Is Dany really Dany?

[Frey family reunion]

14 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

 

You mean, just like the warging abilities of the Stark ancestors are dilluted in later generations? Ah, wait...

Not to mention that as a daughter of Aerys and Rhaella, Dany has Targ genes from both sides. Might actually account for something, given that the Valyrian incest was established in order to maintain something in their bloodlines.

Open-minded =/= automatically embracing any idea, especially when its faults are glaring.

Yes, the Starks are a pretty good example of just what I'm talking about.  We actually have no evidence as Starks as wargs at least in a number of generations, not until Ned's marriage to Cat.  What I'm proposing is that the Stark kids may have inherited their warg abilities from their maternal side, or perhaps there were recessive bloodlines both in Cat and Ned necessary to pass on the gift.  It's Varamyr a powerful skin changer who comments that none of his many runts by various women ever showed any signs of having his talent.  This makes me think that it is passed on through the mom, not the dad.

Martin's trap is to get us to focus so much on the pretty sigils, and the important family names, that we tend to forget all we are doing is focusing on paternal bloodlines.  There are also maternal bloodlines that run between various Houses, they don't have sigils, and they don't have a family crest, but they may be the bloodlines necessary to pass on certain magical bloodlines.

What we need to stop focusing on is the last name of the characters.  The key is the bloodlines, and it doesn't matter whether it is from a "legitimate" birth or an "illegitimate" one.

It doesn't really matter that Dany's parent are both Targaryen.  They are also both brother and sister whose parents were both brother and sister.  So their genetic makeup would be the same as that found in the children of Aegon and Betha Blackwood.  I think that in order for the bloodline to return to the "purer" bloodline of Aegon, it would have almost certainly required a bastard birth for Dany.  I think she is either the child of Aerys or Rhaella but I doubt she is the child of both.

[Lurid Jester]

28 minutes ago, LynnS said:

No, the tone is set.  Anyone reading or deeming the thread worthy of consideration is wacky.  Have you notified the author?  Asked him to comment.  Was it really necessary to editorialize in this manner?  Why is it so threatening? 

Wow.  You seem overly excited by this.  Relax. It an Internet forum, not an article in the Mew York Times.  There is no expectation of an unbiased account.  

[Scorpion92]

Kudos OP! I am currently working on an essay that gives a possibility about Dany being Ned Stark and Ashara Dayne's bastard daughter, I will get back to here with quotes. There is so much mystery surrounding House Dayne, but if you go through LmL's essays, there are some hints of House Dayne's connection to Great Empire of the Dawn - the original place of dragonriders. That is why Dany sees GEoD Emperors in House of Undying - her mother side's bloodline. Fire can have both positive (light, warmth, hope) and negative (destruction, chaos, burning) sides to it. Dany embodies both aspects of fire, which nicely combines her pure Dayne bloodline with her Targaryen upbringing.

And if I can convince people with this theory, then everything falls back into place. Jon and Dany are actually cousins, ying and yang of this story, each of them is a balance of ice and fire on their own, one is Stark bastard raised as Targaryen trueborn (Dany) while reverse is true for the other (Jon). Their son, who I believe will be Eddard Stark, First of His Name, shall be known as "prince that was promised", "the SONg of ice and fire". But neither Jon nor Dany will survive this story, as I believe Tyrion and Sansa are endgame rulers of the Game.

Therefore, it excludes Dany entirely as being one of three headed dragon like on the sigil of Targaryens.

I think the three headed dragons are Jon (Drogon color scheme), Jaime (Viserion color scheme) and Cersei (Rhaegal color scheme) if Lannister twins are indeed Aerys' bastards (again, deep reversal of bastard status between Jon and Jaime/Cersei). Note that these three ARE NOT dragonriders, who I believe to be Dany with Drogon, Tyrion with Viserion, and Samwell Tarly with Rhaegal. That is right, I do not think that "true Targaryens" of this story will ever ride a dragon. But that is a topic for another discussion.

As I said, still gathering proof, but it will be an entertaining writing.

 

[kimim]

3 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Yes, the Starks are a pretty good example of just what I'm talking about.  We actually have no evidence as Starks as wargs at least in a number of generations, not until Ned's marriage to Cat.  What I'm proposing is that the Stark kids may have inherited their warg abilities from their maternal side, or perhaps there were recessive bloodlines both in Cat and Ned necessary to pass on the gift.  It's Varamyr a powerful skin changer who comments that none of his many runts by various women ever showed any signs of having his talent.  This makes me think that it is passed on through the mom, not the dad.

Martin's trap is to get us to focus so much on the pretty sigils, and the important family names, that we tend to forget all we are doing is focusing on paternal bloodlines.  There are also maternal bloodlines that run between various Houses, they don't have sigils, and they don't have a family crest, but they may be the bloodlines necessary to pass on certain magical bloodlines.

What we need to stop focusing on is the last name of the characters.  The key is the bloodlines, and it doesn't matter whether it is from a "legitimate" birth or an "illegitimate" one.

It doesn't really matter that Dany's parent are both Targaryen.  They are also both brother and sister whose parents were both brother and sister.  So their genetic makeup would be the same as that found in the children of Aegon and Betha Blackwood.  I think that in order for the bloodline to return to the "purer" bloodline of Aegon, it would have almost certainly required a bastard birth for Dany.  I think she is either the child of Aerys or Rhaella but I doubt she is the child of both.

I think this is uncertain, given the fact that magic has started returning to the world in the beginning of story. I think that return triggers both the Stark warging ability and Targ fire-dragon magic; maternal-paternal lineage has little to do with it. It may have also triggered Thoros's ability to resurrect people, which is weirder than anything the Starks and the Targs manage. Thoros says that "...I am not the false priest you knew. The Lord of Light has woken in my heart. Many powers long asleep are waking, and there are forces moving in the land. I have seen them in my flames."

My sense is that had Varamyr lived long enough to sire more kids, they would have had better odds of being wargs, not because of the warging ability of their mother, but because all things magical are making a comeback. 

 

[Ygrain]

22 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Yes, the Starks are a pretty good example of just what I'm talking about.  We actually have no evidence as Starks as wargs at least in a number of generations, not until Ned's marriage to Cat.

Actually, the mention of Lyanna's as well as Brandon's superb riding skills might actually point to a warging ability. And they were children of a Stark-Stark union.

22 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

 What I'm proposing is that the Stark kids may have inherited their warg abilities from their maternal side, or perhaps there were recessive bloodlines both in Cat and Ned necessary to pass on the gift.  It's Varamyr a powerful skin changer who comments that none of his many runts by various women ever showed any signs of having his talent.  This makes me think that it is passed on through the mom, not the dad.

Or perhaps the gene "jumps" generations, most likely through recessivity. And unless I missed some information from the World Book, the Tullys have no warging history at all.

Or rather, it is wild and unpredictable. For example, not all Targs had prophetic dreams, not even among siblings of the same parents.

22 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Martin's trap is to get us to focus so much on the pretty sigils, and the important family names, that we tend to forget all we are doing is focusing on paternal bloodlines.  There are also maternal bloodlines that run between various Houses, they don't have sigils, and they don't have a family crest, but they may be the bloodlines necessary to pass on certain magical bloodlines.

"Woman is important too!"

22 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

What we need to stop focusing on is the last name of the characters.  The key is the bloodlines, and it doesn't matter whether it is from a "legitimate" birth or an "illegitimate" one.

With that I can agree. What further matters, though, is the perception of the Westerosi who would rather seek to conceive legitimate offspring if they attempted to breed someone special.

22 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

It doesn't really matter that Dany's parent are both Targaryen.  They are also both brother and sister whose parents were both brother and sister.  So their genetic makeup would be the same as that found in the children of Aegon and Betha Blackwood.  I think that in order for the bloodline to return to the "purer" bloodline of Aegon, it would have almost certainly required a bastard birth for Dany.  I think she is either the child of Aerys or Rhaella but I doubt she is the child of both.

Please, explain how a bastard line keeps a higher percentage of Targ genes unless through strict intermarrying. And then show some textual basis for such a bloodline existing.

[Frey family reunion]

41 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

 

Please, explain how a bastard line keeps a higher percentage of Targ genes unless through strict intermarrying. And then show some textual basis for such a bloodline existing.

Sure.  The text has hinted at a number of Targaryen offshoots that are descended slightly more recently from dragon riders than the current line of House Targaryen:  

1) House Velaryon:  The current line springs from Alyn of Hull Velaryon (not a dragon rider) and Baela Targaryen a dragon rider.  Recently Cersei's initial reaction to a bastard of a recent Lord Velaryon is how similar he looks to Rhaegar (at least at first glance).

2) House Blackfyre: descended from Aegon Targaryen III a dragon rider (until seeing his mother eaten by one) and Daenaera Velaryon (unknown whether she could ride or hatch a dragon but let's assume she couldn't).  This line is passed on maternally through Daena the defiant with Daemon Blackfyre and progeny, and 

3) House Plumm: probably descended from Aegon III's daughter Elaena and possibly Aegon IV

4) House Longwaters: probably descended from Aegon III's daughter Elana and Alyn Velaryon.

I'm sure I'm missing some but these are the ones most heavily discussed in the main story.

So my guess one or more of these bloodlines were probably introduced via an illicit affair to Dany.  If Dany wasn't born on Dragonstone and if she did spend at least a few years of her early life in a place other than Braavos, then my guess is, we're going to find out she may have been a bastard of Aerys and a descendant of one or more of those branches.  If she was born to Rhaella on Dragonstone, then my guess is we're going to find out that Aerys wasn't her father.  And there is a third much more crackpot possibility that I won't get into other than saying it would be a complete inverse of the King Arthur conception story.

[Little Scribe of Naath]

Since Dany would have to be around 5-6 years old for her to remember this hypothetical lemony place where she lived, what was Viserys doing for that time? And how did he suddenly accept a "sister" presented to him as Daenerys Targaryen (considering that he was 8 when he was on DS, so he was old enough to know if his mother had a stillborn at the time, or was not even pregnant, whichever). Now, why would he agree to take care of a "sister"  with dubious origins, considering his limited resources and ahem, less-than-large- hearted personality?

[Frey family reunion]

17 minutes ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

Since Dany would have to be around 5-6 years old for her to remember this hypothetical lemony place where she lived, what was Viserys doing for that time? And how did he suddenly accept a "sister" presented to him as Daenerys Targaryen (considering that he was 8 when he was on DS, so he was old enough to know if his mother had a stillborn at the time, or was not even pregnant, whichever). Now, why would he agree to take care of a "sister"  with dubious origins, considering his limited resources and ahem, less-than-large- hearted personality?

If Dany was brought in later, then I think she would have been younger than five or six.  Our memories can reach back to the age of about 3 and a half years.  If she was as late as 5 or 6 she probably would have had a better memory of her first home.  So my guess is she would have been brought to Braavos around the age of three.  Perhaps at the time that Oberyn and Willem sign the marriage contract between Arianne and Viserys.  (interestingly enough no marriage contract exists with Dany and Quentyn).

And it would have been Viserys limited resources that ironically enough may have been the reason that he was given a girl to pass off as his sister.  Viserys needed a coin to purchase an army.  It is doubtful that Dorne would have agreed to have supported Viserys claim without Viserys bringing a military force to the table.  A Targaryen Princess however, would have given him a bargaining chip to use to try and bring in another ally.  And in fact that is exactly what happens, they use Danaerys to "hire" Drogo's horde.

[Dorian Martell]

11 hours ago, SFDanny said:

Snip

Yes, Dany is Dany. Until the author shows us differently, and he so far has not shown anything, she is who she says she is. 

[JLE]

I do not believe there is any doubt that Daenerys was born on Dragonstone, nor that her mother was Rhaella Targaryen.

Although that does give a rather long period of fertility for Queen Rhaella, or implies that she was very young indeed at Rhaegar's conception: the actual Wiki of Ice & Fire suggsts 245 (more likely) or 246 for Rhaella's birth - but 259 for Rhaegar, so Rhaella was no older than 14 when she had her first child (!) She could have been 15 if she was born in late 244 rather than in 245 or 246 (assuming that she is not Aerys's twin, she must be at least nine months younger than him: nothing is stated on the matter, which suggests they are not twins since this would have been a thing worthy of noting.)

So... Aerys born early in 244, Rhaella possibly late in 244 or early in 245: Rhaegar born in 259, at the time of the Summerhall Tragedy (and must have been conceived earlier, if not then the full 9 months then sufficiently close to them, even if he could have been a bit premature: although first babies are more usually late than early.) Either way she was still pretty young when they married and conceived their first child, even if we assume that the conception was on her wedding night (it certainly was not before, as the siblings did not apparently have any great affection for each other.

(And, if Barristan is correct in remembering that Rhaella at one time had a crush on Ser Bonifer Hasty, she must have been even younger at that time.)

There being almost 25 years between Rhaegar's birth and Daenerys's, this still allows Queen Rhaella to be about 40 when Daenerys was born.

[Little Scribe of Naath]

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

If Dany was brought in later, then I think she would have been younger than five or six.  Our memories can reach back to the age of about 3 and a half years.  If she was as late as 5 or 6 she probably would have had a better memory of her first home.  So my guess is she would have been brought to Braavos around the age of three.  Perhaps at the time that Oberyn and Willem sign the marriage contract between Arianne and Viserys.  (interestingly enough no marriage contract exists with Dany and Quentyn).

I'm not following. If she was three when she was brought to Braavos, she couldn't have remembered her earlier life in Dorne - her earliest memories would begin from Braavos. Yet there are no lemon trees in Braavos, so then she couldn't have remembered a lemon tree at all.

Plus this assumes that Stannis, after landing on Dragonstone, does not question the people there and learn the fate of Rhaella. If he had learnt that Rhaella hadn't been pregnant at all and then, three years later, a sister had popped up for Viserys out of nowhere, Varys would have got wind of it and the Small Council would have suspected a rat straightaway.

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

And it would have been Viserys limited resources that ironically enough may have been the reason that he was given a girl to pass off as his sister.  Viserys needed a coin to purchase an army.  It is doubtful that Dorne would have agreed to have supported Viserys claim without Viserys bringing a military force to the table.  A Targaryen Princess however, would have given him a bargaining chip to use to try and bring in another ally.  And in fact that is exactly what happens, they use Danaerys to "hire" Drogo's horde.

This doesn't make sense, for four reasons:

i) If Viserys needed coin to purchase an army, why not just give him money or dragon eggs, as we know Illyrio had? Selling even one would make him rich enough to purchase an army.

ii) Why would anyone want to hire the Dothraki for a serious invasion of Westeros? It's pretty common knowledge that they hate crossing the water (As Ned tells Bob), their military tactics are a joke as compared to Westerosi armies, and an army made up of them is guaranteed to be hated by the Westerosi as their life principles are pretty much the same as the IronBorn. That's basically Illyrio/Varys' plan for fAegon in AGOT before Dany hatches three dragons.

When you have actual sellsword companies like the Golden Company in the free Cities, why the hell will Doran, a cautious man to the extreme, go for this? 

iii) If a bargaining chip had to be brought in for Viserys, at the age of three, he'd have been around ten at the time - old enough to realise it was not his sister. Why would he go to all the trouble he did for someone who was not his real sister? It doesn't square with what we know of Viserys' personality.

iv) What is Illyrio and Varys' role in all this? We know from AGOT that it was Illyrio who brokered the match between Drogo and Dany, so are we to assume they were in cahoots with Dorne for a Targ-Martell restoration? If so, why would Doran trust a cheesemonger from Pentos with his plans?

[PrettyPig]

3 minutes ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

iv) What is Illyrio and Varys' role in all this?

Well, look at it another way.   Ask why Illyrio and Varys seem from the onset to be more supportive of Dany, the younger of the surviving Targaryens and female to boot, rather than her older male brother who is being propped up as rightful king of Westeros?   Sure, they are going through the motions with Viserys, playing along with his delusions ("yeah yeah, sure sure, you get an army, riiiight"), but read through those early chapters again...even before the dragons appear on scene, they're taking pretty good care of Dany, far more care than I'd expect for a girl that was supposed to die somewhere in the Dothraki sea.  She gets the marriage, she gets the Westerosi advisor (Jorah), she gets the dragon eggs.....    Also, the small council in King's Landing seems to be far more interested in the goings-on of Dany than they are in Viserys, who's supposedly the one mustering the army and posing the threat.

So here we have the trueborn son of Aerys and Rhaella Targaryen that no one seems to give much of a damn about, and his baby sister who seems to be interesting to everyone.   Then, baby sis goes to hatch dragons, a feat that her ancestors haven't been able to achieve for a century+, as @frey family reunion has pointed out.   Is it really so far out of left field to wonder if perhaps Dany is - special - somehow?   That perhaps her blood makes her special?  Blood that is actually different from that of her idiot brother?

"Viserys was Mad Aerys's son, just so. Daenerys … Daenerys is quite different." He popped a roasted lark into his mouth and crunched it noisily, bones and all. "The frightened child who sheltered in my manse died on the Dothraki sea, and was reborn in blood and fire. This dragon queen who wears her name is a true Targaryen."

 

 

[Ygrain]

2 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Sure.  The text has hinted at a number of Targaryen offshoots that are descended slightly more recently from dragon riders than the current line of House Targaryen:  

1) House Velaryon:  The current line springs from Alyn of Hull Velaryon (not a dragon rider) and Baela Targaryen a dragon rider.  Recently Cersei's initial reaction to a bastard of a recent Lord Velaryon is how similar he looks to Rhaegar (at least at first glance).

2) House Blackfyre: descended from Aegon Targaryen III a dragon rider (until seeing his mother eaten by one) and Daenaera Velaryon (unknown whether she could ride or hatch a dragon but let's assume she couldn't).  This line is passed on maternally through Daena the defiant with Daemon Blackfyre and progeny, and 

3) House Plumm: probably descended from Aegon III's daughter Elaena and possibly Aegon IV

4) House Longwaters: probably descended from Aegon III's daughter Elana and Alyn Velaryon.

I'm sure I'm missing some but these are the ones most heavily discussed in the main story.

So my guess one or more of these bloodlines were probably introduced via an illicit affair to Dany.  If Dany wasn't born on Dragonstone and if she did spend at least a few years of her early life in a place other than Braavos, then my guess is, we're going to find out she may have been a bastard of Aerys and a descendant of one or more of those branches.  If she was born to Rhaella on Dragonstone, then my guess is we're going to find out that Aerys wasn't her father.  And there is a third much more crackpot possibility that I won't get into other than saying it would be a complete inverse of the King Arthur conception story.

Well, and now a question, please: how are these offshot branches more Targaryenish than the Targaryens themselves, when they don't practice incest?

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

If Dany was brought in later, then I think she would have been younger than five or six.  Our memories can reach back to the age of about 3 and a half years.  If she was as late as 5 or 6 she probably would have had a better memory of her first home.  So my guess is she would have been brought to Braavos around the age of three.  Perhaps at the time that Oberyn and Willem sign the marriage contract between Arianne and Viserys.  (interestingly enough no marriage contract exists with Dany and Quentyn).

And why should there by a contract for Dany and Quentyn, when they could be used to bring in more allies?

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

And it would have been Viserys limited resources that ironically enough may have been the reason that he was given a girl to pass off as his sister.  Viserys needed a coin to purchase an army.  It is doubtful that Dorne would have agreed to have supported Viserys claim without Viserys bringing a military force to the table.  A Targaryen Princess however, would have given him a bargaining chip to use to try and bring in another ally.  And in fact that is exactly what happens, they use Danaerys to "hire" Drogo's horde.

So why didn't he make a marriage contract for his sister earlier? It's not like he hadn't been trying to get some support for years; why not sell his "sister" right away? Yet, it seems that the idea that he might exchange her for an army hit him only during his stay in Pentos.

[Little Scribe of Naath]

33 minutes ago, PrettyPig said:

Well, look at it another way.   Ask why Illyrio and Varys seem from the onset to be more supportive of Dany, the younger of the surviving Targaryens and female to boot, rather than her older male brother who is being propped up as rightful king of Westeros?   Sure, they are going through the motions with Viserys, playing along with his delusions ("yeah yeah, sure sure, you get an army, riiiight"), but read through those early chapters again...even before the dragons appear on scene, they're taking pretty good care of Dany, far more care than I'd expect for a girl that was supposed to die somewhere in the Dothraki sea.  She gets the marriage, she gets the Westerosi advisor (Jorah), she gets the dragon eggs.....

This again requires the text to be ignored completely - the talk with Varys in red keep, the presence of Young Griff, all of it. Doesn't answer the question as to why Doran would trust a cheesemonger in Pentos and Varys of all people, with his plans. 
 

Illyrio and Varys have raised a fTarg alright, but that's not Dany. Elsewise, they would have kept their super special-blood Dany for YG, not Viserys.

Quote

Also, the small council in King's Landing seems to be far more interested in the goings-on of Dany than they are in Viserys, who's supposedly the one mustering the army and posing the threat.

Evidence in the text for this? 

Quote

Viserys was Mad Aerys's son, just so. Daenerys … Daenerys is quite different." He popped a roasted lark into his mouth and crunched it noisily, bones and all. "The frightened child who sheltered in my manse died on the Dothraki sea, and was reborn in blood and fire. This dragon queen who wears her name is a true Targaryen."

This is after Dany has hatched her dragons, so obviously she is a true Targaryen if she's accomplished such an event. 

33 minutes ago, PrettyPig said:

Is it really so far out of left field to wonder if perhaps Dany is - special - somehow?   That perhaps her blood makes her special?  Blood that is actually different from that of her idiot brother?

No? Why would it? 

If you suggest that she is Rhaegar's daughter and hence different from Viserys, that makes no sense. The Unworthy was the father of Daeron the Good, and he didn't turn out like him. Aerion and Egg had the same parents (blood) as well and were completely different from each other. Rhaegar was the son of Mad Aerys, just as Viserys. Dany can be Aerys' daughter and still turn out different from her father.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

Way to do a poor half hearted attempt to explain a theory that clearly isn't yours while running a horribly biased commentary... Definition of a straw man here...

however, it's a great topic!

so let's just do a quick runthrough of some of the major problems with the version of Dany's past we've been told...

Rhaella's troubles having children: Whatever the reason it seems like she and Aerys lost a lot of kids, not evidence of anything but shouldn't just be dismissed.

Flight to Dragonstone: First, timeline wise, Jaime remembers standing outside the king's door with Jon Darry when Rhaella was raped (and Dany supposedly conceived) meaning that it happened before the Battle of the Trident, since that's where Jon Darry died. Second, Viserys told Dany (who "would picture the way it had been, so often had her brother told her stories") about the midnight flight under black sails... Except Jaime remembers Rhaella leaving King's landing in the morning!

Stormborn: If the Targaryen fleet was completely destroyed, what boat did they flee on?

Ser Willem Darry (A good man and true): we never get a real description of him from anyone besides Dany so it's hard to make a comparison. But we do know Willem Darry was the master at arms who taught Rhaegar how to fight, and yet she describes him with soft hands (and grey a color usually associated with Maesters). A hot moist sickly smell clung to him, which is odd if they were in Braavos judging by what we see of the description of Aemon being sick there (hint:it's cold). Also, smell is associated by Dany with "Home" more than once, like the perfumes of her childhood she buys later in the market (of course Braavos smells like fish not flowers)

Lemon Tree: Probably the most popular detail to pick out, Dany remembers a tree outside her window, Lemons don't come from Braavos, a cold city without trees. Dorne is famous for them, and the first Daenerys was the one who brought Dorne into the Seven Kingdoms and for her was built the Water Gardens (lots of citrus, and children).

Travels in Essos: Dany's itinerary doesn't have her returning to Braavos, which she later remembers doing under a green sail. The stops don't make sense in that order but I'm not trying to nitpick even that far.

Usurper's Knives: "The Usurper's Knives were close behind them, he insisted, though Dany had never seen one." And we now know that up until the start of the series none had been sent. This lie is repeated by both Viserys and Illyrio...

 

Anyway those are just a few things from Dany's first chapter that stand out... There's plenty more for those willing to keep an open mind. Like why does she speak High Valyrian when Viserys does not? Who taught her, a Maester?

 

Of course if you haven't retread her first two chapters I recomend it, so many odd bits of phrasing stick out upon another look...

 

I'll just finish with this, her first chapter is packed with insinuations of lies and her suspicions of Illyrio... It starts with Viserys and Illyrio trying to make her look like a princess (and being horribly sexually abusive), and ends with Viserys telling her what to do, and her obeying... 

"Smile," Viserys whispered nervously, his hand falling to the hilt of his sword. "And stand up straight. Let him see that you have breasts.  Gods know, you have little enough as is." 

Daenerys smiled, and stood up straight.

And I didn't even get into the connections between Lyanna and Dany!

[Runaway Penguin]

The lemon is a red herring. It may not be native to Braavos... But then oranges are not native to Paris, but almost every chateau hasd its own Orangerie. Heck, Prague castle has orangerie and that is even colder. 

 

Small council is interested in Dany momentarily, because it is through her that Viserys MAY get an army. Plus she is potentially carrying another Targ in her womb.  If Small cOuncil was not paying attention, they do not deserve their coin... Oh, wait

[kimim]

25 minutes ago, PrettyPig said:

Well, look at it another way.   Ask why Illyrio and Varys seem from the onset to be more supportive of Dany, the younger of the surviving Targaryens and female to boot, rather than her older male brother who is being propped up as rightful king of Westeros?   Sure, they are going through the motions with Viserys, playing along with his delusions ("yeah yeah, sure sure, you get an army, riiiight"), but read through those early chapters again...even before the dragons appear on scene, they're taking pretty good care of Dany, far more care than I'd expect for a girl that was supposed to die somewhere in the Dothraki sea.  She gets the marriage, she gets the Westerosi advisor (Jorah), she gets the dragon eggs.....    Also, the small council in King's Landing seems to be far more interested in the goings-on of Dany than they are in Viserys, who's supposedly the one mustering the army and posing the threat.

So here we have the trueborn son of Aerys and Rhaella Targaryen that no one seems to give much of a damn about, and his baby sister who seems to be interesting to everyone.   Then, baby sis goes to hatch dragons, a feat that her ancestors haven't been able to achieve for a century+, as @frey family reunion has pointed out.   Is it really so far out of left field to wonder if perhaps Dany is - special - somehow?   That perhaps her blood makes her special?  Blood that is actually different from that of her idiot brother?

"Viserys was Mad Aerys's son, just so. Daenerys … Daenerys is quite different." He popped a roasted lark into his mouth and crunched it noisily, bones and all. "The frightened child who sheltered in my manse died on the Dothraki sea, and was reborn in blood and fire. This dragon queen who wears her name is a true Targaryen."

 

 

They're interested in both Dany and Viserys in the weirdest way possible, though. In the conversation Arya overhears, Varys and Illyrio are bemoaning the fact that Littlefinger is encouraging splits in Westeros while Drogo is still dithering. If they wanted Dany, Viserys, and Drogo to sail over and smite the place, surely they'd be going along with Littlefinger's plans for chaos: A weak Westeros will obviously be easier to conquer than a strong Westeros, with people like Tywin, Robert, Ned, etc., united in its defense. Yet they are hoping that Drogo, Dany, Viserys show up while Westeros is still united. It's weird.

On the hatching of dragons: Remember that magic is getting stronger. This is why all five of Ned's kids can warg, why Thoros can raise the dead, why the pyromancers of KL are shocked at how easy it is to produce wildfire. I think this is also why Dany can survive the fire and birth dragons: Something has triggered her dormant magic.

I believe that they're talking about madness there. Viserys was "mad Aeryr's son," in that Viserys was as mad as his daddy. Daenerys is "quite different," in that she is not mad. She is a "true Targaryen," in the same way that many people describe Rhaegar, Aerys's son, as the "last Targaryen." They have the best qualities of Targs, not their madness.

 

 

 

 

[Ygrain]

4 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Rhaella's troubles having children: Whatever the reason it seems like she and Aerys lost a lot of kids, not evidence of anything but shouldn't just be dismissed.

You should re-read the OP. It was not strange for Rhaella to conceive. Plus, statistically, given all the stillbirth etc., Dany's survival is not all that unlikely. The gap between Rhaegar and Viserys was even bigger, yet no-one wonders if Viserys is not his parents' son.

4 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Flight to Dragonstone: First, timeline wise, Jaime remembers standing outside the king's door with Jon Darry when Rhaella was raped (and Dany supposedly conceived) meaning that it happened before the Battle of the Trident, since that's where Jon Darry died.

And this is a problem how? It is not stated anywhere that Rhaella sailed the next morning. After Chelstead was burnt (and Rhaella raped), Rossart was made Hand and didn't live long. Rhaella's injuries wouldn't have healed meanwhile.

4 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Second, Viserys told Dany (who "would picture the way it had been, so often had her brother told her stories") about the midnight flight under black sails... Except Jaime remembers Rhaella leaving King's landing in the morning!

Viserys also believes that all of Westeros awaits his return and women sew Targaryen standards secretly. He seems to have had quite some romanticising tendencies - doesn't mean that the core of his story is incorrect.

BTW, how long does it take to reach Dragonstone, is this mentioned anywhere?

4 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Stormborn: If the Targaryen fleet was completely destroyed, what boat did they flee on?

Fleet consists of warships. And they were anchored around the island to keep off Stannis. I hope you don't think that people living on an island do not possess other ships, for fishing, trading and the like, which would be anchored in a port and thus more sheltered?

4 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Ser Willem Darry (A good man and true): we never get a real description of him from anyone besides Dany so it's hard to make a comparison. But we do know Willem Darry was the master at arms who taught Rhaegar how to fight, and yet she describes him with soft hands (and grey a color usually associated with Maesters). A hot moist sickly smell clung to him, which is odd if they were in Braavos judging by what we see of the description of Aemon being sick there (hint:it's cold).

You're seriously drawing conclusions from the condition of an ill man whose exact symptoms and diagnosis we are never told? We do know that his illness was prolonged, do you think the skin on his palms would be the same as when he could still wield his sword?

4 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Lemon Tree: Probably the most popular detail to pick out, Dany remembers a tree outside her window, Lemons don't come from Braavos, a cold city without trees. Dorne is famous for them, and the first Daenerys was the one who brought Dorne into the Seven Kingdoms and for her was built the Water Gardens (lots of citrus, and children).

Lots of trees which don't come from certain places still can be planted and grown there just fine.

4 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Travels in Essos: Dany's itinerary doesn't have her returning to Braavos, which she later remembers doing under a green sail. The stops don't make sense in that order but I'm not trying to nitpick even that far.

She also remembers crossing the Narrow Sea half a hundred times or so. Apparently, the itinerary is not complete.

4 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Usurper's Knives: "The Usurper's Knives were close behind them, he insisted, though Dany had never seen one." And we now know that up until the start of the series none had been sent. This lie is repeated by both Viserys and Illyrio...

Oh? And what else does this show than Viserys being his paranoid father's son?

4 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Anyway those are just a few things from Dany's first chapter that stand out... There's plenty more for those willing to keep an open mind.

Ah, the magics of an open mind. Why is it that every time a theory is shot down on the basis of critical thinking, open mind is invoked.

4 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Of course if you haven't retread her first two chapters I recomend it, so many odd bits of phrasing stick out upon another look...

I'll just finish with this, her first chapter is packed with insinuations of lies and her suspicions of Illyrio... It starts with Viserys and Illyrio trying to make her look like a princess, and ends with Viserys telling her what to do, and her obeying...

"Smile," Viserys whispered nervously, his hand falling to the hilt of his sword. "And stand up straight. Let him see that you have breasts.  Gods know, you have little enough as is." 

Daenerys smiled, and stood up straight.

Yes, Illyrio lies and Dany notices while Viserys doesn't, on that we can agree. But I don't see what it has to do with Dany supposedly not being Dany.

[Frey family reunion]

52 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

Well, and now a question, please: how are these offshot branches more Targaryenish than the Targaryens themselves, when they don't practice incest?

And why should there by a contract for Dany and Quentyn, when they could be used to bring in more allies?

So why didn't he make a marriage contract for his sister earlier? It's not like he hadn't been trying to get some support for years; why not sell his "sister" right away? Yet, it seems that the idea that he might exchange her for an army hit him only during his stay in Pentos.

The issue isn't that these bloodlines are more "Targaryenish" than the Targaryens, the issue is that I think these divergent bloodlines including the current Targaryen one, have to come back together.  And the only way they could have done that in Dany's case is if she was not the daughter of Aerys and Rhaella.  One perhaps, but not both.

If Dorne is the one who supplied Daenaerys for Viserys (and perhaps the fact that they chose the name Daenaerys is a bit of a clue), then they wouldn't have had a marriage contract for Dany, because they knew she wasn't the real deal.  Dany was meant to dupe someone else.  But of course once the dragons hatched, Dany became a pretty attractive match for Quentyn all of a sudden.

How do you know they didn't try to use Dany as collateral earlier?  All we know is that the Golden Company turned Viserys down.  We don't know what or who Viserys offered them.  

[Runaway Penguin]

9 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

 

Fleet consists of warships. And they were anchored around the island to keep off Stannis. I hope you don't think that people living on an island do not possess other ships, for fishing, trading and the like, which would be anchored in a port and thus more sheltered?

 

Not to mention a fleet can be completely destroyed without literally losing all ships. Few would dispute that Spanish Armada was completely destroyed by storms. Still, plenty of ships made it home. Plenty did not. And the fleet did not...

 

I guess this is my problem with a lot of theories, crackpot or otherwise - way too often they hinge on taking hyperbole literally and the other way around