NBA Draft 2017: Sixers, Celtics and Will LaVar Ball Lose His Shit on National Television Edition

[Maithanet]

3 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Has Melo ever played with another All-Star?

 

Tyson Chandler was a reserve in 2013. 

Iverson was an All-Star in 2007 and 2008.  Billups was an All-Star in 2009 and 2010.  He was also third team All-NBA in 2009. 

[Jaime L]

8 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Has Melo ever played with another All-Star?

What Maith said. 

I will never weep tears for Melo on this front. He might've played with an All-Star in NY if he didn't force a trade that emptied the Knicks of all their talent. He also could've played with his fellow 2003 draft class superstars if he would've signed the same contract they did that allowed them to all opt out in 2010. Instead, he prioritized the extra year of contractual/lifestyle security. 

Sure can't entirely blame him for the shitshow that P-Jax ushered in fully...except, again, he forced his way onto a team that had been ragingly dysfunctional for a full decade before he got there. Every time his peers chose winning, he chose other things. 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

1 hour ago, Relic said:

The 2012 - 2013 NBA season was the last time Melo played within a real system, on a team that had same idea of what it was doing. They shot a record number of 3's that year and he averaged 38%, which is quite fine. The following year he was pretty hot from downtown, shooting 40%. And then Jackson came and the team turned into some Bizzaro Land 90's NBA team that played no defense.  

 

1 hour ago, briantw said:

Anyone who has watched both George and Melo play would know that Melo is the better shooter.  I don't care what the stats say.  On a team where he's not the first option, Melo would be getting open looks more often (probably constantly if he were on the Cavs) and his shooting percentage would be much higher.  

Melo in his prime was absolutely the better shooter, but that Melo is gone. And you guys are also underselling George. He was a top 5 player in the league before his leg snapped. And as to the bloded, same goes for George. Don't forget, his two best teammates were Roy Hibbert and Lance Stephenson.

[sperry]

Paul George was not a top 5 fucking player in the league. I mean let's stop with the hyperbole here.

[Maithanet]

3 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

 

He was a top 5 player in the league before his leg snapped. And as to the bloded, same goes for George. Don't forget, his two best teammates were Roy Hibbert and Lance Stephenson.

George was never a top 5 player.  He never made an All-NBA first or second team, and there are at least two small forwards who have been much better than him his entire career. 

You can't say those Pacers teams didn't have talent to go with George.  The best players around him on the 2011-2014 Pacers squads were David West and Roy Hibbert, and for at least a couple of years there those guys could really play.  Not to mention that team had a lot of depth, and was good enough to play close to .500 ball in 2014-15 after George got injured in the offseason. 

[briantw]

26 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Melo in his prime was absolutely the better shooter, but that Melo is gone. And you guys are also underselling George. He was a top 5 player in the league before his leg snapped. And as to the bloded, same goes for George. Don't forget, his two best teammates were Roy Hibbert and Lance Stephenson.

I think George is absolutely the better player.  I just think that Melo is the better shooter.

[Red Tiger]

1 hour ago, Maithanet said:

George was never a top 5 player.  He never made an All-NBA first or second team, and there are at least two small forwards who have been much better than him his entire career. 

You can't say those Pacers teams didn't have talent to go with George.  The best players around him on the 2011-2014 Pacers squads were David West and Roy Hibbert, and for at least a couple of years there those guys could really play.  Not to mention that team had a lot of depth, and was good enough to play close to .500 ball in 2014-15 after George got injured in the offseason. 

Yep. There was that time early on in the 2013-2014 season, but that lasted until the stripper thing.

[Jaime L]

37 minutes ago, Maithanet said:

You can't say those Pacers teams didn't have talent to go with George.  The best players around him on the 2011-2014 Pacers squads were David West and Roy Hibbert, and for at least a couple of years there those guys could really play.  Not to mention that team had a lot of depth, and was good enough to play close to .500 ball in 2014-15 after George got injured in the offseason. 

I can't believe you didn't mention Ian Mahimni. The $64m man. Not Kevin Durant, but the next best thing. 

[Maithanet]

4 minutes ago, Jaime L said:

I can't believe you didn't mention Ian Mahimni. The $64m man. Not Kevin Durant, but the next best thing. 

SHHH!  If you keep talking up Ian Mahimni, we aren't going to be able to resign him in 2020!  I don't know if DC could handle potentially losing Donald Trump and Ian Mahimni in just a six month span.

[briantw]

1 hour ago, Trebla said:

Yeah, because Irving had LBJ. Again, I think Harden can be both a lead guard AND play off the ball, especially since it sounds like he and Paul facilitated this trade. He knows who he is going to be playing with and what it means to his own game.

Even before Irving had LeBron on his team, his game was more that of a two-guard or a combo guard.  He's just not a guy who is going to play the pure point.  He's more akin to Kobe than to Chris Paul offensively.  He can pass, and he has great vision, but he almost always looks for his own shot first.  

Harden is much more of a playmaker and point guard.  Harden is probably second only to LeBron when it comes to playmaking as a wing player.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

1 hour ago, Maithanet said:

Tyson Chandler was a reserve in 2013. 

Iverson was an All-Star in 2007 and 2008.  Billups was an All-Star in 2009 and 2010.  He was also third team All-NBA in 2009. 

Thanks Maith! I meant to say with the Knicks because I knew he played with a few in Denver. 

1 hour ago, sperry said:

Paul George was not a top 5 fucking player in the league. I mean let's stop with the hyperbole here.

 

1 hour ago, Maithanet said:

George was never a top 5 player.  He never made an All-NBA first or second team, and there are at least two small forwards who have been much better than him his entire career. 

I could have sworn that he finished third or fourth in the MVP voting in the 2013-14 season, but he actually finished 9th. That year the Pacers started off 15-1 and he was named Eastern Conference Player of the Month, but his play dipped a bit as the season went on. So I will amend my previous statement and say he was a top 10ish player in the NBA the season before he broke his leg. 

[Red Tiger]

CP3....You poor bastard.

[Jaime L]

1 hour ago, Maithanet said:

SHHH!  If you keep talking up Ian Mahimni, we aren't going to be able to resign him in 2020!  I don't know if DC could handle potentially losing Donald Trump and Ian Mahimni in just a six month span.

I'll try to be better. I'm still coming down from the visceral thrill of watching him check into the game, the rare experience of the dozen or so he was able to play. Guarantees 6 pulse pounding minutes of him lumbering around the court, gamely deflecting John Wall passes and getting into floor slapfights with Jonas Jerebko.

[Trebla]

The Paul George convo leads me back to the Bulls because there have been similar debates on what Jimmy Butler is and what is his value. A lot of people really thought that the Bulls should have gotten a Hell of a lot more back for him when they traded him. That leads me to where is he in the league hierarchy. I've thought he's a terrific two-way player but he's not Kawhi Leonard let alone LeBron James. Is he a Top 10 player? Mmmm...don't think so. Is he a Top 15? Yeah, I'd say he's perhaps in 12-15 range. 

Should the Bulls have gotten more for the 12th or 13th best player in the league. Yeah, probably. They should have kept their own 1st round pick at least. But I also keep hearing that the league's GM's didn't think he was worth what the Bulls and Jimmy himself thought he was worth. Jimmy himself comports himself like he is a Top 5 talent yet he has completely faded down the stretch the last 3 seasons.  A big part of that has been that he's just worn down from the amount of minutes he's played (more on that in a bit) the last several seasons. But come crunch time in the playoffs he's been MIA. It was Derrick Rose not Jimmy who played big 3 seasons ago before both he and Jimmy quit in game 6 vs the Cavs because each wanted to be The Man. Rose moreso, though, and that was Tom Thibodeau's last game as coach for the Bulls.

This season the Bulls took an amazing 2-0 lead over the Celtics thanks to...Rajon Rondo, not Jimmy. Once Rondo went down to injury the Bulls completely folded. It's funny that it was Rondo because while he has been known as a coach killer, he was the one defending the team earlier in the season when Butler and Dwayne Wade threw the whole organization under the bus. And that right there is the one thing I'm surprised hasn't gotten more national play. The past 3 years Butler has bad mouthed teammates and coaches. The locker room split in Thibs' last season as Butler and Rose battled over who was the alpha dog on the team. He also stabbed Thibs' in the back when Gar/Pax undercut Thibs and basically told the team not to listen to the coach anymore because he would be gone after season was over. Gar/Pax would rue that enabling of Butler because he very quickly and publicly turned on the new coach Fred Hoiberg, saying he needed to "coach harder". 

Don't get me wrong, Gar Forman and John Paxson need to be fired and this rebuild will hopefully be completed by different executives. Gar Forman in particular is hopefully down to his last chance. Some people think the only reason he is still around is because his wife is BFF's with owner heir apparent Michael Reinsdorf's wife. But I'm actually happy Butler is gone and this team is now in full rebuild. They have spun their wheels the past several seasons and it was time do this. Again, I'm hoping Forman is fired very soon and they have a new GM. I don't think Pax will begoing anywhere because he is one of Jerry Reinsdorf's guys like Kenny Williams at the White Sox. They get kicked upstairs. 

One final point on Butler: I mentioned that he has broken down physically the past few seasons. As I've seen the praises thrown at the T-Wolves the past week, I've thought how quickly we forget. Tom Thibodeau used to get tons of criticism from people (some on here) that he grinded his players into the ground with their minutes. Indeed, Thibs always has had a defensive security blanket that he HAS to have on the floor. 2011-12, it was Luol Deng. 2013-14, it was Joakim Noah. In his last season in '15 it was Jimmy. This should be fun! "IIIIIIIIIIIIICE!!!!"

eta: BTW, Jimmy's minutes really didn't go down under Fred.

 

[Jaime L]

32 minutes ago, Trebla said:

Indeed, Thibs always has had a defensive security blanket that he HAS to have on the floor. 2011-12, it was Luol Deng. 2013-14, it was Joakim Noah. In his last season in '15 it was Jimmy. This should be fun! "IIIIIIIIIIIIICE!!!!"

The whole post is stone cold, but this part in particular, is liquid nitrogen. 

Tywin, take a moment to purify yourself in the waters of Lake Minnetonka before reading this. 

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

We can argue who's better George or Melo, compare all the stats you want. But, here is the real question and the only one that matters. Are the Cavs closer to the Dubs by trading Love for George or keeping Love and getting Melo after a buyout? I think we all know that answer. Quit underselling Melo, he's a whole lot better than the haters here seem to suggest.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

43 minutes ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

We can argue who's better George or Melo, compare all the stats you want. But, here is the real question and the only one that matters. Are the Cavs closer to the Dubs by trading Love for George or keeping Love and getting Melo after a buyout? I think we all know that answer. Quit underselling Melo, he's a whole lot better than the haters here seem to suggest.

I think the Cavs would be closer to the Dubs with George for Love. They had trouble keeping Love and Thompson on the floor at the same time. How does Melo help with that? Now if they could also add Melo to that on the cheap, then you might have something.

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

3 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

I think the Cavs would be closer to the Dubs with George for Love. They had trouble keeping Love and Thompson on the floor at the same time. How does Melo help with that? Now if they could also add Melo to that on the cheap, then you might have something.

But, the reality is that Love will be part of the George deal. And, I know your team just won the ship. But, the Cavs are not that far behind them. A few pieces and LEbron get another ship, buddy.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

2 minutes ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

But, the reality is that Love will be part of the George deal. And, I know your team just won the ship. But, the Cavs are not that far behind them. A few pieces and LEbron get another ship, buddy.

Yeah, I agree that the Cavs are not that far behind. I just think that George gets them closer than Melo does. Even factoring Love into it. I don't see how Melo helps them beat the Warriors.

[briantw]

4 hours ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

We can argue who's better George or Melo, compare all the stats you want. But, here is the real question and the only one that matters. Are the Cavs closer to the Dubs by trading Love for George or keeping Love and getting Melo after a buyout? I think we all know that answer. Quit underselling Melo, he's a whole lot better than the haters here seem to suggest.

Why couldn't they get both?  Trade Love for George, and then get Melo when he's bought out.  George plays the two, Melo plays the four to replace Love.  

I don't understand how this became an either/or situation.  No one is talking about trading Love for Melo.  That would be moronic.