NBA 2017: Playoffs? Playoffs?!

[David Selig]

6 minutes ago, DunderMifflin said:

I don't know how much it's upping the talent pool. Scouting was already pretty advanced even in 92. People were aware who the best players in the world were then, just as they are today. The way I see it the international success of the nba has upped the talent pool in the rest of the world rather than foreign players raising the bar of the nba.

Basketball was nowhere near as popular internationally before Jordan became a global icon in the early 90s and the Dream Team inspired a whole generation of kids to try to become the next NBA superstar.

[DunderMifflin]

12 minutes ago, Maithanet said:

I'm not really sure what point you're making here.  Millions of additional athletes competing for the scarce 450 NBA roster spots means the overall level of athleticism will be higher.  There are definitely American players in the D league that would be on NBA rosters if there weren't over 100 international players in the league right now.  And the reason those D-league guys aren't on rosters is because they aren't good enough

That's not a point that's specific to foreign players in the nba though. Just the increase in population alone adds more possible competition. The D league guys still don't get the roster spot of an American born player that's better than them either. In both 92 and today teams look for the best players in the world regardless of where they were born. It's not like there were all these giannis antetokounmpo guys around in 1992 that never got notice due to not being in america. They just weren't there.

Quote

Yeah, although I don't know what you're saying by "ball the fuck out".  Is this some comment on European players not being physical?  Because I thought that argument died decades ago. 

 

[Jaime L]

Through the time Westbrook came back into the game in the 4th, he'd put up an immaculate, efficient 38/7/7 and was +11 in 33 minutes. But OKC was down 5 because in the 5 minutes he wasn't in the game OKC was -16. 

So Westbrook doesn't get his usual rest and is hurried back in the game. He has zero lift in his legs and goes an ugly 2/11 down the stretch though context is everything. 

Even in losing, impossible to watch that series and not conclude Westbrook was way more valuable than Harden. Not only that but it presented the strongest case for vindicating the principal critique that he's been an unprecedented ball hog that murders his team's flow. But after watching that game after game, I don't get what the other option is. Alex freaking Abrines bricking more 3's? Roberson trying to raise his 12% FT percentage for the series? 

Westbrook outplayed everyone Houston threw at him including his MVP rival. It's just in the 8 minutes each game he sat everything fell apart, every damn time. You can argue, as I have, that he doesn't make his teammates materially better. But this series indicates, more than anything, his teammates are a fucking disaster without him.

Weird to say in a matchup of MVP candidates that the one getting knocked out in 5 games is the clearer choice than ever, but here we are (or at least here I am.) 

 

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

Yea, even though OKC lost the series I feel vindicated. Because, the exact argument I've been making for Russel to be the MVP just played out in front of all of us. He's got a shite supporting cast and the arguments over usage are pointless, because he has to do what he does in order for them to have a chance. 

[Relic]

Yeah, the supporting cast question has been answered definitively, i think. On the other hand this series showed why you shouldnt give the MVP to a team that's going nowhere. As good as Russ has been, and as essential as he is to his team, how can you be the league's MVP if your team doesn't even make it to Game 6 of the first round? 

[Calibandar]

All valid points I think. Russ deserves it. But yes, he is a ball hog and I do think if he was on a good team, it would be better for that team if he were more a distributor and not racking up 45 points a game. But he's clearly not in that team, and I do not see the alternative to him trying to do it all himself. Oladipo and Roberson have 

In other news, fucking Clippers, wretched, cursed bunch. Blake Griffin's injury list as posted on the Ringer is staggering. His injury ruins it again for this team, and my bet.

 

[Relic]

1 hour ago, Calibandar said:

Blake Griffin's injury list as posted on the Ringer is staggering.

The list - "First, to his left leg:

sprained MCL,

broken kneecap,

meniscus tear,

partially torn quadriceps,

high ankle sprain,

knee bone bruise,

sprained knee,

and strained hamstring.

As for his right: He suffered torn cartilage in his right knee in college and underwent “minor” surgery on his right knee this season to remove “loose bodies.” Over the years, he’s suffered other miscellaneous injuries, like a back stress fracture, right-elbow staph infection, and broken right hand. We can now add bruised big right toe to the list."

[Tywin et al.]

4 hours ago, Relic said:

Yeah, the supporting cast question has been answered definitively, i think. On the other hand this series showed why you shouldnt give the MVP to a team that's going nowhere. As good as Russ has been, and as essential as he is to his team, how can you be the league's MVP if your team doesn't even make it to Game 6 of the first round? 

Eh, I'd normally agree, but RUss' supporting cast is so bad. How many wins would this team have if you replaced Russ with a league average PG? I think they'd be looking at a top three lottery pick. 

[Relic]

1 hour ago, Tywin et al. said:

Eh, I'd normally agree, but RUss' supporting cast is so bad. How many wins would this team have if you replaced Russ with a league average PG? I think they'd be looking at a top three lottery pick. 

I'm starting to think Leonard should get MVP. 

[DunderMifflin]

They might be better. I don't mean a better team but they'd probably play better than they showed in this series if they had the entire season to work on a Russ-less strategy.

 It's like they watched Russ ball hog and play like he's on a frenzied coke binge for 82 games. You can't then all of the sudden when you are getting killed in the playoffs say to those guys -ok NOW do something- even though you've been watching Russ all year.

That's another thing I like in an MVP, making your teammates better. Not making them look like trash.

[David Selig]

4 hours ago, Relic said:

Yeah, the supporting cast question has been answered definitively, i think. On the other hand this series showed why you shouldnt give the MVP to a team that's going nowhere. As good as Russ has been, and as essential as he is to his team, how can you be the league's MVP if your team doesn't even make it to Game 6 of the first round? 

I've always disliked this type of argument. It's a team sport after all and that's an individual award. Yeah, in basketball the impact of one player is bigger than in most other team sports, but still sometimes the teammates are just not good enough and the individual players shouldn't be punished for that.

In this specific case Kawhi and Harden were equally deserving as Russ IMO, maybe even slightly more, but I don't like the mentality of never giving the award to a player if his team is not a high seed and doesn't reach far in the playoffs no matter how bad the rest of the roster is and how poor a fit they are around the star.

[Tywin et al.]

3 minutes ago, Relic said:

I'm starting to think Leonard should get MVP. 

If only we cared about defense.

2 minutes ago, DunderMifflin said:

They might be better. It's like they watched Russ ball hog and play like he's on a frenzied coke binge for 82 games. You can't then all of the sudden when you are getting killed in the playoffs say to those guys -ok NOW do something- even though you've been watching Russ all year.

Whoa, careful dude. You're close to the JB24 danger zone. 

[DunderMifflin]

I think there is/should be responsibility on the mvp to make his teammates better. When you come out looking like a a superman but all your teammates look like hopeless scrubs then you've done something wrong imo. 

[Tywin et al.]

12 minutes ago, DunderMifflin said:

I think there is/should be responsibility on the mvp to make his teammates better. When you come out looking like a a superman but all your teammates look like hopeless scrubs then you've done something wrong imo. 

But they are scrubs. There's only two guys I'd want on that team outside of Russ, and they're a center that can be your 5th best starter and a guy who should be a backup SG. Everyone else is junk, with the exception of Kanter, though I wouldn't want him.

[DunderMifflin]

49 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

But they are scrubs. There's only two guys I'd want on that team outside of Russ, and they're a center that can be your 5th best starter and a guy who should be a backup SG. Everyone else is junk, with the exception of Kanter, though I wouldn't want him.

I dont think an mvp should tolerate that much scruberry on his squad. Stop stat padding and get the scrubs involved. They are nba players not high schoolers.

I'm thinking of Iversons MVP season. He was ballhogging but he was making straight junk players look legit. Russ took hero ball to a new level this season, he'll be rewarded with the mvp. I just don't think it's worthy. 1st round ko and somehow the supporting cast of junk players became even more junk in the postseason. 

 

[Fez]

54 minutes ago, David Selig said:

I've always disliked this type of argument. It's a team sport after all and that's an individual award. Yeah, in basketball the impact of one player is bigger than in most other team sports, but still sometimes the teammates are just not good enough and the individual players shouldn't be punished for that.

In this specific case Kawhi and Harden were equally deserving as Russ IMO, maybe even slightly more, but I don't like the mentality of never giving the award to a player if his team is not a high seed and doesn't reach far in the playoffs no matter how bad the rest of the roster is and how poor a fit they are around the star.

Not sure about that. In general, I don't think individual basketball players have as big an outcome on a game as quarterbacks in football or starting pitchers in baseball (I don't know enough about hockey to say one way or the other about how important goalies are). Obviously the great players do have a very large impact, but overall I think basketball is the most team-orientated of the big four. Which to me means that the individual-focused awards should consider how much better the team itself is with the individual player's contributions.

[Jaime L]

44 minutes ago, Relic said:

I'm starting to think Leonard should get MVP. 

Seems like most of the analytics minded/advanced stat type writers have Leonard as their MVP. I just can't get there.

Kawhi does literally everything well. The only MVP candidate who takes absolutely nothing off the table and contributes big time in every single area on the floor. But his stats are meh for an MVP candidate (25/5/3) and he did it playing a leisurely 33 MPG. And of course he didn't have to create offensively to near the degree of the other guys. Just keep the ball moving and make quick decisions. It meant he could be 100% at all times on the floor. Plus I'm convinced Pop is the most brilliant NBA coach of all time and even without Kawhi could fall out of bed and win 50 games. 

Contrast that to Westbrook who needed to go balls to the wall for 40 minutes a night and make an insane array of 4th quarter runs and last minute game winners, even against bad teams, for OKC to scratch out a 6th seed. I dunno, this series has was pretty eye-opening to me. Before the series I said they'd win 35-40 games without Westbrook. I think that's now more likely 25-30. 

[Tywin et al.]

17 minutes ago, DunderMifflin said:

I dont think an mvp should tolerate that much scruberry on his squad. Stop stat padding and get the scrubs involved. They are nba players not high schoolers.

I'm thinking of Iversons MVP season. He was ballhogging but he was making straight junk players look legit. Russ took hero ball to a new level this season, he'll be rewarded with the mvp. I just don't think it's worthy. 1st round ko and somehow the supporting cast of junk players became even more junk in the postseason. 

 

He was third in the league in assists during the season and first in the playoffs. What more do you want him to do?

[DunderMifflin]

3 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

He was third in the league in assists during the season and first in the playoffs. What more do you want him to do?

Move beyond the first round for starters. And win more regular season games.

If his assists make the teammates not be scrubs then problem solved. They aren't scrubs anymore.

 

[Proudfeet]

35 minutes ago, DunderMifflin said:

Move beyond the first round for starters. And win more regular season games.

If his assists make the teammates not be scrubs then problem solved. They aren't scrubs anymore.

 

Isn't that the coach's fault rather than his? I suspect if you put Carlisle in charge, they would look pretty decent.

40 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

He was third in the league in assists during the season and first in the playoffs. What more do you want him to do?

Do less. Let his team develop rather than have them stagnate and/or regress. Its not his fault though.