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Maester Vargo

Crackpot theory about Theon's fate in TWOW

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Whoa.  Just had a new theory pop into my head.  It seems a bit out there, but not as far out there as some theories I've seen and I need to share.    

Theon has Kings Blood.  He also has First Men blood, right?  The Greyjoys were first men, though they intermarried with Andals, but they still have first men blood.

And, we have seen evidence that Bloodraven (and, perhaps not knowing the endgame, Bran?) are trying to reach out to Stannis (and Theon), to execute him before a Weirwood (the Ravens crowing "Tree" "Tree" in the Theon sample chapter).   But why?  Because of the first men blood.  The king's blood.  But also because Theon is broken.  He's been mentally and physically disfigured.  He's a shadow of a man.  

I say that the Children and Bloodraven are in league, and the goal is to purge Westeros of men.  Furthermore, I think that it seems very likely that the Others were created by the Children as weapons against men (I would imagine the Others are created from First Men of power, but they have to be broken first.  Ruined). Finally, I think Bloodraven isn't strong enough to do this on his own, that's why he needed Bran.  Bran doesn't know Bloodraven's end game, but he has tremendous power, and is young and can be manipulated.  

The result here is that Stannis killing Theon before the Weirwood will cause him to arise again, as an Other.  Something with the Weirwood, combined with the Powers of Bloodraven and Bran will allow this magical transformation to occur. 

The first Other south of the Wall since the time of the Nights King.  This is where Winter really begins.  The winner of the battle of Ice doesn't matter, because the real winners are the Children, and Bloodraven.  Theon will be able to raise the corpses of the battle as Wights, and the Wights will march on Winterfell, which is no longer occupied by a Stark.  

This is far from a fully realized crackpot theory, but it seems crazy enough to be part of what's going to happen. 

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I think there is a good probability that Theon gets executed by Stannis (Ned Stark's way) at the tree and because of his king blood (and Bran+BR) something crazy happens that allows Stannis to win the battle and even WF. It has some sense also because justice will be served something that Theon himself strives for.

Yet, I believe that Theon will live and will be fundamental in bringing down Euron and save the ironmen, as foreshadowed by the Torgon & Urrathon tale, etc. Also, there is a lot of the knowledge regarding Bolton's actions only known to Theon and someone has to tell that story.  

Now, Stannis becoming an Other or the NK or something similar has little sense. It's not his arc if I'm reading correctly. I believe that Stannis succeeds in his battle against the Boltons. He may even succeed in uniting the North and being recognized as king, because this is his role, be the king. But when the Others come and he falls in despair and tries to become AAR he will fail miserably, because he is not.

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The Children are near extinct, they are going to it, like the giants. And I believe the Children when they say it. IMO, the Children creating the Others and the NK is D&D's bullshit. IMO, both Melisandre and Yi Ti legends are true, when they state the Others are Gods and demons (Lion of Night = Great Other = god of Death).

I believe Theon will recover. Bringing him to a Weirwood will enable Bloodraven to warg him, and to talk to Stannis. To help both Stannis and Theon to fight Euron, who is the greatest danger for everyone. Euron may be the new Bloodstone Emperor of the Yi Ti legends, and the true cause of the Long Night.

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On 1/17/2017 at 1:15 PM, Maester Vargo said:

Whoa.  Just had a new theory pop into my head.  It seems a bit out there, but not as far out there as some theories I've seen and I need to share.    

Theon has Kings Blood.  He also has First Men blood, right?  The Greyjoys were first men, though they intermarried with Andals, but they still have first men blood.

And, we have seen evidence that Bloodraven (and, perhaps not knowing the endgame, Bran?) are trying to reach out to Stannis (and Theon), to execute him before a Weirwood (the Ravens crowing "Tree" "Tree" in the Theon sample chapter).   But why?  Because of the first men blood.  The king's blood.  But also because Theon is broken.  He's been mentally and physically disfigured.  He's a shadow of a man.  

I say that the Children and Bloodraven are in league, and the goal is to purge Westeros of men.  Furthermore, I think that it seems very likely that the Others were created by the Children as weapons against men (I would imagine the Others are created from First Men of power, but they have to be broken first.  Ruined). Finally, I think Bloodraven isn't strong enough to do this on his own, that's why he needed Bran.  Bran doesn't know Bloodraven's end game, but he has tremendous power, and is young and can be manipulated.  

The result here is that Stannis killing Theon before the Weirwood will cause him to arise again, as an Other.  Something with the Weirwood, combined with the Powers of Bloodraven and Bran will allow this magical transformation to occur. 

The first Other south of the Wall since the time of the Nights King.  This is where Winter really begins.  The winner of the battle of Ice doesn't matter, because the real winners are the Children, and Bloodraven.  Theon will be able to raise the corpses of the battle as Wights, and the Wights will march on Winterfell, which is no longer occupied by a Stark.  

This is far from a fully realized crackpot theory, but it seems crazy enough to be part of what's going to happen. 

almost every single person in westeros has kingsblood and blood of the first men. it is why kingsblood is bullshit 

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On 1/21/2017 at 0:54 PM, BalerionTheCat said:

The Children are near extinct, they are going to it, like the giants. And I believe the Children when they say it. IMO, the Children creating the Others and the NK is D&D's bullshit. IMO, both Melisandre and Yi Ti legends are true, when they state the Others are Gods and demons (Lion of Night = Great Other = god of Death).

I believe Theon will recover. Bringing him to a Weirwood will enable Bloodraven to warg him, and to talk to Stannis. To help both Stannis and Theon to fight Euron, who is the greatest danger for everyone. Euron may be the new Bloodstone Emperor of the Yi Ti legends, and the true cause of the Long Night.

I agree with what you said about Theon and Euron.

Now about first part, we don't actually know if there is a NK or any leader of Others. But I think it is possible (I am still not sure if I believe this, but it is very possible) that Children created Others and it either backfired them or they are somehow still in their control, also it may be that men broke pact with Children and this is why Others are rising. That thing with stabbing man with obsidian I do not find likely at all. So maybe Children crated Others, but there are a lot of different things from show IMO (most importantly I do not think they are friendly to men and I think Bran is their prisoner and maybe even Bloodraven).

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On 25/01/2017 at 5:04 PM, dariopatke said:

I agree with what you said about Theon and Euron.

Now about first part, we don't actually know if there is a NK or any leader of Others. But I think it is possible (I am still not sure if I believe this, but it is very possible) that Children created Others and it either backfired them or they are somehow still in their control, also it may be that men broke pact with Children and this is why Others are rising. That thing with stabbing man with obsidian I do not find likely at all. So maybe Children crated Others, but there are a lot of different things from show IMO (most importantly I do not think they are friendly to men and I think Bran is their prisoner and maybe even Bloodraven).

The Children and Bloodraven certainly have a pretty good idea of what are the Others. Some other people, learned in Death things, may know stuff too (the kindly man, Marwyn, Euron ...). But the Children creating the Others? IMHO, nothing really points in this direction. ASoIaF has the theme of slaves rebelling against their masters (Slavers' Bay, Bravos), and of magic going havoc (Valyria). Yes, he Others could be a Chlidren's experiment failure. Maybe. But I would rather believe they are the God's punishment for violating every one of their interdiction.

IMO, the Yi Ti legends, given by the WoIaF book, are drawing a pretty good picture of what is going on now in Westeros and Essos. And would be the explanation of why the Long Night is being inflicted on men:

... dark arts, torture, and necromancy, enslaved his people ...

Despairing of the evil that had been unleashed on earth, the Maiden-Made-of-Light turned her back upon the world, and the Lion of Night came forth in all his wroth to punish the wickedness of men.

Some of what is written is quite obscure. But much is quite adequate (IMO) to what happens today.

Concerning specifically the Others, the legends refer to the "Lion of Night and his demons" during "the morning of the Great Empire'. It seems to me, the Others are the demons serving the Great Other of Melisandre. This was much before the First Men war, and afar from Westeros. Really, I don't fell the Children able to create such things. Or it was much earlier and somewhere else than we think.

You need to believe somewhat in the Yi Ti legends. The maesters are very questionable in general. But Yi Ti feels different for me:

Whatever the truth, Yi Ti was beyond question one of the places where men first climbed from the pit of savagery to civilization ... and literacy, for the wise men of the east have been reading and writing for many thousands of years.

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I like your crackpot even though I do not think it is likely. What I definitely am on board with is that Theon has a bigger role to play. I am coming to suspect the House of the Undying prophecy is all over his arc.

The reason is that if we really look at what he has done so far he already has played a very important role in several different ways:

- Theon has had a major hand in one of the great fires of the series. (Making it possible for Ramsay to burn down the most important location of the ice-arc - Winterfell)

- Theon is being held responsible for on of the great treasons in the story. (He even gets called Theon Turncloak).

- Theon has created one of the big lies in the series (that Bran and Rickon are dead) and helped create a second one (that Jeyne is Arya)

- Theon has had a literal burning stallion, rearing (his horse, Smiler in Winterfell)

- Theon has been called Prince of Winterfell (he even has a chapter by that name)

- Theon has had dark hair that turned to white

- Theon seems to be on his own twisted kind of redemption arc (helping Jeyne escape)

- Theon has been instrumental in showing Lady Dustin the entance to the crypts and giving her access to the tombs of Brandon, Lyanna etc. In the same instance he has served as a plot device to remind us that Bran is the stone beast taking wing at the smoking tower.

Also Rotting Sea Cow makes a good point about it being foreshadowed that Theon may save the ironborn: We know that Asha has plans for Theon regarding the invalidation of the kingsmoot that crowned Euron. And Asha literally describes Theon as a 'little brother' while she fantasizes about strangling someone.

 

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On 17/01/2017 at 6:15 PM, Maester Vargo said:

Whoa.  Just had a new theory pop into my head.  It seems a bit out there, but not as far out there as some theories I've seen and I need to share.    

Theon has Kings Blood.  He also has First Men blood, right?  The Greyjoys were first men, though they intermarried with Andals, but they still have first men blood.

And, we have seen evidence that Bloodraven (and, perhaps not knowing the endgame, Bran?) are trying to reach out to Stannis (and Theon), to execute him before a Weirwood (the Ravens crowing "Tree" "Tree" in the Theon sample chapter).   But why?  Because of the first men blood.  The king's blood.  But also because Theon is broken.  He's been mentally and physically disfigured.  He's a shadow of a man.  

I say that the Children and Bloodraven are in league, and the goal is to purge Westeros of men.  Furthermore, I think that it seems very likely that the Others were created by the Children as weapons against men (I would imagine the Others are created from First Men of power, but they have to be broken first.  Ruined). Finally, I think Bloodraven isn't strong enough to do this on his own, that's why he needed Bran.  Bran doesn't know Bloodraven's end game, but he has tremendous power, and is young and can be manipulated.  

The result here is that Stannis killing Theon before the Weirwood will cause him to arise again, as an Other.  Something with the Weirwood, combined with the Powers of Bloodraven and Bran will allow this magical transformation to occur. 

The first Other south of the Wall since the time of the Nights King.  This is where Winter really begins.  The winner of the battle of Ice doesn't matter, because the real winners are the Children, and Bloodraven.  Theon will be able to raise the corpses of the battle as Wights, and the Wights will march on Winterfell, which is no longer occupied by a Stark.  

This is far from a fully realized crackpot theory, but it seems crazy enough to be part of what's going to happen. 

BR and Bran want Stannis to take Theon to the heart tree, only they don't want to have him executed, they want to use him. 

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5 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I see. Good catch. A beaten and broken theon would be an easier skin to change than someone fighting, like Thistle 

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45 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

I see. Good catch. A beaten and broken theon would be an easier skin to change than someone fighting, like Thistle 

Yeah, and I think Theon might not fight it, making the whole process a lot easier. Remember in Dance how he thinks often about the horrible things he's done? And then there's the scene where he thinks that the OG know his name... And remember how Bran tries to calm Hodor down when he's skinchanging him? Hodor lacks the ability to understand what's going on, but if Theon realises what's going on, I think he may give himself over willingly, maybe to atone for some of his awful deeds. 

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2 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Yeah, and I think Theon might not fight it, making the whole process a lot easier. Remember in Dance how he thinks often about the horrible things he's done? And then there's the scene where he thinks that the OG know his name... And remember how Bran tries to calm Hodor down when he's skinchanging him? Hodor lacks the ability to understand what's going on, but if Theon realises what's going on, I think he may give himself over willingly, maybe to atone for some of his awful deeds. 

exactly 

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In the first book,in one of Bran's POV is show that Bran knows some secret passageways and shortcuts on Winterfell,I think that Theon will hear from Bran trough the tree the location of one of that passages and allows Stannis and his man enter the castle ...

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11 minutes ago, Rodx said:

In the first book,in one of Bran's POV is show that Bran knows some secret passageways and shortcuts on Winterfell,I think that Theon will hear from Bran trough the tree the location of one of that passages and allows Stannis and his man enter the castle ...

That could happen but does Bloodraven really want stannis to win?

 

On 1/17/2017 at 9:15 PM, Maester Vargo said:

Whoa.  Just had a new theory pop into my head.  It seems a bit out there, but not as far out there as some theories I've seen and I need to share.    

Theon has Kings Blood.  He also has First Men blood, right?  The Greyjoys were first men, though they intermarried with Andals, but they still have first men blood.

And, we have seen evidence that Bloodraven (and, perhaps not knowing the endgame, Bran?) are trying to reach out to Stannis (and Theon), to execute him before a Weirwood (the Ravens crowing "Tree" "Tree" in the Theon sample chapter).   But why?  Because of the first men blood.  The king's blood.  But also because Theon is broken.  He's been mentally and physically disfigured.  He's a shadow of a man.  

I say that the Children and Bloodraven are in league, and the goal is to purge Westeros of men.  Furthermore, I think that it seems very likely that the Others were created by the Children as weapons against men (I would imagine the Others are created from First Men of power, but they have to be broken first.  Ruined). Finally, I think Bloodraven isn't strong enough to do this on his own, that's why he needed Bran.  Bran doesn't know Bloodraven's end game, but he has tremendous power, and is young and can be manipulated.  

The result here is that Stannis killing Theon before the Weirwood will cause him to arise again, as an Other.  Something with the Weirwood, combined with the Powers of Bloodraven and Bran will allow this magical transformation to occur. 

The first Other south of the Wall since the time of the Nights King.  This is where Winter really begins.  The winner of the battle of Ice doesn't matter, because the real winners are the Children, and Bloodraven.  Theon will be able to raise the corpses of the battle as Wights, and the Wights will march on Winterfell, which is no longer occupied by a Stark.  

This is far from a fully realized crackpot theory, but it seems crazy enough to be part of what's going to happen. 

The Theon chapter does leave us with the impression that he's going to die but how many time has George done this with characters. I think Theon character arc isn't finished yet as I think he will play an important part in the book and in possibly bringing down Euron.

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On 14.2.2017 at 11:46 PM, kissdbyfire said:

Yeah, and I think Theon might not fight it, making the whole process a lot easier. Remember in Dance how he thinks often about the horrible things he's done? And then there's the scene where he thinks that the OG know his name... And remember how Bran tries to calm Hodor down when he's skinchanging him? Hodor lacks the ability to understand what's going on, but if Theon realises what's going on, I think he may give himself over willingly, maybe to atone for some of his awful deeds. 

Theon has just reclaimed his identity/is in a process to reclaim his identity. The last thing he will do is give himself up to be a vessel right now. It would not be progress. The very thought makes me sick.

Him becoming a zombie also doesn't work for the same reason. Why did he have this arc leading up to two chapters being titled "Theon", just so that Theon then ceases to excist or have an agency? Completely destroying his whole story. 

BR will likely want to talk to him to implore on him to kill Euron and give him helpful tipps how. I'm guessing his eye(s) will have to be destryoed maybe all three, something like that. Or they just have to help Theon escape because they already know he will or could somehow do that or whatever they want done.

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