Disliking Tyrion Lannister

[A Ghost of Someone]

12 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

You have literally ignored everything any one has said & replied with more nonsense. Not one person on this thread has given him a "pass" & you have yet to show any evidence or even a suggestion of evidence for any one of your absurd claims. We get it. You don't like the character. 

Or maybe some people choose to overlook or condone everything he has ever done as understandable and justified. 

[the trees have eyes]

55 minutes ago, Sigella said:

I'm certain no living human is capable of absolute objectivity. We cannot reason on that level because if we do we have to leave all morality and values (objectively there cannot be anything "good" or "bad") behind, which we can't.  

So we have to assume everyone are totally bias in all things.

This bias thing is interesting though because it can show us what we hide from ourselves. I'm curious as to what bias against Tyrion says of the person who has it? I think it might be easier to spot by persons not having it. And I clearly do.

No one is capable of absolute objectivity.  Even if we try we all give different weight to different things so if two people reach different conclusions it's not necesarily anything to do with objectivity, more with perception.  Liking or disliking doesn't reveal bias, it's where a person ignores everything that would lean towards a different narrative and paints only the blackest (or whitest) picture that bias is revealed.  So for example, is Tyrion greeting Catelyn at the Crossroads Inn so terrible?  Or is his idea of justice really such a mockery as some make out (hint, hint, Allar Deem)?  If you can see that Tyrion can be kind, generous, loyal and well-meaning at times as well as dangerous, vindictive, loud-mouthed, needy and self-obsessed at other times then it's up to everyone to choose whether to like him or not.  If you can't see any of the positives then it doesn't look very balanced and more emtoive reaction than considered assessment.  Often it seems a retrospective judgment based on the Shae-Illyrio's Manse-Selhorys prostitute trinity that seems to push any other aspects of Tyrion's character or past behaviour out of mind for some posters.  Is it wrong to dislike him for this?  No, not at all.  For many people these are red lines that there is no coming back from (just as for others Jaime throwing Bran out the window or Sandor butchering Mycah are unforgivable whatever else these characters do).  But it is wrong to ignore or deny any other actions he may have taken that were more positive or to reinterpret any neutral or positive act in a negative light (e.g. Tyrion greeting Cat was arrogant and reckless and he got himself in trouble because of these flaws , or Tyrion only ever does anything kind or good because the recipient is broken or crippled in some way and he only has empathy for those who somehow echo his own predicament).

Out of curisoity did you always dislike Tyrion or was it specific events in later books that soured you?  People make up their minds in the first few seconds of an interview after all and initial perceptions make a strong impression.

This best sums up Tyrion for me - note it's from another pov so there can be no accusations of self-delusion. What was GRRM trying to tell us with this picture I wonder?

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Sansa I

In their midst, riding on a tall red horse in a strange high saddle that cradled him back and front, was the queen's dwarf brother Tyrion Lannister, the one they called the Imp. He had let his beard grow to cover his pushed-in face, until it was a bristly tangle of yellow and black hair, coarse as wire. Down his back flowed a shadowskin cloak, black fur striped with white. He held the reins in his left hand and carried his right arm in a white silk sling, but otherwise looked as grotesque as Sansa remembered from when he had visited Winterfell. With his bulging brow and mismatched eyes, he was still the ugliest man she had ever chanced to look upon.

Yet Tommen put his spurs into his pony and galloped headlong across the yard, shouting with glee. One of the savages, a huge shambling man so hairy that his face was all but lost beneath his whiskers, scooped the boy out of his saddle, armor and all, and deposited him on the ground beside his uncle. Tommen's breathless laughter echoed off the walls as Tyrion clapped him on the backplate, and Sansa was startled to see that the two were of a height. Myrcella came running after her brother, and the dwarf picked her up by the waist and spun her in a circle, squealing.

When he lowered her back to the ground, the little man kissed her lightly on the brow and came waddling across the yard toward Joffrey. Two of his men followed close behind him; a black-haired black-eyed sellsword who moved like a stalking cat, and a gaunt youth with an empty socket where one eye should have been. Tommen and Myrcella trailed after them.

The dwarf went to one knee before the king. "Your Grace."

"You," Joffrey said.

"Me," the Imp agreed, "although a more courteous greeting might be in order, for an uncle and an elder."

"They said you were dead," the Hound said.

The little man gave the big one a look. One of his eyes was green, one was black, and both were cool. "I was speaking to the king, not to his cur."

"I'm glad you're not dead," said Princess Myrcella.

"We share that view, sweet child." Tyrion turned to Sansa. "My lady, I am sorry for your losses. Truly, the gods are cruel."

Sansa could not think of a word to say to him. How could he be sorry for her losses? Was he mocking her? It wasn't the gods who'd been cruel, it was Joffrey.

"I am sorry for your loss as well, Joffrey," the dwarf said.

"What loss?"

"Your royal father? A large fierce man with a black beard; you'll recall him if you try. He was king before you."

"Oh, him. Yes, it was very sad, a boar killed him."

"Is that what 'they' say, Your Grace?"

Joffrey frowned. Sansa felt that she ought to say something. What was it that Septa Mordane used to tell her? A lady's armor is courtesy, that was it. She donned her armor and said, "I'm sorry my lady mother took you captive, my lord."

"A great many people are sorry for that," Tyrion replied, "and before I am done, some may be a deal sorrier . . . yet I thank you for the sentiment. Joffrey, where might I find your mother?"

"She's with my council," the king answered. "Your brother Jaime keeps losing battles." He gave Sansa an angry look, as if it were her fault. "He's been taken by the Starks and we've lost Riverrun and now her stupid brother is calling himself a king."

The dwarf smiled crookedly. "All sorts of people are calling themselves kings these days."

Joff did not know what to make of that, though he looked suspicious and out of sorts. "Yes. Well. I am pleased you're not dead, Uncle. Did you bring me a gift for my name day?"

"I did. My wits."

"I'd sooner have Robb Stark's head," Joff said with a sly glance at Sansa. "Tommen, Myrcella, come."

Sandor Clegane lingered behind a moment. "I'd guard that tongue of yours, little man," he warned, before he strode off after his liege.

Sansa was left with the dwarf and his monsters. She tried to think of what else she might say. "You hurt your arm," she managed at last.

"One of your northmen hit me with a morningstar during the battle on the Green Fork. I escaped him by falling off my horse." His grin turned into something softer as he studied her face. "Is it grief for your lord father that makes you so sad?"

"My father was a traitor," Sansa said at once. "And my brother and lady mother are traitors as well." That reflex she had learned quickly. "I am loyal to my beloved Joffrey."

"No doubt. As loyal as a deer surrounded by wolves."

"Lions," she whispered, without thinking. She glanced about nervously, but there was no one close enough to hear.

Lannister reached out and took her hand, and gave it a squeeze. "I am only a little lion, child, and I vow, I shall not savage you." Bowing, he said, "But now you must excuse me. I have urgent business with queen and council."

Sansa watched him walk off, his body swaying heavily from side to side with every step, like something from a grotesquerie. He speaks more gently than Joffrey, she thought, but the queen spoke to me gently too. He's still a Lannister, her brother and Joff's uncle, and no friend. Once she had loved Prince Joffrey with all her heart, and admired and trusted his mother, the queen. They had repaid that love and trust with her father's head. Sansa would never make that mistake again.

Quintessential Tyrion.  Unnecessary and unwise baiting of Joffrey and Sandor, too.  Shrewd, sharp-witted and sharp-tongued in keeping them off balance.  He later tells Cersei that it is part of his plan to rein in Joffrey that he make the boy fear him a little, so it is calculated provocation not unthinking fooloshness but it is unwise given Joffrey is king not crown prince any more and makes him the most powerful enemy he could have.

Tommen and Myrcella adore him and he is clearly fond of them.  The naivety of children or the reaction to their experience of Tyrion the man before they are old enough to absorb societal prejudices and their mother and elder brother's animosity towards this dwarf?

And his kindness to Sansa.  At first it's as much a veiled rebuke to Joffrey for offing Ned and worsening the conflict as it is genuine sympathy for her father's death but once Joffrey and the others leave it becomes genuine sympathy and kindness though Sansa is understandably suspicious.

And there is the threat weaved in there as well, that those responsible for wronging him will be sorry.  It's LF's lie about the dagger that he has in mind but it's certainly a character trait and one we see in shocking fashion later with Tywin and Shae.  A Lannister pays his debts after all.

[Sigella]

23 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said:

No one is capable of absolute objectivity.  Even if we try we all give different weight to different things so if two people reach different conclusions it's not necesarily anything to do with objectivity, more with perception.  Liking or disliking doesn't reveal bias, it's where a person ignores everything that would lean towards a different narrative and paints only the blackest (or whitest) picture that bias is revealed.  So for example, is Tyrion greeting Catelyn at the Crossroads Inn so terrible?  Or is his idea of justice really such a mockery as some make out (hint, hint, Allar Deem)?  If you can see that Tyrion can be kind, generous, loyal and well-meaning at times as well as dangerous, vindictive, loud-mouthed, needy and self-obsessed at other times then it's up to everyone to choose whether to like him or not.  If you can't see any of the positives then it doesn't look very balanced and more emtoive reaction than considered assessment.  Often it seems a retrospective judgment based on the Shae-Illyrio's Manse-Selhorys prostitute trinity that seems to push any other aspects of Tyrion's character or past behaviour out of mind for some posters.  Is it wrong to dislike him for this?  No, not at all.  For many people these are red lines that there is no coming back from (just as for others Jaime throwing Bran out the window or Sandor butchering Mycah are unforgivable whatever else these characters do).  But it is wrong to ignore or deny any other actions he may have taken that were more positive or to reinterpret any neutral or positive act in a negative light (e.g. Tyrion greeting Cat was arrogant and reckless and he got himself in trouble because of these flaws , or Tyrion only ever does anything kind or good because the recipient is broken or crippled in some way and he only has empathy for those who somehow echo his own predicament).

Out of curisoity did you always dislike Tyrion or was it specific events in later books that soured you?  People make up their minds in the first few seconds of an interview after all and initial perceptions make a strong impression.

This best sums up Tyrion for me - note it's from another pov so there can be no accusations of self-delusion. What was GRRM trying to tell us with this picture I wonder?

Quintessential Tyrion.  Unnecessary and unwise baiting of Joffrey and Sandor, too.  Shrewd, sharp-witted and sharp-tongued in keeping them off balance.  He later tells Cersei that it is part of his plan to rein in Joffrey that he make the boy fear him a little, so it is calculated provocation not unthinking fooloshness but it is unwise given Joffrey is king not crown prince any more and makes him the most powerful enemy he could have.

Tommen and Myrcella adore him and he is clearly fond of them.  The naivety of children or the reaction to their experience of Tyrion the man before they are old enough to absorb societal prejudices and their mother and elder brother's animosity towards this dwarf?

And his kindness to Sansa.  At first it's as much a veiled rebuke to Joffrey for offing Ned and worsening the conflict as it is genuine sympathy for her father's death but once Joffrey and the others leave it becomes genuine sympathy and kindness though Sansa is understandably suspicious.

And there is the threat weaved in there as well, that those responsible for wronging him will be sorry.  It's LF's lie about the dagger that he has in mind but it's certainly a character trait and one we see in shocking fashion later with Tywin and Shae.  A Lannister pays his debts after all.

My perception was actually the opposite, didn't read the books until after The Red Wedding was on the show and I decided that I certainly wouldn't want something like that sprung on me ever again  I liked him until I started reading the books.

Also on my first read his comments toward Catelyn on the way to the Vale kind of slipped by me. But then I started wondering what kind of a creep decides not to rape a child BUT ONLY AFTER after he makes her undress and exposing himself? I mean it had been worse if he had, but what he did is far from ok. And he has no guilt for any of it, rather the opposite, he thinks he's been good and just.

And then we learn that he participated in gang-rape, he murder Shae and rape slaves and voila he lost me.

Like he says such offensive hurtful things all the time and he never regrets it one bit. Its nothing to him that he slut-shamed Catelyn in an extremely graphic way in front of her people, he never thinks about it once.

My mental image of him have changed from Peter Dinklage to the Tales of the Crypt-skeleton dressed up like a doll with a ugly wig on.

Was the same with Varys, liked him on TV but on page he creeps me out bad.

 

I'm not at the point where I blame Tyrion for greeting Cat or being to blame for the twincest though. He has enough on his plate as is.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

6 hours ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

Or maybe some people choose to overlook or condone everything he has ever done as understandable and justified. 

Who? Who has done that? 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

4 hours ago, Sigella said:

My perception was actually the opposite, didn't read the books until after The Red Wedding was on the show and I decided that I certainly wouldn't want something like that sprung on me ever again  I liked him until I started reading the books.

Also on my first read his comments toward Catelyn on the way to the Vale kind of slipped by me. But then I started wondering what kind of a creep decides not to rape a child BUT ONLY AFTER after he makes her undress and exposing himself? I mean it had been worse if he had, but what he did is far from ok. And he has no guilt for any of it, rather the opposite, he thinks he's been good and just.

And then we learn that he participated in gang-rape, he murder Shae and rape slaves and voila he lost me.

Like he says such offensive hurtful things all the time and he never regrets it one bit. Its nothing to him that he slut-shamed Catelyn in an extremely graphic way in front of her people, he never thinks about it once.

My mental image of him have changed from Peter Dinklage to the Tales of the Crypt-skeleton dressed up like a doll with a ugly wig on.

Was the same with Varys, liked him on TV but on page he creeps me out bad.

I think it basically all boils down to our own perception. You see one side, I see another. It is interesting to think what that says about each of us. 

I never really thought about the Sansa/Tyrion wedding night the way you just presented it. I think I was so relieved that he didn't do it I ignored what he did do. It most certainly isn't right or kind. He was being threatened by his father to get Sansa pregnant & was forced to marry her BUT if he wasn't going to do the deed anyway why the undressing? I honestly felt bad for Tyrion in some of those passages because he was getting himself drunk, trying to work up the courage to do the deed BUT he also admits to being sexually aroused by her which is indeed creepy. I don't know if I could label him a child molester as this doesn't seem to be a concept people in Westeros gather the same way we do but it is hard to know he "wants" a little girl none the less. 

As far as Cat goes I think this is a better example of what I was meaning when I said you see it one way & I see it another. You see Tyrion slut shaming Cat with an audience to bear witness & never has the slightest bit of remorse. I see Tyrion being wrongfully accused, chained & blindfolded, forced on a trek that could cost him his life to answer for a crime he did not commit & all he does is say some mean things to the woman that is doing it. From my perspective why should he have to accept all of this AND be a perfect gentlemen about it while he is being subjected to the injustice? 

The gang rape is another thing I see differently. I see Tyrion being forced to watch the woman he loves be raped & then being forced to rape her himself. I feel like we don't have enough information to judge him fairly on this count (or at least for me to judge him fairly) because we don't know what "being forced" means. Tyrion says his father forced him. If, by forced, he means his father threatened to take away some money from him or some thing of that nature then that is hardly being forced IMO. If his father threatened to kill Tysha if Tyrion didn't comply - he was forced. 

Murdering Shae & raping the slave are most certainly wrong & I have no rebuttal for them. I understand why he murdered Shae, I get his reasoning, I understand how a man could get to that point but it is still wrong. The slave rape was pretty disgusting. 

Out of curiosity do you dislike Tyrion as a person - like you think he is a bad, evil, treacherous being or do you dislike Tyrion's character - like you think he is written poorly? 

[RhaegoTheUnborn]

In todays world he'd be a child molester, but in medieval times (Dark Ages, and the rise of enlightenment), which the show is based on, a fictional world within a time period where things like, marrying pre-teens, and teenagers to grown men, was the norm. I think sometimes you have to judge certain actions within the setting and time period the story is based on, and not by todays standards. But, thats just me.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

1 hour ago, RhaegoTheUnborn said:

In todays world he'd be a child molester, but in medieval times (Dark Ages, and the rise of enlightenment), which the show is based on, a fictional world within a time period where things like, marrying pre-teens, and teenagers to grown men, was the norm. I think sometimes you have to judge certain actions within the setting and time period the story is based on, and not by todays standards. But, thats just me.

I agree. But because of today's standards it's hard to look past a grown man & a little girl. I think it's easier in the books because you don't picture it that way - Because it wasn't written to be that way. One of the best decisions made for television was to age them up. If they hadn't it would have been very hard to look past it. 

[Sigella]

17 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I think it basically all boils down to our own perception. You see one side, I see another. It is interesting to think what that says about each of us. 

I never really thought about the Sansa/Tyrion wedding night the way you just presented it. I think I was so relieved that he didn't do it I ignored what he did do. It most certainly isn't right or kind. He was being threatened by his father to get Sansa pregnant & was forced to marry her BUT if he wasn't going to do the deed anyway why the undressing? I honestly felt bad for Tyrion in some of those passages because he was getting himself drunk, trying to work up the courage to do the deed BUT he also admits to being sexually aroused by her which is indeed creepy. I don't know if I could label him a child molester as this doesn't seem to be a concept people in Westeros gather the same way we do but it is hard to know he "wants" a little girl none the less. 

As far as Cat goes I think this is a better example of what I was meaning when I said you see it one way & I see it another. You see Tyrion slut shaming Cat with an audience to bear witness & never has the slightest bit of remorse. I see Tyrion being wrongfully accused, chained & blindfolded, forced on a trek that could cost him his life to answer for a crime he did not commit & all he does is say some mean things to the woman that is doing it. From my perspective why should he have to accept all of this AND be a perfect gentlemen about it while he is being subjected to the injustice? 

The gang rape is another thing I see differently. I see Tyrion being forced to watch the woman he loves be raped & then being forced to rape her himself. I feel like we don't have enough information to judge him fairly on this count (or at least for me to judge him fairly) because we don't know what "being forced" means. Tyrion says his father forced him. If, by forced, he means his father threatened to take away some money from him or some thing of that nature then that is hardly being forced IMO. If his father threatened to kill Tysha if Tyrion didn't comply - he was forced. 

Murdering Shae & raping the slave are most certainly wrong & I have no rebuttal for them. I understand why he murdered Shae, I get his reasoning, I understand how a man could get to that point but it is still wrong. The slave rape was pretty disgusting. 

Out of curiosity do you dislike Tyrion as a person - like you think he is a bad, evil, treacherous being or do you dislike Tyrion's character - like you think he is written poorly? 

I never realised possibility that Tywin threatened Tyshas life, if he did it clearly changes things. It would also open a more believable twist regarding the Sailors Wife. Wouldn't put it past Tywin for a second actually.

Your explanation towards what he said to Cat doesn't cut for me though. He could have mocked her for being ginger/not being as wealthy as him/having Bran crippled or whatever. But no, he goes straight for sexual harassment. As usual. I get that he is angry as hell but still... It low as hell.

Wasn't it two slaves, one in Illyrios manse and the Sunset Girl?

I don't think he is written poorly, if I thought he was I wouldn't sit online obsessing about him  Obvs I think he is a great literary character.

I wouldn't characterise him as any of your choices though. More like: egotistical, smart-mouthed, aesthetically heinous, self-deluded, chronic sex offender type of guy.

Sure he has his upsides but they are all very shallow (like telling Bronn to make sure no kids fall and break their necks on the scorpions) whereas his downsides opens a vortex down to hell (changed his mind when one fling mud at him) which is more interesting, to me at least.

[Sigella]

15 hours ago, RhaegoTheUnborn said:

In todays world he'd be a child molester, but in medieval times (Dark Ages, and the rise of enlightenment), which the show is based on, a fictional world within a time period where things like, marrying pre-teens, and teenagers to grown men, was the norm. I think sometimes you have to judge certain actions within the setting and time period the story is based on, and not by todays standards. But, thats just me.

We have grown men marrying children today in this world too. And no matter cultural/social norms, what happens in the bedchamber is exactly the same and I dare say all children everywhere in any world are just as unwilling as any other. So its not an excuse.

People can marry young and not consummate if it has to be done of political/dynastical reasons. So its not an excuse.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

54 minutes ago, Sigella said:

I never realised possibility that Tywin threatened Tyshas life, if he did it clearly changes things. It would also open a more believable twist regarding the Sailors Wife. Wouldn't put it past Tywin for a second actually.

Right. I would even argue if Tywin threatened Tyrion's life Tyrion should still have refused, but if he threatened Tysha's that's a different scenario. 

 

55 minutes ago, Sigella said:

Your explanation towards what he said to Cat doesn't cut for me though. He could have mocked her for being ginger/not being as wealthy as him/having Bran crippled or whatever. But no, he goes straight for sexual harassment. As usual. I get that he is angry as hell but still... It low as hell

I get what you are saying. It doesn't necessarily bother you that he insulted Cat but the fact that he insulted her sexually coupled with his other nasty deeds that are sexual in nature adds fuel to the fire which makes sense. 

 

57 minutes ago, Sigella said:

Wasn't it two slaves, one in Illyrios manse and the Sunset Girl?

I think you're right

 

1 hour ago, Sigella said:

I don't think he is written poorly, if I thought he was I wouldn't sit online obsessing about him  Obvs I think he is a great literary character.

We are on the same side of the fence here at least

 

1 hour ago, Sigella said:

wouldn't characterise him as any of your choices though. More like: egotistical, smart-mouthed, aesthetically heinous, self-deluded, chronic sex offender type of guy.

I agree with most of this some of the time. I just see him as more than that the rest of the time. 

 

1 hour ago, Sigella said:

Sure he has his upsides but they are all very shallow (like telling Bronn to make sure no kids fall and break their necks on the scorpions) whereas his downsides opens a vortex down to hell (changed his mind when one fling mud at him) which is more interesting, to me at least.

I think one of his biggest up-sides is the way he treats Tommen & Myrcella. I think you should add vengeful to your list of things he is though. I think he also says alot of things he doesn't mean &/or wouldn't follow through with because he is hot headed. 

 

58 minutes ago, Sigella said:

We have grown men marrying children today in this world too. And no matter cultural/social norms, what happens in the bedchamber is exactly the same and I dare say all children everywhere in any world are just as unwilling as any other. So its not an excuse.

People can marry young and not consummate if it has to be done of political/dynastical reasons. So its not an excuse.

Agreed. I think a couple things play into me being able to read this series without feeling like I'm reading some child molesters memoirs. First & foremost it's fictional obviously. Secondly (and the point I was trying to make earlier) is that because we don't see a grown man coupling with a little girl or vice versa & because the other characters don't take issue to it - so there is no commentary such as "Can you believe Tyrion married a little girl!" By the other characters it is easier to pretend they are older &/or ignore their age all together. I don't want to read a book where child molestation is the norm so these things allow me to put my blinders up so that I can still enjoy the series. 

[Tygett Lannister]

18 hours ago, RhaegoTheUnborn said:

In todays world he'd be a child molester, but in medieval times (Dark Ages, and the rise of enlightenment), which the show is based on, a fictional world within a time period where things like, marrying pre-teens, and teenagers to grown men, was the norm. I think sometimes you have to judge certain actions within the setting and time period the story is based on, and not by todays standards. But, thats just me.

How would he be a child molester? He is kind to Myrcella and Tommen, he likes grown up whores and doesn't rapes Sansa. He was thinking about doing it because Tywin tells him to do the duty and he is also drunk not because he would like to do it. He is much better than most men in Westeros would be in this situation. Who do you dare name wouldn't do it?

[sweetsunray]

8 minutes ago, Tygett Lannister said:

How would he be a child molester? He is kind to Myrcella and Tommen, he likes grown up whores and doesn't rapes Sansa. He was thinking about doing it because Tywin tells him to do the duty and he is also drunk not because he would like to do it. He is much better than most men in Westeros would be in this situation. Who do you dare name wouldn't do it?

He was aroused, undressed and showed his aroused cock to her. Like, really! If a 27-something guy did that in a girl's bedroom, he'd be arrested for child molestation. "The I didn't penetrate her," wouldn't cut it.

As for historical marriages at really young ages: In Europe the 13 years olds were wed, but it usually wasn't consummated until the girl would be about 16-17, often proven by the fact that the girl would have her first child at 17 or 18, because they knew that a girl as young as that would have an even lower survival rate. And this still would have been an exceptional high profile marriage (between princes and princesses and such). In general, at least for Western and Northern Europe middle class and non high profile nobility would have people wed at an older age, and the age gap was not that large. With commoners the average marriage age for women in that area was early 20s and the men mid to late 20s, with both having independent income. It doesn't mean that there weren't big age gaps and quite young girls wed to older men amongst these classes, but it wasn't "common" or the "norm".

The age gap was larger in Italy and that's where girls tended to be married at young ages. This had to do with dowry customs. The older the daughter became, the more expensive it became. But the records are not fully conclusive, since there is suggestive evidence that families "lied" about their daughter's age to keep the dowry price lower and affordable - that is several of these young girls listed as 14 might actually have been 16. 

Finally as for "better man than most": well, we still have to see any other example of mature men bedding 13 year old brides regularly. Even Tyrion's uncle suggests it would be perfectly acceptable and perhaps even preferable for Tyrion to not bed Sansa beyond the first consummation until she has actually grown into a woman. And the reason that Tywin and his brother expect Tyrion to consummate it is not because it's normal to bed a barely 13-year old, but because she's a hostage and been forced to marry Tyrion, the sister of a king who's rebelling and thus far "winning" his rebellion... so that King Robb Stark couldn't denounce the marriage. 

Being "better than Tywin" doesn't make Tyrion a good person, at all.

[Tygett Lannister]

58 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

He was aroused, undressed and showed his aroused cock to her. Like, really! If a 27-something guy did that in a girl's bedroom, he'd be arrested for child molestation. "The I didn't penetrate her," wouldn't cut it.

As for historical marriages at really young ages: In Europe the 13 years olds were wed, but it usually wasn't consummated until the girl would be about 16-17, often proven by the fact that the girl would have her first child at 17 or 18, because they knew that a girl as young as that would have an even lower survival rate. And this still would have been an exceptional high profile marriage (between princes and princesses and such). In general, at least for Western and Northern Europe middle class and non high profile nobility would have people wed at an older age, and the age gap was not that large. With commoners the average marriage age for women in that area was early 20s and the men mid to late 20s, with both having independent income. It doesn't mean that there weren't big age gaps and quite young girls wed to older men amongst these classes, but it wasn't "common" or the "norm".

The age gap was larger in Italy and that's where girls tended to be married at young ages. This had to do with dowry customs. The older the daughter became, the more expensive it became. But the records are not fully conclusive, since there is suggestive evidence that families "lied" about their daughter's age to keep the dowry price lower and affordable - that is several of these young girls listed as 14 might actually have been 16. 

Finally as for "better man than most": well, we still have to see any other example of mature men bedding 13 year old brides regularly. Even Tyrion's uncle suggests it would be perfectly acceptable and perhaps even preferable for Tyrion to not bed Sansa beyond the first consummation until she has actually grown into a woman. And the reason that Tywin and his brother expect Tyrion to consummate it is not because it's normal to bed a barely 13-year old, but because she's a hostage and been forced to marry Tyrion, the sister of a king who's rebelling and thus far "winning" his rebellion... so that King Robb Stark couldn't denounce the marriage. 

Being "better than Tywin" doesn't make Tyrion a good person, at all.

Spoiler

You are right nowadays Tyrion would get arrested for showing the cock. But Sansa is attractive and her sex organs are partially developed so I wouldn't judge him for getting hard, for what it matters I wouldn't judge people for any sexual preferences (example: pedophilia) as long as they don't hurt others with it. He pulled the cock out because he was drunk probably, which of course doesn't makes it okay. But I think Tyrion prefers adult women.

Still think most of the westerosi nobles would consummate it to make marriage legal, Tyrion knows how to prevent pregnancy so there wouldn't be problem of Sansa getting ripped apart at childbirth but since Sansa is so young penetration could injure her vagina.

spolier for adult-er content

dont arrest me pls

[A Ghost of Someone]

22 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Who? Who has done that? 

A simple opinion that may apply to many or few in the reader world.in regards to Tyrion.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

1 hour ago, Tygett Lannister said:

  Reveal hidden contents

You are right nowadays Tyrion would get arrested for showing the cock. But Sansa is attractive and her sex organs are partially developed so I wouldn't judge him for getting hard, for what it matters I wouldn't judge people for any sexual preferences (example: pedophilia) as long as they don't hurt others with it. He pulled the cock out because he was drunk probably, which of course doesn't makes it okay. But I think Tyrion prefers adult women.

Still think most of the westerosi nobles would consummate it to make marriage legal, Tyrion knows how to prevent pregnancy so there wouldn't be problem of Sansa getting ripped apart at childbirth but since Sansa is so young penetration could injure her vagina.

spolier for adult-er content

dont arrest me pls

 

Spoiler

Oh my. Well first of all she has had her period so her sexual organs are fully developed. That isn't really the point though. The point is she is a child & he is a grown man. She is attractive but most grown men would look at a pretty little girl & think "oh what a pretty little girl" not get a boner. I would agree that a pedophile shouldn't be arrested as long as they don't act on their urges but judged? I'm not sure. If they can't help it they can't & for that I would feel slightly remorseful judging them. However I have a little girl & if I know a grown man has a sexual preference for little girls I'm going to make certain he does not spend any time in her presence. If that's judging him then it is & I'm ok with it. I do agree Tyrion prefers adult women but he is a sexual deviant. I really sometimes wonder about GRRM having written so many sexual taboos (incest, rape, pedophilia etc) is it for the shock value? If so I think he over did it a little. There is so much of it, it really isn't shocking anymore & the story could be told just as well with less of these incidences. 

 

[RhaegoTheUnborn]

@Tygett Lannister  You're weird, bruh. 

 

@Sigella Like whom? Cite some examples of children marrying grown men in todays time, and where is that accepted? I'm solely speaking in terms of the world setting ASOIAF is based on, in that Tyrion's marriage with Sansa would largely be accepted. Hence I said the marriage, and nothing about consummation, as that's another subject entirely.

 

Tyrion says, while on his ride to the castle with Varys after leaving Shae, that his father forced him to lay with Tysha, after his own men did. He says he didn't want to do it but that his "cock betrayed him" and he got aroused and did the "deed". Like I said Tyrion has his good and bad tendencies and moments, like everyone else, his situation isn't different from any of the other character in GRRM'S created world. I'm not even touching on real life and what goes on today other than what I said in the other post, because we're talking about a fictional universe, personally I don't even see what place real world stigma's, culture, etc. has in this discussion.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

4 minutes ago, RhaegoTheUnborn said:

Like whom? Cite some examples of children marrying grown men in todays time, and where is that accepted? I'm solely speaking in terms of the world setting ASOIAF is based on, in that Tyrion's marriage with Sansa would largely be accepted. Hence I said the marriage, and nothing about consummation, as that's another subject entirely.

I agree & I don't think the consumation would be opposed either honestly. Someone above said Kevan commented that he could consumate the marriage & then not get her pregnant until she is older. But he would still be doing the deed even if it was only once & no one seems to think anything of it. 

[RhaegoTheUnborn]

 

3 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I agree & I don't think the consumation would be opposed either honestly. Someone above said Kevan commented that he could consumate the marriage & then not get her pregnant until she is older. But he would still be doing the deed even if it was only once & no one seems to think anything of it. 

Honestly in terms of GRRM's written world, I don't think it would've been opposed much either. Especially with someone in Sansa's position, a girl from a rival, rebelling great house, being captive to those whom are against her family. It wouldn't of been opposed because had Robb died early on, remember the Lannisters largely thought Bran, Rickon, and Arya were all dead, this wasn't that long before the Red Wedding, Robb would've been dead, and Tyrion's marriage with Sansa would allow a Lannister to be the new lord of House Stark, effectively putting House Stark out of business. If Sansa was pregnant with child, that makes the claim stronger, so Tyrion probably would've been influenced even more to lay with her.

[Banner Without Brothers]

Someone asked for real world examples of teenage marriage.

Spain is to raise the age of consent from 13 to 16 and the minimum age for marriage from 14 to 16.

The change was agreed unanimously in principle by parliament in 2009 under the previous government and is expected to come into force this month.

Adults who have sex with underage children now face from two to six years in prison and up to 12 years if they have performed oral or penetrative sex.

An exception is made in the case of consensual sex with someone under 16 "when the other party is of a similar age or stage of development and maturity", a loose concept that judges will have to define on a case-by-case basis.

Raising the age to 16 brings Spain into line with the UK, Russia, the Netherlands, Norway and Belgium. It is 14 in Germany, Austria, Hungary, Italy and Portugal and 18 in Turkey and Malta.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/04/spain-raises-age-of-consent

Jerry Lee Lewis

Lewis's turbulent personal life was hidden from the public until a May 1958 British tour where Ray Berry, a news agency reporter at London's Heathrow Airport (the only journalist present), learned about Lewis's third wife, Myra Gale Brown. She was Lewis's first cousin once removed[23][24] and was only 13 years old at the time. (Brown, Lewis, and his management all insisted that she was 15.) Lewis was 22 years old. The publicity caused an uproar, and the tour was cancelled after only three concerts.

The scandal followed Lewis home to the United States; and, as a result, he was blacklisted from radio and almost vanished from the music scene. Lewis felt betrayed by numerous people who had been his supporters. Dick Clark dropped him from his shows. Lewis even felt that Sam Phillips had sold him out when the Sun Records boss released "The Return of Jerry Lee", a bogus "interview" spliced together by Jack Clement from excerpts of Lewis's songs that "answered" the interview questions, which made light of his marital and publicity problems. Only Alan Freed stayed true to Lewis, playing his records until Freed was removed from the air because of payola allegations.

 

[RhaegoTheUnborn]

I know about Jerry Lewis from Matt  Judge's new show. That was in the 50's, that doesn't count for "todays time", not at all, and he got shit for that in both Europe and America. And the first article you linked, kind of proves my point, they raised their age of consent to 16, don't really know if that classifies as a child in todays time, as in the US, that's the age where you can get your learners permit, here, 16year olds are still classified as minors,yet old enough to have sex, but not old enough for marriage. I don't know how Spain classifies children from adults, but raising ages of consent and ages of legal marriages, proves my point. But thats too much real world stuff, on a forum and in a thread about ASOIAF.