Why is Jon Snow the favourite Stark (usually)?

[Luddagain]

Ophalesion

Sorry but you have a mythical view of feudal times. The various Queens and noble ladies were expected to interact regularly with royal bastards. Mostly they were at court so they were amongst many people etc, but still the bastards WERE in plain sight.

Think about the wife of John of Lancaster whose hubby lived openly with the former governess Katherine Swynford. She was the love of his life and he married her eventually and legitimised his five or so bastards.  It is from these royal bastards that the current British monarchs descend.

Owen Glendower the Welsh rebel and noblemen kept about 10 bastards daughters in his household - he may have fostered the sons as as that was tradition.

[Philokles]

1 hour ago, Orphalesion said:

Catelyn didn't emotionally and physically abuse Arya into becoming a lady unlike Randall did with Sam.

She just let Septa Mordane emotionally abuse Arya instead.

There was no malice, but Cat was a pretty poor mother to Arya. If she had shown half as much discretion as she did to Bran with his climbing to her daughter, then Arya would have responded so much better. It is strange as Cat is hardly the model submissive Westerosi woman that she was intent in forcing Arya to become.

[Luddagain]

Most people hate Sansa because in her first few chapter rather nasty little girl - not evil or anything just a typical mean 11 year old.  Think how she treated Arya (along with Jeyne Poole - yes common sisterly squabbling but not endearing). Obviously both Jon and Arya saw her as the family sneak. Her behaviour at re lady and Joffrey was cowardly. Again she was just a child so not really unexpected. She was definitely growing in wisdom and courage as she stayed in KL

the most troubling aspects about Sansa is her behaviour as Alayne. Will she tolerate the murder of sweet robin? this will be her make or break moment.

[Luddagain]

I realise that many hate Jon because he is the predicable "hero" stereotype, but other than perhaps being too good I am not sure why people dislike him or find him dull.

Finding the pubs was a pretty good moment as was giving Arya needle. Helping Sam was great, along with killing the wight.

I suspect a lot of people actually like the bad guys Jaime, Gerald Dayne etc. Like Dany and young girls generally  they prefer fire to mud.

[Protagoras]

Because Jon is "the stereotypical hero" from every fantasy novel ever written. Like Harry Potter he comes of as the underdog with no power or influence. The readers are more or less siding with him there and then. He is treated worse than his siblings and we are supposed to feel for him when evil Catelyn treats him with scorn, something she is 100% correct in doing (as several posters already have explained). He has no bad qualities (or rather he do, but those qualities like putting your nose in other people´s business and a "always know best" attitudes are seen as positive qualities by everyone), but is progressive and hits right between honourable and pragmatic. 

At the wall his opponents are Allister Thorne who acts as an evil adversary for him. His is bad and incompetent at his job and we like (or at least some do) that Jon stand up to him and undermines his authority which we see as good. Already we see the same thread as we have seen in many shitty fantasy stories: The Hero is special and know what is wrong and what is right. And everyone who disagrees are evil or misunderstood. And he is horribly mistreated too, despite being the bestest person ever, that he is not made a ranger (The HORROR!) But some people recognizes him for what he is - he is given a valyrian steel that Tywin Lannister would do anything for (The amount of gold the Mormonts would get would be staggering and instead they just give it to Jon because Joer likes him), just because he did his job and helped his boss. Truly a fair reward - and now he has his magical sword. He also have his buddies, who supports him during all his hardships - a five man band if you will. Oh, and despite not getting to be a ranger, he is handpicked by Qhorin - thereby giving him what he wanted regardless. But we are still supposed to feel sorry for Jon over this mistreatment. 

Now, not only is he very perceptive, but strangely enough he hold very modern ideas and looks unlogically decent in comparison with the setting. He also cares very, very much - protecting weaker people and stands up against "bad people" (basically people which he doesn´t like) and somehow always comes out of unscathed, instead of minding his own business. Like those bad superhero shows there are seldom any consequences. Jon refuses to kill the old man and get saved by Summer. He is shot - an injury with no later relevance what-so-ever. He let the wilding enemy run away and is not punished. He escapes - and are not punished for it. And he wins the Lord Commander title due to general awesomeness (more of this later). In general, Jon stand up for himself and for what he believe is right - which is really easy to do if you never suffer for it (again, compare with modern superhero shows that claim to be gritty like Daredevil. Never any lasting consequence) Not like Robb who made a choice and died because of it, oh no. A Jon-character is rather say, rescued by Stannis from suffering from his choice of killing Mance. We don´t want our hero to bear the consequences of cowardly stabbing Mance in his own tent - do we? And the second book shows Jon ignoring his own needs again and help his true brothers against the wildlings. What a self-sacrificing guy. We just MUST cheer for him, right? Right?

As we can see, hero-people like Jon are also always given second chances. In fact, its very surprising that the world is so cruel to him that he doesn´t get everything he wants (not that he wants anything, oh no - it must be given to him because due to his great character he is completely self-sacrificing and would never search achievement for himself) yet somehow always cover for him when needed. And other people will insist that he, due to his awesomeness he should be given "the power", something he reluctantly gets in the third book when he is, by no actions from himself, chosen as compromise candidate (by people who fail to understand what a compromise candidate is) to be Lord commander. Despite being in such hardships and all bad people that somehow only exist for screwing with poor Jon, he is still acknowledged far beyond a logical point by other "good guys" and the plot shifts to adapt to his needs. And that make everything he gets a feeling of "unearned" because showing ambition would make him feel less decent, but somehow - like a fairytale, he should still get those rewards to make him be seen as special and humble at the same time. Because god forbid if his morals would be compromised. 

I think people liking Jon either fail to understand Westeros, likes the same storyline over and over again or has in general not read that many fantasy novels. The readers like him because they are supposed to like him. It´s practially rammed down our throats (which is why others don´t like him). That´s why he is their favourite Stark and why other caracthers like Catelyn are demonized, despite acting exactly as they should act. 

And yes, his arc is very much improved in the latest book - but we all "know" that he will be back, despited getting stabbed. So the consequences still might be ignoring Jon, like they have for the series so far.  

[JoeMama]

I think Jon is a fan favorite, not necessarily because of the show, but because he's one of the rare characters in the series who tries to do the right thing simply for the sake of doing the right thing. I can't think of any comparable character in this regard. He's very much Ned's 'son' in this light. He's not as impetuous as Dany, nor as cynically politically calculating as Tyrion, etc etc. Making Jon maybe the closest thing we have to a real protagonist in a series full of 'gray' characters.

Personally I like Arya the most. What's not to love about an 11 y/o hardass with a major chip on her shoulder?

[Winter prince]

Jon is my favorite character in the book.  All characters in the series hit strokes of luck whether good or bad.  Jon is interesting in the same way Sansa is, we are watching them grow from annoying pre-teens/teenagers into hardened people ready to take on all challenges.  And his development is better than Dany (who is becoming more entitled and a little too blood of the dragon), Tyrion (mopey-where do whores go nonsense), Arya (crazy/murderer type).

Also, I don't hate Cat but her decisions make me sad. 

[the conquering bastard 25]

10 hours ago, Lollygag said:

Book Jon is very blah looking. Not ugly, but someone who wouldn't get a second look.

I haven't been around long enough to tell, but has book Jon's popularity increased because of Kit?

I dont know about that started the series because of the show but i do know this Kit Harrington is Gorgeous...so if hes book Jon's counterpart book Jon's a stud as well

[Winter's Cold]

This quote gives key insight into the Stark family dynamics.

Quote

 

Suddenly Arya remembered the crypts at Winterfell. They were a lot scarier than this place, she told herself. She’d been just a little girl the first time she saw them. Her brother Robb had taken them down, her and Sansa and baby Bran, who’d been no bigger than Rickon was now. They’d only had one candle between them, and Bran’s eyes had gotten as big as saucers as he stared at the stone faces of the Kings of Winter, with their wolves at their feet and their iron swords across their laps.

Robb took them all the way down to the end, past Grandfather and Brandon and Lyanna, to show them their own tombs. Sansa kept looking at the stubby little candle, anxious that it might go out. Old Nan had told her there were spiders down here, and rats as big as dogs. Robb smiled when she said that. “There are worse things than spiders and rats,” he whispered. “This is where the dead walk.” That was when they heard the sound, low and deep and shivery. Baby Bran had clutched at Arya’s hand.

When the spirit stepped out of the open tomb, pale white and moaning for blood, Sansa ran shrieking for the stairs, and Bran wrapped himself around Robb’s leg, sobbing. Arya stood her ground and gave the spirit a punch. It was only Jon, covered with flour. “You stupid,” she told him, “you scared the baby,” but Jon and Robb just laughed and laughed, and pretty soon Bran and Arya were laughing too.

 

Bran holds onto Robb for support.

Sansa runs abandoning her other family members.

Arya attacks instead and tries to protect her other family members.

This difference in behavior is also the reason that many Stark fans would place Arya above Sansa in terms of likability. 

It's clear in this quote that while Jon is a bastard and doesn't have the Stark name, it is Sansa who is the black sheep of the family.

Later in the story Jon Snow may gain the Stark name (Robb's Will) while Sansa loses it through marriage (Lannister marriage, possible Arryn marriage).

Jon Snow is probably the favored Stark character because he is viewed as the de facto head of the Stark family. A role that none of the other Stark children can fill. He is our replacement for Ned Stark, one of the most beloved characters in the story.

[a black swan]

5 hours ago, Luddagain said:

Most people hate Sansa because in her first few chapter rather nasty little girl - not evil or anything just a typical mean 11 year old.  Think how she treated Arya (along with Jeyne Poole - yes common sisterly squabbling but not endearing). Obviously both Jon and Arya saw her as the family sneak. Her behaviour at re lady and Joffrey was cowardly. Again she was just a child so not really unexpected. She was definitely growing in wisdom and courage as she stayed in KL

the most troubling aspects about Sansa is her behaviour as Alayne. Will she tolerate the murder of sweet robin? this will be her make or break moment.

Oh yeah, the "Don't tell Sansa!" thing that Jon & Arya say together was telling. I wonder if it's something that comes into play later on? Trust issues.

[khal drogon]

5 hours ago, Luddagain said:

khal drogon

Catelyn II as they are discussing leaving Winterfell and she refuses to keep Jon. I am doing a reread and just noted it.

Yes. But you have taken it out of context. They were talking about taking Jon to KL and Ned talks about Cersei killing bastards and Cat still wants Jon out of her sight so Ned says that. It isn't any indicator of how Cat had treated Jon in the past. For that you have to take the author's own words that Cat being cruel to Jon is an one time event.

[JonSnow4President]

6 hours ago, Horse of Kent said:

She just let Septa Mordane emotionally abuse Arya instead.

There was no malice, but Cat was a pretty poor mother to Arya. If she had shown half as much discretion as she did to Bran with his climbing to her daughter, then Arya would have responded so much better. It is strange as Cat is hardly the model submissive Westerosi woman that she was intent in forcing Arya to become.

It's not strange at all.  Catelyn is a textbook case for how women could wield power within the confines of the system.  She is trying to educate Arya to behave like a lady so that she can succeed in that society as well. 

[khal drogon]

5 hours ago, Luddagain said:

I realise that many hate Jon because he is the predicable "hero" stereotype, but other than perhaps being too good I am not sure why people dislike him or find him dull.

Finding the pubs was a pretty good moment as was giving Arya needle. Helping Sam was great, along with killing the wight.

I suspect a lot of people actually like the bad guys Jaime, Gerald Dayne etc. Like Dany and young girls generally  they prefer fire to mud.

I dislike him because the story often beats me in the head saying that he is the protagonist which takes me out of immersion. Protogoras covered most of those points wonderfully. He is dull because he doesn't learn his lessons the hard way. Everywhere he gets a mentor type guys who teaches him things from Mormont to Mance. He doesn't struggle a lot in general. 

I also dislike the Others storyline which I find one of the weakest parts of the series which naturally decreased my interest in that part of the story. 

People like Stannis and Jaime are not commonly found in fantasies and that interests people more.

[Winter prince]

Just now, khal drogon said:

 

People like Stannis and Jaime are not commonly found in fantasies and that interests people more.

I think it interests some people more but not all.  I'm not into Jaime's arc at all, don't hate the POV or character, I just don't find a lot of interest in it.  Maybe I just see a lot of similarities with Jon and how my military career has gone so I can identify with him more

[black_hart]

5 hours ago, Luddagain said:

the most troubling aspects about Sansa is her behaviour as Alayne. Will she tolerate the murder of sweet robin? this will be her make or break moment.

She started a drive to give him his own kingsguard. If anything fear for Harry.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

8 hours ago, Orphalesion said:

Not to excuse that, but Marillion did attempt to rape her not long before that.

Arya meanwhile straight up murdered a singer for the crime of wishing to make a better life for himself.

Seems a tiny bit worse to me.

Uh, no. For the crime of deserting the Night's Watch. Nothing wrong with wanting to make a better life for yourself, but if you've sworn a vow of lifelong service and you break it, knowing that breaking it means anybody technically can kill you with no repercussions, then well anyone can kill you with no repercussions.

If he'd just been a singer, that would be one thing, but he wasn't. If you desert the Night's Watch your life is forfeit and there is no way Dareon didn't know that. He just didn't expect anyone in Essos to know it or do anything about it.

[Philokles]

16 minutes ago, JonSnow4President said:

It's not strange at all.  Catelyn is a textbook case for how women could wield power within the confines of the system.  She is trying to educate Arya to behave like a lady so that she can succeed in that society as well. 

Nothing Septa Mordane teaches Arya is to show her how she can use the system to her advantage. All it says is 'conform or else.' Right the way from her being the bogeyman she uses to keep Sansa in line, down to not even noticing that she is left handed. As I said, Arya would have responded well to someone showing her that you can be both a lady and maintain agency - you just need to look at how well she gets on with Ravella Swann. 

[a black swan]

1 minute ago, Horse of Kent said:

Nothing Septa Mordane teaches Arya is to show her how she can use the system to her advantage. All it says is 'conform or else.' Right the way from her being the bogeyman she uses to keep Sansa in line, down to not even noticing that she is left handed. As I said, Arya would have responded well to someone showing her that you can be both a lady and maintain agency - you just need to look at how well she gets on with Ravella Swann. 

So true! Arya thinks she could wear a dress, do her needlework and act like a lady for Ravella who seemed to really care for her. All it took was some genuine caring from Ravella and it really had an impact on Arya. I think we're likely to see more of that continue in the next book when and if Arya takes some lessons from another female figure such as the Black Pearl - someone she already seems to really admire. 

[Lady Blizzardborn]

4 minutes ago, Horse of Kent said:

Nothing Septa Mordane teaches Arya is to show her how she can use the system to her advantage. All it says is 'conform or else.' Right the way from her being the bogeyman she uses to keep Sansa in line, down to not even noticing that she is left handed. As I said, Arya would have responded well to someone showing her that you can be both a lady and maintain agency - you just need to look at how well she gets on with Ravella Swann. 

Yes but there probably weren't a lot of Septas like Ravella Swann. Arya needed a different approach in a system that didn't offer one. Catelyn just didn't know what to do with her, and you can bet that Septa Mordane never gave any bad reports about herself. Arya might in time have learned how to communicate in a way that clued her mother in to the problems, but part of what she's up against is perfect-older-sister-syndrome, and that still exists even in societies that encourage individualism. There's always a standard, and always people who don't meet it.

[JonSnow4President]

11 minutes ago, Horse of Kent said:

Nothing Septa Mordane teaches Arya is to show her how she can use the system to her advantage. All it says is 'conform or else.' Right the way from her being the bogeyman she uses to keep Sansa in line, down to not even noticing that she is left handed. As I said, Arya would have responded well to someone showing her that you can be both a lady and maintain agency - you just need to look at how well she gets on with Ravella Swann. 

I'm not arguing Septa Mordane was effective at all.  I'm merely pointing out that Catelyn very much acted like a "proper" Lady, so it isn't "strange" that Catelyn isn't receptive to Arya not acting like a Lady.