Sansa is truly one of the best characters and her development is fascinating

[Philokles]

The reason many readers prefer Arya to Sansa initially, is not that Arya fits a tomboy stereotype and Sansa a 'girly' one, but that Arya has the mental fortitude to stand up for what she believes is right despite the consequences. Often those trying to whitewash her actions in AGOT come up with alternative motivations for her lying at the trident - either it was a calculated political move to remain friendly to the Lannisters or, even more ludicrously, was done to help Arya - but these are all excuses for the obvious reality that she just doing what she thought Joffrey wanted. If not for Robert's desire to reduce the Stark-Lannister tension her deceit could have cost Arya her life or led to mutilation.

To be honest, whitewashing bullying as something that happens between kids is an awful attitude to take. So to is the attempt to spin the events to blame Arya just for having a mock-fight with sticks in an isolated location. By the way, the important chapter is told from Ned's POV, and it is completely clear that he wants Sansa to tell the truth not keep her out of the conflict. He was even the one who summoned her in the first place to give testimony.

Thankfully Sansa has developed significantly for the better since AGOT and would likely get on well with Arya if and when they meet again.

[Lost Melnibonean]

23 minutes ago, ShadowCat Rivers said:

Well, he didn't - in the books. He chose to deflect from it when discussing with Arya, by talking about other lies.

This is a case where book canon is often conflated with the show.

ARGH!! You're right! I just checked the passage. God Damn It! I try not to do that at all. I even gave up watching the show last season. 

Well, my point about Eddard was wrong, but my point about Sansa is that she was thrust into a very tough spot for prepubescent child. Too bad Sean Bean wasn't around later.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

2 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

ARGH!! You're right! I just checked the passage. God Damn It! I try not to do that at all. I even gave up watching the show last season. 

Well, my point about Eddard was wrong, but my point about Sansa is that she was thrust into a very tough spot for prepubescent child. Too bad Sean Bean wasn't around later.

I agree, Sansa's age and (lack of) exposure should be a point of consideration when examining her actions.

And Eddard, he too made a few parental mistakes regarding Sansa, but there are extenuating factors that should be considered for him as well.

[Chebyshov]

It's almost like being thrust into an intense political situation at 11 years old where your father actively withholds information after a sheltered upbringing where you've been sexually groomed your whole life and believe your only value is in your ability to give some dude babies doesn't lend itself to making the absolutely best choices at all times.

Also she saved her family's political alliance with her lie during King's Road-gate. Her miscommunication issues with Ned and they way both accidentally did wrong by the other, while also trying to fight and sacrifice to save each other is kinda the point.

And like, this was the starting point for your journey, you know? She learns and grows from it, and the choices she made and her guilt over them still colors her actions. Her development is utterly fascinating, but it's sad that people get so nettled with their knee-jerk reaction to her. IMO a straight reread of her chapters is illuminating.

Then again, the YAHS QUEEN on the other side of things is a bit...out of place. Sansa is not a second wave feminist. She's a product of this patriarchy, and the way she both internalizes those messages while also subtly challenging them is where the intrigue lies, in my opinion.

[Winter's Cold]

Sansa will do what's best for Sansa. She's not a heroic character like Dany, Jon or Arya. That's why she chose to not side with her sister at the Trident. That's why she went to the Lannister Queen even after she murdered Lady, and her brother murdered Jory and injured Ned. It's also why she never asked anyone what happened to Jeyne Poole her supposed best friend. It's why she can sit back and watch her cousin Sweetrobin slowly poisoned by Littlefinger. 

Selfish characters are quite interesting compared to regular selfless heroes and heroines. They're also more realistic. Most people are not heroes after all. That's what leads readers to empathize with characters like Sansa and Theon. 

[LiveFirstDieLater]

14 minutes ago, Chebyshov said:

It's almost like being thrust into an intense political situation at 11 years old where your father actively withholds information after a sheltered upbringing where you've been sexually groomed your whole life and believe your only value is in your ability to give some dude babies doesn't lend itself to making the absolutely best choices at all times.

Also she saved her family's political alliance with her lie during King's Road-gate. Her miscommunication issues with Ned and they way both accidentally did wrong by the other, while also trying to fight and sacrifice to save each other is kinda the point.

And like, this was the starting point for your journey, you know? She learns and grows from it, and the choices she made and her guilt over them still colors her actions. Her development is utterly fascinating, but it's sad that people get so nettled with their knee-jerk reaction to her. IMO a straight reread of her chapters is illuminating.

Then again, the YAHS QUEEN on the other side of things is a bit...out of place. Sansa is not a second wave feminist. She's a product of this patriarchy, and the way she both internalizes those messages while also subtly challenging them is where the intrigue lies, in my opinion.

Wait a sec, kids fighting on the bank of a river isn't high political intrigue... Every group of kids eventually ends up in front of the parents after somebody did something wrong... Whether you tell the truth and/or stand up for friends/family says a lot about you... She was pitiful.

Clearly Ned told her too much, she couldn't be trusted...

But I still don't understand, what development? Has she really grown at all? To me she still seems to be the same selfish deplorable character she's always been... Maybe slightly less childish, and maybe better at lying and plotting... But the same morally bankrupt brat at heart...

Is there something I've overlooked, what is this growth people keep talking about? How has she improved morally since GoT?

[sweetsunray]

10 hours ago, erra said:

When Ned warned Cersei, that's when she gave Lancel the stronger wine for Robert, encouraging him to keep the king good and drunk.

Wrong: Ned warns Cersei at dusk 3 days away from the planned leaving by boat he set-up. He never sped up the plans to leave. So, Ned told Cersei 2.5 days before the noon they were to leave the keep for the ship. The night before the planned leaving, Robert was carried in the Red Keep, hours away from being dead. In other words, Robert returned to the Red Keep, 2 days after Ned warned Cersei at dusk (sunset). Per Renly it took them 2 days to get Robert back to the Red Keep after he was gored by the boar, already heavily drunk on his feet. Best hunting time would be dawn or dusk, when wildlife comes out to find food. That would mean that at the latest, Robert was being gored by the boar, at the same time that Ned sproke to Cersei. Ned going to Cersei did not directly influence her murder plans. Varys LIED! (surprise, surprise). She knew though he was digging for bastards for months and that inevitably he would discover and figure out the secret, and that Ned was not Jon Arryn when it came to advizing caution against the Lannisters. The sooner Robert was dead, the better for her. And surely, Cersei did receive a messenger (raven or on fast horse) the night right after Ned confronted her, to inform her of Robert's deadly hunting accident. Cersei did not flee, because she knew it would be too late, and had two days to prepare to bribe the Gold CLoaks, etc. She only was worried somewhat when Robert ordered Cersei to leave so he could speak with Ned in private.

[Winter's Cold]

1 minute ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Wait a sec, kids fighting on the bank of a river isn't high political intrigue... Every group of kids eventually ends up in front of the parents after somebody did something wrong... Whether you tell the truth and/or stand up for friends/family says a lot about you... She was pitiful.

Clearly Ned told her too much, she couldn't be trusted...

But I still don't understand, what development? Has she really grown at all? To me she still seems to be the same selfish deplorable character she's always been... Maybe slightly less childish, and maybe better at lying and plotting... But the same morally bankrupt brat at heart...

Is there something I've overlooked, what is this growth people keep talking about? How has she improved morally since GoT?

Well she has her moments.

The ones commonly cited are:

1. Suggesting that Joffrey not kill Ser Dontos (of course she immediately backpedaled after Joffrey responded negatively and she stated that Joffrey should kill Ser Dontos another day just not on his Name Day)

2. She helped calm down the women in the Maiden's Vault during the Blackwater battle after Cersei (this shows that she has charm but i'm not sure what that has to do with moral rectitude)

3. She complimented Lancel once after his injury (it's unclear if this is genuine or not since we don't have Sansa's POV during this scene only Tyrion's, however regardless of the reasons, it was still a nice thing to do)

These of course are nothing in comparison to the accomplishments of genuine hero characters like Jon, Arya, Dany, Sam and Brienne but it still shows signs that Sansa may be changing from the self absorbed selfish child that she was in Book 1.

 

[LiveFirstDieLater]

9 minutes ago, Winter's Cold said:

Well she has her moments.

The ones commonly cited are:

1. Suggesting that Joffrey not kill Ser Dontos (of course she immediately backpedaled after Joffrey responded negatively and she stated that Joffrey should kill Ser Dontos another day just not on his Name Day)

2. She helped calm down the women in the Maiden's Vault during the Blackwater battle after Cersei (this shows that she has charm but i'm not sure what that has to do with moral rectitude)

3. She complimented Lancel once after his injury (it's unclear if this is genuine or not since we don't have Sansa's POV during this scene only Tyrion's, however regardless of the reasons, it was still a nice thing to do)

These of course are nothing in comparison to the accomplishments of genuine hero characters like Jon, Arya, Dany, Sam and Brienne but it still shows signs that Sansa may be changing from the self absorbed selfish child that she was in Book 1.

 

Well said, I just see it as quite a stretch to say that any of this is somehow redeeming... I think she's a case of people wanting to like her (also the tv show influence) and hoping she'll become a good guy. Unfortunately, I think she's more of a Cersei 2.0... 

[Little Scribe of Naath]

So I think you guys are being slightly unfair to Sansa here.

During the Blackwater:

Quote

Moon Boy did a cartwheel, and vaulted on top of a table. He grabbed up four wine cups and began to juggle them. Every so often one of them would come down and smash him in the head. A few nervous laughs echoed through the hall. Sansa went to Ser Lancel and knelt beside him. His wound was bleeding afresh where the queen had struck him. "Madness," he gasped. "Gods, the Imp was right, was right . . ."

"Help him," Sansa commanded two of the serving men. One just looked at her and ran, flagon and all. Other servants were leaving the hall as well, but she could not help that. Together, Sansa and the serving man got the wounded knight back on his feet. "Take him to Maester Frenken." Lancel was one of them, yet somehow she still could not bring herself to wish him dead. I am soft and weak and stupid, just as Joffrey says. I should be killing him, not helping him.

She is compassionate towards Lancel and can't bring herself to hate him. Not a selfish action by any means, simply out of kindness.

I'd say she has grown after GOT (Albeit slowly) and has become better at figuring out people now.

[Springwatch]

Sansa threads are the best, without a doubt.

1 hour ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Consider the world of ASOIAF, and the near absolute obedience a girl owes to her father. Sneaking off to the queen to divulge her father's secret plans to return the girls to Winterfell, was a betrayal. 

I agree with the bolded. And Sansa thought of herself as "the good girl", the one who consistently pleased her parents and teacher. All this makes me certain that she was following Ned's instructions when she gave evidence at the Mycah trial. For the first time in her life, she was trying to lie a little, to be clever in what she said, to pick and choose what facts she let out. She is/was a hopeless liar, and anyway, Arya started hitting her before she got very far.

Betrayal is too strong a word - I wouldn't use it about a child in the real world, so I wouldn't use it for Sansa. She did not understand, and it was Ned's responsibility to keep her safe and (in times of danger) supervised.

Sansa says and does some nasty things at King's Landing before the disaster hits and Ned is executed. She deserved a good telling off, but personally I believe she was dealing with some mental trauma caused by the killing of Lady. Certainly when Varamyr lost the eagle, his life completely fell apart. He lost everything. Further, I believe some part of the dead animal's spirit remains in the human partner - so she has a bit of wolf spirit to assimilate. Not easy.

[Protagoras]

1 hour ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

That's a tough one. Sansa lied about remembering--there's no realistic way around it. But she was just a child. ...

Certainly, and I am not saying that she should be executed.

I am saying that she owes Arya an apology and that if I was Arya wouldn´t want any kind of water under the bridge until then. She is my stuips sister and I might miss her, but that doesn´t mean I should trust her or walk together with her until she shows she won´t backstab me again (Yes, I am an Arya fan).

[Protagoras]

And also (again!), just because Sansa has matured and has done good things in recent(er) books doesn´t mean her mistake from the first should be glossed over. 

[Springwatch]

I'm a Arya fan, too. And a Dany fan, and a Sansa fan. And Cat.

We don't have to choose just one. There are too few strong female characters in literature as it is, and too many of them ultimately play second fiddle to the men. They probably will here too, but I hope not.

[The Ned's Little Girl]

22 minutes ago, Winter's Cold said:

Well she has her moments.

The ones commonly cited are:

1. Suggesting that Joffrey not kill Ser Dontos (of course she immediately backpedaled after Joffrey responded negatively and she stated that Joffrey should kill Ser Dontos another day just not on his Name Day)

2. She helped calm down the women in the Maiden's Vault during the Blackwater battle after Cersei (this shows that she has charm but i'm not sure what that has to do with moral rectitude)

3. She complimented Lancel once after his injury (it's unclear if this is genuine or not since we don't have Sansa's POV during this scene only Tyrion's, however regardless of the reasons, it was still a nice thing to do)

1. Not backpedaling. She was maintaining the appearance of being agreeable and subservient to Joffrey, flattering him and buttering him up, as that was the most effective way to get him to do anything.

2. The second-most important duty of a Queen (after bearing heirs) is to maintain the prestige of the royal family and the royal court. It takes way more than charm. It takes heart, guts, smarts and an iron will. And in the middle of a serious attack upon the city, it takes a huge amount of bravery as well. Cersei failed while Sansa showed that she has what it takes.

3. @Little Scribe of Naath answered this one admirably.

 

[LiveFirstDieLater]

11 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

Sansa threads are the best, without a doubt.

Right?

Betrayal is too strong a word - I wouldn't use it about a child in the real world, so I wouldn't use it for Sansa. She did not understand, and it was Ned's responsibility to keep her safe and (in times of danger) supervised.

I mean the poor butcher's boy gets killed... Lady gets killed... It's not like this was a harmless white lie.

Arya is totally justified in feeling betrayed, Sansa could have told the truth and choose not to, you can try to justify it but she betrayed her sister.

20 minutes ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

So I think you guys are being slightly unfair to Sansa here.

During the Blackwater:

She is compassionate towards Lancel and can't bring herself to hate him. Not a selfish action by any means, simply out of kindness.

I'd say she has grown after GOT (Albeit slowly) and has become better at figuring out people now.

What is remarkable to me is that helping a wounded (handsome) knight one time is somehow showing development... 

I can't recall a single sacrifice this girl has ever made

[Wall Flower]

2 minutes ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

1. Not backpedaling. She was maintaining the appearance of being agreeable and subservient to Joffrey, flattering him and buttering him up, as that was the most effective way to get him to do anything.

2. The second-most important duty of a Queen (after bearing heirs) is to maintain the prestige of the royal family and the royal court. It takes way more than charm. It takes heart, guts, smarts and an iron will. And in the middle of a serious attack upon the city, it takes a huge amount of bravery as well. Cersei failed while Sansa showed that she has what it takes.

3. @Little Scribe of Naath answered this one admirably.

 

Re I., Sansa also doesn't give up on saving Ser Dontos. When Joffrey says that he will have the fool killed on the morrow, Sansa takes the opening to persuade Joff into making Dontos his fool rather than killing him. Considering how scared she is of Joffrey, she is really showing some courage on behalf of someone she hardly knows.

16 minutes ago, Protagoras said:

And also (again!), just because Sansa has matured and has done good things in recent(er) books doesn´t mean her mistake from the first should be glossed over. 

We don't have to gloss over her 11 year old mistakes but we shouldn't blow them out of all proportion and equate Sansa with adults committing actual murder, treason and war crimes.

[Springwatch]

4 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

I mean the poor butcher's boy gets killed... Lady gets killed... It's not like this was a harmless white lie.

Arya is totally justified in feeling betrayed, Sansa could have told the truth and choose not to, you can try to justify it but she betrayed her sister.

Sansa says "I don't remember". Later Lady is killed. You say this is cause and effect. Prove it.

Mycah is already dead by the way.

[Wall Flower]

5 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

I mean the poor butcher's boy gets killed... Lady gets killed... It's not like this was a harmless white lie.

Arya is totally justified in feeling betrayed, Sansa could have told the truth and choose not to, you can try to justify it but she betrayed her sister.

What is remarkable to me is that helping a wounded (handsome) knight one time is somehow showing development... 

I can't recall a single sacrifice this girl has ever made

As the quoted passage showed, Sansa showed compassion to a knight who she should have hated as her enemy when Lancel's own cousin and erstwhile lover, Queen Cersei, shows none. At the very least, Sansa's action hardly marks her as Cersei 2.0.

[Protagoras]

3 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Hmm, I've often noted how very black and white your view points are. 

The thing is Sansa is in a very difficult position at the Trident. She has to chose between loyalty to her sister, whose behaviour in the incident she disagrees with but who is at the end of the day her sister, and her own future. 

The incident got way out of hand really fast. and non of the adults with the power stepped in and helped. Sansa was left with the unenviable choice of starting married life by pissing her husband and his family off big style. And this isn't a world where she can abandon her marriage and go back to her parents when he treats her badly. She is essentially becoming Joffrey's property when her father makes this betrothal. A fact he makes painfully clear later on.  So does she begin her marriage with what will be seen by her future husband and his family as disloyalty? Does she expose her fiance's failings by admitting what a frightened little dick he behaved like? She isn't going to have  a very happy marriage if she does this. Imagine being 11 and leaving your home, to be given away as property to a disagreeable prick like Joffrey. He showed his true colours to her momentarily at the Trident and she has to convince herself that it's all going to be OK, because her Daddy hasn't stepped in and made it all better. She is going to be this boy's wife. And the sweetener is she is going to be Queen. Don't look at that prospect from the view point which is usually presented by her detractors for one minute, view it from the viewpoint of fairy tales. Because this is Sansa's perspective. She is being offered her fairy tale.  She only rubs Arya's face in the power aspect of that position later on. And there is a reason why, she is reiterating her superior place in their relationship, she is the eldest, she is going to be Queen. That is about them and their squabbling, totally normal sisterly relationship. 

Now what does she do? does she back up Arya, whose behaviour did indeed cause the incident, she should never have been sword fighting with a Butchers boy. Joffrey behaved like the vile cretin he is, but even if he had responded to their game with a less unreasonable approach he still would be well within his rights socially to demand they stop and Arya should have done so. She knows full well the social etiquette her society lives by. She antagonises the situation and Sansa has every right to feel pissed off about that. Arya is breaking the rules, but as a reader with a modern perspective we forgive her, because we disagree with the rigid social structure presented. So does Sansa disregard these facts and back up Arya simply because she is her sister? You seem to think that yes, she should of course because she owes her loyalty to her birth family. But Sansa is in a tougher position than that isn't she.  She does the best she can which is to try her best to stay out of it, and when forced to the stand she denies any memory of events. To do anything else would have been foolish. 

Ned knew the truth, she'd already told him. Yet he says fuck all. He may for all we know even have advised his daughter to keep mum. It is a delicate matter, Sansa must keep faith with her future family. But no one wants Arya to suffer for her stupidity in breaking the social contract. Everyone knows Joff is a little prick who went OTT. But he's going to be King one day and Cersei isn't prepared to accept her sons personality faults. Robert can't be arsed to rule or to parent and so it plays out as it does. 

 

I've been about these forums and other areas of the fandom for a few years now, and read thousands and thousands of posts, and I assure you that yes her being a young woman absolutely does come into it! Just like the hatred for Catelyn is influenced in large by her being a woman, and the dislike of Danaerys also stems massively from her too being a young woman. Arrianne suffers from it too, people's perception of her as a character absolutely is influenced by their attitudes towards young women. You're personal like for these characters in no way takes away from the fact that social attitudes and perceptions towards women and girls is a huge factor in the dislike that the female characters receive in the fandom. The more threads you read the more certain trends stand out. 

Thank you, its simply pretty easy to see who in a situation acts wrong according to my views and who acts right. The world might be grey from a relativistic PoW but from my personal one it is not. Or rather, not as grey as people think. I define what is good and just after all. 

Edit: If you trust myers-briggs test, I have a strong TJ - something I am proud of. 

And yes, Sansa is certainly in a difficult position but then again - why should I value one girls fairy tale as an inherant value? Why does Sansa need to be protected? Again - if you want to encourage dishonesty and lying in order to fit in and avoid lasting consequences then maybe "Being a young woman" is equal to being an asshole, to not have the mental fortitude to stand up for what is right then maybe being a young woman is a drawback that should be criticized? Certainly, you could critizise the society that forces such a choice on a woman, but then you really can´t criticize anyone. 

You also seem to have a strange view of Aryas sword fighting. What she does is not really Joffreys business. He is not the king yet and what house Stark does is none of his business. In theory they could have had Neds blessing. In fact -  Westeros is a feudal monarchy, not an absolute one, and the last time the heir of the king did something toward the daughter of a lord paramount, he certainly didn´t get away with it. That should be on everyone´s mind.

Because here is the thing - Joffrey is NOT is the right to act as he did. He certainly can be judged - in fact if this was a trial for a reason. Arya have already admitted of attacking the prince (in defense of Mycah), that her wolf bit him and that the sword was thrown in the river. Yet AT THIS POINT Robert say "he say one thing, she say another". If just laying a hand on the prince was treason then she is guilty here and then. But clearly that was not the case.

And Horse of Kent did an excellent post before mine that points out what is the problem here too - the lazy whitewashing and the certain fans that have an agenda that I am not willing to compromize with. I have also been on (lurked) these forums and other areas of the fandom for a few years now too, and read thousands and thousands of posts, and I assure you that this Sansa whitewashing is a real thing. That for years these interpretations of "Sansa did nothing wrong" has popped up, together with the very false statement that you should read the Pawn to Player threads (Threads that were very much a safe space) back in the days where certain ideas where discouraged and seen as violating the atmosphere, yet was somehow used to promote that their interpretation was right (Hint: such a protective forum has zero intellectual value when it comes to promote opinions over others, since only certain thoughts could be shared there in the first place).

And I think you are brushing aside Sansa acting towards Arya as "sibling rivalry". That she was just reiterating her superior place in their relationship. Well, maybe that relationship needs to end then. Something always happens between kids and there is a reason why you are not friends with anyone you once knew when you were little. And then we have the term "Arya Horseface" that clearly was known enough that Theon (who have lived in their family for years) think it is HER invention and it is wide-spead enough that he knows it speak miles here. 

But certainly - if she wants to pick her future above her sister please be my guest. But then I think I prefer to beat the dead horse more times, because this horse isn´t smart enough to know when it should stay dead. And if Sansa hold the same attitude herself? Well in that case I hope that a Arya/Sansa reunion won´t happen. Arya is better off without her.