Rant and Rave without Repercussions [S7 Leaks Edition]

[alienarea]

Beric died in the books so Catelyn could become Stoneheart, didn't he? All the show dialogue between Jon and Beric cannot happen in the books.Will he go on a wight hunt with Stoneheart there? 

[Einheri]

59 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

The amount of time that passes between death and resurrection appears to have a huge influence on how well the character fares. Beric was first resurrected almost immediately, whereas Cat was left to rot in a river for three days. We don't see Beric until after his fifth resurrection, but I think we can infer that he started off better than Cat did. I don't think Mel will resurrect Jon as quickly as Thoros did Beric, but I do think his soul will be better sheltered than Cat's was through his warging of Ghost. However, he will still be changed. Even if being dead had no effect on him, being assassinated by his own men would.

Jon's body, on the other hand, will likely be damaged by all of this. We know that wargs can live on in other animals after death, but even still that does not stop their bodies from decomposing like a normal corpse would. This makes me think that a R'hllor resurrection revitalizes the soul, and that the body essentially remains a walking corpse that's been frozen in place. 

I’m still not sure what to make of George’s fire wight comment. That Beric's heart is longer beating and blood is no longer flowing through his veins doesn’t really jive with what we see in aSoS where he uses his own blood to ignite his sword and blood is pouring out of him after Sandor runs him through. Unlike the Other’s wights, Beric also seem to be vulnerable to pretty much anything that would normally kill a person (one of his death was by hanging, for instance, and since his neck isn’t broken, it would seem he needs oxygen to stay alive just as the rest of us).

My best attempt at making sense of all of this, is that Beric might have been in significantly worse shape at the point when he gave his life up to Cat than he was when we encountered him in aSoS. Perhaps this is because he’s died so many times that Thoros is no longer able to bring him back to the same standard as before. I mean Thoros seems to be in pretty poor shape in contrast to when we first saw him in aGoT, and I guess it’s because he had to give up an amount of his own life energy to bring back  Beric, similar to how producing shadowbabies seem to have drained Stannis’ life energy. Life (whatever shape or form it might take) doesn’t come for free after all in this universe.

So, if we want Jon back from the dead, and more or less in complete shape (capable of getting a stiffy and all), then I’d imagine that a significant toll will probably have to be paid, probably a human sacrifice or something along those lines.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

2 hours ago, Ser Quork said:

The interview was about Lady Stoneheart (who GRRM calls a "vengeful wight") and then GRRM talks of his disappointment that Gandalf came back from the dead and the interviewer goes on to ask about Jon, but GRRM goes back to Beric:

I don't think it's a clear-cut as you do.  And we have yet know what he'll do with Book Jon and - far more importantly - how he'll do it and what Jon'll be like.  I'm not convinced Book Jon will be like show counterpart.  

See, this is where I find GRRM;s trickiness showing, and it seems they are talking past each other.  This convo is all over the place, on various characters and stories, and what is a fire wight and then the word RIGHT, it's hard to say he's saying RIGHT Jon is a firewight or is he saying........RIGHT a fire wight, as I've illustrated with Beric and LSH would be a thing that you wouldn't want Jon to be.  I don't think it's clear at all, either.  Even in the show, and I don't think the show much cares what a GRRM fire wight is.  I don't either.  I care what Jon will be, bookwise, and I'm not convinced that this interview gave us the answer.  GRRM is always sneaky with these answers, not to mention, they were talking many different aspects of this area with each other, all at once, over each other almost.  That's why I'm not convinced on it. 

[Ser Quork]

41 minutes ago, alienarea said:

Beric died in the books so Catelyn could become Stoneheart, didn't he? All the show dialogue between Jon and Beric cannot happen in the books.Will he go on a wight hunt with Stoneheart there? 

He did indeed so no show dialogue for book Beric.  I'd be surprised if there's a wight hunt in the books - Jon has a stash of two in the ice cells.  

[Lady Fevre Dream]

42 minutes ago, alienarea said:

Beric died in the books so Catelyn could become Stoneheart, didn't he? All the show dialogue between Jon and Beric cannot happen in the books.Will he go on a wight hunt with Stoneheart there? 

LOLOLOL  That was a great laugh, thank you.  Poor LSH, can't really talk this out anyway, can she? 

[Ser Quork]

2 minutes ago, Lady Fevre Dream said:

See, this is where I find GRRM;s trickiness showing, and it seems they are talking past each other.  This convo is all over the place, on various characters and stories, and what is a fire wight and then the word RIGHT, it's hard to say he's saying RIGHT Jon is a firewight or is he saying........RIGHT a fire wight, as I've illustrated with Beric and LSH would be a thing that you wouldn't want Jon to be.  I don't think it's clear at all, either.  Even in the show, and I don't think the show much cares what a GRRM fire wight is.  I don't either.  I care what Jon will be, bookwise, and I'm not convinced that this interview gave us the answer.  GRRM is always sneaky with these answers, not to mention, they were talking many different aspects of this area with each other, all at once, over each other almost.  That's why I'm not convinced on it. 

I agree with you - they could well have been talking at cross-purposes there.  My own view is he was saying the bolded. I may be wrong.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

16 minutes ago, Ser Quork said:

I agree with you - they could well have been talking at cross-purposes there.  My own view is he was saying the bolded. I may be wrong.

I may be wrong, I totally get that.  I've had another thought when it comes to GRRM saying RIGHT and then going on to talk about the problems with being a firewight.  What if what he's saying is;  Yeah, being a firewight isn't a great thing, I foreshadowed that with Beric and LSH, but yup, the show went ahead and made Jon a firewight, LOL  Who knows, I really do think this interview sounds and looks like two people talking over each other, though.  I think the foreshadowing in the books is to tell us readers that we need to hope Jon is saved in a different manner.  This firewight business isn't the best answer.  Plus, Mel has no idea what Thoros has been doing, bookwise.  I also hear Aemon in my head talking about the cold and the Wall preserving.  What if the Wall's actual magic helps?  What if a giant combo of warging, fire magic from Mel, Ice magic from The Wall gives Jon even more of the Ice and Fire combo? 

[Ser Quork]

2 minutes ago, Lady Fevre Dream said:

I may be wrong, I totally get that.  I've had another thought when it comes to GRRM saying RIGHT and then going on to talk about the problems with being a firewight.  What if what he's saying is;  Yeah, being a firewight isn't a great thing, I foreshadowed that with Beric and LSH, but yup, the show went ahead and made Jon a firewight, LOL  Who knows, I really do think this interview sounds and looks like two people talking over each other, though.  I think the foreshadowing in the books is to tell us readers that we need to hope Jon is saved in a different manner.  This firewight business isn't the best answer.  Plus, Mel has no idea what Thoros has been doing, bookwise.  I also hear Aemon in my head talking about the cold and the Wall preserving.  What if the Wall's actual magic helps?  What if a giant combo of warging, fire magic from Mel, Ice magic from The Wall gives Jon even more of the Ice and Fire combo? 

Completely agree.

 

[Lady Fevre Dream]

This all reminds me how none of the sample chapters give us info about stuff up at The Wall.  Maybe working out the Jon situation is worse than that Mereenese Knot?  LOL  Actually, I would guess he's worked out how he's moving Jon forward from The Ides of Marsh, but getting it to us seems to be a whole nother story. 

[Consigliere]

18 minutes ago, Lady Fevre Dream said:

This all reminds me how none of the sample chapters give us info about stuff up at The Wall.  Maybe working out the Jon situation is worse than that Mereenese Knot?  LOL  Actually, I would guess he's worked out how he's moving Jon forward from The Ides of Marsh, but getting it to us seems to be a whole nother story. 

Don't know about that. Jon's stabbing was a major cliffhanger so I really doubt that Martin would even consider releasing any sample chapters containing info that could spoil that situation.

[Liver and Onions]

I agree that GRRM would want to be as vague as possible about the details of Jon's resurrection/recovery. It's possible he could survive and be healed normally, but also that magic gets involved one way or the other. I know we're all eager to find out.  The only real clue the show is giving me at this point is that Jon will be back in some form. Thanks, show! That's all I need you for!

[Lord Varys]

One can always hope that Jon comes back as a super man in the books.

But how realistic is that scenario when the author basically tells us again and again that he doesn't like Gandalf's return in LotR? George killed Jon. He didn't need to do that. If he had wanted to give him special powers he wouldn't have to kill him. He didn't kill Bran, either, to make him a greenseer.

It is pretty clear that Ghost and Jon's second life are going to allow him to trick death, at least for a time. Varamyr's entire prologue would be a waste of time if the second life as concept would have no impact on the overall story.

Melisandre doesn't need to know about the effects of the kiss of life. It is part of the burial rites of the red priests, and if Jon gets some sort of burial it is most likely that Mel will conduct those rites. She also married Alys Karstark to Sigorn.

And then things will go from there. Jon's body will be resurrected by the same magic that animates Catelyn and Beric but his spirit is not going to be called back from beyond. That shouldn't make him as worse as Beric and especially Catelyn but he is most definitely not going to be the same guy. 

[Le Cygne]

Breathing doesn't preclude being a wight in showverse, since Beric breathes and all... That's the only way the actors can play it.

[Le Cygne]

The show is not distinguishing between Beric and Jon. They both were resurrected by red priests. And Jon asked her not to bring him back again.

"I don't know what [the lord of light] wants from me... What's the purpose of serving a god if none of us knows what he wants?"

[sweetsunray]

3 hours ago, Lady Fevre Dream said:

See, this is where I find GRRM;s trickiness showing, and it seems they are talking past each other.  This convo is all over the place, on various characters and stories, and what is a fire wight and then the word RIGHT, it's hard to say he's saying RIGHT Jon is a firewight or is he saying........RIGHT a fire wight, as I've illustrated with Beric and LSH would be a thing that you wouldn't want Jon to be.  I don't think it's clear at all, either.  Even in the show, and I don't think the show much cares what a GRRM fire wight is.  I don't either.  I care what Jon will be, bookwise, and I'm not convinced that this interview gave us the answer.  GRRM is always sneaky with these answers, not to mention, they were talking many different aspects of this area with each other, all at once, over each other almost.  That's why I'm not convinced on it. 

He was talking about LS and about Beric. The interviwer mentioned Jon, but only show-Jon has been confirmed to have actually died and resurrected. So, he said "right" imo to show-Jon and ASAP switched to Beric. He clearly didn't want to talk about Jon, and wanted to evade it.

[Le Cygne]

“There are a lot of dark chapters right now in the book that I’m writing,” Martin said. “It is called The Winds of Winter, and I’ve been telling you for 20 years that winter was coming. Winter is the time when things die, and cold and ice and darkness fill the world, so this is not going to be the happy feel-good that people may be hoping for. Some of the characters [are] in very dark places.”

http://ew.com/article/2016/12/06/george-rr-martin-teases-winds-of-winter/

[Lady Fevre Dream]

6 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

He was talking about LS and about Beric. The interviwer mentioned Jon, but only show-Jon has been confirmed to have actually died and resurrected. So, he said "right" imo to show-Jon and ASAP switched to Beric. He clearly didn't want to talk about Jon, and wanted to evade it.

You've described exactly what I find problematic about thinking this was definitive statement about Jon for the books.  Also, bookwise, we have Beric and LSH doing a pretty good job of rotting somewhat before our eyes.  Granted, they have different circumstances, but I would think if Jon really was exactly like them, then a bigger concern would be his junk actually rotting and falling off........not whether or not he can impregnate someone, much less have sex.  Show wise, I'm thinking the Ds don't want to get too technical with what this all actually is, they hate magic, etc., that's for sure, they certainly seem to hate magic that takes any explanation.  It's just hard to think that Jon is exactly the same as a book fire wight, considering Jon's story line implications on the show. 

 

20 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

The show is not distinguishing between Beric and Jon. They both were resurrected by red priests. And Jon asked her not to bring him back again.

"I don't know what [the lord of light] wants from me... What's the purpose of serving a god if none of us knows what he wants?"

I don't think one has to have been dead, be it for a minute, an hour, or a few........to feel depressed, to feel that they don't understand the point of living, to feel that they don't understand a god, to feel like they've seen enough.  I don't really see this as......yeah, I'm Beric's twin. 

[Le Cygne]

The show is not distinguishing between Beric and Jon in terms of resurrection by the lord of light. That's the discussion.

They were both resurrected by red priests. Whatever one is, the other is, in terms of physicality. They themselves see it the same.

They are both talking about resurrection and what it means, both are pondering what the lord of light wants them to do.

[sweetsunray]

4 minutes ago, Lady Fevre Dream said:

You've described exactly what I find problematic about thinking this was definitive statement about Jon for the books.  Also, bookwise, we have Beric and LSH doing a pretty good job of rotting somewhat before our eyes.  Granted, they have different circumstances, but I would think if Jon really was exactly like them, then a bigger concern would be his junk actually rotting and falling off........not whether or not he can impregnate someone, much less have sex.  Show wise, I'm thinking the Ds don't want to get too technical with what this all actually is, they hate magic, etc., that's for sure, they certainly seem to hate magic that takes any explanation.  It's just hard to think that Jon is exactly the same as a book fire wight, considering Jon's story line implications on the show. 

My opinion is that it's not for nothing that the Wall is so full of magic, preserving... Aemon was so old. When did he get sick? During his voyage. Not confirmed but suggested the Wall was what kept him alive for so long. Aemon seems to think so. In the show Aemon died at the Wall. Wall + ghost. I'm not sure he actually dies. George also showed us healing magic with Victarion. And Dany didn't die in the fire. As a parallel, Jon may not actually have died.

As for Bran: that chapter of his fall ended with a cliffhanger. If that was at the end of a book, we'd think him dead. Turned out he was broken and comatose instead.

And yes, D's don't want to go into those technicalities at all. They'd prefer a Ferrari raven than swtiching between magic. Most technical we had is the WWs having their minions. And those are things we haven't seen in the books at all, not sure we ever will and seems to have invented to solve the "how will we get them to capture one." After all, as far as we know there's no NK in the books. They also needed Jon to be on the move to hang Alliser and Olly and do a BatB, so they couldn't have him in a coma, could they?

 

[Le Cygne]

So let's assume Jon doesn't die in the books, and the worst that happens is he's a bit more wolfy after spending a few hours inside Ghost... which he already does in his dreams... so multiple stab wounds, miraculously recovers, no big deal.

And let's assume the show for some reason decided to have him die and resurrected and made a point that he's like Beric in this way, and therefore there is a big cost to it. But then the show being the show, they just forget next season, no big deal.

Seems like a big mess.