US Politics: Everyone's Manipulating Everyone

[OldGimletEye]

Just now, Tempra said:

No, they aren't.  Personally, I think democrats are better off pushing for automatic registration, a voting holiday, early voting initiatives, etc, then fighting the ID laws, which are wildly popular.

I have to say, I can't disagree with this.

I'm damn sure, that these voting ID laws were not done in good faith. But, as a political matter, it seems to be a hard fight to repeal Voter ID requirements. I think Democrats are going to have to figure out a way to outflank the Republican Party on this matter.

[Mexal]

15 minutes ago, Tempra said:

No, they aren't.  Personally, I think democrats are better off pushing for automatic registration, a voting holiday, early voting initiatives, etc, then fighting the ID laws, which are wildly popular.

I don't disagree with this either. The issue is, none of this will happen while Republicans control the Federal government and most State's. And without the Voting Rights Act, it's only going to get more restrictive before it gets better.

You are right though, all of those ideas would be better to push as Democrats.

[mormont]

57 minutes ago, Tempra said:

People who complain about the 'challenges' of obtaining ID cards by some individuals are really only criticizing the implementation process.  There are means of providing an ID card to anyone facing a reasonable challenge by extending office hours, having an option to obtain a card by mail, offering a no-cost option, etc.  Of course, those who oppose ID laws know that no amount of reasonable accommodation will encourage a certain unmotivated segment to obtain ID cards. 

That's irrelevant, since the people pushing these laws are not interested in offering any reasonable accommodations: quite the reverse.

[DMC]

14 minutes ago, Tempra said:

No, they aren't.  Personally, I think democrats are better off pushing for automatic registration, a voting holiday, early voting initiatives, etc, then fighting the ID laws, which are wildly popular.

That's exactly my point.  If the Democrats were able to just make automatic registration widespread, then the effect of voter ID laws would (eventually) be moot.  While anyone that can read polls can figure out it's politically better to emphasize the measures you mentioned, unfortunately Democrats have to combat voter suppression in the actual electoral environment they're given.

[LongRider]

4 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

I have to say, I can't disagree with this.

I'm damn sure, that these voting ID laws were not done in good faith. But, as a political matter, it seems to be a hard fight to repeal Voter ID requirements. I think Democrats are going to have to figure out a way to outflank the Republican Party on this matter.

Fighting ID laws matter tho, look what happened in North Carolina.  And now, Trump's DOJ has told the US that fighting unfair ID laws isn't an issue they are interested in going forward.  So will this signal to  R gov's to go ahead and enact even worse laws? 

here's some info on the NC law that was struck down:

Quote

"This law was passed with discriminatory intent. It targeted African-Americans 'with almost surgical precision' – imposing stringent ID requirements, reducing same-day registration and constraining out-of-precinct voting to place barriers between citizens and the ballot box. And it sent a message that contradicted some of the most basic principles of our democracy," Lynch said in a statement. "The ability of Americans to have a voice in the direction of their country – to have a fair and free opportunity to help write the story of this nation – is fundamental to who we are and who we aspire to be."

http://www.politico.com/story/2016/07/court-strikes-down-north-carolina-voter-id-law-226438

[Dr. Pepper]

4 minutes ago, dmc515 said:

That's exactly my point.  If the Democrats were able to just make automatic registration widespread, then the effect of voter ID laws would (eventually) be moot.  While anyone that can read polls can figure out it's politically better to emphasize the measures you mentioned, unfortunately Democrats have to combat voter suppression in the actual electoral environment they're given.

I don't understand.  Making automatic registration widespread doesn't address issues related to ID.  Barriers to obtaining ID would still exist. 

[OldGimletEye]

Just now, Nasty LongRider said:

Fighting ID laws matter tho, look what happened in North Carolina.  And now, Trump's DOJ has told the US that fighting unfair ID laws isn't an issue they are interested in going forward.  So will this signal to  R gov's to go ahead and enact even worse laws? 

Oh I don't think you should give up on fighting on all ID laws, particularly where the circumstances are outrageous.

And certainly, Democrats should be pointing out that getting ID's is often hard for poor people. And should try to correct that.

But, it would seem to me, fighting the idea of some kind of Voter ID requirement is akin to fixing the old bayonets and then engaging in a banzai bayonet charge.

I'm under no illusion what the Republican Party is trying to pull here, as we all are. Ultimately, I'm interesting in countering and blunting them. And I just think a stance of no Voter ID laws whatsoever is not going to work.

[Mexal]

5 minutes ago, Dr. Pepper said:

I don't understand.  Making automatic registration widespread doesn't address issues related to ID.  Barriers to obtaining ID would still exist. 

It's true but registration is a big issue too, especially in places like Texas. 

[LongRider]

Getting a drivers license with out proper docs can be a nightmare, one I recently went through myself.  My issue was a birth cert in Spanish because I was born on a military base is Puerto Rico.  When i moved to California from Nevada, Cali wouldn't accept it. Even though I had a current legal driver's license from Nevada, a social security card, a California voter registration card, and my state worker ID.  Nope, nope, and nope.  So I tried to get a passport as an ID to get a drivers license and they wouldn't go for it either.

I had to send away to Puerto Rico and pay to get a English language long form (ha ha) copy of my birth cert.  So this was a huge hassle to get a drivers license in one state, where it was easy to registrar to vote.

So if it was that difficult in liberal Cali, think about what barriers are there in states that don't want to give ID's to people that they don't want to vote anyway.  Doc's get lost, are in the 'wrong' language and other issues can make things very difficult for people to weave through the bureaucracy to register to vote.

[DMC]

7 minutes ago, Dr. Pepper said:

I don't understand.  Making automatic registration widespread doesn't address issues related to ID.  Barriers to obtaining ID would still exist. 

Because automatic registration gets at the heart of the problem - adding up to 50 million voters to the rolls.  The idea is this "automatic" enfranchisement will in turn lead to most of these eligible non-voters to participate - a notion that is supported by every empirical study I've seen.  Thus, voter ID laws would be moot because once in the system such individuals are more likely (in part because it's much easier for them to do so) to obtain valid IDs.

 

[OldGimletEye]

Just now, Nasty LongRider said:

snip

Well this is definitely a great example of why Voter ID laws can be so insidious.

[DMC]

12 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

Oh I don't think you should give up on fighting on all ID laws, particularly where the circumstances are outrageous.

And certainly, Democrats should be pointing out that getting ID's is often hard for poor people. And should try to correct that.

But, it would seem to me, fighting the idea of some kind of Voter ID requirement is akin to fixing the old bayonets and then engaging in a banzai bayonet charge.

It seems as if you're casting opposing voter ID laws and supporting measure to make voting easier as two separate strategy.  The fact is they're not - many state parties are concurrently fighting voter ID laws and pushing registration, early voting, etc. measures.  While the push for the latter continues, it doesn't mean you bend over on voter ID.

[LongRider]

3 minutes ago, The Great Unwashed said:

There are many counties in certain states that don't even have DMV locations, and other DMV locations may only be open a few days a month, or may only have truncated business hours. Sometimes it is difficulties with obtaining the prerequisite documents that are necessary for a photo ID to be issued. Many older Americans, especially black Americans, are less likely to have a birth certificate necessary to obtain an ID.

If one doesn't have the needed docs when at the DMV, then one has to get them, and that can be a long drawn out and sometimes costly process.  Plus, DMV's can demand proof of domicile, ie; that one is living where one says they are, like rent receipts or a utility bill.  And if you don't have it at the time you need to get it and try again.  So getting the proper ID can be a nightmare.

[Dr. Pepper]

19 minutes ago, dmc515 said:

Because automatic registration gets at the heart of the problem - adding up to 50 million voters to the rolls.  The idea is this "automatic" enfranchisement will in turn lead to most of these eligible non-voters to participate - a notion that is supported by every empirical study I've seen.  Thus, voter ID laws would be moot because once in the system such individuals are more likely (in part because it's much easier for them to do so) to obtain valid IDs.

 

I'm just not seeing the connection.  Automatic registration is superb, but it still doesn't address the ID issue.  How are they more likely to obtain ID just because they are registered?  How is obtaining ID made easier due to being automatically registered?  Does auto registration come with auto ID and also somehow bypass all the barriers one might have to obtaining an ID?

 

[LongRider]

Just now, Dr. Pepper said:

I'm just not seeing the connection.  Automatic registration is superb, but it still doesn't address the ID issue.  How are they more likely to obtain ID just because they are registered?  How is obtaining ID made easier due to being automatically registered?  Does auto registration come with auto ID and also somehow bypass all the barriers one might have to obtaining an ID?

 

I don't think that dmc515 realizes that ID's will be checked at the polls.  That's the missing link.  ID's are checked at the polls and if one doesn't have the right ID, one can't vote.

[DMC]

12 minutes ago, The Great Unwashed said:

While I enthusiastically support automatic registration, I fail to see the connection with making that easier to obtain proper ID's. The issue with ID's is that, for a certain segment of the population, there are logistical impediments to obtaining one that don't go away if they're automatically registered to vote. 

There are many counties in certain states that don't even have DMV locations, and other DMV locations may only be open a few days a month, or may only have truncated business hours. Sometimes it is difficulties with obtaining the prerequisite documents that are necessary for a photo ID to be issued. Many older Americans, especially black Americans, are less likely to have a birth certificate necessary to obtain an ID.

Automatic registration makes it easier to obtain documents required in order to get virtually any state ID card.  Again, though, the main point is automatic registration will lead to widespread participation by the quarter of the eligible population that is currently not registered - subsequently subsuming the aggregate effects of voter ID laws on suppression.

I agree, however, with the intuition that many older Americans will still be unlikely to obtain an ID.  That's why I originally said "(eventually)."  The effect of automatic registration on increased participation is primarily among the younger electorate.  That's the idea because, after all, voting is a learned habit we develop early in life.

3 minutes ago, Dr. Pepper said:

I'm just not seeing the connection.  Automatic registration is superb, but it still doesn't address the ID issue.  How are they more likely to obtain ID just because they are registered?  How is obtaining ID made easier due to being automatically registered?  Does auto registration come with auto ID and also somehow bypass all the barriers one might have to obtaining an ID?

 

See above.

[BloodRider]

23 hours ago, Commodore said:

for some reason Rand provokes an intellectual schoolyard bully mentality to shun/ridicule her out of consideration at all

"Only idiots read this stuff. You're not an idiot are you?"

 

So mindlessly Procrustean.

[OldGimletEye]

Just now, dmc515 said:

It seems as if you're casting opposing voter ID laws and supporting measure to make voting easier as two separate strategy.  The fact is they're not - many state parties are concurrently fighting voter ID laws and pushing registration, early voting, etc. measures.  While the push for the latter continues, it doesn't mean you bend over on voter ID.

I'm pretty sure that Republican Party's idea of "Voter Fraud" is somebody going out and voting Democrat.

I understand this whole thing is really a bunch of made up bull. But given some of the polling data on this issue, it would seem to me that simply saying no Voter ID, under any circumstance, isn't a political winner. Not that I'm really thrilled about having to do this whole Kabuki Dance with the Republican Party. 

So yeah, I think hitting the Republican Party on both fronts, whittling away that the barriers to getting a "Voter ID" while expanding the ease of voting might be the right way to go.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

It needs to be pointed out, repeatedly, that voter ID laws are a solution to a problem that does not exist, and the net effect of these laws is to stop a handful of people from voting illegally while preventing millions of people from voting legally. 

[OldGimletEye]

Just now, Tywin et al. said:

It needs to be pointed out, repeatedly, that voter ID laws are a solution to a problem that does not exist, and the net effect of these laws is to stop a handful of people from voting illegally while preventing millions of people from voting legally. 

Oh, I agree and it's unfortunate we have to play games over a non-issue.