Why is Jon Snow the favourite Stark (usually)?

[winter daughter]

He is brave, honorable and brooding.

and he thinks he is a bastard by a common whore while he is one of the last Targaryens.

 

1 hour ago, Winter's Cold said:

This quote gives key insight into the Stark family dynamics.

It's really interesting just how much Sansa has changed as a character.

 

50 minutes ago, DutchArya said:

Oh yeah, the "Don't tell Sansa!" thing that Jon & Arya say together was telling. I wonder if it's something that comes into play later on? Trust issues.

I think it has already played out in the first book. Ned shared his plan with the girls and Sansa told Cersei about it.

 

6 minutes ago, Horse of Kent said:

Nothing Septa Mordane teaches Arya is to show her how she can use the system to her advantage.

Septa Mordane was definitely the worst teacher for the girls. I blame her more than the others for the the rift between the sisters, Sansa's naivety and Arya's low self esteem.

[Renly's Banana]

6 hours ago, Horse of Kent said:

She just let Septa Mordane emotionally abuse Arya instead.

There was no malice, but Cat was a pretty poor mother to Arya. If she had shown half as much discretion as she did to Bran with his climbing to her daughter, then Arya would have responded so much better. It is strange as Cat is hardly the model submissive Westerosi woman that she was intent in forcing Arya to become.

Excuse me, where do we see Catelyn telling the septa to "abuse" Arya? When do we even see Septa Mordane "emotionally abusing" Arya?

Catelyn is a woman who very much knows what her roles and limitations are. She wants Arya to be a proper lady because that is what is valued in their society. Telling your child to shape up and be polite is not abuse, it's looking out for their best interests. Something every parent SHOULD do even in our world. The worst thing Mordane ever did to Arya was.. what? Tell her to do her needlework? Tell her she's not as polite as her sister? 

Everything Cat did she did for her family. She's by far one of the more human and complex characters in the entire series. Some people judge her as being reckless or traitorous cause she did stuff like release Jaime, but empathy is key. If your children were being held hostage and were in danger, you'd do anything in your power to save them -- the children she supposedly hates and/or pits against each other.

also lol @ the frey apologists saying she's a monster cause she slit jinglebells' throat. Wow Cat you're just the worst character nobody else has done anything as bad

[Makk]

Robb and Arya were my favorite Starks for the first 3 books. I was pretty neutral on Jon until book 5 when he became one of my 3 favorite characters in the entire story as his arc became a lot more interesting when he actually had the power to make decisions. That's very important to me for who I like the most, I don't tend to like characters that don't make their own decisions. He also obviously got a lot more chapters than any other Stark recently and that helps. Hopefully Arya will get a bit more agency back.

[Philokles]

38 minutes ago, DutchArya said:

So true! Arya thinks she could wear a dress, do her needlework and act like a lady for Ravella who seemed to really care for her. All it took was some genuine caring from Ravella and it really had an impact on Arya. I think we're likely to see more of that continue in the next book when and if Arya takes some lessons from another female figure such as the Black Pearl - someone she already seems to really admire. 

I completely agree. I wouldn't be surprised to see one of her apprenticeships be with a courtesan.

 

37 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Yes but there probably weren't a lot of Septas like Ravella Swann. Arya needed a different approach in a system that didn't offer one. Catelyn just didn't know what to do with her, and you can bet that Septa Mordane never gave any bad reports about herself. Arya might in time have learned how to communicate in a way that clued her mother in to the problems, but part of what she's up against is perfect-older-sister-syndrome, and that still exists even in societies that encourage individualism. There's always a standard, and always people who don't meet it.

Whoever was in charge of Margaery's tuition did a good job of moulding a young woman capable of being a lady when required, but also having further interests such as riding and hawking. I don't believe Cat was detached enough to not see how badly her daughter was coping under Mordane. She just must have not considered that there were better alternatives.

 

29 minutes ago, JonSnow4President said:

I'm not arguing Septa Mordane was effective at all.  I'm merely pointing out that Catelyn very much acted like a "proper" Lady, so it isn't "strange" that Catelyn isn't receptive to Arya not acting like a Lady.  

Cat may have acted that way most the time, and possibly even internalised the role, but I think at heart she was more independent minded. Even so, she still decided to travel personally to KL and to kidnap Tyrion - two incredibly bold moves for a traditional lady. Likewise, I think that LS's character is an extreme version of parts of her living personality.

 

21 minutes ago, winter daughter said:

Septa Mordane was definitely the worst teacher for the girls. I blame her more than the others for the the rift between the sisters, Sansa's naivety and Arya's low self esteem.

I fully agree with this. The further back the memories of their childhood go, the closer Arya and Sansa seem to be. In AGOT, Jeyne and Sansa see Mordane's attitude to Arya as validation for their bullying.

[winter daughter]

2 minutes ago, Horse of Kent said:

I fully agree with this. The further back the memories of their childhood go, the closer Arya and Sansa seem to be. In AGOT, Jeyne and Sansa see Mordane's attitude to Arya as validation for their bullying.

Exactly.

Quote

The septa was horror-struck. "A lady does not discuss such things over her porridge. Where are your courtesies, Sansa? I swear, of late you've been near as bad as your sister."

Every time I read this I want to shout at her to stop. I think if it wasn't for her and her stupid comparisons Sansa and Arya (despite all their differences) could get along very well.

[Philokles]

33 minutes ago, Renly's Banana said:

Excuse me, where do we see Catelyn telling the septa to "abuse" Arya?

You do not seem to understand the word 'let.' It means that Cat does not necessarily tell Mordane to emotionally abuse Arya, just that she does not step in to prevent it happening.

 

33 minutes ago, Renly's Banana said:

When do we even see Septa Mordane "emotionally abusing" Arya?

• When she picks on her for talking instead of Jeyne and Sansa
• When she criticises Arya for sewing crooked stitches -  a situation totally her fault for not realising that she is left handed - but does not care that Myrcella's are also bad
• When her standard admonishment for Sansa is that she it turning into her sister - thereby reinforcing the idea that she is the epitome of everything bad and tacitly endorsing her and Jeyne's bullying

Want any more?

 

33 minutes ago, Renly's Banana said:

Catelyn is a woman who very much knows what her roles and limitations are. She wants Arya to be a proper lady because that is what is valued in their society. Telling your child to shape up and be polite is not abuse, it's looking out for their best interests. Something every parent SHOULD do even in our world.

Crushing any individuality out of Arya is not good for her. Teaching her how she can both be herself and meet society's expectations is. It is not like she is outrightly opposed to femininity - she even wishes that she had Sansa's grace and ability to please Mordane - so would be a willing student if treated in a humane manner. The first few people to treat her properly find a hard-working girl with a good attitude.

 

33 minutes ago, Renly's Banana said:

The worst thing Mordane ever did to Arya was.. what? Tell her to do her needlework? Tell her she's not as polite as her sister?

Leaving her feeling so unloved, out of place and devoid of self-esteem that she wonders whether her mother even wants her back would be my choice.

[Renly's Banana]

@Horse of Kent

I think you're seriously blowing this out of proportion. Very little in-text suggests Arya has been scarred or traumatized by Mordane or her mother. Mordane is very strict and at times hypocritical, that's true, but none of it is out of order or meant to harm the girls. This treatment and education is no different than what Cersei or Catelyn or even Brienne would have been put through. Now, whether or not these women are "healthy" models of this form of education is another disputable topic for a different time, but my point stands: Arya is not hated or picked on by her mother. Her rivalry with Sansa stems more from their very different personalities than them being pitted against one another. It's really not as overdramatic and cruel as you're making it out to be.

Also you seem to be overlooking or forgetting WHY Arya thinks her mother wouldn't want her back. It's not because she thinks Cat is mean or hates her, it's because she feels guilt over having killed people. A very normal thing any child of 10 would think. 

[Luddagain]

The sort of situation where a child runs in tears from a school room after being humiliated by the teacher in front of all the others is cruel and would never be tolerated in a classroom today. It shows extreme trauma for a child to do this. the child thinks she is adopted - common enough when a child feels unloved and undervalued.

Arya is a clever child willing to soak up knowledge and training from anyone she respects and feels likes her. Jon and Ned obviously and we can guess most of the men at Winterfell and Maester Luwin. Also Syrio, Yoren, even Gendry, Lady Smallwood, Sandor, the guys on the boat, the various fish mongers and of course the waif and KoG.  However neither Septa Mordane, Sansa or Cate;lyn seem to have the knack of wanting her to learn.

[KingMance]

Arya is probably my favorite Stark, but Jon is a very close 2nd. Sansa and Robb are more Tully than Stark, and I'm not a big Catelyn fan. Bran is 8 and therefore hard to relate to. Rickon isn't even real. He's said maybe 50 words in 5 books. 

Btw, I don't dislike the Tullys. Brynden and Edmure are OK with me. But Catelyn and Lisa are garbage. 

[Philokles]

27 minutes ago, Renly's Banana said:

@Horse of Kent

I think you're seriously blowing this out of proportion. Very little in-text suggests Arya has been scarred or traumatized by Mordane or her mother.

Her almost total lack of self confidence seems directly attributable to Mordane's approach.

 

27 minutes ago, Renly's Banana said:

Mordane is very strict and at times hypocritical, that's true, but none of it is out of order or meant to harm the girls. This treatment and education is no different than what Cersei or Catelyn or even Brienne would have been put through. Now, whether or not these women are "healthy" models of this form of education is another disputable topic for a different time, but my point stands: Arya is not hated or picked on by her mother.

I never alleged that Cat didn't love Arya unconditionally, just that her poor parenting decisions left Arya doubting.

Brienne and Cat were given considerably more leeway by their parents, but Mordane's approach goes beyond strictness. Her un-evenhandedness in criticising Arya for things the golden child Sansa got away with borders on malicious.

 

27 minutes ago, Renly's Banana said:

Also you seem to be overlooking or forgetting WHY Arya thinks her mother wouldn't want her back. It's not because she thinks Cat is mean or hates her, it's because she feels guilt over having killed people. A very normal thing any child of 10 would think. 

Yet she knows for certain that Jon would love her regardless.

 

Though this has focused mainly on Arya, Mordane's style damaged Sansa just as much. It is little surprise that she becomes an infinitely more likeable character when away from the Septa's influence.

[Praetor Xyn]

11 hours ago, Luddagain said:

I fail to see how anyone could list Catelyn as a favourite Stark - at least from the books - the show is more sympathetic.

In Ned's words to her "how can you be so cruel" we see the real lady.

Sure she loved her kids but not wisely - she allowed Septa Mordane freedom to disparage and hurt Arya, she probably personally showed favouritism to Sansa and Bran - something no mother should do. She rather neglected little Rickon in her grief for Bran - again while understandable shows her as quite a flawed character.

Her judgements were flawed and she was easily manipulated by Littlefinger.

Her behaviour was treacherous when she let out Jaime and had she been a man she would have lost her head.

She slit Jinglebells throat and became a vengeful demon as Lady Stoneheart. We see where Arya got her personality.

The Starks are on the North and she hates the north. She fears the heart tree and the cold.

 

Obviously I put her bottom of my list

 

Ned also gave her a list of things to do when she returned to Winterfell. She didn't do any of them, nor did she relay a single one of them to Robb. She told Robb to be wary of Theon, but if she'd told him Ned said to watch Theon I doubt Robb would have used him as an envoy.

[winter daughter]

8 hours ago, Luddagain said:

the most troubling aspects about Sansa is her behaviour as Alayne. Will she tolerate the murder of sweet robin? this will be her make or break moment.

Littlefinger needs SR alive for at least one year. so even if he has a plan to kill the boy I think it's not going to happen anytime soon.

And I agree that Sansa has to make a big decision in the future... Littlefinger is her mentor/villain and her learning phase is coming to it's end. She has been a pawn for so long, it's time for her to finally turn into a player.

[Renly's Banana]

@Horse of Kent

I think it's also important to keep in mind the cultural differences between Catelyn/Mordane and their setting. Arya and Sansa are stuck between two worlds. Catelyn (and by extension Mordane) are bringing the strict and proper discipline of the south with them. In their eyes, needlework is important. Being a proper and polite lady is important. A strict hand to mold you is essential. Meanwhile, the people of Winterfell seem to be encouraging Arya's "wild" instincts. Jon and Robb don't seem to care that she's sword playing with them or running around pelting Sansa with snowballs. Ned doesn't care in any meaningful way; hell, he just sees Lyanna in Arya and his eyes mist over. So in that sense, yes, I would argue that Arya was born into a very unfortunate and hard environment. 

[Orphalesion]

3 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Uh, no. For the crime of deserting the Night's Watch. Nothing wrong with wanting to make a better life for yourself, but if you've sworn a vow of lifelong service and you break it, knowing that breaking it means anybody technically can kill you with no repercussions, then well anyone can kill you with no repercussions.

If he'd just been a singer, that would be one thing, but he wasn't. If you desert the Night's Watch your life is forfeit and there is no way Dareon didn't know that. He just didn't expect anyone in Essos to know it or do anything about it.

He was forced to take that (completely ridiculous) vow for a crime he didn't commit. A vow you take under duress is not a true vow imho. And he wasn't in Westeros anymore so he was beyond the reach of said vow.

All he did was trying to make a better life for himself.

[Winter's Cold]

25 minutes ago, Renly's Banana said:

@Horse of Kent

I think it's also important to keep in mind the cultural differences between Catelyn/Mordane and their setting. Arya and Sansa are stuck between two worlds. Catelyn (and by extension Mordane) are bringing the strict and proper discipline of the south with them. In their eyes, needlework is important. Being a proper and polite lady is important. A strict hand to mold you is essential. Meanwhile, the people of Winterfell seem to be encouraging Arya's "wild" instincts. Jon and Robb don't seem to care that she's sword playing with them or running around pelting Sansa with snowballs. Ned doesn't care in any meaningful way; hell, he just sees Lyanna in Arya and his eyes mist over. So in that sense, yes, I would argue that Arya was born into a very unfortunate and hard environment. 

Arya wanted to be raised as a lady of the North while Septa Mordayne and Catelyn wanted to raise her as a lady of the South like her sister Sansa.

A lot of the other Northern noblewomen we meet in the books also behave very similarly to Arya. We have Alysane Mormont and Meera Reed, both warrior women who have fought in battle. There's Lyanna Mormont and Wylla Manderly, noble girls of Arya's age who are quite independent minded and not afraid to state their opinions. And finally there's Alys Karstark, who Melisandre mistakes for Arya, a girl who escapes from captivity and a forced marriage on her own. 

Arya Stark is a normal Northern noblewoman. Catelyn and Septa Mordayne are the outsiders.

 

[Makk]

5 minutes ago, Orphalesion said:

He was forced to take that (completely ridiculous) vow for a crime he didn't commit. A vow you take under duress is not a true vow imho. And he wasn't in Westeros anymore so he was beyond the reach of said vow.

All he did was trying to make a better life for himself.

He took gold that wasn't his leaving his comrades stuck in Bravos thinking he was coming back. That was pretty lousy. We don't know whether he committed rape, quite possibly not but he did sleep with the daughter of a lord so he knew he was playing with fire.

[Luddagain]

The real test of each of the starks (and indeed all the other characters) is the number of genuinely kind or selfless acts undertaken by each i guess balanced by the number of selfish acts that lead to death or hurt.

For Catelyn i can think of only one genuinely selfless act she ever took - to beg for the life of Baelish. Every other action she takes is driven by goals of supporting HER family but at the expense of others. As Lady Stark we do not see her being particularly bad or grasping for her family, although we do seeing her generally putting her children ahead of Ned (not that I blame her for this). However as Lady Stoneheart she is NOT a nice lady. Vengeance is perhaps understandable, BUT killing children is not and she was preparing to hang Podrick a boy of just 11.

Compare this with Ned who sacrificed himself for Robert (he knew going to KL was his death). He gave Cersai and the children a chance to live and many other acts of kindness and selflessness  are hinted at in the book - even marrying Catelyn put duty ahead of his personal wishes.

Arya, for all her nasty vengeful murders has many selfless deeds or thoughts to her name - Mikka for whom she grieved, weasy, the three prisoners, Lommy, the men in the cages, Sandor (maybe) and the people she helped as Cat of the canals - even Sam. none of these was an act inspired by pushing her own agenda.

We do not see enough of Robb to know but somehow think he would be like Ned

Sansa at first shows little ability for any selfless actions and takes many that push forward her own agenda at the expense of others - mostly Arya and Ned. Only perhaps with Sandor has she shown real kindness. I expect and hope that she will show true courage and selflessness helping Sweet Robin but it is GRRM writing so who knows.

Jon on the other hand is so bloody selfless that it makes him seem saccharine and unbelievable. starting with the direwolves, then joining the NW, then giving Arya needle, helping Sam, running away to join Robb, saving Mormant, trying to save the  saving the wildings, shooting the burning "mance", rejecting Stannis's offer of Winterfell and finally his plan to rescue Arya..

[Winter's Cold]

13 minutes ago, Luddagain said:

Sansa at first shows little ability for any selfless actions and takes many that push forward her own agenda at the expense of others - mostly Arya and Ned. Only perhaps with Sandor has she shown real kindness. I expect and hope that she will show true courage and selflessness helping Sweet Robin but it is GRRM writing so who knows.

I do think that her attempt to save Dontos was also an act of kindness on her part. I believe that Sansa is a genuinely nice person at her core. However, she also is a coward who doesn't stand up to those in power if that would threaten her own interests. She will help Sweet Robin only if that decision either benefits her or doesn't threaten her interests. 

[Van Gogh]

I actually feel the opposite.  The Starks aren't on my list of favorite families.  I don't like Jon.  I don't find him worth reading.

My favorite families are as follows:

1. Martell
2. Dayne
3. Targaryen
4. Frey
5. Tyrell

[Renly's Banana]

1 hour ago, Winter's Cold said:

Arya wanted to be raised as a lady of the North while Septa Mordayne and Catelyn wanted to raise her as a lady of the South like her sister Sansa.

Arya Stark is a normal Northern noblewoman. Catelyn and Septa Mordayne are the outsiders.

I never disputed any of this. I'm just saying it's unfortunate that she's stuck between two cultures. Catelyn may be an "outsider" but her viewpoint is no less valid. 

30 minutes ago, Sybil Vane said:

I actually feel the opposite.  The Starks aren't on my list of favorite families.  I don't like Jon.  I don't find him worth reading.

You and me both. I don't know if it's cause we've read about so few of them or the fact that almost all their PoVs are children but that whole family is so uninteresting.