Disliking Tyrion Lannister

[sweetsunray]

51 minutes ago, Tygett Lannister said:

Do you know what PTSD is?It is when you kill a man in vietnam war and now any thing that is related to that event is triggering you to have flashbacks.

"Post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) is a mental health condition that's triggered by a terrifying event — either experiencing it or witnessing it. Symptoms may include flashbacks, nightmares and severe anxiety, as well as uncontrollable thoughts about the event"

Is Sansa having flashbacks of Tyrions cock every time anyone has hands close to their cock area? If she had PTSD it would probably be her dads execution.

I know what PTSD is, because I had a minor version of it... except it wasn't triggered by one traumatic event, but several, some were minor traumatic, yet nevertheless deeply painful, some were scary, some were witnessing violence of a nature I was never exposed to before. Not every trauma results in PTSD, and the traumas that may be the foundation for PTSD may not be the most terrifying trauma that person experienced. Nor does PTSD mean you can't judge a person's bad character.

PTSD happens when someone has been unable to process a trauma at all, and is a delayed response to heal from it, usually when the person having it, actually has emotional room and time and safety to process it. That's why there are flashbacks and nightmares and triggered anxiety in seemingly analogues situations: the repressed trauma is long in the past, and you can only heal from it by reliving the past. The person with PTSD did not recognize at the actual traumatic time that they were scared or hurt, but instead felt strong, fine, in control, etc.

Sansa has no PTSD about her father's beheading, because she allowed herself to fully experience the trauma, during and after. She might correctly conclude Joffrey's a monster, but if she was traumatized by him, and did not allow herself to register her fear, humiliation and pain during those times, then those events may only be worked through later, when she's safe from Joffrey. I do not see any sign of that for Sansa with regards Joffrey, or Lysa. She might however develop it over LF. 

[Blue-Eyed Wolf]

16 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

If she had stayed under Joffrey's thumb for much longer there is a danger he would have ground her down and broken her, that I agree.  But I don't agree that she was broken and that she could not tell the difference between genuine kindness and emotional manipulation or abuse.  There is no Stockholm Syndrome here.  Tyrion gave her a way out on their wedding night and she took it gratefully and he never layed a finger on her afterwards, much to her relief.  She does not think of him as an abuser because he wasn't.  He left her alone.  Joffrey tormented her and she is aware that LF wants something from her even before the kiss at the Eyrie but Tyrion didn't.  The one time I remember him wanting somehting from her and that was an emotional connection of some sort she viewed him as a needy child not an abuser.

I never mentioned Stockholm Syndrome or anything like a long term, ongoing psychological condition like PTSD.  So let's not put words in my mouth okay?  I also specifically pointed to Cersei and Joffrey as being her chief abusers, mostly verbal and with Joffrey both verbal and physical.  Sansa has put up a hell of a fight internally resisting her abusers trying to break her.  No she is definitely not broken; however, it's way more nuanced than that.  She's not totally unscathed either.  Being thought of as stupid by everyone around you and having to play stupid all the time to try to avoid being beaten is bound to have effects on a person's self-esteem.  And there are times when Sansa has picked up on some detail accurately and correctly, but immediately doubts herself and puts it out of her mind.  This is not evidence of her being so warped by trauma that we can't trust anything she says or thinks anymore, but it also fair to say that it does sometimes affect her.  I have written many, many posts defending Sansa against accusations that she's delusional, unintellegent, or so traumatized that we can't trust her POV.  Actually I think she's better than most at processing the traumatic things that have happened to her and reflecting upon them critically.  But I also have to weigh what she thinks against the facts and what she doesn't know.  All her feelings on everything don't need to be gospel, unimpeachable truth to me.

One example of that effect is she couldn't tell that Margaery and the Tyrells were manipulating her emotionally.  Again, I don't knock her for that.  Sansa was desperate and Margaery had the advantage over her in being slightly older and having been trained by her very politically savvy grandmother.  Sansa very astutely picked up on the fact that Margaery was strangely undisturbed by her warning that Joffrey would hurt her, but then assumed it must be because Margaery was older and more knowledgeable about these things.  Again, doubting her own perception and thinking she must be less intelligent than everyone else.  I'm not trying to get too off topic, but this is an example of when we shouldn't agree with Sansa's POV that there's nothing amiss here.  She was right to find that weird, but I don't blame her for not questioning it further because I understand why.  

You also have to take into account that Sansa has been positively reinforced her entire life to be a people pleaser as well as it being something she's naturally inclined to.  She's known to be the most obedient child of all the kids.  She's been taught to look for the approval or disapproval of others and adjust herself accordingly.  She feels great anxiety about displeasing men especially.  So it doesn't shock me that when she sees Tyrion's face she immediately adjusts herself for him.  It's almost an automatic response for her to feel bad and blame herself when men are upset.  This doesn't mean that the men are upset for having been truly wronged.  Sometimes they're just self-centered assholes.  Let me just repeat this because I think it's really important:

Not raping someone is the lowest possible bar of human decency to pass.  Any non-rapist can pass that bar.  You don't get a cookie for not being a rapist. 

Rape is illegal both in the real world and Westeros.  People know it is wrong that is why it is codified into law.  People also know it is wrong when rape is tolerated even in marriage.  Is it tolerated at times by misogynist, corrupted institutions?  Yes.  We have POV after POV expounding upon what shitty things are allowed to slide in Westeros by the people that should protect the weak.  That is evidence that they all know this is wrong even when it's tolerated.  I'm not holding Tyrion to some liberal 21st century standard.  I am holding him to the standards of his own world.  This is not a marriage, it is an act of war.  Tyrion understands this.  The goal is to consummate the marriage, get Sansa pregnant as fast as possible, and create a Lannister heir to Winterfell after her family is obliterated.  Then Sansa's life is also expendable.  It is not a marriage, it is the means to make make House Stark extinct permanently.

As sweet said this isn't a typical or normal Westerosi marriage.  Tywin is not most patriarchs.  While misogyny is inherently baked into all Westerosi noble marriages, it does seem like most parents do try to make sure their kids are married to an agreeable partner at a reasonable age.  Most parents, as in the real Middle Ages, did love their children enough to see that they weren't totally miserable.  No marriages weren't based on love, but it didn't mean they wanted their daughters married to monsters either.  Brienne's father did not force her to marry even though he could have.  Ned intended on Sansa's wedding taking place when she was older.  We see this type of mercenary approach to marriage happening with the really cold, shitty parents that see their children as pawns, but it isn't meant to be taken as typical behavior.          

While Tyrion doesn't tell her she's stupid directly, he definitely speaks to her in a condescending way many times and we know from his internal thoughts that he doesn't think highly of her intelligence.  Talking down to someone is neither respectful or kind.  Especially when he has demonstrated over and over he is acting for a pro-Lannister agenda and a Lannister victory.  He's entirely clueless about truly empathizing with her even when they first reunite at Joffrey's name day tourney:

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"We share that view, sweet child." Tyrion turned to Sansa. "My lady, I am sorry for your losses. Truly, the gods are cruel."
Sansa could not think of a word to say to him. How could he be sorry for her losses? Was he mocking her? It wasn't the gods who'd been cruel, it was Joffrey.

Um.... no.... Ned's beheading wasn't just some unfortunate thing that happened that was the will of the gods.  It's a condescending thing to say to her as if she doesn't know who was in the wrong here.  No wonder she wondered if he was mocking her.  It's an absurd thing to say when he knows well and good who killed her father and the other Northmen.  It can only be explained by the fact that he underestimates Sansa's understanding and his condolences are superficial.  So now let's look at the pre-wedding conversations:

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My lady, this is no way to bring you to your wedding. I am sorry for that. And for making this so sudden, and so secret. My lord father felt it necessary, for reasons of state. Else I would have come to you sooner, as I wished." He waddled closer. "You did not ask for this marriage, I know. No more than I did. If I had refused you, however, they would have wed you to my cousin Lancel. Perhaps you would prefer that. He is nearer your age, and fairer to look upon. If that is your wish, say so, and I will end this farce."
I don't want any Lannister, she wanted to say. I want Willas, I want Highgarden and the puppies and the barge, and sons named Eddard and Bran and Rickon. But then she remembered what Dontos had told her in the godswood. Tyrell or Lannister, it makes no matter, it's not me they want, only my claim. "You are kind, my lord," she said, defeated. "I am a ward of the throne and my duty is to marry as the king commands."

Bullllllllshhhhhhhhhhhiiiiiiiiitttttttttt! 

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"In the gutters and the ditches," finished Lord Tywin, "and in common ground where only bastard weeds take root. It is past time you kept your own garden." He rose to his feet. "You shall never have Casterly Rock, I promise you. But wed Sansa Stark, and it is just possible that you might win Winterfell."
Tyrion Lannister, Lord Protector of Winterfell. The prospect gave him a queer chill. "Very good, Father," he said slowly, "but there's a big ugly roach in your rushes. Robb Stark is as capable as I am, presumably, and sworn to marry one of those fertile Freys. And once the Young Wolf sires a litter, any pups that Sansa births are heirs to nothing."
Lord Tywin was unconcerned. "Robb Stark will father no children on his fertile Frey, you have my word. There is a bit of news I have not yet seen fit to share with the council, though no doubt the good lords will hear it soon enough. The Young Wolf has taken Gawen Westerling's eldest daughter to wife."

"Could the Westerlings and Spicers be such great fools as to believe the wolf can defeat the lion?"

Every once in a very long while, Lord Tywin Lannister would actually threaten to smile; he never did, but the threat alone was terrible to behold. "The greatest fools are ofttimes more clever than the men who laugh at them," he said, and then, "You will marry Sansa Stark, Tyrion. And soon."

Oh yeah... he never wanted this marriage! And he is fully aware of the hints Tywin is dropping, he's just choosing not to ask questions.  He knows Sansa's family is in danger.  He knows the Westerlings and Spicers are set to betray them.  He's framing the upcoming murder of her family as the "reasons of state" that it was necessary to keep the wedding secret from Sansa.  That is definitely condescending, knowingly deceitful, manipulative, and completely selfish.  Tyrion is presenting himself to Sansa as the good guy and just an innocent bystander to his family's machinations.  Bullshit!  He makes it clear she is going to marry a Lannister one way or another.  There's no real choice for Sansa here.  We can't in good conscience call this kindness to her.  Especially when she thinks right before calling him "kind" she remembers Tyrell or Lannister they only want her for her claim.  Again, she called it correctly no matter how Tyrion is spinning it.  So Tyrion may never have hit her or called her names, but he was a participant.  He was actively working to uphold her abusers in power, he willingly participated in the forced marriage, and she knows the real reason why no matter what he is saying to her.  Then we get to the wedding night:

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She climbed onto the featherbed, conscious of his stare. A scented beeswax candle burned on the bedside table and rose petals had been strewn between the sheets. She had started to pull up a blanket to cover herself when she heard him say, "No."

The cold made her shiver, but she obeyed. Her eyes closed, and she waited. After a moment she heard the sound of her husband pulling off his boots, and the rustle of clothing as he undressed himself. When he hopped up on the bed and put his hand on her breast, Sansa could not help but shudder. She lay with her eyes closed, every muscle tense, dreading what might come next. Would he touch her again? Kiss her? Should she open her legs for him now? She did not know what was expected of her.

She had promised to obey; she opened her eyes. He was sitting by her feet, naked. Where his legs joined, his man's staff poked up stiff and hard from a thicket of coarse yellow hair, but it was the only thing about him that was straight.

This is just fucking sad and horrific.  She doesn't want to be naked and Tyrion won't allow her to cover herself.  She keeps her eyes closed, her muscles are tense, she's shuddering at his touch.  She's goddamn terrified.  She's obeying his commands because she's so scared and confused over what she should do she just defaults to her obedience training.  The fact that Tyrion stopped short of raping her is not something we should be congratulating him on.  As readers we are privy to every intention Tyrion had and every decision he made that led to this moment.  We certainly know more details than Sansa.  Nothing that led up to this was kind.  You know how we also know his promise to not touch her was not entirely heartfelt?

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"On my honor as a Lannister," the Imp said, "I will not touch you until you want me to."
It took all the courage that was in her to look in those mismatched eyes and say, "And if I never want you to, my lord?"
His mouth jerked as if she had slapped him. "Never?"

It never occurred to him that she would never want to have sex with him.  It shocks him utterly.  And that is just insane considering he is fully aware this was an ambush forced marriage to destroy her family.  This just smacks of "nice guy" entitlement.  His reaction shows he fully believed he could "nice guy" his way into making this all okay.  Because once she "consents" (I'm using that term very loosely) to consummating the marriage it makes the ends justify the means.  This is all about how Sansa makes him look and feel about himself.   He wants to look like the good guy and hero.  We'll see that again in how he handles the Blackwater and how he expects to be viewed.  So when Sansa looks at him and sees a "needy child," that's not a positive or softens what's happening here.  It's looking at him critically and accurately.  She senses that there's a (Tysha and Tywin shaped) hole inside him (an adult man) he's looking for her (a child) to fix and validate.  No one wants to marry or have sex with a hot mess man-baby, while Sansa doesn't articulate all that her perception is spot on.  Tyrion keeps referring to her as the child and to himself as the adult, but really she has a much more mature perspective on him than his on her.  And actually she did try to have meaningful conversation with him to bring down the tension, but he shut her down:

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"Who was she, my lord?" Sansa was curious despite herself.
"Lady Tysha." His mouth twisted. "Of House Silverfist. Their arms have one gold coin and a hundred silver, upon a bloody sheet. Ours was a very short marriage . . . as befits a very short man, I suppose."
Sansa stared down at her hands and said nothing.

Intimacy is key to establishing trust and he put the kibosh on that himself.  

When I see "nice guy" entitlement like this, how am I supposed to be confident he'd never exercise his husbandly rights with her eventually assuming the PW never happens?  You call it speculation, but it's not unfounded.  We have evidence that his promise and resolve are shaky.  We see him going for the overkill with Symon Silvertongue.  He's a doofus for sure trying to blackmail Tyrion, but his demand is petty: to sing at Joffrey's wedding.  And in return he not only gets murdered but cannibalized and fed to the poor of Flea Bottom, who he also resents for not loving him either.  While I don't like Shae either, she was plainly giving him the "boyfriend experience" he asked her for.  He knew what she was and he went to her all the time like a "needy child," playing her hero and defender while she heaped praise on him.  I don't find her manipulative as much as she gave him what he wanted and he deluded himself.  His murder of her is highly charged with resentment over her not being really in love with him...  it's like he's shocked this was a transaction for her the whole time.   wtf.... Even with his recollection of Tysha, is a sex worker (even if that were true about her) not a human being too?  Tysha being a prostitute and "fooling him" means she somehow deserved to be gang raped in his mind?  So how can I rest assured that Sansa would have been safe with him when the man clearly has his snapping point?    

[Banner Without Brothers]

2 hours ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

It never occurred to him that she would never want to have sex with him.  It shocks him utterly.  And that is just insane considering he is fully aware this was an ambush forced marriage to destroy her family.  This just smacks of "nice guy" entitlement.  His reaction shows he fully believed he could "nice guy" his way into making this all okay.  Because once she "consents" (I'm using that term very loosely) to consummating the marriage it makes the ends justify the means.  This is all about how Sansa makes him look and feel about himself.   He wants to look like the good guy and hero.  We'll see that again in how he handles the Blackwater and how he expects to be viewed.  So when Sansa looks at him and sees a "needy child," that's not a positive or softens what's happening here.  It's looking at him critically and accurately.  She senses that there's a (Tysha and Tywin shaped) hole inside him (an adult man) he's looking for her (a child) to fix and validate.  No one wants to marry or have sex with a hot mess man-baby, while Sansa doesn't articulate all that her perception is spot on.  Tyrion keeps referring to her as the child and to himself as the adult, but really she has a much more mature perspective on him than his on her.  And actually she did try to have meaningful conversation with him to bring down the tension, but he shut her down:

Good post, I hope you don't mind me jumping in but I think you're a little harsh here. As you established he wants the claim, he doesn't really want the marriage that goes with it. I think he's resolved to try and make the marriage work. Then he gets told that this marriage that he's stuck in may never be a real marriage. I think it's ok to be disappointed at that. In the end he's ok with that because all he wants is the claim/power.

[A Ghost of Someone]

10 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

If you can provide a single quote that eludes to this then we can talk. If not it's more of your made up nonsense. 

Please tell me how Sansa's judgement is skewed when it comes to Tyrion because of her "PTSD" but not when it comes to Cersei or Joffrey - or anyone else for that matter. 

you are right as I should have reread the wedding day before posting. He jests to himself that if he told her and took her that she would suffer it as her duty and weep no more than usual.

[A Ghost of Someone]

9 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

It looks like you realise that he did not have the intention of raping her after the purple wedding and are backpeddling hard while still trying to maintain your specious argument.

How about you just admit you made up misremembered the text?  No harm in being wrong as long as you are a big enough person to acknowledge it.

You realise she knows she isn't Alayne or LF's daughter, right?  It's an act to stay hidden.

I do stand corrected, he jests to himself what would happen if he were  to tell her and take her that night what would happen, not that he intended to.

As for Sansa's mental state, especially in the Vale, to me, she is clearly suffering from her ordeal as a whole that she endured in Kings Landing and yes, she is under cover to stay hidden. I know that but it is undeniable that she is "damaged" from what she endured, as a whole, in King's Landing and part of that, a large part I would say is having to endure being married to Tyrion.

[A Ghost of Someone]

7 hours ago, Tygett Lannister said:

Do you know what PTSD is?It is when you kill a man in vietnam war and now any thing that is related to that event is triggering you to have flashbacks.

"Post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) is a mental health condition that's triggered by a terrifying event — either experiencing it or witnessing it. Symptoms may include flashbacks, nightmares and severe anxiety, as well as uncontrollable thoughts about the event"

Is Sansa having flashbacks of Tyrions cock every time anyone has hands close to their cock area? If she had PTSD it would probably be her dads execution.

I believe I do and no, I do not think it is reflecting on his cock. She endured countless events in King's Landing that would seemingly render some people catatonic.

[A Ghost of Someone]

Sansa, even though this is not a Sansa thread, seems like she is programmed to be this courteous, dutiful and sweet person who when in a dangerous or frightening situation, she runs on this program that she was taught from childhood. Tell people what they want to hear, kiss their ass. The only times she exercises independence or open defiance is when she is considering knocking Joffrey off the ramparts when he showed her Ned's head and her forced marriage to Tyrion. 

[Blue-Eyed Wolf]

26 minutes ago, Banner Without Brothers said:

Good post, I hope you don't mind me jumping in but I think you're a little harsh here. As you established he wants the claim, he doesn't really want the marriage that goes with it. I think he's resolved to try and make the marriage work. Then he gets told that this marriage that he's stuck in may never be a real marriage. I think it's ok to be disappointed at that. In the end he's ok with that because all he wants is the claim/power.

Thank you, but I don't think it's harsh.  He most definitely wants the claim, he says so.  He also wants her, he's physically attracted to her, he says that too.  The marriage goes hand in hand with the claim and all the consequences to her family.  Tyrion is not dumb.  He has no plausible deniability of his knowledge of what's to come.  Tywin is not being subtle about having some special plans for Robb Stark that ensures he never produces an heir.  Tywin also makes it clear they have nothing to worry about from the Spicers and Westerlings.  It's his two part plan to murder Robb, prevent heirs of his body, and supplant them with Lannister heirs to Winterfell.  So when Tyrion says "I didn't ask for this marriage" it's only technically true in that he wasn't expecting anything like that to happen until Tywin pitched the idea to him.  That still makes it bullshit because of the way he's presenting his role in it to Sansa.  And he knows... he knows the marriage means Robb Stark must be taken out in order for him to be Lord of Winterfell.  He just doesn't want to think too much about breaking eggs when making an omelette, but he's still willing to break some eggs... all while patting Sansa on the head and talking to her as if she doesn't understand what's really happening.      

So with that in mind, how can he have any reasonable expectation this is a normal arranged marriage that he can "make work?"  One side of the relationship, the one that helped entrap her, can't be the one to say "I can't believe she's not trying to make this work!"   This is delusional to expect her eventually come around and accept him like a real husband.  He has no right to feel disappointed that his wife isn't warming up to him. She's telling him no way, no how, no sir is this ever going to be a thing between us. 

What Tyrion desires from her is not something he's willing to reciprocate.  He wants her to adore him, desire him, trust him completely, be completely vulnerable with him.  We see this in his relationship with Shae that he wants her to pretty much lavish praise upon him and validate him as a man.  He willfully deludes himself that Shae will be jealous that he's marrying Sansa and actually she couldn't care less.  That should be a big reminder that Shae is a prostitute playing the role he wants her to play.  He's been given plenty of warnings.  He has no right to be disappointed that he projected unfounded beliefs on Shae.  So this is what he says he wants with Sansa:

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Sansa's misery was deepening every day. Tyrion would gladly have broken through her courtesy to give her what solace he might, but it was no good. No words would ever make him fair in her eyes. Or any less a Lannister. This was the wife they had given him, for all the rest of his life, and she hated him.

And their nights together in the great bed were another source of torment. He could no longer bear to sleep naked, as had been his custom. His wife was too well trained ever to say an unkind word, but the revulsion in her eyes whenever she looked on his body was more than he could bear. Tyrion had commanded Sansa to wear a sleeping shift as well. I want her, he realized. I want Winterfell, yes, but I want her as well, child or woman or whatever she is. I want to comfort her. I want to hear her laugh. I want her to come to me willingly, to bring me her joys and her sorrows and her lust. His mouth twisted in a bitter smile. Yes, and I want to be tall as Jaime and as strong as Ser Gregor the Mountain too, for all the bloody good it does.

 Again, he's surprised and resentful that she "hates" him.  His emotional intelligence with women is abysmal.  I don't think she hates him and he does intellectually understand why she's miserable, but he also can't understand why she won't get over that and let him comfort her.  She can't be expected to seek solace in her forced marriage.  That's crazy and unreasonable to expect that of her.  Her wall of courtesy is literally the only thing she has left to resist her captors, keep herself sane, protect herself psychologically, and keep her internal world private.  Everything else has been taken from her and... Tyrion wishes he could break through that wall so he can occupy that last bit of private space she controls.  The last thing she wants is to be even more vulnerable with her enemies.  He sees her sorrow, but then immediate thinks about how shitty this marriage is for him, and how things suck for him, and how it gives him a big sad.  Honestly, if he is disappointed that it isn't working out like he'd hoped, it's because his hopes are wildly misplaced.  That's on him, not Sansa.

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He wanted something from her, but Sansa did not know what it was. He looks like a starving child, but I have no food to give him. Why won't he leave me be?

Her answer to him about never, ever, ever, ever, wanting anything from him remains the same.  She wants to be left alone.  She wants him to stop looking to her to fulfill his needs, because she's not having it.  A nice guy, decent guy, would concede to her wish to be left alone.  Not just in a "I'm promise I won't rape you" way, but to be left alone in all ways.       

[Tygett Lannister]

8 hours ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

Rape is illegal both in the real world and Westeros.  People know it is wrong that is why it is codified into law.  People also know it is wrong when rape is tolerated even in marriage.  Is it tolerated at times by misogynist, corrupted institutions?  Yes.  We have POV after POV expounding upon what shitty things are allowed to slide in Westeros by the people that should protect the weak.  That is evidence that they all know this is wrong even when it's tolerated.  I'm not holding Tyrion to some liberal 21st century standard.  I am holding him to the standards of his own world.  This is not a marriage, it is an act of war.  Tyrion understands this.  The goal is to consummate the marriage, get Sansa pregnant as fast as possible, and create a Lannister heir to Winterfell after her family is obliterated.  Then Sansa's life is also expendable.  It is not a marriage, it is the means to make make House Stark extinct permanently.

As sweet said this isn't a typical or normal Westerosi marriage.  Tywin is not most patriarchs.  While misogyny is inherently baked into all Westerosi noble marriages, it does seem like most parents do try to make sure their kids are married to an agreeable partner at a reasonable age.  Most parents, as in the real Middle Ages, did love their children enough to see that they weren't totally miserable.  No marriages weren't based on love, but it didn't mean they wanted their daughters married to monsters either.  Brienne's father did not force her to marry even though he could have.  Ned intended on Sansa's wedding taking place when she was older.  We see this type of mercenary approach to marriage happening with the really cold, shitty parents that see their children as pawns, but it isn't meant to be taken as typical behavior.        

That is simply wrong. You are clearly holding Tyrion to some 21st century liberal standards.  In Middle Ages/Westeros a lot of the noble marriages would be considered rape from your point of view. Young women had no choice but to marry older men that they didn't even know, and they could be ugly, crippled . But in Westeros there is no such thing as raping your wife, since sex is duty that man and woman must attend and since man has leading role in marriage he decides when and how he wants to do it.

Also no plan is not to impregnate her, plan is to consume marriage for it to be legal, Sansa is safely in KL and child can wait. If she gets impregnated at age of 13 changes of dying at childbirth or causing infertility afterwards are pretty high and they know that.

8 hours ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

"You did not ask for this marriage, I know. No more than I did. If I had refused you, however, they would have wed you to my cousin Lancel. Perhaps you would prefer that. He is nearer your age, and fairer to look upon. If that is your wish, say so, and I will end this farce."

He clearly doesn't want marriage to happen, other ways he wouldn't tell her about Lancel. Of course he finds her attractive and of course he likes idea of ruling the North since he is good at it and likes it. And of course he is disappointed if when she tells him she never wants to have sex with him it is a failed marriage and Tyrion tried to make best of it he could.

Before Tyrion kills Shae and Tywin he is mostly a good guy, much better than most. But yeah judge him after your dad sentences you to death when he knows you didn't kill your nephew and than  fucks someone you love.

[sweetsunray]

11 hours ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

This is not evidence of her being so warped by trauma that we can't trust anything she says or thinks anymore, but it also fair to say that it does sometimes affect her. 

Exactly! Great posts overall.

Just picking up on this tidbit, because it highlights some misconceptions about trauma:

• Oh, she's going through traumatizing abuse => she must be suffering Stockholm or PTSD. <=> Not necessarily. Not every hostage develops Stockholm. It's actually a very rare development within hostage situations, and occurs under specific circumstances of the abuser being intermittent rewarding or punishing the hostage or abuse victim.
• Heaping symptoms of Stockholm and PTSD together. Two entirely different issues. One is an emotional empathic response while living in a situation where a victim's survival depends on an abuser. The second is a POST-symptomatic response in dealing with traumatic situations of the PAST that the person was unable to deal with at the time of the trauma
• If someone isn't suffering from Stockholm or PTSD their emotional responses aren't warped, and aren't affected by trauma or abuse at the time of the trauma <=> Wrong!  

Almost everyone can be manipulated into feeling ashamed of something, even if they're not the ones doing anything wrong. It's called "sliming". You have some dinner meeting with friends, but one of the acquaintances makes some horrible, total shameless remark to the servile waitress. What happens? Everybody else around the table feels uncomfortable and ashamed of what that acquaintance just did or said. No big trauma, no hostage situation, no threat of rape, no forced marriage... But in that moment everybody, except for the shameless acquaintance, feels shame and embarrassment just because they're associated to this acquaintance, but not because they actually did anything wrong. It's THAT easy for people to feel ashamed.

Most people do not want to hurt someone's feelings, be rude or impolite. It's so ingrained in us, that it's the first thing that someone who's evil minded uses against people to manipulate them. Just a famous movie example: the serial child rapist killer George Harvey in the Lovely Bones uses it all the time to catch his prey. This is how he operates: "I'm being kind and polite by showing you my secret underground camp and giving you a coca cola. So, the polite thing to do is for you to stay longer, drink what I offered you. Your instincts telling you to run are rude." And once the prey is slimed into doing what he wants through feelings of shame "Oh, that was unfeeling of me," he murders them. The movie ends with him trying to do the same thing to a young woman at a parking lot, over a cigarette. Oh, and she is rude to him. But she lives, and he in fact accidentally dies. While it's a fictional telling of the tactics a serial killer employ it is indeed based on the most common trick of manipulation used by psychopaths.

The marriage scene is similar to the Lovely Bones tactic: Tyrion was "polite and offered her a coca cola" when he went to talk to her about the upcoming forced marriage. He's framing the whole thing as Sansa choosing him over Lancel, while she has no freedom to choose really. It's a false choice. And Sansa knows it, but she decides to make no further scene and avoid violence (what Cersei threatened her with). On top of it, he tries to play the sympathy card - "I didn't ask for this marriage either". Heck he's trying to make it look as if he's as much a victim as she is, which is utter bullshit.

So, he managed to lure her into going to the private personal sept of the Red Keep as docile as possible. The only way that Sansa can "stand up" for herself is by physically remaining to stand. Yes, that is rude of her, but in the situation she was forced in by the Lannisters and manipulated by Tyrion, that's the last remaining thing for her. In this instance, she has a right to be rude, as much as any prey has a right to be rude to a would-be hunter.

How shameless the Lannisters truly are we can deduct from the fact that none of the witnesses is actually shocked or embarrassed by Sansa's "rude" behavior. No, they delight in it. They think it hilarious. When originally Sansa was the butt of the joke "hihihihi, we're fooling her by not telling her she's having this dress maid to be married to the Imp until the very last minute", the joke is now on Tyrion (who thought to win himself a bride that easily by falsely reframing himself as an innocent, sympathizer). And his resentment and anger over it towards Sansa is exactly like the serial killer's in the Lovely Bones: I was nice to you, offered you a coke/cigarette, and now you're being rude to me? How dare you!   

Sansa's not like the punk girl giving the finger to George in the Lovely Bones. She's like 14 year old Susie who tried to excuse herself politely, but in the end was shamed by George into complying to be polite.

Sansa's armor is her courtesy, but it's also her trap. When she feels ashamed of embarrassing Tyrion, her ingrained "be polite, don't be rude" is triggered. There's no denying that she feels the shame. It's in the text. But we as readers are free to determine for ourselves that there's no shame in being rude to lions who don't care one bit about her feelings, and Tyrion may be 'kind' but it's a selfish kindness. He's not kind out of empathy or actual sympathy, but purely for appearances. He uses it to feel smug over the rest of his family and he feels entitled of deserving a plaque and reward for it. 

[sweetsunray]

2 hours ago, Tygett Lannister said:

He clearly doesn't want marriage to happen, other ways he wouldn't tell her about Lancel.

Bullshit. Telling about Lancel mere minutes before the marriage is not giving Sansa a choice at all. If Tyrion truly did not want that marriage to happen, he would have informed Sansa about it weeks before and use some of his contacts to smuggle her out of the Red Keep. At the very least, he would have told Tywin to leave the honor to Lancel to force-marriage her from his sickbed. Tyrion's like a predator here giving the prey a lollipop to tell himself - see I was being kind to her.

[Tygett Lannister]

1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

Bullshit. Telling about Lancel mere minutes before the marriage is not giving Sansa a choice at all. If Tyrion truly did not want that marriage to happen, he would have informed Sansa about it weeks before and use some of his contacts to smuggle her out of the Red Keep. At the very least, he would have told Tywin to leave the honor to Lancel to force-marriage her from his sickbed. Tyrion's like a predator here giving the prey a lollipop to tell himself - see I was being kind to her.

She can say I want Lancel and Tyrion doesn't marries him. You think he will say just kidding you have to marry me.

[Springwatch]

40 minutes ago, Tygett Lannister said:

She can say I want Lancel and Tyrion doesn't marries him. You think he will say just kidding you have to marry me.

It might be a genuine offer. But I can't imagine Tywin gifting Sansa and Winterfell to a weakling like Lancel who isn't capable of holding either. (If Lancel was ever mentioned, I think it was to manipulate Tyrion, not ever a serious intent.)

And I can't imagine Cersei allowing Tyrion to make the decision to switch grooms. She doesn't like him, but she sees Sansa as her property, and Tyrion doesn't get to overturn the marriage Cersei has consented to.

Tyrion must know all this.

[Tygett Lannister]

3 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

It might be a genuine offer. But I can't imagine Tywin gifting Sansa and Winterfell to a weakling like Lancel who isn't capable of holding either.

And I can't imagine Cersei allowing Tyrion to make the decision to switch grooms. She doesn't like him, but she sees Sansa as her property, and Tyrion doesn't get to overturn the marriage Cersei has consented to.

Tyrion must know all this.

Tywin is the big boy here, what Cersei wants is irrelevant. I don't believe any Lannister or Tyrell could hold Winterfell and North just because he is married to Sansa. I see Karstarks being crowned over a lady raised in new way married to their biggest enemy.

[sweetsunray]

3 hours ago, Tygett Lannister said:

She can say I want Lancel and Tyrion doesn't marries him. You think he will say just kidding you have to marry me.

She could have said that, but it's still a farce and empty gesture by Tyrion, because of the timing of it, and him preferring himself over Lancel when Tywin and Kevan drop the name. She was just threatened by Cersei with kingsguard to be dragged in front of the altar to be married to Tyrion. Tyrion knew that Sansa's wishes in this were of nobody's concern, and they were not of his own concern either or he would have acted differently in the weeks prior and to Tywin. It was a meaningless gesture to pacify Sansa enough, and nothing more than that.

Tyrion didn't mean it, nor did he expect Sansa to take that offer. He meant it insofar he meant his offer to not bed her if she didn't want to, and revealed his surprise (and in thoughts his resentment) over Sansa saying "What if I never want it?" Tyrion did not expect the latter response from her, and in fact later does think that she'd do her duty if he made her.

His "empty gesture" trick of mentioning Lancel worked, his "I won't touch you unless you want it" didn't work.

2 hours ago, Tygett Lannister said:

Tywin is the big boy here, what Cersei wants is irrelevant.

She is the queen regent, and Joffrey wanted the farce of seeing Sansa wed to Tyrion, and Tywin wanted it to be Tyrion. There was no chance in hell that Tywin, Joffrey and Cersei would delay and have Lencel wed Sansa instead.

2 hours ago, Tygett Lannister said:

I don't believe any Lannister or Tyrell could hold Winterfell and North just because he is married to Sansa. I see Karstarks being crowned over a lady raised in new way married to their biggest enemy.

What you believe the North would accept is irrelevant to what Tywin and Tyrion believed they could do.

The Karstarks are far removed from the Stark line, several hundred years back, and nobody tried to rally behind them at all. If that were possible, you'd think the Karstarks wouldn't be collaborating with the Dreadfort and rallying an army of Northerners. Even a bastard like Ramsay married to "Arya" Stark was enough for the Northerners to weigh and choose carefully and bide their time.

[A Ghost of Someone]

Sansa's offspring would be what Tywin would hold the North for House Lannister. Tywin knew he would overthrow the Weakened Boltons in time, if the Northerners did not do it for him. He expected the Bolton and the North to rid the Iron Born, be weakened down, then the Northerners go after the Boltons. They knew Fake Arya was no Stark. Sansa was the vessel to usurpation for their house. similar to Elizabeth of York for House Tudor. The Tudors were unacceptable by themselves but through Elizabeth of york, the offspring might be, especially if we kill off her family, cousins, anyone with a better claim than her.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

19 hours ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

also have to take into account that Sansa has been positively reinforced her entire life to be a people pleaser as well as it being something she's naturally inclined to.  She's known to be the most obedient child of all the kids.  She's been taught to look for the approval or disapproval of others and adjust herself accordingly.  She feels great anxiety about displeasing men especially.  So it doesn't shock me that when she sees Tyrion's face she immediately adjusts herself for him.  It's almost an automatic response for her to feel bad and blame herself when men are upset.  This doesn't mean that the men are upset for having been truly wronged.  Sometimes they're just self-centered assholes.  Let me just repeat this because I think it's really important:

I agree Sansa is affected by her treatment & it definetely seems to lower her self esteem. I think that coupled with the fact that she thought life was a fairy tale, once she figures out the life she has been thrust into is the farthest thing from it makes her feel as if she is stupid. She had to grow up & loose her naivety fast & all in all she does it well. My point is I agree she doesn't always trust her own judgment but surely she is the only one that can tell us truly how she feels. She thinks Tyrion was kind to her. Maybe that was only because he was kinder than the other Lannisters. As for the bolded part I don't remember reading anything that led me to believe she was particularly anxious about displeasing men - she doesn't want to displease anyone. 

 

19 hours ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

No marriages weren't based on love, but it didn't mean they wanted their daughters married to monsters either.  Brienne's father did not force her to marry even though he could have.  Ned intended on Sansa's wedding taking place when she was older.  We see this type of mercenary approach to marriage happening with the really cold, shitty parents that see their children as pawns, but it isn't meant to be taken as typical behavior.          

As cruel as Tywin is I don't think he was trying to marry Sansa to a "monster" & I don't think Tyrion is a monster any more or less than a lot of characters in the book. He was truly trying to reward Tyrion. At any rate there is no reason for Tywin to object to the marrigae as Sansa is beautiful & Tywin knows (believes) Sansa will soon be heir to WF. It's a great political match for Tywin to make especially during this war. He would be stupid to not make it. 

As far as children being used as pawns - that's exactly what almost every marriage we see in Planetos does. Marriage pacts are made by the parents to be able to gain lands, riches, lordships, etc. If that isn't using them as pawns I don't know what is. Tyrion being ugly & malformed is not what made the marriage cruel. The marriage was cruel because it was made without Sansa's consent & into a family that had killed her father & was holding her hostage. My point being it would have been no different had she been married to Lancel. 

19 hours ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

While Tyrion doesn't tell her she's stupid directly, he definitely speaks to her in a condescending way many times and we know from his internal thoughts that he doesn't think highly of her intelligence.  Talking down to someone is neither respectful or kind.  Especially when he has demonstrated over and over he is acting for a pro-Lannister agenda and a Lannister victory.  He's entirely clueless about truly empathizing with her even when they first reunite at Joffrey's name day tourney:

This is just silly. I don't read this as Tyrion trying to be condescending in any way. He is very respectful & is trying to offer his condolences. Much the same way someone says "God has a plan" or something of that nature when a loved one dies. 

 

19 hours ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

Oh yeah... he never wanted this marriage! And he is fully aware of the hints Tywin is dropping, he's just choosing not to ask questions.  He knows Sansa's family is in danger.  He knows the Westerlings and Spicers are set to betray them.  He's framing the upcoming murder of her family as the "reasons of state" that it was necessary to keep the wedding secret from Sansa.  That is definitely condescending, knowingly deceitful, manipulative, and completely selfish.  Tyrion is presenting himself to Sansa as the good guy and just an innocent bystander to his family's machinations.  Bullshit!  He makes it clear she is going to marry a Lannister one way or another.  There's no real choice for Sansa here.  We can't in good conscience call this kindness to her.  Especially when she thinks right before calling him "kind" she remembers Tyrell or Lannister they only want her for her claim.  Again, she called it correctly no matter how Tyrion is spinning it.  So Tyrion may never have hit her or called her names, but he was a participant.  He was actively working to uphold her abusers in power, he willingly participated in the forced marriage, and she knows the real reason why no matter what he is saying to her.  Then we get to the wedding night:

He has known as well as everyone else that Sansa's family is in danger. Sansa knows it as well, there is nothing she or Tyrion can do about it. I'm not sure he knew about the RW at any rate. I didn't know that was what was planned after reading this passage so there really is no reason to assume Tyrion knew Tywin planned on slaughtering Robb & compant at a wedding. I assumed, like possibly Tyrion assumed, that Tywin was speaking of winning the war against the Starks. Even IF he knew what good would it have done him or Sansa to share that info with her? 

You're right, she has no choice, she is going to be forced to marry a Lannister any which way it goes but Tyrion is not the one forcing it & giving her the option of him or Lancel, the only option he is capable of offering her, is a kindness. He can't stop her from having to marry another Lannister but he can refuse to marry her if she prefers Lancel. In all fairness she wouldn't have said it if she did prefer Lancel because she probably assumed (& rightfully so) that it was some trick. 

Yes the real reason why is for her claim. Which would be the same reason she would be married to anyone at this point - for political gain. This isn't something specific to Tyrell's or Lannisters. What kind of idiot would Tywin have to be to NOT marry Sansa to a Lannister? & if Tyrion participated in trying to help Sansa escape or trying to end the marriage all together not only would his own life be at stake but he would also be complicit in the down fall of his own house. He would have to be a fool to do that. He is trying to make the best of a bad situation - yes a bad situation his family caused & at least aesthetically he is getting the better end of the deal but all the more reason for him to proceed with it. Why on earth would Tyrion put Sansa's survival before his own? 

I have very mixed feelings about the wedding night. I have a hard time viewing it due to my 21st century glasses. At least I admit it though. If we take Sansa's age out of the equation - which by Planetos standards we should -  then Tyrion did nothing wrong. He tried to consumate his marriage & upon realizing Sansa was scared shitless decided not to, not only that night, but ever if & until she gives consent. The fact that he reacts negatively to her asking "and if I never want to?" Doesn't indicate Tyrion is selfish & trying to play the victim or make Sansa feel guilty at all. Tyrion is hurt. He is hurt because the only woman who could ever see past his physical deformities & love him for who he is instead of how he looks was gang raped & taken from him. If I'm putting myself in Tyrion's shoes I'm thinking "Damn, I'm so ugly this girl, my wife, cannot for see a future where she could EVER get to know me & think of me kindly enough to allow me to consumate our marriage & fulfill my duty." What a mind fuck. That would cut deep especially when you know she was head over heels for Joffrey, the real monster, even after he was cruel to her. Maybe Sansa doesn't ever see a future where she will allow Tyrion to consumate their marriage because he is a Lannister & part of the family that has killed her father, waring with her brother, etc - which is completely understandable but that isn't what I gathered from the text & it isn't how Tyrion takes it. 

The biggest issue I have with all the Tyrion hate especially in regards to Sansa is Sansa has done much & more to help the downfall of her own house but everyone says well she was young & naive, learned her lesson, etc - I am one of the people that say that but on the other hand everything Tyrion does or allows to happen is because he is a vicious, greedy, perverse, demon monkey. Anything his family has done, beknowst or not to Tyrion, has been labeled his fault for not stopping it even though he could not have stopped it anymore than Sansa could have. It is never stated by Tyrion haters that sometimes he is the victim. Never. Not when his father mistreat him, not when his sister mistreat him, not when his brother mistreat him, not when he is held captive & taken to trial TWICE for things he didn't do, & not when he is sentenced to die for something he didn't do. Any time he does try to do something good or stop his vile family (i.e. slapping Joffrey) he is labeled stupid for striking the prince & deserving of every mistreatment he gets. This makes it very hard for me to be persuaded by arguments when they are so one sided. Has Tyrion does wrong  & bad things? Absolutely. Has he done good right things? Absolutely. It's when someone can only see the bad, wrong things & then lays the blame for  things out of his control at his feet & tries to twist his good or kind deeds into only being done for some hidden, ulterior, devilish motive that it gets to where there is no point in discussing it. 

 

[Tygett Lannister]

3 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

She could have said that, but it's still a farce and empty gesture by Tyrion, because of the timing of it, and him preferring himself over Lancel when Tywin and Kevan drop the name. She was just threatened by Cersei with kingsguard to be dragged in front of the altar to be married to Tyrion. Tyrion knew that Sansa's wishes in this were of nobody's concern, and they were not of his own concern either or he would have acted differently in the weeks prior and to Tywin. It was a meaningless gesture to pacify Sansa enough, and nothing more than that.

Tyrion didn't mean it, nor did he expect Sansa to take that offer. He meant it insofar he meant his offer to not bed her if she didn't want to, and revealed his surprise (and in thoughts his resentment) over Sansa saying "What if I never want it?" Tyrion did not expect the latter response from her, and in fact later does think that she'd do her duty if he made her.

His "empty gesture" trick of mentioning Lancel worked, his "I won't touch you unless you want it" didn't work.

She is the queen regent, and Joffrey wanted the farce of seeing Sansa wed to Tyrion, and Tywin wanted it to be Tyrion. There was no chance in hell that Tywin, Joffrey and Cersei would delay and have Lencel wed Sansa instead.

What you believe the North would accept is irrelevant to what Tywin and Tyrion believed they could do.

The Karstarks are far removed from the Stark line, several hundred years back, and nobody tried to rally behind them at all. If that were possible, you'd think the Karstarks wouldn't be collaborating with the Dreadfort and rallying an army of Northerners. Even a bastard like Ramsay married to "Arya" Stark was enough for the Northerners to weigh and choose carefully and bide their time.

What exactly do you imagen Tyrion says after Sansa says I would rather marry Lancel. Ey joke. There is pretty high chance she would say that and if he truly wanted to marry her he would have brought it up. He would just say he was forced by his father.

Yes he thinks she would do her duty if he made her, than why doesn't he if he is such a pedophile, land greedy monster?

Cersei is queen regent, yet she is forced by Tywin to marry Willas (which doesn't happens because Tywin does), Tywin is clear power over her. King's hand who is by rank lower than regent but Tywin is also head of house Lannister which means he can command Cersei. Tywin makes it clear he doesn't wants Cersei's stupidity to ruin anything else and do her genius politics. There is no such hurry, Lancel can be called and told he was to marry Sansa and he would agree and wedding could be announced or even executed.

I think Tywin and Tyrion both knew Lannisters could not hold the North, and why would they want it? Land of different people that has to deal with Wildlings, is poor and huge = hard to control. Yet they are the closest thing to Starks, not to mention Skaigosi have Rickon and Manderyls know about that so Sansa is not heir. And Tywin's solution was to grant North to Bolton.

[TheSeason]

Sansa didn't just "see Tyrion's penis" in that episode like some people are claiming, like she just happened to walk in on him while he was changing. Sansa was forcibly married. Sansa was nearly raped. Sansa fully expected to be raped (having internalized the societal customs of marital rape, by which a woman relinquishes her "right to say no" to her husband, that were instilled in her by her mother, father, and septa). Sansa tried not to resist her rape (like she imagines good girls are supposed to do once they're married, whether they had any say in the marriage or not), but her revulsion at what Tyrion was doing to her showed through anyway. As it should have. This is a traumatic event for any female, whether she is adult or child, and we should not discount the depth of the trauma she endured because--they were married and he had a "right" to rape her, but didn't, for which he pats himself on the back and touts his own moral virtues (never mind the brutality of what he has just done exposing his moral failings). Being almost-raped is just as traumatic for a woman as being raped. She has been stripped of her rights, her dignity, her power, her voice, her bodily integrity... all when Tyrion forced her to disrobe, disrobed himself, touched her against her will, exposed his erect penis to her, and tried to work up the nerve to go through with her rape (like daddy said so). 

No, we should not take Sansa's word for it that Tyrion was "Kind?" Even she really isn't certain. Is it "kind" not to rape the child-bride you forcibly wed in hopes of exterminating her family and stealing her birthright? No. No, it's not "kind" at all. It's barely skirting the edge of "basic human decency" (because he still forcibly married someone he considered a child, exposed himself and touched her in preparation to rape her, and then had the audacity to pat himself on the back for not raping her like his father told him to, and hold it against her that she was reviled by and did not sexually want him). Sansa is clearly internalizing all the abuses she suffered. Tyrion might "appear" kind(er) than the other Lannisters--because he doesn't lop off her father's head and murder everyone she's ever known, strike her, force other people to strike her, strip her naked in public (although in the bedchamber, sure!), call her stupid and other names to belittle her (although he's plenty condescending), charge people to rape her, etc. He still holds her hostage (despite promises to release her, a truce which he "breaks" as soon as he is able, sending people to forcibly retrieve his brother so he wouldn't have to give up his hostage anyway), upholds her (physical and verbal) abusers in power, forcibly marries her, exposes himself, touches her against her will, and nearly rapes her, holding it against her when she shows how unwilling she is to be raped by him in their "marriage bed." None of these things fall within the realm of "kindness" and should not be lumped in with other "good deeds" he might have done. 

Tyrion is fully capable of rape. He's done it at least three times already--once with the "wife" he claimed to "love" (and proceeded to victim blame, as if she deserved to be gang-raped for being a gold-digger and a whore; and when he learns that she was "innocent" all along, he still proceeds to call her a whore--despite murdering his father for the same--and only seeks her out as means to alleviate his own guilt and convince himself that he suffered just as much as she did). I don't doubt that he eventually could have raped Sansa (giving him enough time, he'd either get drunk enough or angry enough or feel humiliated enough to do it), his second child-bride (in his bigamist marriage, too). Tyrion enjoys raping women--to take back the power in a relationship and satisfy his insecurities and feelings of humiliation, same as his father--and fantasizes about doing it. And Tyrion feels plenty humiliated by Sansa (and for her sake). 

He wants to rape Cersei. He could have scourged Tommen, or worse, even, who some have argued should be added to his list of "good deeds" or positive relationships! 

Quote

Tyrion I, Storm

"They tied her to a post in the yard and scourged her, then shoved her out the gate naked and bloody."

She was learning to read, Tyrion thought, absurdly. Across his face the scar stretched tight, and for a moment it felt as though his head would burst with rage. Alayaya was a whore, true enough, but a sweeter, braver, more innocent girl he had seldom met. Tyrion had never touched her; she had been no more than a veil, to hide Shae. In his carelessness, he had never thought what the role might cost her. "I promised my sister I would treat Tommen as she treated Alayaya," he remembered aloud. He felt as though he might retch. "How can I scourge an eight-year-old boy?" But if I don't, Cersei wins.

"You don't have Tommen," Bronn said bluntly. "Once she learned that Ironhand was dead, the queen sent the Kettleblacks after him, and no one at Rosby had the balls to say them nay."

Another blow; yet a relief as well, he must admit it. He was fond of Tommen. "The Kettleblacks were supposed to be ours," he reminded Bronn with more than a touch of irritation.

***

"To save a whore's virtue, you threatened your own House, your own kin? Is that the way of it?"

"You were the one who taught me that a good threat is often more telling than a blow. Not that Joffrey hasn't tempted me sore a few hundred times. If you're so anxious to whip people, start with him. But Tommen . . . why would I harm Tommen? He's a good lad, and mine own blood."

"As was your mother." Lord Tywin rose abruptly, to tower over his dwarf son. "Go back to your bed, Tyrion, and speak to me no more of your rights to Casterly Rock. You shall have your reward, but it shall be one I deem appropriate to your service and station. And make no mistake—this was the last time I will suffer you to bring shame onto House Lannister. You are done with whores. The next one I find in your bed, I'll hang."

Tyrion is lying to himself here when he says he could not have harmed Tommen (whipped him or worse). He would have done it. Because "If [he didn't], Cersei wins," and he could not stand to lose to Cersei in this (who he despises so much he wants to rape her to bring her back down to size for making him feel small and unloved and humiliated all throughout his life). That's why it was a "relief" that he did not have possession of Tommen any longer. If he had, he would have talked himself into going through with it (just as he will eventually work up the courage to rape Sansa, provided she did not escape from him). Tyrion cannot stand to lose (especially not to Cersei) or to be humiliated (especially not by Cersei or Tywin), and he cannot stand the revulsion of women, in particular, so Sansa was caught in a lose-lose situation. With Tywin (who is just like Tyrion) urging him to be a man and rape Sansa, get her with child, and steal her birthright already because it's all he's going to get--no Casterly Rock!--all the pieces were in place for this rape to happen (just as Tyrion gave in to Tywin's urging to rape Tysha to avenge himself upon her and take back his power and restore the honor of House Lannister of Casterly Rock). 

As for Myrcella, he even briefly flirts with traveling to Dorne to use her as a pawn against her mother--to which Illyrio (of all people!) scolds him, wondering what he has against that sweet child, because "to queen her is to kill her," which Tyrion full-well knew as he considered the possibility. 

His "fondness" for these children is not what "spared" them in either of these moments of depravity. It was his impotence to do so (having lost possession of Tommen, having been shipped across the Narrow Sea far from Myrcella and having another avenue of vengeance dangled before him that was "easier" to walk). 

Quote

Tyrion IX, Storm

"To be sure, I have much to thank your sister for. If not for her accusation at the feast, it might well be you judging me instead of me judging you." The prince's eyes were dark with amusement. "Who knows more of poison than the Red Viper of Dorne, after all? Who has better reason to want to keep the Tyrells far from the crown? And with Joffrey in his grave, by Dornish law the Iron Throne should pass next to his sister Myrcella, who as it happens is betrothed to mine own nephew, thanks to you."

"Dornish law does not apply." Tyrion had been so ensnared in his own troubles that he'd never stopped to consider the succession. "My father will crown Tommen, count on that."

"He may indeed crown Tommen, here in King's Landing. Which is not to say that my brother may not crown Myrcella, down in Sunspear. Will your father make war on your niece on behalf of your nephew? Will your sister?" He gave a shrug. "Perhaps I should marry Queen Cersei after all, on the condition that she support her daughter over her son. Do you think she would?"

 

Tyrion X, Storm

"Plan on a lengthy visit." Prince Oberyn sipped his wine. "You and Doran have many matters of mutual interest to discuss. Music, trade, history, wine, the dwarf's penny . . . the laws of inheritance and succession. No doubt an uncle's counsel would be of benefit to Queen Myrcella in the trying times ahead."

If Varys had his little birds listening, Oberyn was giving them a ripe earful. "I believe I will have that cup of wine," said Tyrion. Queen Myrcella? It would have been more tempting if only he did have Sansa tucked beneath his cloak. If she declared for Myrcella over Tommen, would the north follow? What the Red Viper was hinting at was treason. Could Tyrion truly take up arms against Tommen, against his own father? Cersei would spit blood. It might be worth it for that alone.

"Do you recall the tale I told you of our first meeting, Imp?" Prince Oberyn asked, as the Bastard of Godsgrace knelt before him to fasten his greaves. "It was not for your tail alone that my sister and I came to Casterly Rock. We were on a quest of sorts. A quest that took us to Starfall, the Arbor, Oldtown, the Shield Islands, Crakehall, and finally Casterly Rock . . . but our true destination was marriage. Doran was betrothed to Lady Mellario of Norvos, so he had been left behind as castellan of Sunspear. My sister and I were yet unpromised.

 

Jaime IX, Storm

For an instant he could see confusion in her bright green eyes, and fear as well. Then rage replaced it. Cersei gathered herself together, got to her feet, straightened her skirts. "Was it your hand they hacked off in Harrenhal, or your manhood?" As she shook her head, her hair tumbled around her bare white shoulders. "I was a fool to come. You lacked the courage to avenge Joffrey, why would I think that you'd protect Tommen? Tell me, if the Imp had killed all three of your children, would that have made you wroth?"

"Tyrion is not going to harm Tommen or Myrcella. I am still not certain he killed Joffrey."

Her mouth twisted in anger. "How can you say that? After all his threats—"

 

Tyrion I, Dance

Belowdecks, there was neither night nor day. Tyrion marked time by the comings and goings of the cabin boy who brought the meals he did not eat. The boy always brought a brush and bucket too, to clean up. "Is this Dornish wine?" Tyrion asked him once, as he pulled a stopper from a skin. "It reminds me of a certain snake I knew. A droll fellow, till a mountain fell on him."

The cabin boy did not answer. He was an ugly boy, though admittedly more comely than a certain dwarf with half a nose and a scar from eye to chin. "Have I offended you?" Tyrion asked, as the boy was scrubbing. "Were you commanded not to talk to me? Or did some dwarf diddle your mother?" That went unanswered too. "Where are we sailing? Tell me that." Jaime had made mention of the Free Cities, but had never said which one. "Is it Braavos? Tyrosh? Myr?" Tyrion would sooner have gone to Dorne. Myrcella is older than Tommen, by Dornish law the Iron Throne is hers. I will help her claim her rights, as Prince Oberyn suggested.

Oberyn was dead, though, his head smashed to bloody ruin by the armored fist of Ser Gregor Clegane. And without the Red Viper to urge him on, would Doran Martell even consider such a chancy scheme? He might clap me in chains instead and hand me back to my sweet sister. The Wall might be safer. Old Bear Mormont said the Night's Watch had need of men like Tyrion. Mormont might be dead, though. By now Slynt may be the lord commander. That butcher's son was not like to have forgotten who sent him to the Wall. Do I really want to spend the rest of my life eating salt beef and porridge with murderers and thieves? Not that the rest of his life would last very long. Janos Slynt would see to that.

 

 

Tyrion I, Dance

"I have a niece in Sunspear, did I tell you? I could make rather a lot of mischief in Dorne with Myrcella. I could set my niece and nephew at war, wouldn't that be droll?" The washerwoman pinned up one of Illyrio's tunics, large enough to double as a sail. "I should be ashamed to think such evil thoughts, you're quite right. Better if I sought the Wall instead. All crimes are wiped clean when a man joins the Night's Watch, they say. Though I fear they would not let me keep you, sweetling. No women in the Watch, no sweet freckly wives to warm your bed at night, only cold winds, salted cod, and small beer. Do you think I might stand taller in black, my lady?" He filled his cup again. "What do you say? North or south? Shall I atone for old sins or make some new ones?"

***

"Shivering, I would think. It is warmer down in Dorne. Perhaps he should have sailed that way."

Tyrion was beginning to suspect that a certain freckled washerwoman knew more of the Common Speech than she pretended. "My niece Myrcella is in Dorne, as it happens. And I have half a mind to make her a queen."

Illyrio smiled as his serving men spooned out bowls of black cherries in sweet cream for them both. "What has this poor child done to you that you would wish her dead?"

"Even a kinslayer is not required to slay all his kin," said Tyrion, wounded. "Queen her, I said. Not kill her."

The cheesemonger spooned up cherries. "In Volantis they use a coin with a crown on one face and a death's-head on the other. Yet it is the same coin. To queen her is to kill her. Dorne might rise for Myrcella, but Dorne alone is not enough. If you are as clever as our friend insists, you know this."

Tyrion looked at the fat man with new interest. He is right on both counts. To queen her is to kill her. And I knew that. "Futile gestures are all that remain to me. This one would make my sister weep bitter tears, at least."

 

This is only a "flirtation," sure, but he's flirting with disaster, and Myrcella would suffer the consequences for his vile actions. It's not that he considered doing this at all that's so disgusting--it's that he considered doing it whilst fully understanding what the consequences would be for the niece he claims to be so "fond" of (perhaps even love). He's willing to make this "futile gesture" at the cost of Myrcella's life because it "would make [Cersei] weep bitter tears, at least," and that's the important part to him (not his fondness for Myrcella or Tommen, but "win[ning]" against Cersei. It appears Cersei (of all people!) actually does have a better understanding of just what her "vile" little brother is capable of (and Jaime deludes himself, despite being correct in Tyrion's innocence of Joffrey's poisoning) and is right to fear what shenanigans he might get up to as it concerns "avenging" himself against her (in particular). This is only in-part a self-fulfilling prophecy (of sorts). Cersei's been plenty vile and cruel to Tyrion too, which makes him equally vile and cruel in their competitive relationship--however, if Tyrion did not have these urges or was not capable of such vile and cruel deeds, it could become a bit of a non-starter (with Tyrion avoiding Cersei, or having to be pushed to extremes before being willing to fight back). It's that they're both vile, cruel people that makes their competition so brutal, dangerous, and deadly. 

 

As for the discussion about whether Tyrion was slut-shaming Cat or whether it was a "calculated move" on his part to disarm her. He was slut-shaming Cat, and he enjoyed it. No, he was not "required" to be "nice" to her, and yes, he was being victimized by her on paltry evidence, but no, that does not give him the right to slut-shame and humiliate her. That isn't what decent human beings do. 

There were plenty of ways to address the issue of Littlefinger (and whether or not Cat should trust his word) without degrading her in the process--which only serves to make her less inclined to trust him or listen to what he has to say, because, what woman holds in any regard the man who slut-shamed, humiliated, and degraded her? How does that make his defense more compelling? Tyrion slut-shamed Cat because he's an angry, egotistical, mean-spirited, smart-mouthed person who enjoys degrading others (especially women, and especially those who have injured his pride in some way). Everyone (just about) was offended by Tyrion's behavior on the High Road (excepting some of the seediest characters, like Bronn, but even like-minded, raper Marillion had the good sense to feign disgust), and one man was so outraged he wanted to slit Tyrion's throat for assaulting Lady Stark's honor that way. That hardly reads like a "calculated move" to undermine her position, and indeed there were only two things that succeeded at that--first, the discussion about the dagger, the actual evidence against him (not Catelyn Stark's "ripe breasts" and "sweet mouth" and "the heat between [her] legs," but the evidence that didn't make sense, as he argues) and the faithless, money-hungry nature of sellswords (Bronn, who defected because he couldn't expect "fair" wages from Catelyn Stark or to be taken into her service; if she paid him better, rather than thinking herself "above" him and "owed" his (and everyone's) services, he probably would not have defected, risking his life for gain, when he could get similar wages and treatment by serving Catelyn instead). 

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Tyrion IV, Game

Tyrion wrenched down Jyck's arm hurriedly, before he got them both hacked to pieces. "Where are your courtesies, Jyck? Our good hostess said no swords. Do as she asks." He forced a smile that must have looked as queasy as it felt. "You're making a sad mistake, Lady Stark. I had no part in any attack on your son. On my honor—"

"Lannister honor," was all she said. She held up her hands for all the room to see. "His dagger left these scars. The blade he sent to open my son's throat."

Tyrion felt the anger all around him, thick and smoky, fed by the deep cuts in the Stark woman's hands. "Kill him," hissed some drunken slattern from the back, and other voices took up the call, faster than he would have believed. Strangers all, friendly enough only a moment ago, and yet now they cried for his blood like hounds on a trail.

***

Tyrion Lannister seated himself on a rock. "By now our pursuit is likely racing across the Neck, chasing your lie up the kingsroad … assuming there is a pursuit, which is by no means certain. Oh, no doubt the word has reached my father … but my father does not love me overmuch, and I am not at all sure that he will bother to bestir himself." It was only half a lie; Lord Tywin Lannister cared not a fig for his deformed son, but he tolerated no slights on the honor of his House. "This is a cruel land, Lady Stark. You'll find no succor until you reach the Vale, and each mount you lose burdens the others all the more. Worse, you risk losing me. I am small, and not strong, and if I die, then what's the point?" That was no lie at all; Tyrion did not know how much longer he could endure this pace.

"It might be said that your death is the point, Lannister," Catelyn Stark replied.

"I think not," Tyrion said. "If you wanted me dead, you had only to say the word, and one of these staunch friends of yours would gladly have given me a red smile." He looked at Kurleket, but the man was too dim to taste the mockery.

"The Starks do not murder men in their beds."

"Nor do I," he said. "I tell you again, I had no part in the attempt to kill your son."

"The assassin was armed with your dagger."

Tyrion felt the heat rise in him. "It was not my dagger," he insisted. "How many times must I swear to that? Lady Stark, whatever you may believe of me, I am not a stupid man. Only a fool would arm a common footpad with his own blade."

Just for a moment, he thought he saw a flicker of doubt in her eyes, but what she said was, "Why would Petyr lie to me?"

"Why does a bear shit in the woods?" he demanded. "Because it is his nature. Lying comes as easily as breathing to a man like Littlefinger. You ought to know that, you of all people."

She took a step toward him, her face tight. "And what does that mean, Lannister?"

Tyrion cocked his head. "Why, every man at court has heard him tell how he took your maidenhead, my lady."

"That is a lie!" Catelyn Stark said.

"Oh, wicked little imp," Marillion said, shocked.

Kurleket drew his dirk, a vicious piece of black iron. "At your word, m'lady, I'll toss his lying tongue at your feet." His pig eyes were wet with excitement at the prospect.

Catelyn Stark stared at Tyrion with a coldness on her face such as he had never seen. "Petyr Baelish loved me once. He was only a boy. His passion was a tragedy for all of us, but it was real, and pure, and nothing to be made mock of. He wanted my hand. That is the truth of the matter. You are truly an evil man, Lannister."

"And you are truly a fool, Lady Stark. Littlefinger has never loved anyone but Littlefinger, and I promise you that it is not your hand that he boasts of, it's those ripe breasts of yours, and that sweet mouth, and the heat between your legs."

Kurleket grabbed a handful of hair and yanked his head back in a hard jerk, baring his throat. Tyrion felt the cold kiss of steel beneath his chin. "Shall I bleed him, my lady?"

"Kill me and the truth dies with me," Tyrion gasped.

"Let him talk," Catelyn Stark commanded.

Kurleket let go of Tyrion's hair, reluctantly.

Tyrion took a deep breath. "How did Littlefinger tell you I came by this dagger of his? Answer me that."

"You won it from him in a wager, during the tourney on Prince Joffrey's name day."

"When my brother Jaime was unhorsed by the Knight of Flowers, that was his story, no?"

"It was," she admitted. A line creased her brow.

"Riders!"

***

After that, things ran together. The dawn was full of shouts and screams and heavy with the scent of blood, and the world had turned to chaos. Arrows hissed past his ear and clattered off the rocks. He saw Bronn unhorsed, fighting with a sword in each hand. Tyrion kept on the fringes of the fight, sliding from rock to rock and darting out of the shadows to hew at the legs of passing horses. He found a wounded clansman and left him dead, helping himself to the man's halfhelm. It fit too snugly, but Tyrion was glad of any protection at all. Jyck was cut down from behind while he sliced at a man in front of him, and later Tyrion stumbled over Kurleket's body. The pig face had been smashed in with a mace, but Tyrion recognized the dirk as he plucked it from the man's dead fingers. He was sliding it through his belt when he heard a woman's scream.

Catelyn Stark was trapped against the stone face of the mountain with three men around her, one still mounted and the other two on foot. She had a dagger clutched awkwardly in her maimed hands, but her back was to the rock now and they had penned her on three sides. Let them have the bitch, Tyrion thought, and welcome to her, yet somehow he was moving. He caught the first man in the back of the knee before they even knew he was there, and the heavy axehead split flesh and bone like rotten wood. Logs that bleed, Tyrion thought inanely as the second man came for him. Tyrion ducked under his sword, lashed out with the axe, the man reeled backward … and Catelyn Stark stepped up behind him and opened his throat. The horseman remembered an urgent engagement elsewhere and galloped off suddenly.

As you see above, Tyrion nearly gets himself maimed or killed by slut-shaming Catelyn Stark (and even Marillion had the good sense to pretend to be disgusted by it!). It wasn't a calculated move. He nearly had her when talking about the dagger (the actual evidence against him, based on a lie) but lost her completely when he slut-shamed her with that explicit talk; until then, she had been willing to listen, even asked him "Why would Petyr lie to me?", but shuts down completely ("Catelyn Stark stared at Tyrion with a coldness on her face such as he had never seen...'His passion was a tragedy...real...pure...nothing to be made mock of. He wanted my hand... You are a truly evil man, Lannister.'") And does Tyrion have the good sense to back-track a bit and speak to his (conservative, duped) audience? No, he calls her a "fool" and doubles down ("it is not your hand that he boasts of, it's those ripe breasts of yours, and that sweet mouth, and the heat between your legs."), whereupon he really almost gets his throat slit. 

If it were a calculated move, instead of pure spite, he should have realized his gaff by her response to "Why, every man at court has heard him tell how he took your maidenhead, my lady." It was clear by her answer and body language (coldness...trust in Baelish's tragic, real, pure love and wholesome intentions for her... denouncing him as evil) that she wasn't aware of Baelish's duplicitousness and deviousness, and if he really wanted to convince her of something (trusting Baelish is a mistake), he shouldn't have proceeded to slut-shame her, whereupon he loses her interest, her trust, her goodwill, and her willingness to listen to or consider carefully his arguments. She continues to listen to him, but because he's lost her trust, she's no longer willing to act on any of his claims--and that's what he needed her to do. 

Tyrion does manage to regain some of that trust (not enough, ironically) by rescuing her from some of the Mountians of the Moon Clansmen as they fall upon them--but it could be argued that he really seems to luck out here. It's the danger of their travel that wins him more freedoms, even his own blade, and the ability to befriend Bronn, not his ability to persuade Cat of his innocence of the crime laid at his feet. I think that's a deliberate choice by the author, that Tyrion's smart mouth and offensive behavior toward women enables him to shoot himself in the foot time and time again, even when his life depends upon him keeping his mouth shut (it happens again with Alayaya and Shae, for example).

 

I know someone mentioned Allar Deem a few times, as putting forth Tyrion's notion of "justice," but I can only agree with you in part. Tyrion killed Allar Deem (who wielded the blade), having him thrown into the Narrow Sea to drown, but Allar Deem was only a minion of a minion (Jonos Slynt gave him the order, having gotten that order from Cersei). While Jonos Slynt was also dispatched to the Night's Watch, he did not lose his life for his crime the way his minion (Allar Deem) did, and this was really only a means to an end for Tyrion (who wanted Slynt removed from the Gold Cloaks--to replace him with his own man (Ironfist--although it can be argued Ironfist was more "Varys's man," who commended him to the office)!--and from the Small Council--where he'd be a pain in his behind--and from Cersei/Joffrey's pocket--where he would carry out orders Tyrion did not wish carried out, possibly against him!). Furthermore, Cersei, naturally, remains unscathed. 

What's worse--we only just witnessed Tyrion's outrage at his own legal mistreatment, his demand for a fair trail (instead of a kangaroo court), and his scolding of Cat, Lysa, and the lords of the Vale for their idea of "justice" (see quote), so it's pretty hypocritical of him to dispense "justice" in the same cruel and unfair manner as the people he's looking down on from that high horse of his. Allar Deem has the same rights as Tyrion--a fair trial with presentation of evidence and an impartial judge to hear his case, or, failing "the King's Justice," a right to Trial by Combat (whereupon he might be freed, similarly to the Hound, who freely admitted to slaughtering Micah to the Brotherhood without Banners when Arya accused him, but was found "not guilty" by "the gods"--strength alone--because Joffrey gave him the order and/or Micah ran--technically making him a fugitive from justice). Tyrion, furthermore, is meant to be an even higher official than either of the Tully sisters, Catelyn Stark or Lysa Arryn having authority solely within their domains, the North, the Vale of Arryn, and maybe (although I should think legally not!) in the Riverlands by the good will and mercy of their relatives. Tyrion is meant to be the acting Hand of the King (in Tywin's stead, and just like his father, who later condemns him in a mockery of a trial, and in other rulings, Tyrion proves to have no true concept of or concern for the dispensation of justice), held to a higher standard than lesser lords, the second most powerful person in the realm whom any-and-all can turn to uphold the King's Justice and the King's Peace, but he fails in this regard. 

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Lady Lysa rose from her weirwood throne. "I will not be made mock of. You have had your little jape, Imp. I trust you enjoyed it. Ser Vardis, take him back to the dungeon … but this time find him a smaller cell, with a floor more sharply sloped."

"Is this how justice is done in the Vale?" Tyrion roared, so loudly that Ser Vardis froze for an instant. "Does honor stop at the Bloody Gate? You accuse me of crimes, I deny them, so you throw me into an open cell to freeze and starve." He lifted his head, to give them all a good look at the bruises Mord had left on his face. "Where is the king's justice? Is the Eyrie not part of the Seven Kingdoms? I stand accused, you say. Very well. I demand a trial! Let me speak, and let my truth or falsehood be judged openly, in the sight of gods and men."

A low murmuring filled the High Hall. He had her, Tyrion knew. He was highborn, the son of the most powerful lord in the realm, the brother of the queen. He could not be denied a trial. Guardsmen in sky-blue cloaks had started toward Tyrion, but Ser Vardis bid them halt and looked to Lady Lysa.

This isn't real justice. It's a mockery of justice, but it serves to let Tyrion pat himself on the back and walk around the Red Keep like he's better than the other corrupt and brutal people of the court (like his sister, for one, without whom none of those children would have been murdered), and pretend to himself that he actually cares (about justice, about the realm, about the people--the "smallfolk") when his actions largely say otherwise. 

I don't think Allar Deem can be used to hold Tyrion up on a pedestal, as if he is somehow interested in the dispensation of justice or the moral virtue of the realm when he really isn't. As you see, within Tyrion's own thoughts ("He was highborn, the son of the most powerful lord in the realm, the brother of the queen. He could not be denied a trial."), his concept of "justice" is only "might makes right" (learned from Tywin, of course), and this proves his falseness as any representative or dispenser of justice or upholder of moral virtues. (He will later learn how "might makes right" in place of "justice" really feels once all his support and power--as highborn, as son of the most powerful lord in the realm, as brother of the queen (who all want him killed!)--is stripped away and he can no longer talk (or threaten) himself out of a kangaroo court, a dungeon, fetters, slanders and defamations, and condemnation and death.)

That said, I'm not arguing that Tyrion has no good deeds to his name (saving Cat's life and fighting alongside her on the High Road to the Eyrie is one such), just that he has fewer good deeds to his name than has been put forth. Some of these "good deeds" and "positive relationships" really boggled my mind, so I wanted to put forth my understanding of them. It would be silly--and unfair--for me to argue that Tyrion has no potential to do good, to be good, or to form positive relationships (his relationship with Jaime was one, until that soured; his relationship with his favorite uncle, Gerion, was definitely another, although we did not get to see that in the series; his relationship with Kevan might have been fairly positive--or at least neutral--until Kevan came to believe he poisoned Joffrey (likely only because Tywin believed it, and Kevan fails to think for himself where his brother is concerned); his relationships with Tommen and Myrcella might have been positive relationships if he hadn't ruined them, even if neither Tommen nor Myrcella are aware of just how much danger they were in, or how cruel their uncle could be (to them)). I'm sure there have been others (these are just off the top of my head). But what stands out to me is that Tyrion is self-destruction and almost-always poisons his relationships in some way (Jaime, Tommen, Myrcella, Tysha, Shae--although I would consider that solely a business relationship he ruined by presuming upon her for a romantic relationship, thereby taking back or withholding payment as means to keep her financially dependent upon him; he even managed to ruin the "one chance" his father was willing to give him to prove himself worthy, capable, smart, competent, loyal, and an asset to House Lannister, having entrusted him with "the dynasty" he was trying to build! That could have been the "start" of a "more positive" relationship with Tywin, although it would not run as deep as he hoped it would (love, admiration), and he blew that by threatening House Lannister--Tommen--endangering its future, establishing a whore as his mistress (the one thing his father asked him to sacrifice--and with good reason, it turns out!), and "ruining" his business relationship with the Queen Regent--she was willing to work with him to get Jaime back, as bizarre as that seems (she was that desperate), and keep Joffrey under control, but he began competing with her and undermining her authority from the start; a fine way to ruin a business relationship, though they'd never have a more meaningful relationship, each despising--and fearing--the other.). I think this is a deliberate choice by the author, as well as Tyrion's obliviousness to his self-destructive and poisonous behavior, because if he were fully aware of it (as in Dance), he'd be far less likeable (and Martin needs him to be likeable). 

Tyrion has good qualities alongside the bad, though. He's intelligent (if only he could focus that intelligence properly and not become sidetracked by delusional relationships--as with Shae--or competitive vindictiveness--as with Cersei), funny (when not being mean-spirited), sometimes charming, and he does at times go out of his way to be kind or friendly (he goes out of his way to befriend Jon Snow, for instance, at the start of Game; the gift he gives to Bran is more a favor to Jon Snow* and if he had deigned to stay at Winterfell after giving it, he might have been able to win over Robb, too, and get to the bottom of his bizarre--from his PoV--unwelcome.). Tyrion is a compelling personality, and persuasive when he puts his mind to it (I just wish it were more often geared toward the good than to deviousness). He could also prove to be a capable politician (if he'd focus and learn to set aside his differences, compromise, and work with people he hates--these things trip him up in his efforts as Hand).  I do not like his relationships with or thoughts about women, his rapes, attempted rapes, and rape fantasies, and his misogyny, and cannot say anything good about any of his relationships there (Tysha, Shae, Alayaya, Sansa, or even Penny); Tyrion thinks he's unlovable, and it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy in his approach to women, which makes him unlovable, thereby distorting for the worse his cycle of abuses. 

*Going back to Cat on the High Road... I do wonder why Tyrion did not talk to her about the saddle, as that, more than slut-shaming her, would make her stop to listen (a kindness to her favorite child), whereupon they could discuss the dagger and Littlefinger's other lies (his claims to have bedded her, although that is more slut-shaming vengeance than an outright lie, as he really thinks he did bed her). 

 

 

It really doesn't matter if we as readers have "modern" or "21st century" views. No one can completely divorce themselves from the context of their moral upbringing, nor should they try. Why should a reader permit a fictional character or society to dictate what they think is moral or amoral, right or wrong, good or evil? In every work of fiction, it is for the reader to determine their moral standards and whether the fictional characters meet or fail to meet them. Readers are meant to judge, characters are meant to be judged. Yes, by our own standards. 

It's all the same as when we judge people in other countries or time periods by what they did and failed to do. Nor do I have a problem with the people of a future time period judging me by their moral standards. That's their prerogative, too. It's silly to think that one must judge another by the other's moral standards--Dany, for example, had no problem judging the slavers of Slaver's Bay for their actions and by her own moral standards (slavery is morally wrong, even if it is legal); why should I judge Dany by her own moral standards? By that logic, all I can do is agree with her every action. I don't. Dany, in her self-righteousness, made a mess of Slaver's Bay, caused untold suffering, and committed quite a few crimes and war crimes herself, as well as failing to live up to her own high moral standards. There were also times she took into account her faults and failures, tried to make amends, tried to bring peace... It's also a bit like gluing back together the vase she shattered (although I'm not confident she'll continue trying), but she did make the effort. Taking into account someone else's moral bar doesn't mean I must have to lower mine to account for it (their failings and faults). If someone does something you find monstrous, you should never be afraid or reluctant to denounce it monstrous. That silence borders on complicity (in the real world), and permits people to get away with their wrongs. It's not good for anyone to bend over backwards to accommodate someone else's moral failings. 

That said, as far as removing Sansa's age from the equation because it's acceptable in or common practice in Westeros... We shouldn't really. In Westeros Sansa becomes an adult at age sixteen, not when she reaches menarche. Even in Westeros she is considered a child, and therefore a child-bride, and certain exceptions (e.g. consummation) should be made for child-brides (or bridegrooms) by any guardian or spouse (who are supposed to act for the child's best interest and welfare). Just because the concerned parties--the adults, "guardians" (captors), and "spouse" (another captor)--make exceptions for their own political expediency and welfare ahead of Sansa's (they being the ones with all the power) does not mean we should make further exceptions for them (excusing their amorality, abuses, and bad behavior), as might does not make right, as the villains in this event would have us believe. We all know when something is right or wrong, whether or not someone else (the characters, society, customs or laws, in this instance) tells us so. 

[Dorian Martell's son]

On 6/27/2017 at 11:39 AM, Sigella said:

Yeah I'm up for a Tyrion-roast.

Starting with the obvious, I hate him looking like some hideous monster from a Grim fairytale. Sorry. Dressed-up-hideous-monster-from-a-Grim-fairytale.

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Prefer the show Tyrion who at least has some redeeming features, and doesn't dress quite as flamboyant..

Beyond aesthetic regrets, why oh why does he have to say such awful things to people like always? I fully expect his first words to Dany will be "where do whores go?". Like, I say offensive stuff too but I feel bad about it while he just doesn't. He only regrets when it gets him in trouble. He never regrets making people feel uncomfortable or hurting their feelings or such.

 

Really wish he had a healthier view on women. Really wish he'd be morally above sleeping with slaves (Illyrios manse). 

 

Really hope Sweetrobin and the moon-door will have their way with him.

It's cool, lots of folks hate little people and wish they were dead