Why the hell doesn't House Baratheon have a Valyrian Steel Sword?

[Jaak]

38 minutes ago, theblackdragonI said:

Taking treasured blades from one house to give to another would lead to ever lasting feuds and strife, which isn't beneficial to anyone. Besides, many houses might refuse to take the blade of another house out of pride. The Baratheons are notoriously proud and might take offence at being offered another house's sword?

They took House Durrandon´s words - though they dumped the name. Would they have kept the sword? Would Aegon have insisted on Orys giving away the Valyrian sword he personally won from a foe he killed in battle, in order to melt it into Iron Throne?

[theblackdragonI]

3 minutes ago, Jaak said:

They took House Durrandon´s words - though they dumped the name. Would they have kept the sword? Would Aegon have insisted on Orys giving away the Valyrian sword he personally won from a foe he killed in battle, in order to melt it into Iron Throne?

No record of House Durrandon having a Valyrian sword, so they probably didn't. If they did though, its unlikely Aegon would melt it. Valyrian steel was just as rare back then as it is in the current setting of the series.

[YOVMO]

On August 26, 2016 at 3:20 AM, JWittoBeast said:

 

okay that was MY bad. I was under the impression that Aegon came to Westeros with a shitload of Valyrian steel swords because his family knew that Valyria might be destroyed soon so they took out a bunch to make it worthwhile and they handed them out to the bannerman of Westeros.

 

But yes, House Lannister did have Brightroar but they lost it, look it up.

My point still remains, if House Lannister and other Westerosi houses get VS swords, how come House Baratheon which literally CAME from Valyria not get a single one????

Lannisters and Stark's and many other family's were very old family's which were established and kings in their own right before the doom and bought these swords directly from Valyrians. However, the Baratheon's were made the lords of storms end by Aegon I which was after the doom. 3 or 4 generations before Aegon there is no way the Baratheons had the kind of money that these 5-10k year old houses of kings hadKings had

[YOVMO]

On August 28, 2016 at 11:51 PM, GallowsKnight said:

I believe there's meant to be around 200 swords in Westeros. So there's probably a lot of swords we haven't been introduced to with minor houses. The Mormonts are poorer than other houses, but I don't think they'd consider themselves impoverished.

The other question is how much did Tywin offer for the swords? What is the real price on the swords? 

A few numbers for relevance. A gold dragon buys a set of armor in the Hedge Knight. I believe Selwyn of Tarth ransomed 300 dragons for Brienne from the Bloody Mummers. The prize for the Hand's Tournament was 40,000 dragons. Robert's debts to the Lannister were 3,000,000 dragons. Like where does it fit on that spectrum?

There was said to be like 200 "blades" not swords. It is my understanding that Valyrian Steel daggers like the one the cat's paw tried to kill bran with are far more abundant than swords. My guess is that in Westeros there is, maybe, 25 VS swords and maybe less. The other blades were smaller daggers and the like of significantly less importance 

[GallowsKnight]

1 hour ago, YOVMO said:

There was said to be like 200 "blades" not swords. It is my understanding that Valyrian Steel daggers like the one the cat's paw tried to kill bran with are far more abundant than swords. My guess is that in Westeros there is, maybe, 25 VS swords and maybe less. The other blades were smaller daggers and the like of significantly less importance 

I believe the exact quote is "weapons", which is pretty vague. I don't know if there is any evidence for daggers being more common. It's a good theory that makes sense. But there's not enough text evidence.

We see all of one valyrian steel dagger in the series. You'd think we'd hear descriptions of powerful people wearing on on their hip or something.

Now that I think about valyrian steel daggers would be heaps useful. Possibly more than swords. There's all the mundane stuff where having a sharp knife that never dulls would be great (eating, whittling etc). And in combat you could slam it into an armpit or groin or any other gap between plate and mail. While using a mace, hammer or poleaxe as a primary weapon.

[Nyrhex]

The quote is "blades", and still it is far more likely that they are mostly swords.

Who gets a VS weapon, spends a fortune, only to end up with a fancy letter opener? You want a sword. An axe is also good, but the emphasis, the prestige, was always about swords. You are not going to pay those sums and get a spear head. We have in our own history countless treasured heirloom swords, but daggers? Not really the same class.

The Arakh we see is an outlier, and was most likely from some powerfull Khal. How it ended up by a common sellsword? Like most of the stuff of the Dothraki - the strong take from the weak. There is also no reason to think that the Arakh was purchased from the Freehold, as the Dothraki only came after the Doom. Likely it is a re-worked sword from Qohor, a gift to make the Dothraki go away, and VS swords are far more common and affordable in Essos. We also know Tywin tried to buy a sword from at least three improvished houses, and none of the known swords are from an improvished house. 

When you get a VS weapon you want a sword to pass on, so wording aside, it is safe to assume that the bulk of the "blades" in Westeros are swords, and most would be one handed swords because the fighting style is for one handed swords. I don't find the theory that we don't hear about more swords, becasue most of the weapons are smaller, to be realistic. Swords should be the majority of those 200 blades.

[YOVMO]

25 minutes ago, GallowsKnight said:

I believe the exact quote is "weapons", which is pretty vague. I don't know if there is any evidence for daggers being more common. It's a good theory that makes sense. But there's not enough text evidence.

We see all of one valyrian steel dagger in the series. You'd think we'd hear descriptions of powerful people wearing on on their hip or something.

Now that I think about valyrian steel daggers would be heaps useful. Possibly more than swords. There's all the mundane stuff where having a sharp knife that never dulls would be great (eating, whittling etc). And in combat you could slam it into an armpit or groin or any other gap between plate and mail. While using a mace, hammer or poleaxe as a primary weapon.

You are right. Weapons. We know there is an ararkh I just feel we hear a lot about swords and they are named so if there were more we would know. While we only see one dagger there is mention of a cache of VS daggers somewhere I would need to search concordance and with the price of Vs I would assume smaller weapons of less prestige would be more popular.

 

Not sure about a hammer. The lightness that is the hallmark of a VS sword would really be a default in a warhammer where the amount of damage it could do should be directly related to its heft

[GallowsKnight]

1 hour ago, YOVMO said:

You are right. Weapons. We know there is an ararkh I just feel we hear a lot about swords and they are named so if there were more we would know. While we only see one dagger there is mention of a cache of VS daggers somewhere I would need to search concordance and with the price of Vs I would assume smaller weapons of less prestige would be more popular

Not sure about a hammer. The lightness that is the hallmark of a VS sword would really be a default in a warhammer where the amount of damage it could do should be directly related to its heft

Sorry about the confusion. I don't mean a VS hammer. I mean a simply iron/steel hammer is probably superior for killing other Knights to a VS sword. As you cause blunt trauma or piece the armour.

 

1 hour ago, Nyrhex said:

The quote is "blades", and still it is far more likely that they are mostly swords.

Who gets a VS weapon, spends a fortune, only to end up with a fancy letter opener? You want a sword. An axe is also good, but the emphasis, the prestige, was always about swords. You are not going to pay those sums and get a spear head. We have in our own history countless treasured heirloom swords, but daggers? Not really the same class.

The Arakh we see is an outlier, and was most likely from some powerfull Khal. How it ended up by a common sellsword? Like most of the stuff of the Dothraki - the strong take from the weak. There is also no reason to think that the Arakh was purchased from the Freehold, as the Dothraki only came after the Doom. Likely it is a re-worked sword from Qohor, a gift to make the Dothraki go away, and VS swords are far more common and affordable in Essos. We also know Tywin tried to buy a sword from at least three improvished houses, and none of the known swords are from an improvished house. 

When you get a VS weapon you want a sword to pass on, so wording aside, it is safe to assume that the bulk of the "blades" in Westeros are swords, and most would be one handed swords because the fighting style is for one handed swords. I don't find the theory that we don't hear about more swords, becasue most of the weapons are smaller, to be realistic. Swords should be the majority of those 200 blades.

I really want a good source for the quote "blades" or "weapons" because I seem to see both on the internet attributed to WOIAF and my copy is at home. Though ultimately the term is redundant to my original point was that the 226 didn't include random items like the masks or links.

I agree swords are more likely and more prestigious. Though why not have both if you can? I think it comes down to how prevalent VS steel was in Valyria. Was it a luxury item even then? Or was everything made out of it. Then you might find belt knives and spearheads of it. Though in less quantity because common spearmen wouldn't likely survive the Doom.

I think it was probably less common even then. Otherwise places like Volantis would have piles of weapons.

[Darkstream]

28 minutes ago, GallowsKnight said:

I really want a good source for the quote "blades" or "weapons"

The World of Ice and Fire - Ancient History: Valyria’s Children

The properties of Valyrian steel are well-known, and are the result of both folding iron many times to balance and remove impurities, and the use of spells—or at least arts we do not know—to give unnatural strength to the resulting steel. Those arts are now lost, though the smiths of Qohor claim to still know magics for reworking Valyrian steel without losing its strength or unsurpassed ability to hold an edge. The Valyrian steel blades that remain in the world might number in the thousands, but in the Seven Kingdoms there are only 227 such weapons according to Archmaester Thurgood's Inventories, some of which have since been lost or have disappeared from the annals of history.

 

[GallowsKnight]

23 minutes ago, Darkstream said:

The World of Ice and Fire - Ancient History: Valyria’s Children

The properties of Valyrian steel are well-known, and are the result of both folding iron many times to balance and remove impurities, and the use of spells—or at least arts we do not know—to give unnatural strength to the resulting steel. Those arts are now lost, though the smiths of Qohor claim to still know magics for reworking Valyrian steel without losing its strength or unsurpassed ability to hold an edge. The Valyrian steel blades that remain in the world might number in the thousands, but in the Seven Kingdoms there are only 227 such weapons according to Archmaester Thurgood's Inventories, some of which have since been lost or have disappeared from the annals of history.

 

Thank you Darkstream. Huh. So both are used. In this case I guess one can assume most weapons are blades by the context of that sentence.

[YOVMO]

7 hours ago, GallowsKnight said:

Thank you Darkstream. Huh. So both are used. In this case I guess one can assume most weapons are blades by the context of that sentence.

Both are used. What is not used is "swords" I stand by my original assertation that full sized primary weapons probably are very few, def under 50 and prob under 30 within a lot of smaller daggers and other types of knives.

 

as to the comment above where it was suggested it would be swords because lords would want swords so why buy expensive letter openers: that would be fine for the Kings of Winter or Kings of the Rock etc but a lot of not poor but not super wealthy lordly families might buy a dagger as well as some very wealthy merchants. It is still a huge status symbol even if it was a VS tooth pick

[devilish]

On 26/08/2016 at 7:21 AM, JWittoBeast said:

They are LITERALLY FROM Valyria and they were Aegon's main supporters, yet they don't even have a Valyrian steel sword?

"House Lannister, you get Brightroar, House Stark you get Ice, House Tarly you get Heartsbane....House Baratheon? Nope you get nothing sorry, but House Targaryen gets to keep 2 Valyrian steel swords for ourselves."

 

On a side note, what would  be a cool name for it? I think "Stormbringer" would be a good name, some people say "Fury" and that would be good at the time of 1 AC but in modern day it wouldn't be too good since there is already a ship named "Fury", so "Fury the Sword" and "Fury the Ship".

Erm actually no. They descend from someone whose rumoured to be Aegon's bastard brother. Considering that Valyrian swords are rare, would you give such sword to some bastard of yours or would you give it to a true born?

[Nyrhex]

9 hours ago, GallowsKnight said:

I really want a good source for the quote "blades" or "weapons" because I seem to see both on the internet attributed to WOIAF and my copy is at home. Though ultimately the term is redundant to my original point was that the 226 didn't include random items like the masks or links.

I agree swords are more likely and more prestigious. Though why not have both if you can? I think it comes down to how prevalent VS steel was in Valyria. Was it a luxury item even then? Or was everything made out of it. Then you might find belt knives and spearheads of it. Though in less quantity because common spearmen wouldn't likely survive the Doom.

I think it was probably less common even then. Otherwise places like Volantis would have piles of weapons.

 

The original source:

A Storm of Swords - Tyrion IV

At long last, Father? Valyrian steel blades were scarce and costly, yet thousands remained in the world, perhaps two hundred in the Seven Kingdoms alone. It had always irked his father that none belonged to House Lannister. The old Kings of the Rock had owned such a weapon, but the greatsword Brightroar had been lost when the second King Tommen carried it back to Valyria on his fool's quest. He had never returned; nor had Uncle Gery, the youngest and most reckless of his father's brothers, who had gone seeking after the lost sword some eight years past.

 

And VS was a luxury item back then. Brightroar for example from right before the end of the Freehold:

The World of Ice and Fire - The Westerlands

The sword Brightroar came into the possession of the Lannister kings in the century before the Doom, and it is said that the weight of gold they paid for it would have been enough to raise an army. But it was lost little more than a century later, when Tommen II carried it with him when he sailed with his great fleet to ruined Valyria, with the intention of plundering the wealth and sorcery he was sure still remained. The fleet never returned, nor Tommen, nor Brightroar.

 

Spoiler from TWOW regarding the cost of VS:

 

Euron's VS armor which he brought back from Valyria is said to have had the going rate of a kingdom back in the day

 

Now my main issue with daggers being as common as swords is that if you are already spending such sums, you want an heirloom weapon that would serves for generations to come, both in war and for show. A sword carried much more prestige than daggers even in our world in several places around the globe, so I think it is safe to say that we are talking mainly about swords.

[Prince Viserion]

Isn't Robert's hammer made of Valyrian Steel?, It doesn't have to be a sword.

[Radish Knight]

28 minutes ago, Sand-Dragon said:

Isn't Robert's hammer made of Valyrian Steel?, It doesn't have to be a sword.

Wouldn't make sense for a war hammer.
Valyrian steel is famous for being incredibly sharp, durable and lightweight, which makes it perfect for bladed weapons. Robert's war hammer was so heavy Ned couldn't even lift it.
 

Though if I remember correctly Robert's war hammer had a spike, which Valyrian steel would be useful for? (perhaps you were referring to that?)

It's unlikely that house Baratheon has a Valyrian steel sword unless it has been completely lost to memory; Stannis would know about it and so Melisandre would have sought it out as a candidate for Lightbringer.

It they had a Valyrian steel sword, I feel like it would have been mentioned somewhere, given that they are now the royal house. 

If it has been lost to memory for whatever reason, maybe JonCon will find it in Storm's End? Lol

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

2 hours ago, Sand-Dragon said:

Isn't Robert's hammer made of Valyrian Steel?, It doesn't have to be a sword.

No, it was forged by Donal Noye. Some smiths can rework Valyrian steel, but none alive can forge it new. 

[Corvo the Crow]

The fact Mormonts on their poor island has one is more interesting than why Baratheons don't have one.

Who knows, Perhaps Hoares were the former owner of Longclaw and they lost it along with the island.

[Lord Varys]

The Baratheons and the Velaryons should have had at least one Valyrian steel sword each, perhaps even more.

How the Baratheons lost theirs could have been an interesting story in TWoIaF. The Dance would have provided an interesting opportunity as would the War of the Ninepenny Kings. Lord Ormund Baratheon died there early on, and some sellswords could have made off with his Valyrian steel sword.

The Velaryons could still have one. Considering their ancestry as well as Corlys Velaryon being the richest man in Westeros at one point it is almost impossible that this man didn't have the resources to afford a Valyrian steel sword.

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

12 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The Baratheons and the Velaryons should have had at least one Valyrian steel sword each, perhaps even more.

How the Baratheons lost theirs could have been an interesting story in TWoIaF. The Dance would have provided an interesting opportunity as would the War of the Ninepenny Kings. Lord Ormund Baratheon died there early on, and some sellswords could have made off with his Valyrian steel sword.

As the Baratheons were descended from an unrecognised illegitimate branch, it's possible they weren't passed one. If they had one and lost it, we probably would have heard of it, much like Brightroar.

It seems that the Targaryens only had two valyrian swords, if they had a third, Rhaenys probably would have had one before Orys. 

[Stormking902]

Even the Sea Snake with all of his wealth and influence on both Westeros and Essos wasnt able to buy a VS sword because they are just that rare, Tywin was trying for years to purchase a VS sword from poor houses but even they refused to sell there familys most prized possesssion. Simply put the Dondarrions could afford to buy one sure but they never found one is the problem.