Sansa is truly one of the best characters and her development is fascinating

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

I've actually come to the point now where I read Sansa threads mainly for the interesting sociological observations. You only have to read the things people write in their defamation of her to get a great insight into society and our attitudes towards women, and young women in particular. 

 I found your OP a bit too sugar coated, I understand the desire to defend her in light of the extremely unbalanced criticisms she receives. But it is important to look at her and be critical too. But lets face it those criticisms are pretty  mild in comparison to some characters in ASOIAF. 

 

I'm taking my kids to school right now. But will be back later to expand. I look forward to reading the disproportionate reactions when i get back. It's astonishing how venomous people can get about an 11-13 year old. And in some cases I do wonder about the drivers behind such unbalanced thoughts.  

[siyxx]

I have this problem arranging my thoughts so I'm not sure if I'm making a lot of sense. I was one of those who despised Sansa a lot at first but as the story progressed I kinda did change my mind about it (not that I'm a born-again Lemoncaker or anything, mind you). Her story was one of the interesting ones, and I'm looking forward to seeing her character matures into some manipulative, strong, clever player in the game of thrones. But as of now I don't think her character has "developed" that much, not in the book anyway.  

I mean, it's more like how the unfortunate turn of events had left her in shock and now she lived in this more composed and careful state to save her own ass. For one thing, she didn't like Joffrey anymore and that made her become more likable in an instant. That could be misunderstood for a development when in fact she just fell out of love with her despicable crush and returned to the sensible side. Deep down I feel that she's still the same hopeless romantic, slightly self-absorbed and naive girl not so different from the one in pre-Winterfail (sorry for my poor joke).

She didn't seem to really have learned much from her past mistakes (like I'm still waiting for the day she finally admitted that she lied and brought Lady to her doom and it's not entirely Arya's fault). It's still a long way to go for her. Maybe if we talked about TV sansa and her path to badassery who gave zero f*** cold-bloodedly murdering Ramsey without batting an eye, well yeah maybe that's the kind of "development" I am talking about.. 

 

12 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Sansa is busy getting her father killed... 

Hah! I was just like you before..but maybe not anymore. There're way more hate-worthy characters out there in the ASOIAF universe 

I think it might be a bit exaggerating to say she's the one who got her father killed. I mean, let's be real about this; her father was actually the one who got her father killed (or maybe Joffrey since he's the one who came up with the execution thing). But Ned pretty much brought it to himself by honorably confronting Cersei about her secret and all that cringeworthy schemes. By going to Cersei, Sansa just made it easier for Cersei to initiate the scheme to capture Ned and the girls. Sansa just made herself a target, unable to flee the city (and she's the one who suffered from this the most).   

 

13 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Unfortunatly, Ned should have lectured Sansa instead,

I agree with you on this one. Maybe one of the problems was that Ned seemed to favor Arya over Sansa. Sansa was her mother's daughter, but for Ned, his young tomboy daughter was easier to approach and talk to (also maybe Arya reminded him of Lyanna). I agree that maybe all the speeches about wolfpack and family thing should have been said to Sansa just to slap her back to some sense, but for some reason Ned didn't. Ned seemed to omit a lot of stuff when talking to his teenage daughter, who seemed to need things clarified more than his younger one. Maybe that too, was also one of his honest mistakes. 

OK, wait, I'm not trying to blame Ned just to whitewash Sansa's behaviors or anything. I'm just trying to understand her and why people hate her so much. Why did I hate her so much. It's probably we all know a person like her at least once in our lives, and just like any privileged, spoiled, mean, self-centered people in the world, the traits usually come from their upbringing. She's the most beautiful girl in Winterfell, Septa Mordane adored her, her mother adored her, she got her own clique (with Jeyne as loyal sidekick), The It Boy (Joffrey) seemed to be into her. She's only 11 years old! Of course it's easy for her to forget how the earth did not orbit around her. So she's just being mean, selfish and bratty like teenagers half the world.

I came from a girl school so I knew about a hundred girls who were just like Sansa at that age. I end up befriending some of them because some people did grow up to be a better, more tolerable, less selfish human being. Maybe that's the case for Sansa, too. 

 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Ok, so. When we view Sansa's character development it is important not to white wash her, all characters in this series are grey. Even Jon Snow who many describe as the Garry-Sue of ASOIAF, has his darker moments and questionable decisions.

Sansa was 11 when we met her and behaved very much like a privileged 11 year old. And anyone who has had an older sister, or even whose been on a village primary school play ground; can tell you how the top girl in the family/school behaves. When you get a small to moderate sized group of children, always one girl emerges as top girl, and she usually has a few flanking BFF's who will facilitate her reign. Things alter when the group is much bigger, because it gets diluted by sheer numbers.  But Winterfell is a small to moderate sized establishment when it comes to the children Arya & Sansa socialise with.  Sansa's & Jeyne's behaviour and atitude is exactly fitting for that scenario. And there is nothing especially evil or overly cruel about it, it's general run of the mill childhood behaviour.  Was it mean to call Arya Horseface. Yes of course it bloody was! Was it evil, no.  

We get several insights into the girls relationship throughout the novels and at no point does it emerge that they had an especially or unusually adversarial position to one another. They have a very typical sisterly relationship in fact.  GRRM has done a great job with this. We get snippets of meanness, snippets of jealousy, snippets of protectiveness, and snippets of joy and unity from both sisters when they reflect upon each other and their childhood at Winterfell.  Accounts of them sneaking into the crypts, of them laughing and having a snowball fight, and in TWOW 

Spoiler

of the three girls running together through the courtyard of the castle.

Along side memories of taunts from the older girls, of bossy behaviour over Arya's "boyishness" and of Arya purposefully excluding Sansa from secrets with Jon. Nothing in their memories sets them us as mortal enemies whose reunion will be fraught with aggression and anger. The author has said they will have issues to sort out for certain, but that does not equate to some form of fight. It means they will have things to discuss apologies to be made and probably some tears. 

But the fandoms insistence on portraying the two sisters as being in some sort of competition is very interesting, so often you see the question posed Arya or Sansa? and you are expected to pick sides. When in reality we can like and appreciate both for their individual qualities. The OP was spot on when they said that this often comes back to our attitude towards traditional feminine attributes.  One of the most unpleasant social effects of feminism has been the emulation of trad masculinity as a means to gaining equality. Because we as a society view traditionally perceived masculinity as superior, in order for women to attain the social respect and status they crave emulation of what our culture believes to be masculine has become normal. just think about the common phrases and attitudes of western society. 

I'm more like a lad

I don't have girls as friends because of the Drama

You throw like a girl

don't be such a girl

I could go on, the list is almost endless! But you get the idea.

It's especially evident in the professional, political, and business worlds. Women have to be more man than the men to get ahead.  

I know growing up I soon realised I got far more kudos for the fact I was into pastimes thought of as male, I still, at 35 get men slack jawed and astounded when I tell them I used to play warhammer, that I read fantasy and and my favourite film genre is Sci Fi.  Not so long ago I posted a picture of an Ork I painted on Instagram, only to have one bloke who had stood on the other side of the bar to me post, "Holy shit, you weren't fibbing!" I laughed.   I have been a bar maid on and off at several points in my life, and when a bit drunk they loosen their tongues.  "But you really don't look like the kind of girl (because even though I'm practically middle aged and have three children, society still deems me a girl.) who likes that kind of stuff."  Oh and then quizzing you to check you aren't just saying it to look cool. Haha, yes every time you get some clever dick who proceeds to give to 20 questions. It is identical when it comes to the music scene, you can't possibly really be into whatever band, cos you are a lass, you must just be saying it to look cool. I bet you can't really play guitar!

Because we inherently equate male pastimes as more worthy, male opinions as more weighty and male hobbies as cooler.  And women who take an interest in trad male hobbies are either given extra bonus points for doing so. Or doubted as to their authenticity.  I tend to get really confused looks when I mention that I also decorate cakes, sew, knit, am an amazing cook, and am obsessed with clothes and make up. And to be honest generally speaking I look very much like your average lass about town. It was worse when I was in my twenties, I have enormous boobs, was skinny (three kids later not so much. haha)  and had long blonde hair. People tended to get extremely confused when they would be trying to chat me up and I'd begin talking about my latest historical fiction novel or some documentary I'd enjoyed on iron age archaeology. 

Sansa embodies the trad fem pastimes we have spent so many years taking the piss out of, where as Arya embodies the "tomboy" cool girl stereotype I was discussing above.  Thus we tend to place the two at odds, expecting everyone to pick sides, with Arya of course coming out as the cooler of the two.  But I really think it is high time we embraced both. 

Now Sansa made some fuck ups. But claiming ignorance at the Trident wasn't one of them, it was in fact a very astute choice. She was expected to become the Baratheon's good daughter, take their name, and marry their heir. To piss off Joffrey - her future husband and King would have been stupidity personified. She took the only sensible option open to her. That had horrible consequences of course. But the consequences of telling the truth would have at that time have been just as horrible. A lifetime saddled to a family who resent you, doubt your loyalty to them and their son, a husband who will hold it against you possibly for ever. Who will likely bring it up at every argument for the next 45 years.  No thank you! And she also didn't drop her sister in it, she didn't lie to make Joffrey out as innocent, or to please him, she just said I can't recall.  She did not at that time have a better option, it should have never have gone as far as it did, and the King or her father were the only people capable of alleviating her dilemma, had Ned stepped in and broken the betrothal, she could have told the truth, had Robert refused to countenance such an absurd trial, and instead disciplined his "son" all could have been avoided. Besides all of which loosing the girls Direwolves was an essential plot point, under no circumstances could Lady & Nymeria have accompanied them to KL. Because their story lines there and going forwards in the books simply can not work as they do with each of them having a great hulking Direwolf at her side! 

Onto her other great crime, yes she told Cersei of Ned's plan to escape KL with them both, that is undeniably a shit thing she did, she had her reasons, and Ned failed utterly to correctly inform her of the circumstances of their leaving, or the seriousness of the situation, he failed to correctly supervise his daughters whereabouts during what was an extremely dangerous and volatile period and as a result Sansa got captured. Syrio got killed and Arya ended up on the run.  Ned however was primarily the instrument of his own downfall because he himself went to Cersei, told her his plan, and trusted the least trust worthy person in KL. Silly Ned.  Stating the circumstances of her betrayal does not equal whitewashing her. It is simply that there is a lot more going on here than - girl betrays father's secret.   She did not have either the full information as to what was going on nor the maturity of mental capacity to assess the danger in their situation for herself.  

But the way some people discuss this part of the text is really telling because you'd think she swung the sword at Ned's neck herself whilst gleefully laughing based on them. 

Now the meat and bones of the story can be discussed. Sansa's story is excellent! so well written, subtle, powerful, and interesting. She; like her siblings and Dany is on a journey of self discovery. The main characters of the series (and yes GRRM now refers to Sansa as one of the big 6) are all essentially on a coming of age arc. Even Tyrion whom is a lot older and of course a grown man is in a way. Because he is so emotionally immature at the start of the series.  It is clear her story and character has immensely altered from his initial concept of her. And I am so glad it has, because her story is fantastic.  It is one of self discovery as I said, but hers is one so often quietly ignored. She is a young girl schooled and groomed to be the perfect, docile, obedient wife. She has been raised on a diet of love stories, pretty gowns, tales of true love and chivalry, golden gilded lies designed to cow her into acceptance of what is essentially a life of being sold off to some bloke to breed heirs and broker political advantage for her family. It isn't too dissimilar to real world conditioning that girls receive to woo them into marriage. Secular society is of course not as bad anymore but as someone who grew up in a coercive religion, I see a lot of parallels. 

Sansa slowly gains agency as she is freed from first the constraints of familial expectations, and then the bonds of captivity in KL. She see's and learns an awful lot, and the hurt she goes through shapes the woman she is becoming, alongside her own burgeoning sexuality influencing her thoughts, desires and hopes for the future. She no longer subscribes to the idea that the beautiful and great are inherently good. She no longer trusts adults to have her best interests at heart, she no longer believes everything she is told, she learns to discern for herself peoples motivations and she is defining what she wants for herself.  She even realises that Septa Mordane was full of shit when she told her she can find something to love in every man.  Of course in real world we put the onus on the woman to make a relationship work and this is well reflected in Westeros too. Sansa is conditioned to appease, obey, please and strive for her future marriage to be successful, but upon being forced into marriage which such a hugely objectionable husband she decides fuck this shit and sets out to form her own opinions and feelings about relationships. 

Sansa's journey is far from complete, just like the rest of out crew she has s long way to travel and a lot to learn. But we see clearly as of AFFC how she is changing and where her path is leading her. And I feel it is a really important story. Her story is one which is headed towards self realisation, agency, autonomy, and owning her own sexuality as well as her own life path. It's a quiet one compared with some of the other characters arcs, but it is just as worthy of discussion and admiration as anyone else's. 

 

[Protagoras]

1 hour ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Now Sansa made some fuck ups. But claiming ignorance at the Trident wasn't one of them, it was in fact a very astute choice. She was expected to become the Baratheon's good daughter, take their name, and marry their heir. To piss off Joffrey - her future husband and King would have been stupidity personified. She took the only sensible option open to her. That had horrible consequences of course. But the consequences of telling the truth would have at that time have been just as horrible. A lifetime saddled to a family who resent you, doubt your loyalty to them and their son, a husband who will hold it against you possibly for ever. Who will likely bring it up at every argument for the next 45 years.  No thank you! And she also didn't drop her sister in it, she didn't lie to make Joffrey out as innocent, or to please him, she just said I can't recall.  She did not at that time have a better option, it should have never have gone as far as it did, and the King or her father were the only people capable of alleviating her dilemma, had Ned stepped in and broken the betrothal, she could have told the truth, had Robert refused to countenance such an absurd trial, and instead disciplined his "son" all could have been avoided. Besides all of which loosing the girls Direwolves was an essential plot point, under no circumstances could Lady & Nymeria have accompanied them to KL. Because their story lines there and going forwards in the books simply can not work as they do with each of them having a great hulking Direwolf at her side! 

And this logic is exactly why people like me take a stand.

She didnt have to say that Joffrey was completely innocent and that Arya hurt him with sticks or whatever. She just said that she didn´t remember, which is a lie that helps him. It benefits him compared to the truth. Sansa was showing Joffrey a gesture of lojalty by "not remembering", at the cost of loyalty towards her current family, yet are too cowardly to back Joffrey with a more clear statement. She does however clearly supports Joffrey here and I don´t think she should get credit for not siding with her family over her possible future family as well as throwing the truth out the window. 

For me, this entire trident incident is about character and honour (The "Cersei incident" is not so important - it just shows that Sansa didn´t learn anything from it and repeats the same mistake again, something that should surprise no one). And Sansa fail at that. And this is .life - sometimes you are stuck in a hard spot and need to take a stand. And I don´t think Sansa should be spared of that regardless of her age. It was a volatile situation.  Ned was right to force Sansa to take the stand - a witness today is usually forced to give a direct testimony, regardless of the dangers doing so. Now, there are certainly other people to blame as well, but that doesn´t mean Sansas choices should be washed over.  I don´t have to criticize say Robert and his moral cowardice in order to talk about Sansa. There are other treads for that. Reminds me of the logic that, say a feminist can´t talk about a single issue without having to criticize everything else at the same time. I hate that logic. 

And its not only about the incident itself, but what follows after. You say she didn´t drop Arya in it? Well, this is her reflection later: 

"Arya screwed up her face in a scowl. "Jaime Lannister murdered Jory and Heward and Wyl, and the Hound murdered Mycah. Somebody should have beheaded them."

"It's not the same," Sansa said. "The Hound is Joffrey's sworn shield. Your butcher's boy attacked the prince."

"Liar," Arya said. Her hand clenched the blood orange so hard that red juice oozed between her fingers.

"Go ahead, call me all the names you want," Sansa said airily. "You won't dare when I'm married to Joffrey. You'll have to bow to me and call me Your Grace." 

What we see here is that Sansa internally blames Arya for it. This is very much an argument that the non-commitment reasoning are bullshit. But at least you have the honesty to admit that she didn´t tell the truth instead of the "she took no side" BS I have seen thrown around alot on this forum. If I see you murder someone but "forgets it", I am doing you a solid, not being neutral - I doubt few would deny this. And this is the same. 

But if you want to delude yourself this is all hatred against young women, please feel free to do so. Its not that I am am a fan of Daenerys, Catelyn and Arianne or so (oh right, I am!). And quite honestly, if you want to encourage dishonesty and lying in order to fit in and avoid lasting consequences, well that certainly would make a interesting sociological observation about the people supporting Sansa and their mentality and morality. Maybe the desire to defend her against anything is the real problem here and that those are the real unbalanced thoughts?

[Protagoras]

5 hours ago, Darkstream said:

WTF? So you believe that some random woman, minding her own business, living her life within a culture of passive and peaceful people, deserved to have her village attacked, plundered, and burnt to the ground, all her family and friends murdered, herself raped several times, followed by being enslaved, and finally being burned alive, just so Drogo's army could be resupplied, and finance an invasion of a foreign nation? 

And Danny's flaw in this is trusting Murri, whom by the way, was not responsible for Drogo not following her instructions in regards to treating his injury, nor for Jorah entering the tent with Danny during the ritual?

Wow, talk about sugar coating in defense of ones favorite character.

Mirri made a deal with Daenerys and she broke said deal. Daenerys should get revenge for the lies and the false promises Mirri gave to her personally, regardless of what the Dotraki did to her. Therefore she should suffer consequences and considering the amout of deaths, being burned alive is not an unfair punishment.

Mirri's speech to Dany towards the end of the book proves otherwise. She hated them from the start. Her intentions was never to help (not that I blame her, but she did lie to Daenetys about it). She could have tried to deny it - she didn´t. Mirri absolutely does not pay the part of the physician explaining patiently to the grieving mother and wife why her child is dead and her husband a shell of a man.  She does not offer any sympathy or condolences - far from it, she gloats in the death of her son, of her husband's state and taunts her by claiming she will never have another child.

But this thread is about Sansa, not Daenerys. And I don´t think this is sugar-coating in the same way OP did for Sansa. I am aware burning is a brutal way to die. I am aware torturing the winesellers daughter is something you will have to live with for the rest of your life. I am not blaming the Shavepate for the decision Daenerys took. 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Hmm, I've often noted how very black and white your view points are. 

The thing is Sansa is in a very difficult position at the Trident. She has to chose between loyalty to her sister, whose behaviour in the incident she disagrees with but who is at the end of the day her sister, and her own future. 

The incident got way out of hand really fast. and non of the adults with the power stepped in and helped. Sansa was left with the unenviable choice of starting married life by pissing her husband and his family off big style. And this isn't a world where she can abandon her marriage and go back to her parents when he treats her badly. She is essentially becoming Joffrey's property when her father makes this betrothal. A fact he makes painfully clear later on.  So does she begin her marriage with what will be seen by her future husband and his family as disloyalty? Does she expose her fiance's failings by admitting what a frightened little dick he behaved like? She isn't going to have  a very happy marriage if she does this. Imagine being 11 and leaving your home, to be given away as property to a disagreeable prick like Joffrey. He showed his true colours to her momentarily at the Trident and she has to convince herself that it's all going to be OK, because her Daddy hasn't stepped in and made it all better. She is going to be this boy's wife. And the sweetener is she is going to be Queen. Don't look at that prospect from the view point which is usually presented by her detractors for one minute, view it from the viewpoint of fairy tales. Because this is Sansa's perspective. She is being offered her fairy tale.  She only rubs Arya's face in the power aspect of that position later on. And there is a reason why, she is reiterating her superior place in their relationship, she is the eldest, she is going to be Queen. That is about them and their squabbling, totally normal sisterly relationship. 

Now what does she do? does she back up Arya, whose behaviour did indeed cause the incident, she should never have been sword fighting with a Butchers boy. Joffrey behaved like the vile cretin he is, but even if he had responded to their game with a less unreasonable approach he still would be well within his rights socially to demand they stop and Arya should have done so. She knows full well the social etiquette her society lives by. She antagonises the situation and Sansa has every right to feel pissed off about that. Arya is breaking the rules, but as a reader with a modern perspective we forgive her, because we disagree with the rigid social structure presented. So does Sansa disregard these facts and back up Arya simply because she is her sister? You seem to think that yes, she should of course because she owes her loyalty to her birth family. But Sansa is in a tougher position than that isn't she.  She does the best she can which is to try her best to stay out of it, and when forced to the stand she denies any memory of events. To do anything else would have been foolish. 

Ned knew the truth, she'd already told him. Yet he says fuck all. He may for all we know even have advised his daughter to keep mum. It is a delicate matter, Sansa must keep faith with her future family. But no one wants Arya to suffer for her stupidity in breaking the social contract. Everyone knows Joff is a little prick who went OTT. But he's going to be King one day and Cersei isn't prepared to accept her sons personality faults. Robert can't be arsed to rule or to parent and so it plays out as it does. 

 

I've been about these forums and other areas of the fandom for a few years now, and read thousands and thousands of posts, and I assure you that yes her being a young woman absolutely does come into it! Just like the hatred for Catelyn is influenced in large by her being a woman, and the dislike of Danaerys also stems massively from her too being a young woman. Arrianne suffers from it too, people's perception of her as a character absolutely is influenced by their attitudes towards young women. You're personal like for these characters in no way takes away from the fact that social attitudes and perceptions towards women and girls is a huge factor in the dislike that the female characters receive in the fandom. The more threads you read the more certain trends stand out. 

[LiveFirstDieLater]

Wait, I know everyone would love to believe that the Sansa hate is because she's a woman... But it's not... It's because she's a bad person.

Its because she had every advantage and still ended up a selfish person who would choose personal gain over family... One of the lowest things I can say of anyone.

Renly for instance is a good parallel... Betraying his brother so he could sit a throne. There are more important things in life than thrones... 

You can make all the excuses you want, and talk about how it's not her/his fault... But saying she's just a classic spoiled girl seems more sexist than anything, hold her to the same standard as everyone else.

 At some point one is responsible for ones actions, and Sansa has yet to make a selfless choice in books so far as I'm aware.

[Lost Melnibonean]

5 hours ago, Darkstream said:

Excellent  post.

Actually the time line would support that Cersei's plans were already in effect before Ned warned her. Robert was already a dead man before Sansa or Ned's blunders.

Sansa's actions certainly were not the cause of the events that took place.

Petyr sprung the trap, but Sansa put herself in the snare, and by doing so, Sansa gave House Lannister the leverage they needed over Eddard. 

Petyr saw that with Catelyn's capture of Tyrion and Tywin preparing for war it was time to spring his trap. When Robert renamed The Ned as Hand Petyr decided to remove Ned's principal backer from the board so he advised Cersei of a monstrous boar...

Quote

 

"Is there word of the king?" Ned demanded. "Just how long does Robert intend to hunt?"

"Given his preferences, I believe he'd stay in the forest until you and the queen both die of old age," Lord Petyr replied with a faint smile. "Lacking that, I imagine he'll return as soon as he's killed something. They found the white hart, it seems . . . or rather, what remained of it. Some wolves found it first, and left His Grace scarcely more than a hoof and a horn. Robert was in a fury, until he heard talk of some monstrous boar deeper in the forest. Then nothing would do but he must have it. Prince Joffrey returned this morning, with the Royces, Ser Balon Swann, and some twenty others of the party. The rest are still with the king."

 

Eddard XII, Game 45

I am not a hater. I dont believe that The George is setting Sansa up to be player or a typical heroine, but I do believe her character is tragic and sympathetic. I found the plights of Arya and Sansa to be the most riveting aspects of the first act of ASOIAF the first time I read the novels. Even though Sansa's actions on the morning of Robert's death had dire consequences for House Stark, I dont think we should be throwing an eleven-year-old under the ox cart. With that said, one of the consequences may have been that the Queen had the King's life terminated a bit prematurely . . .

There is no doubt that King Robert was as good as dead when he returned from his hunt . . .
 

Quote

So Robert had returned from his hunt. . . .

The room smelled of smoke and blood and death. . . .

They had done what they could to close him up, but it was nowhere near enough. The boar must have been a fearsome thing. It had ripped the king from groin to with its tusks. The wine-soaked bandages that Grand Maester Pycelle had applied were already black with blood, and the smell off the wound was hideous. . . .

Heavy chains jangled softly as Grand Maester Pycelle came up to Ned. "I will do all in my power, my lord, but the wound has mortified. It took them two days to get him back. By the time I saw him, it was too late. I can lessen His Grace's suffering, but only the gods can heal him now."

"How long?" Ned asked.

"By rights, he should be dead already. I have never seen a man cling to life so fiercely."

"My brother was always strong," Lord Renly said. "Not wise, perhaps, but strong." In the sweltering heat of the bedchamber, his brow was slick with sweat. He might have been Robert's ghost as he stood there, young and dark and handsome. "He slew the boar. His entrails were sliding from his belly, yet somehow he slew the boar." His voice was full of wonder. . . .

Eddard XIII, Game 47

So, it would be foolish to suggest that Sansa's actions caused the King to die. But we have this the scene the following morning . . .
 

Quote

The grey light of dawn was streaming through his window when the thunder of hoofbeats awoke Eddard Stark from his brief, exhausted sleep. He lifted his head from the table to look down into the yard. Below, men in mail and leather and crimson cloaks were making the morning ring to the sound of swords, and riding down mock warriors stuffed with straw. Ned watched Sandor Clegane gallop across the hard-packed ground to drive an iron-tipped lance through a dummy's head. Canvas ripped and straw exploded as Lannister guardsmen joked and cursed.

Is this brave show for my benefit? he wondered. If so, Cersei was a greater fool than he'd imagined. Damn her, he thought, why is the woman not fled? I have given her chance after chance . . .

Eddard XIV, Game 49

Here the author suggests that Cersei was demonstrating her strength. But, presumably, the King was still alive, and Sansa was having breakfast with her father and her sister . . .
 

Quote

The morning was overcast and grim. Ned broke his fast with his daughters and Septa Mordane. Sansa, still disconsolate, stared sullenly at her food and refused to eat, but Arya wolfed down everything that was set in front of her. "Syrio says we have time for one last lesson before we take ship this evening," she said. "Can I, Father? All my things are packed."

"A short lesson, and make certain you leave yourself time to bathe and change. I want you ready to leave by midday, is that understood?"

"By midday," Arya said.

Eddard XIV, Game 49

So, Sansa knew that she and Arya were expected to be ready to depart the Red Keep by noon that day, and that the Wind Witch would sail later that evening. She was not happy about having to leave Joffrey . . .
 

Quote

Sansa looked up from her food. "If she can have a dancing lesson, why won't you let me say farewell to Prince Joffrey?"

"I would gladly go with her, Lord Eddard," Septa Mordane offered. "There would be no question of her missing the ship."

"It would not be wise for you to go to Joffrey right now, Sansa. I'm sorry."

Sansa's eyes filled with tears. "But why?"

"Sansa, your lord father knows best," Septa Mordane said. "You are not to question his decisions."

"It's not fair!" Sansa pushed back from her table, knocked over her chair, and ran weeping from the solar.

Septa Mordane rose, but Ned gestured her back to her seat. "Let her go, Septa. I will try to make her understand when we are all safely back in Winterfell." The septa bowed her head and sat down to finish her breakfast.

Eddard XIV, Game 49

Its too bad for House Stark that Eddard did not allow Mordane to follow the young, despairing Sansa, because, just one hour later . . .
 

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It was an hour later when Grand Maester Pycelle came to Eddard Stark in his solar. His shoulders slumped, as if the weight of the great maester's chain around his neck had become too great to bear. "My lord," he said, "King Robert is gone. The gods give him rest."

Eddard XIV, Game 49

Notice that the author tells us that Robert passes immediately after the scene where Sansa runs off. The information is presented by Cersei's creature Pycelle, one hour after Sansa goes to the Queen and tells her of Eddard's plans . . .
 

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"Please, I need to speak to the queen again," Sansa told them, as she told everyone she saw that day.

Sansa IV, Game 51

That word "again" was the first signal to the reader that Sansa had done what she did . . .
 

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"Why else should you have come to me and told me of your father's plan to send you away from us, if not for love?"

"It was for love," Sansa said in a rush. "Father wouldn't even give me leave to say farewell." She was the good girl, the obedient girl, but she had felt as wicked as Arya that morning, sneaking away from Septa Mordane, defying her lord father. She had never done anything so willful before, and she would never have done it then if she hadn't loved Joffrey as much as she did. "He was going to take me back to Winterfell and marry me to some hedge knight, even though it was Joff I wanted. I told him, but he wouldn't listen." The king had been her last hope. The king could command Father to let her stay in King's Landing and marry Prince Joffrey, Sansa knew he could, but the king had always frightened her. He was loud and rough-voiced and drunk as often as not, and he would probably have just sent her back to Lord Eddard, if they even let her see him. So she went to the queen instead, and poured out her heart, and Cersei had listened and thanked her sweetly . . . only then Ser Arys had escorted her to the high room in Maegor's Holdfast and posted guards, and a few hours later, the fighting had begun outside. "Please," she finished, "you have to let me marry Joffrey, I'll be ever so good a wife to him, you'll see. I'll be a queen just like you, I promise."

Sansa IV, Game 51

So, now we know that Sansa, defied her father, went to the Queen, rather than to the King, whom she hoped would command Eddard to allow her to remain in King's Landing with her true love, Prince Joffrey. Cersei had Arys take her into custody, and within the hour, Pycelle advised Eddard that the King was dead. We also know that Cersei benefitted from the information she gained from Sansa that morning . . .
 

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"Littlefinger made the arrangements. We needed Slynt's gold cloaks. Eddard Stark was plotting with Renly and he'd written to Lord Stannis, offering him the throne. We might have lost all. Even so, it was a close thing. If Sansa hadn't come to me and told me all her father's plans . . . "

Tyrion I, Clash 3

We can surmise that Petyr promised the gold cloaks to Cersei sometime after Eddard told Cersei that he would advise the King of her treason upon his return from the hunt. We can also surmise that Cersei suspected Eddard of plotting with Renly since Boros and Preston observed them talking on the drawbridge right after Robert returned from the hunt. But she could not have known about Eddard's letter to Stannis until after Fat Tom was killed during the purge. And we know this as well . . .
 

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. . . No single person is to blame for Ned's downfall. Sansa played a role, certainly, but it would be unfair to put all the blame on her. But it would also be unfair to exonerate her. She was not privy to all of Ned's plans regarding Stannis, the gold cloaks, etc. . . but she knew more than just that her father planned to spirit her and Arya away from King's Landing. She knew when they were to leave, on what ship, how many men would be in their escort, who would have the command, where Arya was that morning, etc. . . all of which was useful to Cersei in planning and timing her move.

SSM, April 10, 1999, Regarding Sansa

Once Sansa told Cersei that Eddard's daughters were to leave King's Landing in a few hours, Cersei could no longer wait for the King to die. With her Lannister men and Petyr's gold cloaks she had the muscle she needed to move against the Hand. But she could not make such a move before Robert died. On the other hand, she could not risk losing Sansa and Arya as potential hostages. Sansa proved to be the leverage she needed to force Eddard to bend the knee, and knowing that Sansa could be executed likely kept Robb from executing Jaime.

Shortly after Pycelle advised Eddard of the King's death, Cersei summoned the Hand and the small council to the throne room, and Eddard noticed that the Lannister men were not practicing in the yard anymore. Whether Robert's death was hastened as a result of Sansa's action that morning is not provable, based on what we know. Nor can I find any hints that this is the case. But it is possible 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

At no point have I said that she is "just a classic spoilt girl" 

She is a very normal 11 year old girl when we meet her. She develops throughout the books and we see a very changed young woman in the later books. 

You are very wrong, and I assure you that my experience in reading as I said Thousands of posts in various areas of the fandom absolutely refute the notion her sex has nothing to do with the dislike so many have for her as a character.  I think a really good point is made by your own post. When was the last time you saw a thread dedicated to what a prick Renly was for wanting the throne?  I'll tell you when precisely never. 

She didn't betray her family for personal gain, she chose to testify that she couldn't recall inorder to save herself from a life time of potential misery. That is in no way at all akin to forming an army and seeking to seize the thrown as supreme monarch of the nation which your brother is in fact the true heir to. 

Renly did far and away worse than Sansa yet he barely gets a sniff of dislike, in fact he's really rather popular. 

Sansa is yet to make a selfless choice? How I laughed when I read this.  Errrrr Dontos? Lancel?  talk about blinkered reading. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

5 hours ago, Darkstream said:

Betrayal? That would require intent. Sansa in no way betrayed her father.

This is a complete misrepresentation of the facts. Sansa had nothing to do with getting her father killed.

Consider the world of ASOIAF, and the near absolute obedience a girl owes to her father. Sneaking off to the queen to divulge her father's secret plans to return the girls to Winterfell, was a betrayal. 

[The Dew]

21 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Wait, I know everyone would love to believe that the Sansa hate is because she's a woman... But it's not... It's because she's a bad person.

Its because she had every advantage and still ended up a selfish person who would choose personal gain over family... One of the lowest things I can say of anyone.

Renly for instance is a good parallel... Betraying his brother so he could sit a throne. There are more important things in life than thrones... 

You can make all the excuses you want, and talk about how it's not her/his fault... But at some point one is responsible for ones actions, and Sansa has yet to make a selfless choice in books so far as I'm aware.

hear, hear

[Lost Melnibonean]

3 hours ago, siyxx said:

I think it might be a bit exaggerating to say she's the one who got her father killed. I mean, let's be real about this; her father was actually the one who got her father killed (or maybe Joffrey since he's the one who came up with the execution thing). But Ned pretty much brought it to himself by honorably confronting Cersei about her secret and all that cringeworthy schemes. By going to Cersei, Sansa just made it easier for Cersei to initiate the scheme to capture Ned and the girls. Sansa just made herself a target, unable to flee the city (and she's the one who suffered from this the most).   

If anything, Sansa unwittingly causing herself to be captured gave Eddard a chance for life. He never would have agreed to bend the knee if Cersei hadn't threatened to execute Sansa. Joffrey, Petyr, Janos, and Ilyn are to blame for Eddard’s death. 

[Lurid Jester]

12 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Ooh! Ooh! OOH!! How about... wait for it... some Lemonheads! 

Now that's what I'm talkin'bout.  Those are probably sansa's favorites.

[David Selig]

This board's obsession on judging characters by how many mistakes they have made is quite bizarre.

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Its because she had every advantage and still ended up a selfish person who would choose personal gain over family... One of the lowest things I can say of anyone.

So the custom of parents basically selling their children for gain in marriage is a good thing in your book? Give me a break.

[Lost Melnibonean]

1 hour ago, Protagoras said:

And this logic is exactly why people like me take a stand.

She didnt have to say that Joffrey was completely innocent and that Arya hurt him with sticks or whatever. She just said that she didn´t remember, which is a lie that helps him. It benefits him compared to the truth. Sansa was showing Joffrey a gesture of lojalty by "not remembering", at the cost of loyalty towards her current family, yet are too cowardly to back Joffrey with a more clear statement. She does however clearly supports Joffrey here and I don´t think she should get credit for not siding with her family over her possible future family as well as throwing the truth out the window. 

For me, this entire trident incident is about character and honour (The "Cersei incident" is not so important - it just shows that Sansa didn´t learn anything from it and repeats the same mistake again, something that should surprise no one). And Sansa fail at that. And this is .life - sometimes you are stuck in a hard spot and need to take a stand. And I don´t think Sansa should be spared of that regardless of her age. It was a volatile situation.  Ned was right to force Sansa to take the stand - a witness today is usually forced to give a direct testimony, regardless of the dangers doing so. Now, there are certainly other people to blame as well, but that doesn´t mean Sansas choices should be washed over.  I don´t have to criticize say Robert and his moral cowardice in order to talk about Sansa. There are other treads for that. Reminds me of the logic that, say a feminist can´t talk about a single issue without having to criticize everything else at the same time. I hate that logic. 

And its not only about the incident itself, but what follows after. You say she didn´t drop Arya in it? Well, this is her reflection later: 

"Arya screwed up her face in a scowl. "Jaime Lannister murdered Jory and Heward and Wyl, and the Hound murdered Mycah. Somebody should have beheaded them."

"It's not the same," Sansa said. "The Hound is Joffrey's sworn shield. Your butcher's boy attacked the prince."

"Liar," Arya said. Her hand clenched the blood orange so hard that red juice oozed between her fingers.

"Go ahead, call me all the names you want," Sansa said airily. "You won't dare when I'm married to Joffrey. You'll have to bow to me and call me Your Grace." 

What we see here is that Sansa internally blames Arya for it. This is very much an argument that the non-commitment reasoning are bullshit. But at least you have the honesty to admit that she didn´t tell the truth instead of the "she took no side" BS I have seen thrown around alot on this forum. If I see you murder someone but "forgets it", I am doing you a solid, not being neutral - I doubt few would deny this. And this is the same. 

But if you want to delude yourself this is all hatred against young women, please feel free to do so. Its not that I am am a fan of Daenerys, Catelyn and Arianne or so (oh right, I am!). And quite honestly, if you want to encourage dishonesty and lying in order to fit in and avoid lasting consequences, well that certainly would make a interesting sociological observation about the people supporting Sansa and their mentality and morality. Maybe the desire to defend her against anything is the real problem here and that those are the real unbalanced thoughts?

That's a tough one. Sansa lied about remembering--there's no realistic way around it. But she was just a child. ...

[ShadowCat Rivers]

7 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

That's a tough one. Sansa lied about remembering--there's no realistic way around it. But she was just a child. What was truly beautiful was the way Eddard later explained and justified Sansa's betrayal to Arya. 

Well, he didn't - in the books. He chose to deflect from it when discussing with Arya, by talking about other lies.

This is a case where book canon is often conflated with the show.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

14 minutes ago, David Selig said:

This board's obsession on judging characters by how many mistakes they have made is quite bizarre.

So the custom of parents basically selling their children for gain in marriage is a good thing in your book? Give me a break.

It's tinfoil and judgement with an occasional joke... What were you expecting?

WTF are you talking about.... Try reading what I wrote, selling out family for personal gain is bad... How did you manage to twist that one around into arranged marriages are good? Incredible

[David Selig]

3 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

It's tinfoil and judgement with an occasional joke... What were you expecting?

WTF are you talking about.... Try reading what I wrote, selling out family for personal gain is bad... How did you manage to twist that one around into arranged marriages are good? Incredible

All Sansa did was try to foil her father's plans of breaking her engagement to the boy she thought she loved in order to presumably get a better deal in the future. You called that "selling out her family".

[LiveFirstDieLater]

7 minutes ago, David Selig said:

All Sansa did was try to foil her father's plans of breaking her engagement to the boy she thought she loved in order to presumably get a better deal in the future. You called that "selling out her family".

oh that's all? And yes absolutely textbook selling out the family... And betrayal, also, if we are being honest, it sure seems to me that Sansa is in love with the idea of being queen, not Jeof... Selfish, petty, and untrustworthy... With no real development at all so far... Just trying to learn to lie and backstab better

still not sure how you got from there to my supporting arranged marriages? Seems like the exact opposite right?

[YOVMO]

17 hours ago, Emie said:

, Sansa was still only a child and very naive about the world and what to do in very grown up situations

I think that this is key right here. I have mentioned my theory on Sansa in other posts, so I won't go too long about it again. In many ways I believe that Sansa's character is an echo or mirror image of the reader.

Before AGOT first came to us, whether a long time ago or relatively recently, we were (for the most part I assume) already fans of the genre. And what did we love. We loved LOTR and Star Wars and all the books and series and epics that created it...along with its tropes -- tropes which GRRM has flown in the face of.

Similarly, Sansa believes the stories and the songs, Jonquiel, Florian the Fool, The Mirror Knight. She dreams that her life will be a fairytale. Littlefinger warns sansa "“Life is not a song, sweetling. Someday you may learn that, to your sorrow.” Sansa fights against this. Even as she starts to see the rough edges of the world. Even after Lady is put to death. Even after she sees her gallant prince is a coward. Even before when she is confronted by her sister who doesn't live up to her station as young highborn lady. Even looking at the terrible face of the hound or how the noble king is fat and drunk and lusty. Even that her honorable father has a bastard. Even when she sees the Mountain's Lance go through the neck of Ser Hugh of the Vale. And even as her father's men are killed, Eddard imprisoned, Jeyne taken away. Even then she still holds some hope. Then Ned is beheaded by Ser Ilyn with his own sword and she sees it. The songs were all lies. The tropes that guided her and created her insulated world come crashing down and she is thrown into a new world where the terrain seems familiar but much more hostile, different and strange.

Are we, the readers, any different. Hard to put the toothpaste back in the tube, but try to remember when first seeing it. It all seemed to normal. The lordly lord solemnly doing his duty and beheading traitors, teaching his children nobility, being kind to his wife, being reflective at having to take life, being excited to see his old friend King Robert, preparing for a feast. Yes, we know this one. But one of the queens brothers is a misshapen dwarf. And the queen is fucking her twin. And the prince is a total douche-turd. And maybe that guy who was running from the NW actually had some reason. And, wait, now bran is a cripple. Holy shit. But like Sansa we move on and move on. I really think that even though we are confronted with these strange things that simply don't fit the world we know, we are all right there in our little fantasy land just like Sansa right up until Joffrey demands Ned's head and for Sansa, as for the reader, now it is f'n real. We now have a new world to navigate. We need to go back to the prologue and reconsider every freaking thing. What the heck was going on with that first ranging? Who is Jon's mother? Who is his father? Shit, nothing is right here.

It is because Sansa is a mirror of the reader that I believe that she will survive all the books. Sansa is growing, becoming more savvy, learning to mistrust, learning to question motives, question everything really. Are we so different from Sansa? Here we are arguing about if Arthur Dayne is alive and what the heck is going on with the faceless men and if fAegon is really a blackfire when all we had in mind when we started was a story about a lordly lord who is duitiful and kind and excited to see his king. 

 

Anyway, just my 2 groats.