has been treated all his life, not just by his father but by society in general, should someone with a physical condition just curl up in a corner and die without ever hoping for more???  He certainly has attributes that appeal to me and hence I may be partial, and he is aware of them (he is witty, he is funny and yes he rewards those loyal to him) so basically, in his mind and I grant you guys he is "touchy" when she said "what if I never..." that invalidated any good qualities he may possess.  She didn't know him any more than he knew her but she is rejecting him on his looks without knowing the person (good or bad or medium).  I am not sure I could take that in his place either!  In fact, I fear I may have reacted worse than he did lol.  Yes, she is young and he is older but she comes from a loving family and he does not.  Although he may be much more astute in matters of state, say, and she is a hostage, emotionally he is as vulnerable, if not more.  However, I think that she did the right thing by expressing her mind on that point.  Makes a refreshing change for what Shae had been doing to him.  I don't object to Shae being phenomenal in bed and laughing and drinking with him and being his friend but she displayed signs of being in love with him and that was cruel I think.

As for Tysha, it is hard to say without knowing more.  It is very possible that she was taken by his kindness and chivalry but she did know who he was and she was destitute so hard to say whether she really felt for him or took the opportunity...  Open minded to either possibility.

Yes, Tyrion is in love with the idea of being in love, but isnt'e everyone until the find love???

I believe a lot of this emphasis on this thread  has been on how  he is selfish and insincere... if he is guilty of that I am too.  About the "needeniness" yes it it unattractive only because we are all hedonists at heart and prefer not to have to deal with "damaged goods."  To me the average "needy" person is not just an attention seeker designed to annoy you but someone who has usually suffered what you may be unable to understand.  Funnily enough attention seeking is common among the people who had been put down...

OK answering OP, does he have feelings for her, as a protector and friend yes, is he in love? no, in my humble opinion.  Could things grow?  I hope so but they both need their own experiences ... if not good allies and friends, can't see why not!

Okay, in real life, do I ever believe in love at first sight???  No, of course, now lust at first sight or even a deep friendship-like connection that can develop into more, for sure!  Now Ned and Cat appeared to have a great marriage and I can imagine she gave herself in her wedding night to Ned for duty, yet, something blossomed over time... I am not advocating for arranged marriages but in a way I think, in context, George does.  So ultimately, I think at the end of their interaction they both have some feelings for each other (protection, mild friendship) and I think there is something to be built on it. Sexually, he fancies her, she  doesn't. As for love (friend) as opposed to something like family, she would even be further away, quite understandably.

Edited by Morgana Lannister

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Posted (edited)
On 8/25/2016 at 11:56 AM, hitman47 said:

He wanted to fuck her that's all

Sure, he was attracted to her but hey if that is his only possible motivation, why is it that he has at his disposal the most expensive sex workers in Kings Landing and stays with Shae instead?  Yes, the man likes sex, like many of us, but he is certainly not a non discerning customer lol

Edited by Morgana Lannister

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I think he respects her and cares for her well-being. He is also physically attracted to her but is a good enough person to respect her boundaries and remember that she is only a little girl and that just because she's flowered doesn't give him the clear to fuck her as he pleases, that she is still very much a little girl emotionally even if she is a woman physically. He spares her the pain of the details about her brother and mother's death, defends her against Joffrey(the line where he is all "you can't hurt her anymore, she isn't yours to hurt anymore" thing really cemented it), is always trying to talk to her and cheer her up. 

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8 hours ago, JaneSnow said:

I think he respects her and cares for her well-being. He is also physically attracted to her but is a good enough person to respect her boundaries and remember that she is only a little girl and that just because she's flowered doesn't give him the clear to fuck her as he pleases, that she is still very much a little girl emotionally even if she is a woman physically. He spares her the pain of the details about her brother and mother's death, defends her against Joffrey(the line where he is all "you can't hurt her anymore, she isn't yours to hurt anymore" thing really cemented it), is always trying to talk to her and cheer her up. 

Yes, there is all that valuable hostage or not.  If his own concern was the "valuable hostage" as long as she was in one piece, and far more chance with him than others since he is a member of the royal family who often shows Joff up.  I think he does care for her in an initial sort of level which is not the same as caring for a dear family member or whatever.  Furthermore, I think, once she is out of KL she cares for him too, at least at that "initial" level.  Not necessarily saying this will end in romance (doubted with this series) but it will be a friendship overall at the very least...

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13 hours ago, JaneSnow said:

I think he respects her and cares for her well-being. He is also physically attracted to her but is a good enough person to respect her boundaries and remember that she is only a little girl and that just because she's flowered doesn't give him the clear to fuck her as he pleases, that she is still very much a little girl emotionally even if she is a woman physically. He spares her the pain of the details about her brother and mother's death, defends her against Joffrey(the line where he is all "you can't hurt her anymore, she isn't yours to hurt anymore" thing really cemented it), is always trying to talk to her and cheer her up. 

Actually, in story, he does have the right to f her as he pleases. He is her husband and lord and has the right to basically do whatever he wants to do with her, again, in story.

I think a lot of what has been said is pretty accurate as to what he thinks he feels toward her. Remember, he has a soft spot for cripples, bastards, and broken things. I think he sees her as a broken thing, treated as a toy by the more powerful Joffery. He also has lust and genuine feelings for her. Would it last, no, because his true love is currently wherever whores go and any relationship of theirs would likely turn out similar to King Bob and Cersei. 

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11 hours ago, dbunting said:

Actually, in story, he does have the right to f her as he pleases. He is her husband and lord and has the right to basically do whatever he wants to do with her, again, in story.

I think a lot of what has been said is pretty accurate as to what he thinks he feels toward her. Remember, he has a soft spot for cripples, bastards, and broken things. I think he sees her as a broken thing, treated as a toy by the more powerful Joffery. He also has lust and genuine feelings for her. Would it last, no, because his true love is currently wherever whores go and any relationship of theirs would likely turn out similar to King Bob and Cersei. 

What I meant was, yes, I guess he does technically have the right under law but he realizes that just because the law says that she's a woman and beddable because she's bled doesn't make it right. I think he says something to her like "You're a child" at one point during their wedding night

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Posted (edited)
On 5/13/2018 at 6:03 AM, dbunting said:

Actually, in story, he does have the right to f her as he pleases. He is her husband and lord and has the right to basically do whatever he wants to do with her, again, in story.

I think a lot of what has been said is pretty accurate as to what he thinks he feels toward her. Remember, he has a soft spot for cripples, bastards, and broken things. I think he sees her as a broken thing, treated as a toy by the more powerful Joffery. He also has lust and genuine feelings for her. Would it last, no, because his true love is currently wherever whores go and any relationship of theirs would likely turn out similar to King Bob and Cersei. 

I'm with you and well it is understandable that after learning that Tysha may have loved him, and the guilt re what his father did to them both (but much worse for her) he wants to find her!!!  In ADOS he is clearly having a nervous break down, but Tysha won't be his final destination.  Either she is dead, or won't forgive it, or even if she does, they will be mentally leagues apart...  Tysha has now become a concept not a person for him IMHO.  Tyrion cannot not move on to be some sort of hero in the later part of the story until he gets functional, which involves ditching the Tysha obsession.

Sansa, after training with LF, and especially if they both team up to bring LF down (my prediction).  Both have enough reasons lol could bond.  I can see two ambitious but overall okay people discussing matters of state ove some Arbor gold.  Both Ty and Sansa are refined people.  Once she opens up to him, even as a friend, and conversation can flow.  Now, she fancied Loras who is very refined, too much perhaps, and Sandor who is not and him well he drinks with sellswords and he is not as snob about it but I think, long term, they need something past heirs and sex and duty and he keeps dronning on about conversation.  I think they would be great.  She may even surprising him as the better plotter.

Now, an afterthought but very small in comparisson to what I have said above.  I have has re-read ASOS and before Tywin summons him he sees he is likely to rain and he thinks about fetching her in the godswood before she gets soak.  Tiny detail but no need for him to do that or he could have asked one of her maids...  He did care at some level and hell, he does go to hell and back to try to make her feel better (but she has understandibly very strong barriers) which he respects...  I do wonder though, feel free to comment guys.  Had it not been for Dontos's promise to take her home, would she had been more ameniable to making the most of what her husband was giving her in terms of friendship?  She "knew/hope" she did not have to be with Tyrion long.  Had she thought otherwise, would she have chosen, after a while, what comfort he could provide?  Maybe something for a new topic lol

Edited by Morgana Lannister

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Posted (edited)
On 5/13/2018 at 5:06 PM, JaneSnow said:

What I meant was, yes, I guess he does technically have the right under law but he realizes that just because the law says that she's a woman and beddable because she's bled doesn't make it right. I think he says something to her like "You're a child" at one point during their wedding night

If we transport ourselves to their world it would not be average for people to think like Tyrion did, in fact.  We tend to accept what is legal and acceptable in our societies and I grant is hard to transport ourselves to the very harsh world of ASOIAF but we would have been brought up to believe those things normal and not an aberration.   I could probably go as far as saying 90% of their society or more, both males and females, would have considered their bedding normal.

Now, love marriages amongst the nobility, now frown upon, to them I guess it would have been the opposite with probably more than 90% of the population, noble or peasant, rather scandalised...

Edited by Morgana Lannister

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