Why was Jaime kept on as a kingsguard?

[1000th Lord Commander]

I always saw it as a consideration of a few different factors.

First, before Selmy in GoT, there was no consideration for releasing someone from thier KG's oath, you served until you died, or took the black. The thought of releasing Jamie wouldn't have occured to anyone.

Second, by letting Jamie and Selmy continue as KG, it provides a sense on continuity and legitimicy to Robert's reign. Had Robert tried to force Jamie to join the Night's Watch, or just released him from his oath, he may have taken offence and joined Viserys.

Thirdly, is the same reason Aerys liked having him. Jamie is a hostage for his father's behaviour.

Fourth, Robert enjoyed pardoning his enemies and making them friends, this is simply a continuation of that behaviour.

Fifth, by allowing Jamie to continue in such a position, he keeps Tywin appeased. Tywin wouldn't have been happy to see his son forced to join the Night's Watch.

[marsyao]

23 minutes ago, The Wolves said:

You keep making things up. Where are you getting that Robert was suspicious of Tywin? 

 

You just have to read the conversation between King Robert and Lord Stark

[The Wolves]

8 minutes ago, marsyao said:

You just have to read the conversation between King Robert and Lord Stark

What convo? The one where dumbass Robert is justifying giving Tywin's son(who you are saying is a hostage)the position of Warden of the East? Or where he is defending Jaime to Ned calling him loyal and dismissing Ned's real concern on Tywin and Jaime's actions during the war? 

What conversation are you talking about between Robert and Ned? 

[Lord Fauntleroy]

I would imagine Jaime stayed on since Robert didn't give a shit about what the other Lords thought, and he was so pleased with the murder of the Targaryens that he saw no reason to remove Jaime. 

Jaime himself seemed to be completely disillusioned with the whole thing and probably just wanted to be able to fuck his sister so he stayed around. 

Obviously everyone else in the realm wasn't too pleased but only Robert and Jaime had any say in the matter.

[Bael's Bastard]

I think Jaime was intended to be a hostage to Robert as he had been a hostage to Aerys. By keeping Jaime in the Kingsguard, Robert continued Aerys's policies of eliminating Jaime from the Lannister succession, eliminating Jaime's ability to produce any legitimate children, and keeping Jaime near to him as a hostage against Tywin. The Wall or execution might also have succeeded in preventing Jaime from the Lannister succession and legitimate children, but Robert would have been eliminating the option of being able to hold and use Tywin's favorite son against him. 

[marsyao]

44 minutes ago, The Wolves said:

What convo? The one where dumbass Robert is justifying giving Tywin's son(who you are saying is a hostage)the position of Warden of the East? Or where he is defending Jaime to Ned calling him loyal and dismissing Ned's real concern on Tywin and Jaime's actions during the war? 

What conversation are you talking about between Robert and Ned? 

He just named Lord Stark as his hand, Lord Tywin would be furious, as a balance act, he send Jaime as Wadern of East, but Jaime was not from Vale, he was an outsider there, in a fedual system, that means this was just an honor title without real power, he can not send Jaime to wall (for waht crime?) or executed him without resking an war with Tywin wihout a legimitate causes in the eyes of other great Lords

[The Wolves]

30 minutes ago, marsyao said:

He just named Lord Stark as his hand, Lord Tywin would be furious, as a balance act, he send Jaime as Wadern of East, but Jaime was not from Vale, he was an outsider there, in a fedual system, that means this was just an honor title without real power, he can not send Jaime to wall (for waht crime?) or executed him without resking an war with Tywin wihout a legimitate causes in the eyes of other great Lords

Why would Tywin be furious about not getting the Hand position? Robert was not thinking at all about Tywin when he chose Ned for the Hand position. And Jaime is named Warden of the East after Jon Arryn dies 15yrs after the war not to appease Tywin just cause the dude is stupid. 

This still doesn't answer my question on when did Robert ever hint that he didn't trust Tywin? 

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

Two words Jon Arryn .

[LordImp]

8 hours ago, The Wolves said:

For what? 

Ned even says that Aerys had chest full of gold, so why would Robert need Lannister gold? And it would be Tywin who would be jumping at the chance to get into the good graces of the new king not the other way around. 

Then Aerys' gold wasnt enough then. We all know that the crown was in debt to Tywin , you think Jon Arryn borrowed from Tywin just for fun? 

[The Wolves]

1 hour ago, LordImp said:

Then Aerys' gold wasnt enough then. We all know that the crown was in debt to Tywin , you think Jon Arryn borrowed from Tywin just for fun? 

Robert started borrowing from Tywin years into his reign while being married to his daughter, not right when he became king. 

Fact of the matter is is that Robert did not need Tywin, his gold or a marriage alliance. 

[Danelle]

2 hours ago, BRANDON GREYSTARK said:

Two words Jon Arryn .

Exactly.

In SOS Stannis and Davos  discuss about his claim to the throne. Stannis mentions his duty to his House and that he intends to bring justice, explaining that Robert's court was rotten. And then he shares an interesting detail about Jon Arryn:

 

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 No more than the Kingslayer. At the least, Robert should have stripped the white cloak from Jaime and sent him to the Wall, as Lord Stark urged. He listened to Jon Arryn instead. I was still at Storm's End, under siege and unconsulted.

Jon Arryn did his best to please the different factions who had fought in the war, following Robert's victory.

We know that it was him who travelled to Dorne to reconcile with the Martells after the brutal murder of Elia and her children. That was definitely a challenging task.

 

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Jon Arryn came to Sunspear the year after Robert took the throne, and you can be sure that he was questioned closely. 

It was also the same  man who had arranged Cersei's betrothal to Robert

 

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When had a Hand ever brought her anything but grief? Jon Arryn put Robert Baratheon in her bed, and before he died he'd begun sniffing about her and Jaime as well.

From Eddard's recollections, Jon was the type of man who could control, advise and guide Robert, another challenging task.

 

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When he had protested that the young prince and princess were no more than babes, his new-made king had replied, "I see no babes. Only dragonspawn." Not even Jon Arryn had been able to calm that storm. Eddard Stark had ridden out that very day in a cold rage, to fight the last battles of the war alone in the south. 

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 I should have had them both killed years ago, when it was easy to get at them, but Jon was as bad as you. More fool I, I listened to him."

"Jon Arryn was a wise man and a good Hand."

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 He was no Jon Arryn, to curb the wildness of his king and teach him wisdom.

Allowing Jaime to remain in the KG was a diplomatic decision.

Had he been executed or sent to the Wall, Tywin Lannister would have never forgiven Robert, especially if one considers that Tywin turned against his King for Robert. 

[marsyao]

7 hours ago, The Wolves said:

Why would Tywin be furious about not getting the Hand position? Robert was not thinking at all about Tywin when he chose Ned for the Hand position. And Jaime is named Warden of the East after Jon Arryn dies 15yrs after the war not to appease Tywin just cause the dude is stupid. 

This still doesn't answer my question on when did Robert ever hint that he didn't trust Tywin? 

Why would Tywin be furious about not getting the Hand position? Do you know Tywin at all?

[The Wolves]

17 minutes ago, marsyao said:

Why would Tywin be furious about not getting the Hand position? Do you know Tywin at all?

Do you? 

His grandson is the future king and daughter queen plus son a Kingsguard with Lannisters getting positions in Robert's court. Tywin did not need the Hand post when the Lannisters had great positions at court. 

 

[The Wolves]

1 hour ago, Danelle said:

Exactly.

In SOS Stannis and Davos  discuss about his claim to the throne. Stannis mentions his duty to his House and that he intends to bring justice, explaining that Robert's court was rotten. And then he shares an interesting detail about Jon Arryn:

 

Jon Arryn did his best to please the different factions who had fought in the war, following Robert's victory.

We know that it was him who travelled to Dorne to reconcile with the Martells after the brutal murder of Elia and her children. That was definitely a challenging task.

 

It was also the same  man who had arranged Cersei's betrothal to Robert

 

From Eddard's recollections, Jon was the type of man who could control, advise and guide Robert, another challenging task.

 

Allowing Jaime to remain in the KG was a diplomatic decision.

Had he been executed or sent to the Wall, Tywin Lannister would have never forgiven Robert, especially if one considers that Tywin turned against his King for Robert. 

And this is why I have no good opinion on Jon Arryn, he was a bad Hand and a hypocrite. 

[Bael's Bastard]

3 hours ago, Danelle said:

Allowing Jaime to remain in the KG was a diplomatic decision.

Had he been executed or sent to the Wall, Tywin Lannister would have never forgiven Robert, especially if one considers that Tywin turned against his King for Robert. 

I see where you are coming from, and we can't rule out that this was the case. But, especially with Jon Arryn being the brains behind the move, I lean toward at least his line of thinking being more about keeping one of the most valuable things to Tywin under their power as insurance.

I agree that keeping Jaime in the Kingsguard goes over with Tywin much better than sending him to the Wall or executing him would have, but I suspect Tywin had hoped he could persuade Robert (and the Faith) to release Jaime from his KG vows (and I suspect he had hoped prior to the war that he could do the same with Rhaegar).

But Tywin can't really openly complain, because on the surface Jaime was kept from facing any consequences for his crime, and was permitted to remain in his post as if nothing happened. And Tywin can't really blame Robert and Jon for Jaime being in the KG in the first place, because Aerys is the one who made Jaime KG.

Robert and Jon could claim that they do not have the power or precedent to release Jaime from his vows, and that this was as favorable-to-Jaime a compromise between what Tywin and Ned would have preferred as could be arranged.

But I don't think keeping Jaime in a post which Aerys had assigned him to against Tywin's will, in order to deprive Tywin of his only beloved son and heir, and to keep that son and heir as a hostage, is something Tywin would have been happy about, or that it was intended to appease him.

I think he was faced with the bitter reality that helping replace the king who had taken his son from him had failed to restore his son to him. The new king and regime only enforced the decree which had caused Tywin to resign and remove his support from Aerys in the first place.

Tywin's consolation is that he finally made his daughter queen, but to a man and king he presumably had much less respect, regard for, and faith in than the one he had been trying to marry her to under Aerys.

[marsyao]

1 hour ago, The Wolves said:

Do you? 

His grandson is the future king and daughter queen plus son a Kingsguard with Lannisters getting positions in Robert's court. Tywin did not need the Hand post when the Lannisters had great positions at court. 

 

Of course I do, Tywin wanted be the hand in his entire life, it is very different between grasping the power in his own hand and letting his stupid daughter and grandson run the show

[Tini]

30 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

I see where you are coming from, and we can't rule out that this was the case. But, especially with Jon Arryn being the brains behind the move, I lean toward at least his line of thinking being more about keeping one of the most valuable things to Tywin under their power as insurance.

I agree that keeping Jaime in the Kingsguard goes over with Tywin much better than sending him to the Wall or executing him would have, but I suspect Tywin had hoped he could persuade Robert (and the Faith) to release Jaime from his KG vows (and I suspect he had hoped prior to the war that he could do the same with Rhaegar).

But Tywin can't really openly complain, because on the surface Jaime was kept from facing any consequences for his crime, and was permitted to remain in his post as if nothing happened. And Tywin can't really blame Robert and Jon for Jaime being in the KG in the first place, because Aerys is the one who made Jaime KG.

Robert and Jon could claim that they do not have the power or precedent to release Jaime from his vows, and that this was as favorable-to-Jaime a compromise between what Tywin and Ned would have preferred as could be arranged.

But I don't think keeping Jaime in a post which Aerys had assigned him to against Tywin's will, in order to deprive Tywin of his only beloved son and heir, and to keep that son and heir as a hostage, is something Tywin would have been happy about, or that it was intended to appease him.

I think he was faced with the bitter reality that helping replace the king who had taken his son from him had failed to restore his son to him. The new king and regime only enforced the decree which had caused Tywin to resign and remove his support from Aerys in the first place.

Tywin's consolation is that he finally made his daughter queen, but to a man and king he presumably had much less respect, regard for, and faith in than the one he had been trying to marry her to under Aerys.

Executing Jaime would've outraged Tywin, though. Not killing him, then, was not appeasement - but nevertheless meant to keep Tywin happy.
Releasing Jaime from his vows would've gone against unwritten laws - and it would've upset other noble houses further. Tywin already got away with murdering Rhaegar's wife and children.

And while Aerys made Jaime a King's Guard against Tywin's wishes, it happened to be what Jaime wanted. That way Jaime intended to escape an arranged marriage, and be close to Cersei when she married Rhaegar. It didn't work out as planned but that got fixed when Cersei married Robert. Jaime had no Intention of renouncing his vows. Cersei would've wanted him close. Robert was so kind as to comply with his wife's wishes.

Tywin never quite accepted Jaime's escape. But there was nothing he could do until Joffrey ascended the Iron Throne.

It was Cersei who gave Tywin the opening he needed: by releasing Ser Barristan from his sworn duty. She didn't understand what she had done until Tyrion spelled it out for her: KG were not released from their vows alive, ever, because they knew the royal family's deepest secrets. Cersei then tried to have Barristan killed.

Tyrion understood this. Tywin would've understood it, too. So did Rhaegar, and possibly even Robert. Rhaegar wouldn't have set Jaime free because Jaime knew too much about House Targaryen. There was a slim chance Robert might have set Jaime free right at the start, before Jaime started serving him. But he didn't, and the window of opportunity closed. 

When Cersei created the precedent Tywin's hopes were rekindled, just to be crushed by none other than Jaime himself.  And Tywin finally understood that it was Jaime himself who thwarted his plans, not Aerys, not Robert.

[John Doe]

16 hours ago, theblackdragonI said:

As a member of the Kingsguard he killed his king, an unforgivable crime. But why was he kept on in the KG? 

We know that Ned and I'moture much more wanted him dismissed/forced to the watch/executed.

But if Robert pardoned him to appease the Lannisters, why didn't he dismiss him from the KG? Why didn't Tywin push for this?

Was keeping him in the KG meant as a punishment? Because that seems like a real corrupt and stupid punishment as he was a permanent stain on the order and we know that at least Barristan wasn't fond of him in the order. 

Robert said it himself, to him all rebells technically broke their oaths of fealty and fought against the Mad King, and Jaime did do him a service with his killing. Punishing him was a no go as it would have damaged the newly won alliance with the Lannisters, and as a Kingsguard he was still a useful hostage just in case, so more useful than he had been if Robert had just freed him of his oaths. It's also not so easy to just dismiss him, nobody had done this until Cersei and Joffrey fired Barristan. 

[Knight of Bobcats]

I think that releasing Jaime from his vows and sending him to Casterly Rock while not marrying Cersei would have been Robert's best course of action. If nothing else, distancing himself from Tywin's treachery and child-murder might have helped reconcile Dorne to Baratheon rule. Dismissing Jaime from his prestigious slot in the Kingsguard might seem harsh yet it  would also allow Tywin to save face since he's got his heir back as opposed to being condemned to the Wall. It's hardly ideal but it doesn't seem like Tywin would have much leverage by this point, having alienated both sides. The North-Riverlands-Vale bloc wouldn't forget that Casterly Rock didn't lift a finger to help them until after Rhaegar's death nor would the Targaryen loyalists forgive the man who betrayed Aerys and massacred the royal family.    

 

[Bael's Bastard]

42 minutes ago, Tini said:

Executing Jaime would've outraged Tywin, though. Not killing him, then, was not appeasement - but nevertheless meant to keep Tywin happy.
Releasing Jaime from his vows would've gone against unwritten laws - and it would've upset other noble houses further. Tywin already got away with murdering Rhaegar's wife and children.

And while Aerys made Jaime a King's Guard against Tywin's wishes, it happened to be what Jaime wanted. That way Jaime intended to escape an arranged marriage, and be close to Cersei when she married Rhaegar. It didn't work out as planned but that got fixed when Cersei married Robert. Jaime had no Intention of renouncing his vows. Cersei would've wanted him close. Robert was so kind as to comply with his wife's wishes.

Tywin never quite accepted Jaime's escape. But there was nothing he could do until Joffrey ascended the Iron Throne.

It was Cersei who gave Tywin the opening he needed: by releasing Ser Barristan from his sworn duty. She didn't understand what she had done until Tyrion spelled it out for her: KG were not released from their vows alive, ever, because they knew the royal family's deepest secrets. Cersei then tried to have Barristan killed.

Tyrion understood this. Tywin would've understood it, too. So did Rhaegar, and possibly even Robert. Rhaegar wouldn't have set Jaime free because Jaime knew too much about House Targaryen. There was a slim chance Robert might have set Jaime free right at the start, before Jaime started serving him. But he didn't, and the window of opportunity closed. 

When Cersei created the precedent Tywin's hopes were rekindled, just to be crushed by none other than Jaime himself.  And Tywin finally understood that it was Jaime himself who thwarted his plans, not Aerys, not Robert.

It doesn't seem like execution was ever seriously considered. Even Ned urged that Jaime be sent to the Wall. And while I imagine Tywin preferred Jaime remaining in the KG over being sent to the Wall, in either case Tywin would be deprived of his heir and Jaime would never have legitimate children. It is to Robert and Jon that Jaime remaining in the KG is most beneficial. Having Jaime in KL with them as a KG keeps him under their power in a way that sending him to the Wall does not. I'm not sure to what extent Robert considered this, but I do think Jon had this in mind when he argued against Ned's idea of sending Jaime to the Wall.

Cersei ultimately set the new precedent for KG, but I suspect Tywin previously had hopes and perhaps even plots to see Jaime released. There may not have been a precedent for releasing KG at the time, but the KG are not the only order in Westeros with vows. The World Book says an effort was made by those who hated Egg to determine whether Aemon could be released from his maester vows. Even earlier, in AGOT, we were told that the High Septon himself had offered to absolve Aemon from his maester vows so he could become king. Whether Rhaegar or Robert actually would have released him, I think Tywin hoped to get Jaime released from his vows.