Is Dany really Dany?

[Voice]

6 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Naked and splashing in the pool, you can't tell the low-born from the high-born. We have Daenerys the first to thank for that.  

We'll have to see if Dany visits the Water Gardens and anything looks familiar. I'd love it if Doran bought Rhaella's crown and has been keeping it safe all these years and gives it to Dany.

 

Dornish childhoods sure do sound (and smell) a lot like the childhood for which Dany yearns.

Braavos?

Not so much.

[Ygrain]

45 minutes ago, maudisdottir said:

And all these twists turn the story into a ridiculous soap opera, where every second character is either back from the dead or not who they think they are.  If these theories are true, I'm going to be so disappointed in GRRM.

Amen to that. I really can't imagine why anyone thinks this should be good writing.

8 hours ago, nanother said:

I agree that the logistics of a baby swap between Rhaella's non-existing/stillborn/short-lived/mysteriously vanished child and (f)Dany would be rather difficult to handle, and also that it'd be tricky to get Viserys to co-operate. Yet, there might be ways it's possible.

While the OP argues for Viserys being in on Illyrio's plan, the only way I can imagine Viserys playing along is if he genuinely believes that Dany is his sister. From what we're shown, he's not disciplined enough to maintain such a ruse for years, nor would Varys and Illyrio be careless enough to trust him to do so. Which means that Raella likely gave birth to a living child (or else a stillborn one, but with a suitable replacement available right then and there) which somehow got swapped without Viserys noticing (or else he noticed something was wrong but was somehow brainwashed into believing it was his sister) Obviously, while it seems quite complicated altogether, the younger the kid (and the younger Viserys is), the easier it would be to pull this off.

Indeed - that's the only way it could work, with Viserys not knowing and the baby swapped almost instantly. However, this sinks the whole lemongate - Dany couldn't have been swapped after birth and simultaneously living in Dorne.

 

Quote

Now, I seem to recall hearing somewhere that it's possible, although very rare for one to have memories from (or maybe even before) the age of two. Of course, we have no way of knowing what Martin knows or thinks about the subject, and how much he wants to adhere to scientific facts in the first place - with this being fiction, and fantasy at that, and Dany being magical, I think it's not impossible for her to have at least impressions and images from some outrageously young age (2-3 definitely, maybe 1 or younger??).

I recall such information, as well, but I'd say that Dany's memories are too detailed for that (e.g. Darry's soft hands), and given the above, she would be an infant. 

Quote

Mind you, it's still something of a challenge to construct a plausible scenario for the baby swap, and I don't have the time to try and come up with one ATM. But allowing more wiggle room in Dany's age at the time certainly helps.

It still doesn't explain why Stannis or Robert believed there was a babe - well, of course, Varys could have fed them false information beforehands, but I don't think that Stannis wouldn't realize something was very wrong if he was enquiring about a child that never existed

- Which leads us back to Dany being swapped very early on and the lemongate losing the reason for its existence.

Quote

BTW, regarding the Small Council watching the pair - worth keeping in mind that the spymaster is none other than Varys, who's in cahoots with Illyrio. So, as long as he's their main source of information, and they're the ones pulling Viserys's strings (which they almost certainly are), the Council would likely only know what Varys& Illyrio want them to know. And again, with the swap being smoother if we allow Dany to be younger, the risk would be reduced even further.

That is a fair point but the rock that sank it is above :-)

 

 

[SFDanny]

Further evaluation of the evidence for Dany not being Dany

The Flight to Dragonstone

The essay tries to make a big deal about the only place in which Willem Darry was mentioned to have accompanied Rhaella and Viserys is in Ned's Tower of Joy dream sequence.  While this much is true, it is not surprising that Ned would mention this in his conversation with the Kingsguard at the Tower of Joy. He is, in his dream, talking to three men who would be expected to play the same role as Darry as protectors of the royal family. Why it becomes a mystery for the author that others speaking about the fact Rhaella and Viserys went to Dragonstone after the news of the Trident and they leave out Darry is puzzling. Not that them leaving Darry's name out is puzzling, but that the author manufactures a mystery based on others not mentioning hm is puzzling.

Why should Jaime talk about Ser Willem going to Dragonstone when he goes with the Queen and Viserys? He isn't speaking of who escorted them. He isn't mentioning anyone in their entourage. Darry is just left out as all the others are who go with the Queen and the young prince. And the same can be said of Yandel's history. He just isn't focused on the servants, no matter their title. Perhaps the author is trying to make a claim the royals went without any servants because none are mentioned, but I doubt anyone can take such a claim seriously.

There is also a curious attempt to pit one Jaime quote against another. Jaime clearly includes Viserys in one quote, "Aerys packed the queen off to Dragonstone with Prince Viserys" and leaves Viserys name out of the next,"Jaime had only seen Rhaella once after that, the morning she left for Dragonstone." The problem here is the author leaves out the context of the second quote. Jaime is talking about seeing Rhaella after he had to stand out side her door while Aerys raped and brutalized her. Obviously, Viserys is not mentioned to being present at the rape, and there is no reason Jaime would mention him while thinking on the last time he say Rhaella after that night.

Then the author tries to make a claim of oddity for the difference between Jaime remembering seeing Rhaella leave in the morning, and Dany's account of a "midnight flight to Dragonstone, moonlight shimmering on the ship's black sails." Others have tried to explain the difference, and it is likely RT has it right that this is a mistake in mixing up the sail to Dragonstone, with the escape from Dragonstone. Other explanations could work as well, but the most important thing is this is not Daenerys's memory. It is Viserys's story. So when we are constructing a case for Dany not being Dany based on her supposed mistaken or faulty memory of events it make no sense to include Viserys's memories as belonging to her.

This is another case of making a mystery out of thin air with nothing to support it truly being in question. 

We have accounts that place Rhaella, Viserys, Dany, and Ser Willem all on Dragonstone. They come from sources such as Stannis Baratheon, Ned Stark, the Citadel, Viserys and Dany herself. There is no mystery here.

Lemongate

The major problem here is what I and others have stated over and over. It is not the same to say Lemon trees are not native to the climate of Braavos - which is TRUE, and to say Lemon trees cannot grow in Braavos - which is totally FALSE. Lemon trees are grown in the foggy climes of San Francisco, though they are not native here. Kingmonkey has posted a picture of a lemon tree in Norway. Also not a native climate for the tree. And on and on it can go. It is just wrong to mistake the two. 

The author makes this mistake when he states, "Because Braavos cannot grow lemons." He is simply wrong in his assertion.

But here I want to say something I DO agree with in this essay. The fact there is a lemon tree that grows outside the window of Daernerys's house in Braavos is clearly important, and clearly a clue to the reader. It's just not a clue Daenerys is raised someplace other than Braavos when she remembers the house and the tree. Nor is it in anyway a clue that casts doubt on Dany being Dany.

What does the lemon tree tell us? It tells us that Dany's memories of living in a little house with red door and a lemon tree outside the window means this isn't an ordinary house in Braavos. This is a house of someone who is wealthy enough to have the extravagance of growing a lemon tree in Braavos. The Sealord and his gardens, including a zoo with freaking dinosaurs, springs to mind as just such a person who might have a lemon tree on his grounds with gardeners to care for it. The pact the Sealord signs would also reinforce his involvement as a possibility.

But more than just the idea that one Sealord of Braavos may have given the Targaryen refugees haven in his city and on his palace grounds, this raises the question of just how much political support did the Targaryen children have in the Free Cities and where did it come from?

Far from a childhood existence of unsheltered refugees, the lemon tree is a clue of powerful support for them. With two primary sources of that power topping the list - the Sealord of Braavos, and/or the Prince of Dorne. Instead of a bare existence on the streets of the Free Cities, Viserys and Daenerys are shuttled from Targaryen supporter to Targaryen supporter across this area of Essos. 

We would surely like to know when the lemon tree arrives in Braavos? Is it sent from the Prince of Dorne to the Sealord as a sign to the Targaryens that Dorne has not forgotten them? I think so. It might even arrive with Prince Oberyn when he comes to Braavos to sign the pact. Prince Doran moves slowly with his plans, and his plan to marry Viserys to Arianne is an old one. It seems highly unlikely he abandons the children to their own devices without attempts of at least covert support. If, as seems to be the case given the Arianne chapters in ADwD, Doran has been pushing his plot for years, then leaving the Targaryens to starve or to be thrown on to the streets seems unlikely. He just cannot be overt in his support (like harboring the Targaryens in Dorne) or letting their survival in the Free Cities be tied to his orders or money. It also raises the question of if there are other loyalist lords who use their influence in Essos to help the royals.

How much support is maintained by individual supporters may well depend on how well they get to know the new King Viserys III Targaryen. But I think it clear it is not likely that Viserys gets the title "the Beggar King" because he has a begging bowl out on the streets of the Free Cities. It's because he has to go from city to city trying to find someone who will continue in their support of him after having met him.

Obviously, the answers to these questions could have a huge impact on, not just our understanding of backstory details (why did Illyrio give Dany the three dragon eggs?) but also it may effect both the story of Aegon's acceptance by parts of the Westerosi nobility, and Dany's own reception when she finally arrives.

more later

[Black Crow]

My grandfather died when I was about two going on three. Aside from photographs I do have a memory of him - though why I link that memory with him I really don't know - which amounts to nothing more than being held against a brown waistcoat with thin, lighter coloured stripes.

I offer this because Dany's memories of Darry, without the aid of photographs, although incomplete are much stronger which suggest that he was with her rather later in life.

[Ygrain]

57 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

I offer this because Dany's memories of Darry, without the aid of photographs, although incomplete are much stronger which suggest that he was with her rather later in life.

That is my reading, as well.

 

As for the lemon tree: unless Doran sent a huge one in a pot, I'd say it preceded the Targaryen presence in Braavos. - But it still might suggest the same thing: ties between Dorne and Braavos, and thus an explanation why Darry chose Braavos as their destination and why Oberyn and Darry felt it was safe to have the Sealord witness their secret pact - a pact that would place Dorne in a rather precarious position, had it become known to Robert.

[SFDanny]

3 hours ago, Black Crow said:

My grandfather died when I was about two going on three. Aside from photographs I do have a memory of him - though why I link that memory with him I really don't know - which amounts to nothing more than being held against a brown waistcoat with thin, lighter coloured stripes.

I offer this because Dany's memories of Darry, without the aid of photographs, although incomplete are much stronger which suggest that he was with her rather later in life.

BC, my own memories of my father are very similar to yours with your grandfather. He died almost exactly two months before I turned four, and the earliest memory of him that I can date is around going to cut down a christmas tree in the woods to bring home for our family, the christmas before. You used to do that type of thing once upon a time in rural America. Anyway, that is the December before when I had just turned three. I remember mental pictures and emotions of him, but nothing about his voice. Hang on to those memories, my friend.

The point being, Dany's memories are depicted as much more detailed which would make me think as well it is from later in her life. Of course, this is fiction, and George certainly didn't ask my opinion on what memories a child would retain at different stages of life. He could have made up whatever he wanted, but I think you're probably right.

2 hours ago, Ygrain said:

As for the lemon tree: unless Doran sent a huge one in a pot, I'd say it preceded the Targaryen presence in Braavos. - But it still might suggest the same thing: ties between Dorne and Braavos, and thus an explanation why Darry chose Braavos as their destination and why Oberyn and Darry felt it was safe to have the Sealord witness their secret pact - a pact that would place Dorne in a rather precarious position, had it become known to Robert.

I would think that is how one would transport a tree. A sapling in a large pot. Large enough to contain the root structure with soil. I can't say I'd hazard a guess what that means for a small tree. I don't have a clue about how hard it is to transplant young lemon trees. Perhaps you would have to grow them from seed. But I think that brings other problems.

But I agree with the observation about ties between Dorne and Braavos.I'd only add that the Sealord takes on some political risk as well by putting his signature to the pact even as a witness. Not the risk Dorne does perhaps, but, if nothing else, there must be some local political rivals who might object to angering the new King in Westeros.

For this theory, the pact is something that puts almost insurmountable obstacles to seeing how it could be done. We know Darry is in Braavos and he signs for Viserys. We know both the Red Viper and the Sealord are going to  only sign such a pact with a man they know to be Willem Darry, and know to be the guardian of Viserys. All of which fits Dany's memories.

On the other side we have fanciful images of Potemkin villages created to raise a false Daenerys, with no explanation of how the false Dany is substituted for the real, and for god's sake, a satisfactory reason why they would do such thing? It defines crackpot.

[Ygrain]

13 minutes ago, SFDanny said:

I would think that is how one would transport a tree. A sapling in a large pot. Large enough to contain the root structure with soil. I can't say I'd hazard a guess what that means for a small tree. I don't have a clue about how hard it is to transplant young lemon trees. Perhaps you would have to grow them from seed. But I think that brings other problems.

My exMIL had a potted lemon tree, almost two metres tall. The problem with most trees is that the older they are, the bigger the risk when repotting or replanting. It can be done, but it is better to transport them young and then plant in the ground, to allow them to grow the root system properly. The size of the root system is basically the size of their crown. 

13 minutes ago, SFDanny said:

But I agree with the observation about ties between Dorne and Braavos.I'd only add that the Sealord takes on some political risk as well by putting his signature to the pact even as a witness. Not the risk Dorne does perhaps, but, if nothing else, there must be some local political rivals who might object to angering the new King in Westeros.

That's why I think that the theory which ties Viserys and Dany's eviction to the death of the Sealord sounds very reasonable. IMHO, first there was a new Sealord who wouldn't shelter the young Targlings, and that's why after Darry's death the servants dared to rob the children which led to their eviction.

13 minutes ago, SFDanny said:

For this theory, the pact is something that puts almost insurmountable obstacles to seeing how it could be done. We know Darry is in Braavos and he signs for Viserys. We know both the Red Viper and the Sealord are going to  only sign such a pact with a man they know to be Willem Darry, and know to be the guardian of Viserys. All of which fits Dany's memories.

On the other side we have fanciful images of Potemkin villages created to raise a false Daenerys, with no explanation of how the false Dany is substituted for the real, and for god's sake, a satisfactory reason why they would do such thing? It defines crackpot.

These schemes make Potemkin sound as a total loser

[SFDanny]

1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

My exMIL had a potted lemon tree, almost two metres tall. The problem with most trees is that the older they are, the bigger the risk when repotting or replanting. It can be done, but it is better to transport them young and then plant in the ground, to allow them to grow the root system properly. The size of the root system is basically the size of their crown. 

Ahh ... someone with actual experience! I take your word for all of this. My experience is minimal and long ago, and not with lemon trees at all. It does seem from what you say that the Dornish could ship a tree to Braavos, with or without Prince Oberyn as escort.

2 hours ago, Ygrain said:

That's why I think that the theory which ties Viserys and Dany's eviction to the death of the Sealord sounds very reasonable. IMHO, first there was a new Sealord who wouldn't shelter the young Targlings, and that's why after Darry's death the servants dared to rob the children which led to their eviction.

I agree it's very reasonable.

2 hours ago, Ygrain said:

These schemes make Potemkin sound as a total loser

Too true! 

[Ygrain]

1 minute ago, SFDanny said:

Ahh ... someone with actual experience! I take your word for all of this. My experience is minimal and long ago, and not with lemon trees at all.

Not like first-hand experience, but I do know a thing or two about gardening. And a year or two ago, I visited chateau gardens which sported almonds and figs, which don't normally grow in our climate. The figs were getting some light cover for winter, almonds not even that. They were just placed at an elevated spot, against a south-facing wall.

[Little Scribe of Naath]

8 hours ago, SFDanny said:

Far from a childhood existence of unsheltered refugees, the lemon tree is a clue of powerful support for them. With two primary sources of that power topping the list - the Sealord of Braavos, and/or the Prince of Dorne. Instead of a bare existence on the streets of the Free Cities, Viserys and Daenerys are shuttled from Targaryen supporter to Targaryen supporter across this area of Essos. 

We would surely like to know when the lemon tree arrives in Braavos? Is it sent from the Prince of Dorne to the Sealord as a sign to the Targaryens that Dorne has not forgotten them? I think so. It might even arrive with Prince Oberyn when he comes to Braavos to sign the pact. Prince Doran moves slowly with his plans, and his plan to marry Viserys to Arianne is an old one. It seems highly unlikely he abandons the children to their own devices without attempts of at least covert support. If, as seems to be the case given the Arianne chapters in ADwD, Doran has been pushing his plot for years, then leaving the Targaryens to starve or to be thrown on to the streets seems unlikely. He just cannot be overt in his support (like harboring the Targaryens in Dorne) or letting their survival in the Free Cities be tied to his orders or money. It also raises the question of if there are other loyalist lords who use their influence in Essos to help the royals.

How much support is maintained by individual supporters may well depend on how well they get to know the new King Viserys III Targaryen. But I think it clear it is not likely that Viserys gets the title "the Beggar King" because he has a begging bowl out on the streets of the Free Cities. It's because he has to go from city to city trying to find someone who will continue in their support of him after having met him.

Obviously, the answers to these questions could have a huge impact on, not just our understanding of backstory details (why did Illyrio give Dany the three dragon eggs?) but also it may effect both the story of Aegon's acceptance by parts of the Westerosi nobility, and Dany's own reception when she finally arrives.

Very nice way of interpreting it, SFDanny. If Doran had actually been involved in providing some covert support to the Targs while they were in Essos, it makes Dany's rejection of Quentyn all the more tragic and sore for Doran.

Ties up the plot hole of "What was Doran doing all these years?" as well. 

[SFDanny]

1 hour ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

Very nice way of interpreting it, SFDanny. If Doran had actually been involved in providing some covert support to the Targs while they were in Essos, it makes Dany's rejection of Quentyn all the more tragic and sore for Doran.

Ties up the plot hole of "What was Doran doing all these years?" as well. 

Thank you. I agree with the observation about the plot hole, especially. Now, if the realization that the Targaryens had powerful friends trying to help them also helps us look for who might be behind the gift of the three eggs, I will be very happy. That is a huge plot hole that has grown larger with the revelation that Varys and Illyrio never really wanted Viserys on the throne.

[Little Scribe of Naath]

7 minutes ago, SFDanny said:

Thank you. I agree with the observation about the plot hole, especially. Now, if the realization that the Targaryens had powerful friends trying to help them also helps us look for who might be behind the gift of the three eggs, I will be very happy. That is a huge plot hole that has grown larger with the revelation that Varys and Illyrio never really wanted Viserys on the throne.

What if those three eggs came from Egg's cache of 7 at Summerhall? Maybe Varys got hold of it in the Red Keep.

But I don't know if anyone would have ever expected those three eggs to be hatched, so I think it was just a wedding gift to Dany. Maybe some of the other eggs have been kept for fAegon.

OTOH, there was Bran's vision in AGOT of dragons in Asshai, so Illyrio's story that he procured them from there may not be false.

[SFDanny]

2 hours ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

What if those three eggs came from Egg's cache of 7 at Summerhall? Maybe Varys got hold of it in the Red Keep.

But I don't know if anyone would have ever expected those three eggs to be hatched, so I think it was just a wedding gift to Dany. Maybe some of the other eggs have been kept for fAegon.

OTOH, there was Bran's vision in AGOT of dragons in Asshai, so Illyrio's story that he procured them from there may not be false.

Perhaps, I'd like to know, of course, if Rhaella brings them to Dragonstone, and Darry onto Braavos. for deposit in the Iron Bank for safekeeping. Is Illyrio giving, under his name, what was already the Targaryen's, or is he playing the front for someone else? The oft mentioned brother of the Archon of Tyrosh (AGoT 30) is a suspect to watch. He shows up at the party thrown in Pentos in which Dany meets Khal Drogo.

Regardless, it seems odd that Illyrio has them to give, and that he would give them to Dany, even given he doesn't expect them to hatch. These are extremely expensive treasures, and the symbolism for the Targaryens is beyond price. Perhaps only behind Blackfyre, the sword of the Conqueror, are Dragon eggs as symbols of the last dragon riders of the Freehold. Why give them to Daenerys while trying to put Aegon on the throne? The answer may be in the covert politics of Targaryen supporters.

[Ygrain]

3 hours ago, SFDanny said:

Thank you. I agree with the observation about the plot hole, especially. Now, if the realization that the Targaryens had powerful friends trying to help them also helps us look for who might be behind the gift of the three eggs, I will be very happy. That is a huge plot hole that has grown larger with the revelation that Varys and Illyrio never really wanted Viserys on the throne.

That is an interesting idea! Though, I am still inclined to believe that the dragon eggs were simply part of a Targaryen princess package :-)

On a second thought, I wonder: Dany was considered expendable and supposed to die soon. Viserys couldn't have been expected to survive the Dothraki, either (and I do believe that "you shouldn't do XY" - "no-one tells a dragon what to do!" was pretty predictable and that Illyrio's tight-lipped smile suggested that Viserys did exactly as he was meant to). So, to whom would Drogo then fulfill his promise of an army? Aegon, as Dany's relative? Illyrio, as the giver of the eggs (and Dany as well, in a way)?

 

 

[Frey family reunion]

On 9/14/2016 at 4:00 PM, Ygrain said:

I do not understand. Why would it be more convenient to converge with a more distant and way more dilluted bloodline when you can create "critical mass" right in the family?

You're forgetting that with Viserys' death, Dorne lost its access to the throne. Hence, Quentyn has to step in because Doran can't really marry Ariane to Dany.

And don't you think that such a thing should have been mentioned, for example when Dany muses that she knows what it is like to be sold because Viserys sold her to Drogo? If there had been other attempts to sell her, it would have been mentioned. Most likely, in her very first PoV.

I think GRRM may be hinting that certain magical traits are passed on through the female.  For example, I think skinchanging may be one trait.  I think dragon hatching may be another trait passed on from the mother.  Since the current Targaryen line descends from Viserys II (a male who couldn't even ride a dragon) and the daughter of a Lysenian banker, my guess is the royal Targaryen bloodline would have lacked the necessary gene or bloodline to hatch a dragon.  Now the last dragon hatched that we know of is Baela who married Alyn Velaryon, so the female dragon hatching line may have survived through her and House Velaryon, and through any other Houses they may have married into.  We also don't know if Aegon III's Velaryon bride who had Dawna and Elaena possessed a dragon hatching gene or not.  If she did that gene could have gone down the line to Blackfyre, Waters, Plumm ect.  Either way if dragon hatching is a maternal trait, then it probably was lost to House Targaryen after the Dance.

Perhaps, you're correct about Doran's plans with Quentyn and Dany, but I think Doran's interest in Dany may have more to do with her dragons.  Dany's actual "legitimacy" becomes less of issue with the dragons.

No I don't think Dany would have ever been made aware of any attempts to use her as a bargaining chip to obtain an army.  In fact Dany would have been the very last person to know.  It's not like they are asked her permission when they finally brokered a marriage contract with her and Drogo.  

[SFDanny]

Could it be that dragon eggs hatch more easily when there are dragons in the world? When the magic in the world is stronger with the presence of dragons? The inability of Targaryens to hatch dragons may have less to do with whether the trait is gone, but more with the strength of the trait needed to hatch a dragon without dragons in the world.

[SFDanny]

11 hours ago, Ygrain said:

That is an interesting idea! Though, I am still inclined to believe that the dragon eggs were simply part of a Targaryen princess package :-)

It's been too long since I've looked over the official Targaryen princess bridal registry. You could well be right, Ygrain! Who has those listings now? The Iron Bank, or was it the shadow master's guild in Asshai?

11 hours ago, Ygrain said:

On a second thought, I wonder: Dany was considered expendable and supposed to die soon. Viserys couldn't have been expected to survive the Dothraki, either (and I do believe that "you shouldn't do XY" - "no-one tells a dragon what to do!" was pretty predictable and that Illyrio's tight-lipped smile suggested that Viserys did exactly as he was meant to). So, to whom would Drogo then fulfill his promise of an army? Aegon, as Dany's relative? Illyrio, as the giver of the eggs (and Dany as well, in a way)?

Do the Dothraki even value the eggs at all? I don't know what they would do with them if Dany and Viserys had died. Given no one thought they would hatch, it still seems a terribly extravagant gift to Dany, if she is expendable. Why not give them to Young Griff as more proof of his heritage? It seems to me there is another layer of power politics being played behind the scenes with the gift of the eggs we don't see yet.

[Ygrain]

6 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

I think GRRM may be hinting that certain magical traits are passed on through the female.  For example, I think skinchanging may be one trait.  I think dragon hatching may be another trait passed on from the mother.  Since the current Targaryen line descends from Viserys II (a male who couldn't even ride a dragon) and the daughter of a Lysenian banker, my guess is the royal Targaryen bloodline would have lacked the necessary gene or bloodline to hatch a dragon.  Now the last dragon hatched that we know of is Baela who married Alyn Velaryon, so the female dragon hatching line may have survived through her and House Velaryon, and through any other Houses they may have married into.  We also don't know if Aegon III's Velaryon bride who had Dawna and Elaena possessed a dragon hatching gene or not.  If she did that gene could have gone down the line to Blackfyre, Waters, Plumm ect.  Either way if dragon hatching is a maternal trait, then it probably was lost to House Targaryen after the Dance.

The problem is, this detailed knowledge doesn't come from the series proper, where it should have been introduced long ago, along with other hints, that it is the female line which matters. Now, are there any such hints in the series? If the Bael story is true, then the lordship of Winterfell was passed down through the female line, but I don't recall anything supernatural tied to that, nor any such cases in other families.

Plus, that Arya quote: woman is important too. I think this hints rather at balance, a common contribution, rather than prevalence of the maternal line.

6 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

No I don't think Dany would have ever been made aware of any attempts to use her as a bargaining chip to obtain an army.  In fact Dany would have been the very last person to know.  It's not like they are asked her permission when they finally brokered a marriage contract with her and Drogo.  

And it's not like Viserys knew when to keep his trap shut, either. He is the last person capable of keeping secrets I can think of. And given his personality, I think that had there been previous unsuccessful dealings about Dany as a bargaining chip, he would have blamed the failure on her for not growing up quickly enough. He's the guy who blamed her for not being born earlier, after all.

1 hour ago, SFDanny said:

It's been too long since I've looked over the official Targaryen princess bridal registry. You could well be right, Ygrain! Who has those listings now? The Iron Bank, or was it the shadow master's guild in Asshai?

I think Varys might have come across those in the tunnels under Maegor's

1 hour ago, SFDanny said:

Do the Dothraki even value the eggs at all? I don't know what they would do with them if Dany and Viserys had died. Given no one thought they would hatch, it still seems a terribly extravagant gift to Dany, if she is expendable. Why not give them to Young Griff as more proof of his heritage? It seems to me there is another layer of power politics being played behind the scenes with the gift of the eggs we don't see yet.

I don't think they would value them for being dragon eggs but they would be aware that they are very valuable property.  A gift worthy of a khal.

But a layer of politics that we don't see yet, behind something introduced at the beginning of AGOT, is an intriguing thought.

[Little Scribe of Naath]

@SFDanny

There's an aspect here to be considered though: Does Doran know what Illyrio/Varys intended for Dany? I doubt that he'd be in cahoots with them, considering his overtly cautious and untrusting personality. So we're looking at two seperate Targ-interested factions here, I think, with possibly conflicting motives.

You're right though, that the Archon of Tyrosh is a guy to watch: Doran had wanted to send Arianne there so that she could meet Viserys, and the Archon's daughter spent time in the Water Gardens. Doran has pretty good connections with that guy, for sure.

[SFDanny]

3 hours ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

@SFDanny

There's an aspect here to be considered though: Does Doran know what Illyrio/Varys intended for Dany? I doubt that he'd be in cahoots with them, considering his overtly cautious and untrusting personality. So we're looking at two seperate Targ-interested factions here, I think, with possibly conflicting motives.

You're right though, that the Archon of Tyrosh is a guy to watch: Doran had wanted to send Arianne there so that she could meet Viserys, and the Archon's daughter spent time in the Water Gardens. Doran has pretty good connections with that guy, for sure.

@Little Scribe of Naath It's a very important question, and I don't think we can answer it yet. Did Doran know of the planned wedding to Khal Drogo and approve of it? We just don't know for sure, but we can be fairly certain even if the Prince of Dorne has agreed with the marriage in order to gain Dothraki allies, he almost certainly would not have agreed to let Viserys go along. That part directly undermines Doran's own plan to wed Viserys to Arianne. I don't buy the argument that Illyrio could not have stopped him, even if meant drugging his drink until Drogo's khalasar is gone. Viserys is stone cold nuts, but he is not a formidable man,  Certainly not one someone with Illyrio's resources cannot stop.

What is likely is that at some point, based on who knows what, Prince Doran views Illyrio as an ally enough that he seemingly does nothing to stop the Targaryens from living with him. The degree of Doran's knowledge of Varys's involvement is key. Is Varys's one of those people Doran believes is a secret friend? I'm not yet convinced of that, although @Lord Varys and other posters I respect seem to think this is so.